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cresshead
11-12-2003, 08:14 AM
...okay...hold on!....i;m not trying to say that other video tutorial vendors arn't up to it or whatever but i'd really like to see some dvd's from newtek itself creating tutorials on lightwave 8 and books too...

over at the "other" 3ds program i use [*ax or you could spell it ma*......] they have "courseware" in book and dvd form in addition to online "subsription" e-learning as well.

newtek could do well to earn some extra cash with a courseware on lightwave 8.

and we'd get some sort of "standard" way to learn lightwave.

steve g

cresshead
11-12-2003, 08:38 AM
also note that *aya or may* also have courseware and you see that their perception as an app is pretty good for the new users as they can learn from the people who make the app rather than the hit n miss approach of some books and videos that are out for 3d programs such as lightwave, max, maya etc...

there are some excellent ones done third party but maybe if newtek had their own line that was in addition to the reference manual and covered similar things to the discreet courseware
newtek would have a great well informed userbase and also earn extra cash along the way.

such topics could be

foundation courseware in lightwave 8
advanced courseware for lightwave 8
game development courseware for lightwave 8
lighting advanced courseware for lightwave 8
special fx advanced courseware for lightwave 8
character design advanced courseware for lightwave 8
visualation product design advanced courseware for lightwave 8
interior/exterior design and rendering advanced courseware for lightwave 8

such tings are already out for other apps and their books are for each advanced courseware about 100 pages long with a cdrom with the content on it and costs about 30 each

the advanced courseware for combustion is 360 pages with 32 lessons and a cdrom and costs about 75 for it.

just examples for you...

could be a good idea yes?

badllarma
11-12-2003, 08:52 AM
Dam fine idea there cresshead, if people like Straton can delivery all those free little tuts over a period of a few weeks DVD's from the makers would be a real benfit to us users.

And from NT point of view what a better way of keeping the cash flowing in than release a series of DVD's. I know Proton and the rest of the crowd will be very, very busy at present but once LW 8 has had it's release if you can get the like of Proton and Deuce on sets of DVD's showing the users the new features etc. And maybe a little download avalible set for the .1 updates would be really cool.

Maybe an extras section could be little sets of interviews with other staff at Newtek (some of the coders and related people) who are all workling dam hard but the users never here about. Or interviews with people at the likes of Digital Domain on how they use Lightwave within there pipe line of how they have the interface set up, Area 51 on some more of their work or Joe Blogs studios in Timbuck 2 who are now using Lightwave 8 for x project.
all of which I'm sure every one would find something of intrest on it.

I mean how hard is it to put together tutorials for the talent Newtek have then have a walk with a DV cam and have a chat to a few people? Ok getting in the doors of DD may be very time limited but extreamly intresting, to the users of Lightwave and some great PR for them of course. :D

nixx
11-12-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by badllarma

I mean how hard is it to put together tutorials for the talent Newtek have then have a walk with a DV cam and have a chat to a few people? Ok getting in the doors of DD may be very time limited but extreamly intresting, to the users of Lightwave and some great PR for them of course. :D

Very well put - remember, Alias|Wavefront (now just Alias) has been doing this very thing with May* or *aya ;) showreels every year, and it's proven to be a very successful way of product promotion. Just think, there are still lots of people who think that LW has never been used in blockbuster VFX ! There are numerous reasons for that of course, but an accompanying showreel tape/DVD with impressive LW footage, tutorials, *and* interviews with the people who created it would go a really long way. At least that's what I think.

nick

beverins
11-12-2003, 02:01 PM
Plus, each courseware DVD that Newtek could make would be an ad for the Video Toaster 3.... naturally they would use the VT 3 to make these.... right?

