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RT-4-777
07-24-2013, 09:57 PM
I have exhausted the internet and this forum looking for answers, but inevitably I have no choice but to ask directly. So, are there any good VFX colleges or universities that focus on lightwave? I know of FX Animation, in Barcelona, but that's about it. Do you have any suggestions on a college you know of off the top of your head? I'm hoping to get into mostly game design and VFX. Also feel free share your opinions about going to college at all. Thank you for your time,

RT

:lwicon:

nickdigital
07-24-2013, 10:36 PM
Hm, to be honest I'm not sure you'll find a college that uses LightWave as their main package. Maya is still the big dog software out there. You could try the DAVESchool in Orlando, Florida. They are/used to be a LightWave school but I believe they've moved to Maya.

I think a good alternative would be to look into the myriad of training material (Liberty3D, YouTube, Rebelhill's website, etc) and this forum. I feel that a lot of the skilled wavers out there got to where they are by just getting into the program and exploring and on the job training. I realize that on the job training is impossible if you're not qualified to apply to begin with so I'm not sure I can offer a workaround to that.

Hopefully other forum members can chime in as to how they got to where they are.

Serling
07-24-2013, 11:21 PM
I have exhausted the internet and this forum looking for answers, but inevitably I have no choice but to ask directly. So, are there any good VFX colleges or universities that focus on lightwave? I know of FX Animation, in Barcelona, but that's about it. Do you have any suggestions on a college you know of off the top of your head? I'm hoping to get into mostly game design and VFX. Also feel free share your opinions about going to college at all. Thank you for your time,

RT

:lwicon:

There are no schools that teach LightWave in this country (U.S.) anymore. IADT (International Academy of Design and Technology) does have a game design degree and teaches 3DS Max, but I have no idea how good the program is. If you were to go to the DAVE school in Orlando, FL, you would be learning Maya for modeling and animation and Nuke for compositing (VFX), but DAVE doesn't really have a game design program.

Do you need college to learn this stuff? No. But if you're going to go the self-training route (and it can be done: studios want a good reel not a good degree), you MUST be highly disciplined and extremely self-motivated.

If you can do that, the rest, while not easy, is doable.

3D modeling is problem solving. Start with simple objects, learn the tools you need to model them, write down the tools and techniques you used to achieve them, and move on, always challenging yourself a little more along the way. Starting off on an object that's too hard is a motivation-killer. Set realistic goals and deadlines, meet them, and move on to something a bit harder. There is nothing that breeds success like success, so whatever you decide to model, finish it.

There are several excellent books you can buy on Amazon. The best of these will give you projects to tackle as you go. Search Amazon for 3D Modeling.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

nickdigital
07-24-2013, 11:43 PM
The other option would be to go to a good school to get a good education in general, learn good design, proper geometry construction, strong texturing skills, etc. You can always translate what you've learned into LightWave on your own.

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 06:06 AM
The Dave School switched away from LightWave and as of a month ago no longer has LightWave in any portion of the programs pipeline. Starting in September the school is using MODO for the modeling portion of the programs pipeline, Maya for rigging and Animation, Nuke for VFX/Comp and Vray for rendering. We also Use Zbrush for sculpting and a few other programs throught the course like Motion Builder for Mocap, etc.

Also... the school will be rolling out a new gaming program soon that is separate from its vfx/animation program.... we are currently staffing up for the big opening.

Let me know if you have any questions

MAUROCOR
07-25-2013, 06:36 AM
The Dave School switched away from LightWave and as of a month ago no longer has LightWave in any portion of the programs pipeline.

Hmmm, that is very sad!

ianr
07-25-2013, 06:47 AM
Why was that?
Core or Luxology pressure?

Can Mr.Powers do anything to
fix the situation. Mr VAUGHAN?

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 08:08 AM
The DAVE School was really the only LightWave based school since its doors opened 13 years ago. This gave the school the unique advantage of developing production ready LightWave talent. Being the only LightWave based school meant that we were really the only “supplier”. There are some community colleges that teach it but I’m not aware of any school that has an intense all-encompassing training program that has the high placement rate like the Dave School.