Only thing wrong with the courseware idea is that you have to pay people to make them.... even if you add the reponsibility onto someone already working there, I think it would be expected that they get compensated for scripting, shooting and editing... and Newtek seems like they are fairly careful with how they are spending their money lately.

cresshead
11-12-2003, 02:11 PM
i think it's something they could do once lw8 is out for sale...
give the marketing side of newtek a nudge...and like you say they can show off the video toaster and possibly tie into digital fusion as well...maybe parts could be developed with newtek and eyeon for some of it...

of course this is all pie in the sky currently so we can but hope that something like this gets a look at.

there's some great tutorials on newtek's site currently and you have a reference manual with lightwave it's just that there's no structured way of learning lightwave currently without looking at a 3rd party video deveopler...it could be that newtek could approach one of these and get them to make them under the guidence of newtek..sort of give their "seal of approval" to the courseware as guided by newtek.

we'll see.


if there's any current video producers out there..what's there thoughts on this idea?

steve g

Nemoid
11-12-2003, 02:44 PM
As you can have read from Softimage's lower their price thread, I had quite the same idea, Cresshead. a thing I would add to your thoughts is that some dvd authors can be some great Lw users we can find even here as I said in the last post in the Softi thread itself.

P.S. the more users wich vote this poll, the more possibility Nt takes this idea seriously, so c 'mon guys!!:D

cresshead
11-12-2003, 03:02 PM
too true...i saw your observation and thought that a separate, defined thread would be the best place to see if this idea "has legs" or not.

I've got several of the courseware books and cdrom's drom discreet...they actually use them as well to train resellers to demo
max and combustion to prospective buyers as well.

A range of books or pdf's plus example files would be a good start and then go on to tapes and dvd's, if newtek's resources are going to be stretched then maybe the "seal of approval" method could help lightwave users find good training without using the "lucky dip" method we currently have..also many books out there go over the basics that you get in the manual itself so i'd like to see an advanced courseware where you won't get the "this is beyond the scope of the book" type phrase crop up.

..i remember a "max 4 in depth" book actually says that the next bit is out of the depth of the book!....some in depth book that is huh?...more like the chap/gal who is writing it doesn't know how to do it....as in out of THEIR depth!:rolleyes:

later

stee+cats

pauland
11-12-2003, 03:29 PM
I'd rather see Newtek focus on Software/Hardawre Product than try and make revenue from courseware at the expense of the existing courseware providers. That said, Lee Stranahan stuff as has the free contributions by many others such as Splinegod, etc.

It's great that so many people give freely. I wouldn't be bothered by Newtek bundling some free tutorials, etc, but not as a commercial competitor.

Paul

RomainR
11-12-2003, 05:07 PM
You already got such courseware available out there.

Lee Stranahan has some great courseware available.
www.learnlightwave.com

Karen Tosoni has developed great courseware for Lightwave
www.3dexchange.com

Dan Ablan has great stuff at
www.3dgarage.com

Desktop Images carries a lot of great stuff too
www.desktopimages.com

Lostpencil animations has some great stuff
www.lostpencil.com

NewTek does a great job making and rounding up tutorials from all over the world.
We should let NewTek concetrate on making the great softwares we love to use.

The courseware is out there and it's all great. All you got to do is see who's teachin' suits you and your wallet the best.

My apologies to all have great learning stuff and I have not named cause I don't know about you.

Y'all have a great day.

P.S. I think I have to cut down on the frosted flakes;)

cresshead
11-12-2003, 05:32 PM
i think your missing my point...

think of it as a child learning english...

anyone can teach english..if they can speak it and write it down.

but for a proper education you need some sort structure so that everyone has the same chance to learn with a good proven structure method..that's why we have curriculms drawn up to teach in a proven way that will bring good results across the board.

i teach 3d at a college in the u.k and we all have to follow a structure so that enables students to learn effectivly.
i agree that there are good tutorial dvd's and video as you have listed and i have some of those tapes/dvd's myself but seeing that's there's so much choice available and not knowing which is the prefered way...well it can be a minfield or lucky dip when choosing such taining materials.

alias and discreet make there own courseware available in book/dvd and e-learning formats.

so that people using these resources should all have a similar background to learning the app...they also train their staff with these materials as well.

i'm not suggesting that we should not buy/use other people's training materials but that it would be a good idea to have some newtek sourced courseware as a good basis to learn from in addition to third party books, dvds and e learning.


i remember that we had a tutorial book with inspire 3d...but when i bought lw7 all we have is a reference manual with only the occasional small tutorial in a quick this is ho you use this in it.

we do have a good selection of tutorials on newtek's website
but you just sort of pick n mix what you want to learn from it..
maybe that could be re structured a little so that it progresses the new users a little better than it does currently.

of course lightwave initially is pretty simple to pick up but then after a while you hit a wall of "no knowledge" when you want to get deep into expressions, character rigs, lighting and the multitude of ways that gradients can be used as an example..

at that point there really should be some advanced courseware to make the leap from a intermediate user to an advanced user
of lightwave.

the only other thing would be for newtek to give a rating system or reviews of the available training materials from 3rd party users that's available so the artists can have some sort of re assurance that spend the likes of $1000 on dvd's wont be wasted and won't fall into that "beyond the scope" of this training dvd that i see in some 3dsmax books and cdrom i have bought in the past...
that's exactly WHY i bought the discreet advanced courseware!

i'm just wishing for a little more choice.



steve g

hopicus
11-12-2003, 08:16 PM
How many times are we allowed to vote?...:D in that if it will help to actually make this happen, I will volunteer to vote over and over again until my clicking finger can click no more...

Im not sure why anyone would not want newtek to do this... i wouldn't be at all surprised if newtek actually ended up making more money from the training materials than they do from the software they sell... and the more money that newteks brings in, the more they'll be able to spend on new incredible features will be in future updates of lightwave... :D

So Please, For the sake of children,... make this so...

private
11-12-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by RomainR
You already got such courseware available out there.
Karen Tosoni has developed great courseware for Lightwave
www.3dexchange.com

I took a look at this link. Then I took a look at the prices:
http://www.3dexchange.com/3dcourseware/pricing.html

You could buy SplineGod's, Dan Ablan's, all the desktop images dvds and Lost Pencil stuff and still have over $6000 extra left!!

I would really be interested if someone actually bout all the modules and dropped the $10,000. Seems like all the other people are involved in the community more and/or providing free content. That's also something to consider when you vote with your dollars.

For LW8, it would be really helpful if documentation was also upgraded. But for an extra $100 for disks and a manual, it might be cheaper to just buy Inside LW8 when it comes out and save an extra $50.

badllarma
11-13-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by hopicus
and the more money that newteks brings in, the more they'll be able to spend on new incredible features will be in future updates of lightwave... :D

So Please, For the sake of children,... make this so...

and that is the MAJOR point! The money spent on the DVD would be going toward making the final product better, in future releases. To me the more I think about it the more of a no brainer it looks WHY don't they do it?

Now if its down to cost how about giving Cresshead and myself a return air ticket to the US and we will come and do the filming, I'm sure you'd be up for mate?:D
I'll bring a couple of DV cameras a tripod a laptop give us access to VT 3 for a day for editing a cheep DVD authoring package. We will take over Proton's and Deuce's offices for a day beat them with a soggy sock to get our tutorials done, then round to the R&D team have a chat to them grap a few what comming next off them with the threat of the sock treatment add a few models and scenes a quick chat to Chuck.
......back to the UK slap it all together send the DVD back to Newtek sell it for $30.00 a piece plus P&P copy copy copy sell sell sell job done:D

Come guys look at what eyeon give us wth DFX a DVD with VTM's and content on, which although not quiet at Lee Stranahan level of hummour still got the point across of what that beasty can do.:)

SplineGod
11-13-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
there really should be some advanced courseware to make the leap from a intermediate user to an advanced user
of lightwave.

the only other thing would be for newtek to give a rating system or reviews of the available training materials from 3rd party users that's available so the artists can have some sort of re assurance that spend the likes of $1000 on dvd's wont be wasted and won't fall into that "beyond the scope" of this training dvd that i see in some 3dsmax books and cdrom i have bought in the past...
that's exactly WHY i bought the discreet advanced courseware!

i'm just wishing for a little more choice.

steve g

The problem with this is whether or not Newtek has enough resources to properly do it. Do they have enough people there who have a very deep background in not only Lightwave but teaching as well.
How would they even find the time to review and rate the courses that exist. Dans courses and CDs are probably around 30 hours or so. My Intro and Character Courses combined are over 90 hours. The Tour CDs I have add another 20 hours. You also have Carneras CDs, Tod Grimes CDs and so on. Just the stuff I have is well over 100 hours of material. Even if somone at Newtek had that kind of time (which I doubt) it would require someone with a great deal of experience with production, teaching and so forth as I pointed out to be able to even attempt it. It would take months. I also have support forums and so does Dan on top of the course materials. Since the support forums are technically part of the course a person would have to review that as well to do any kind of review some real justice. I dont think its possible and I personally dont feel that Newtek should be endorsing anyones wares over anyone elses. Its just not good business IMO. I think there are plenty of reviews online of the various offerings out there plus the free samples that each vendor has online for people to make pretty informed choices. :)

Nemoid
11-13-2003, 04:02 AM
The point still remains. therei isn't a structured courseware wich go from A to Z in learning Lightwave.