As the industry changed, so did the usage of LightWave in the industry. There has been a massive dry spell for the need of LightWave in the industry and if it weren’t for the hundreds of Nuke jobs we have placed our grads in, and if the school relied on LightWave jobs, the schools placement numbers would be zero or in the single digits. The Students we have placed in 3D related positions have picked up jobs using software other than LightWave (Max, Modo and Maya).

In order for the Dave School to keep its doors open it has to place a fixed percentage of its graduates within the industry. The school has done an amazing job of placing literally hundreds + working at the top studios, working on high profile movies, games, TV shows, etc.

Simply put… there currently isn’t a large enough LW market. If the School relied on LW jobs for its grads it would have shut its doors already.

We experienced the same thing when we were teaching Fusion at the school… there was a time were Fusion jobs were plenty… Nuke now owns that market and the school had a pulse on the ever changing industry and switched to Nuke years ago which has paid off for our grads… we have placed hundreds of grads at studios using Nuke.

Even the grads that we have placed over the last decade using LightWave have either picked up jobs using other software or have added other tools to their LW pipeline to stay employed. That said, there are studios using LightWave and those that are, almost always have Dave Grads working there (Eden FX, the Asylum, Dilated Pixels, Branit FX, IGT, Nickelodeon, to name a few).
If you ever want to really know what is going on in the industry as far as software usage, start a school and be responsible for finding work for your graduates…. Although it doesn’t give you the whole view, have a look at any of the job boards and see what the studios are hiring for. This is only a piece of the pie but it might give you some insight.

In the end, the Dave school has a program that doesn’t focus on software, it focuses on the core skills needed to work as a cg artist. We will continue to teach these core skills using software the studios are using.

Triodin
07-25-2013, 08:21 AM
This is a double edged sword for me - on the one hand, I'm sad that the LW market isn't what it used to be (or ever was?) - on the other hand, I love an underdog, so this kinda news makes me want to make something amazing with LW so I can show it off and be like "SEE?! LOOK! LIGHTWAVE BEYOTCHES!" - but that's probably why I'm still just a hobbyist tinkering in my office...

Are you still offering that one on one training, Proton?

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 08:23 AM
Are you still offering that one on one training, Proton?

yes. I'm currently booked for the rest of this month and August but can fill slots for future months.

Nicolas Jordan
07-25-2013, 08:28 AM
You would think with the project budgets getting smaller and smaller that Lightwave would be used more along side programs like Modo instead of Maya, 3DS Max etc. There are still many that use Lightwave but I do get the feeling that Lightwave may slowly be losing ground in the industry for a variety of reasons.

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 09:08 AM
You would think with the project budgets getting smaller and smaller that Lightwave would be used more along side programs like Modo instead of Maya, 3DS Max etc. There are still many that use Lightwave but I do get the feeling that Lightwave may slowly be losing ground in the industry for a variety of reasons.

The budgets are getting smaller and that's why you see so much of the work leaving the US.

Ryan Roye
07-25-2013, 09:37 AM
3D modeling is problem solving. Start with simple objects, learn the tools you need to model them, write down the tools and techniques you used to achieve them, and move on, always challenging yourself a little more along the way. Starting off on an object that's too hard is a motivation-killer. Set realistic goals and deadlines, meet them, and move on to something a bit harder. There is nothing that breeds success like success, so whatever you decide to model, finish it.

I couldn't have said it better myself... and also, the same can be said about animation in general.

Netvudu
07-25-2013, 09:39 AM
Instead of talking about institutions that do NOT teach Lightwave, we should be talking about those that do so. (which is the threadīs title after all)
I usually donīt go into commercial mode, but I see some really unelegant posts here advertising other institutions.

I understand Europe, namely Barcelona, looks too far for somebody living in the US but there are two good reasons for going to study with us to FX Animation:

- Reason Number One: Even if you factor in the expenses of the plane trip and living in Spain, for one or two years (depending on the program you study with us) you will save a HUGE amount of money. See, we are not cheap for Spain standards, but that means weīre still waay cheaper than any american colllege. And yes, we have english programs in place for english-speakers now, and Barcelona is a fantastic, secure, and fun place to live.