Now, I know that courseware's made from Splinegod, Dan , Carnera, Desktop Images and so on are really good, but the impression is that the user its someway forced to look here and there, and always ask himself if the courseware fits to him.

another interesting thing is that for example, in some Maya courseware, the author of that piece of program, explain that piece itself. since he knows exactly how it works, pro's and cons and all that stuff , the explaination can't be than very deep.

so, for example, we can have MD, and its author explaining exactly how it works, why, and its possible limits, etc.

it seems to me a good idea :) I really see great advantages.

at the same time, like I said, there's no prob with people or studios having their own couseware to sell,Like Splinegod, Dan and the great others. because a part of the price of the DVD can be given to them. this way there are many advantages:

1) a structured courseware
2) experts wich collaborate directly with Nt, wich means also alot of feedback on possible software problems, bugs, development
3) more money for Nt, but no loosing for teachers/authors of courseware. this means also more resources for developing the app.
4) a good form of advertising, because users and newbies know exactly what are the courseware at their disposal and where to go to find them
5) the possibility to have some learning material even from good users wich haven't the possibility to sell it.
6) the possibility of using the courseware itself as a strong guideline for teaching in schools.

now of course, the Lw development comes first, but try to see all this from a noob/external POV.
the reputation of the app itself grows, if the courseware is made well, because he/she know exactly there's a way to learn it very well, and this can also a good reason to buy the app. :D

just my 2 Euro cents

cresshead
11-13-2003, 04:29 AM
cheers for the input splinegod, i do in fact rate your videos very highly, maybe i'm not putting my points over very well [i'm a bit thick really...]..the things that would lend themselves best maybe in fact written courseware rather than videos even if videos ARE a faster learning medium [i think they are] written documents are sometimes good as you can read refer to them when you need to even if there's no pc present..where as dvd's need to be played/viewed on a t.v/pc...each medium is good.

for people looking at maya or max they have a choice of either the 3rd party books which many of them are in fact replacment manuals to a degree such as max fundamentals or the visual quickstart guide for max or maya as examples but crucially they also have a "set" of learning media from discreet and alias to pull from as well...in addition you can buy maya4.5 on cdrom and you get a 1 hour intro to maya on dvd on a second disc made by alias.
It gives the users or potential users a helping hand to know that there's detailed documentation out there when they get to a stage that the shipping docs and free tutorials do not cover or go into depth in that subject.

i think my comment on a rating system is as you point out unworkable so that's shot that one out of the sky!...still we did muse over it for a nanosecond!

i think the 5 dvd's that ship with lightwave [if you select them!]
that cover modeling a character and rigging/animating are a brilliant idea for people who want to get into character animation

would be neat to see newtek start some sort of courseware program at some point, it would give lightwave a more "PRO"
look to it having inhouse learning materials for the program thay create and would bannish the "hobby" impression somewhat that lightwave seems stuck with these days even though it's used and wins TV emmys and used in film fx.


it would be good to see. hear and understand how such studios as one's who did children of dune went about creating their fx to some degree in some detail same with the serious sam game and shows/games like that...eden fx for enterprise as well...darkside animation for t.v etc....

get some insight in to the pro side of lightwave without having to spend thousands of dollars.


in fact maybe todd grimes, dan and splingod could all contribute to the courseware..that would give newtek/lightwave a BRANDED set of learning materials [maybe written 100page courseware books ones on...lighting, surfacing, modeling] and also pave the way to their [splinegods, dan's dv garage and tod grimes for example... own sets of dvd's and online courses..to sort of bridge a gap....

can you see that i'm trying to get lightwave/newtek percieved with more than just buy the program...off you go!
give users a helpline with courseware...if the need it.

anyway i'll stop ranting on......!:rolleyes:

steve g

Matt
11-13-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
The problem with this is whether or not Newtek has enough resources to properly do it. Do they have enough people there who have a very deep background in not only Lightwave but teaching as well.