- Reason Number Two: You will get the BEST demo reel you can get in ANY school currently. And, mark my words, I will put this to test with ANY institution that want to do so. We are getting the best results not just in the first year, but also in the first month, and once again, I have all the reels to show them to whoever wants to. I know this, because after every year program we check the strongest institutions around the world, and not just Lightwave centers, and simply put...ours are stronger.

We also have a good placement rate. If you study two years with us you will learn A LOT of Lightwave, but also Nuke, Houdini, Realflow, python scripting, how to capture HDRIs, working with mocap and a long etc of important stuff for this job. And also you will have the best possible help to land jobs: an EYE OPENER reel.
Weībeen around SIGGRAPH at the job fair this year, and apparently big studios here are no different from big studios in Europe. They all like our studentīs reels, and some of them are willing to get into closer relation with us to get a head start on interships for our recent graduates.

Iīm sorry about the commercial tone for this thread. I donīt like it because I post here a lot, but I canīt stand undercover advertising, so my style is going up-front with people.

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 10:29 AM
It sounds like you guys have a great school Netvudu... Two years in Barcelona sounds awesome. It's nice hearing that there is an option for those wanting LightWave training... as I always say... nothing beats butts in seats. I hope you and the team have continued success with your training!

dandeentremont
07-25-2013, 12:41 PM
The DAVE School was really the only LightWave based school since its doors opened 13 years ago. This gave the school the unique advantage of developing production ready LightWave talent. Being the only LightWave based school meant that we were really the only “supplier”. There are some community colleges that teach it but I’m not aware of any school that has an intense all-encompassing training program that has the high placement rate like the Dave School.

As the industry changed, so did the usage of LightWave in the industry. There has been a massive dry spell for the need of LightWave in the industry and if it weren’t for the hundreds of Nuke jobs we have placed our grads in, and if the school relied on LightWave jobs, the schools placement numbers would be zero or in the single digits. The Students we have placed in 3D related positions have picked up jobs using software other than LightWave (Max, Modo and Maya).

In order for the Dave School to keep its doors open it has to place a fixed percentage of its graduates within the industry. The school has done an amazing job of placing literally hundreds + working at the top studios, working on high profile movies, games, TV shows, etc.

Simply put… there currently isn’t a large enough LW market. If the School relied on LW jobs for its grads it would have shut its doors already.

We experienced the same thing when we were teaching Fusion at the school… there was a time were Fusion jobs were plenty… Nuke now owns that market and the school had a pulse on the ever changing industry and switched to Nuke years ago which has paid off for our grads… we have placed hundreds of grads at studios using Nuke.

Even the grads that we have placed over the last decade using LightWave have either picked up jobs using other software or have added other tools to their LW pipeline to stay employed. That said, there are studios using LightWave and those that are, almost always have Dave Grads working there (Eden FX, the Asylum, Dilated Pixels, Branit FX, IGT, Nickelodeon, to name a few).
If you ever want to really know what is going on in the industry as far as software usage, start a school and be responsible for finding work for your graduates…. Although it doesn’t give you the whole view, have a look at any of the job boards and see what the studios are hiring for. This is only a piece of the pie but it might give you some insight.

In the end, the Dave school has a program that doesn’t focus on software, it focuses on the core skills needed to work as a cg artist. We will continue to teach these core skills using software the studios are using.

Aaaargh, you're freaking me out, Will; LW and Fusion are all I know!
*Scrambles to (yet again) try and learn Maya*

WilliamVaughan
07-25-2013, 01:57 PM
Aaaargh, you're freaking me out, Will; LW and Fusion are all I know!
*Scrambles to (yet again) try and learn Maya*

If that is getting you work and you are creating the types of things you are after there is nothing to freak out about. When you graduated from the Dave School there was plenty of LightWave work to be had.... the landscape has changed since then. It would be nice to see LightWave make a come back... I have many years invested in LightWave so I for one would be very happy to see it happen.