Exactly what I was thinking, although NewTek write LW I reckon the programmers aren't super-slick animators/modelers too, or not to the level of the high-end users of LW who are really pushing it day in day out.

colkai
11-13-2003, 07:00 AM
The funny thing is,
I just got the pre-update with DFX+ - which has a shed load of courseware provided with it. Like 1 DVD full! and a book to take you step by step through the initial learning curve.

So ya, I'd love to see LW8 have this.

SLAYER
11-13-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
The problem with this is whether or not Newtek has enough resources to properly do it. Do they have enough people there who have a very deep background in not only Lightwave but teaching as well.
How would they even find the time to review and rate the courses that exist. Dans courses and CDs are probably around 30 hours or so. My Intro and Character Courses combined are over 90 hours. The Tour CDs I have add another 20 hours. You also have Carneras CDs, Tod Grimes CDs and so on. Just the stuff I have is well over 100 hours of material. Even if somone at Newtek had that kind of time (which I doubt) it would require someone with a great deal of experience with production, teaching and so forth as I pointed out to be able to even attempt it. It would take months. I also have support forums and so does Dan on top of the course materials. Since the support forums are technically part of the course a person would have to review that as well to do any kind of review some real justice. I dont think its possible and I personally dont feel that Newtek should be endorsing anyones wares over anyone elses. Its just not good business IMO. I think there are plenty of reviews online of the various offerings out there plus the free samples that each vendor has online for people to make pretty informed choices. :)

It is possible!

MAYA has all sorts of 3rd party tutorials as well icluding the Gnomon series. From what I have seen, the Gnomon series kicks *** over any DVDs or classes for LW. No offense.
Tere are also books available from Alias about MAYA with CD's full of tutorials. These books are for beginning, intermediate, advanced, etc...

RomainR
11-13-2003, 08:37 AM
Damn,

There sure is a lot of people with a thirst for Lightwave soda.

:D

colkai
11-13-2003, 08:42 AM
I think the point Larry is trying to make is that Newtek do not have anywhere near the resources and staff that other companies do.
For me - have Newtek pay Larry, Lee and Dan to do some special stuff on LW8 for folks to get into - that would provide users with what they want whilst not putting additional pressure on the Newtek guys and gals.

Like most other things at the moment, I guess we shall have to wait and see what happens.
Of course one thing is, they are probably in no position to do anything now with the imminent release of LW[8]

SplineGod
11-13-2003, 12:26 PM
Ive been doing tutorial videos since the amiga days. Ive been involved with teaching students to do video production, editing, animation etc. etc. on a a large scale in several school districts over the years. Ive been involved with developing online courses for several years now. One thing I will say that its very difficult and very time consuming. In many ways it reminds me of texturing. No matter how much you cheat or how fast you can paint it still just takes a long time to do it. Going to print is even slower. Another thing is once you release a product you are bound to support it. Even if you have a disclaimer saying you are buying "as is" people still expect some kind of support. Customers will want anything from a replacement CD to clarification on parts of the learning material. All this requires some kind of infrastructure to deal with it. You have to, IMO, have people who have a background in teaching, a background in using the software on professional projects and is pretty much dedicated to only creating and supporting educational content at or for Newtek. I dont believe such people are that easy to find.
If they do this it should be well thought out and executed. :)

cresshead
11-13-2003, 07:46 PM
maybe something to think about for the future at newtek.

it's quite a task i know so you can't just roll out a newtek based courseware overnight.

would be good one day..till then i'll save up for some tutorials from "da man"....ye olde splinegod...

steve g

riki
11-13-2003, 07:46 PM
The funny thing with this is, that there's so much stuff out there, it's almost impossible to know where to start.

You kind of need to filter some things out and focus on the quality tuts, if that's possible.

The videos I've seen to-date have convinced me that this is the way of the future. It's an easy way to learn.

SplineGod
11-13-2003, 09:24 PM
Thanks Steve. :)