And dont forget... as a grad you can come take any of the classes for free.... anytime.

RT-4-777
07-25-2013, 02:34 PM
Thank you everybody. I'm sad to see that other schools aren't working with this magnificent program...but it's understandable. I hope this thread will be of help to future students who were as stuck as I was! Once again, thanks lightwave gurus, you've done it again!

robpowers3d
07-25-2013, 05:26 PM
We certainly wish the DAVE school the best in the transition they are going through right now and on their entry into the very crowded Maya and Autodesk-centric training market. I've had a close connection with the DAVE school because it was actually at my request that William pulled together students from their program to send to work with me on Avatar.

But, I would like to direct everyone to check out the amazing student work at the FXAnimation school in Barcelona. It is really the best student work that I have seen from any school and I just visited the school a couple of months ago. We interviewed Xes the director of the school and one of their instructors Javier at SIGGRAPH and you can see their reel and judge the quality of the student work for yourself. We ran the reel also after the show closing today. You can learn more about the FXAnimation school here: http://www.fxanimation.es/

prometheus
07-26-2013, 07:33 PM
In sweden there is a couple of general university or directly aimed mediaschools...such as the royal techological high scool, (maya I think)
Nackademien which some of the swedish guys here has gone to..also maya, donīt think there was any Lightwave courses in there.
I believe umeå university had something with lighwave, not sure, I also think that karlstad university had it too in cooperation with the studio called assorted nuts, but I donīt have any information if that still is so.

Maya is always considered the standard tool in schools, as 3d max, generally it is the industry market/company that has those requests on their students, which consequently tells us that studios and corporations dictates what software required, of course the schools follow that, they canīt just jump on something else because of any other reason ..like this software has enourmous value for many, for such case to happen, the studios or corporations themself has to simply switch or add that software to their pipeline or production and from there it can jump over to requests for students with competence on that software.

So I think the root must be seeded and aimed at specific studios and corporations all around the world.
I do think it is strange that Lightwave hasnīt been more popular here in sweden or at other places around the world considering how well it works for tv-shows on budget on time with great results.
there also seem to be a lot more variance and demand for the modeling process, thus zbrush, rhino,sketchup and also modo has been demanded...Lightwave as an allround tool seem to have been falling through the interest filter somehow.

An instructor I had at some courses on 3d max and digital production with photoshop/illustrator, started to look more in to modo a time ago, and was so impressed by rendering speed etc, I know I said, I tried to get him to look in to lightwave cause at that time I though VPR and fprime was doing a better job than modo with interactive rendering, but he didnīt seem a bit interested in that..knowing that he might have had old rumour in his backpack that Lightwave was to old etc.

Itīs a sort of old rumour that sort of seems to prevent folks around here to look deeper in to the value of lightwave, how to solve that puzzle and how to get more studios and corporation to open their eyes a little wider, I just dont know. It might start with the tech itselft within Lightwave and new innovative products of course:) followed by massive marketing and by that I would say aimed towards the right places, why not put up a unique showcase page listing a whole bunch studios and corporations, with links to interviews and showcases.

I believe in good educational versions too, maybe even a free personal learning edition, I donīt think a studio or corporation will take the time do check on a 15 day or 30 day demo, if it is non time limit, they can in a calm pace evaluate it when time is there, I hope that Newtek/lightwave group could offer that someday.

As reference..even though luxology team has some great stuff from what Ivé seen of video showcases, and some stuff that actually attracts me more than many of the recent lightwave updates, I am simply stubborn and wonīt download a 15 day demo...that might run out before I get the proper time to test it and the time to test enough functions.

watermark, export limits just fine, a non time limit PLE version is what I believe would help a lot.

There is two components that needs to meet on the way..so if the target isnīt coming to you, you have to move towards the target, so a research and mapping of studios and corporations using 3d graphics might be necessary,
that would be a daunting task perhaps, but if it can be done...you would have identified your target and can aim at it straight on...if the target is unknown and you as the hunter is lurking in the woods..nothing happens.

Michael

shrox
07-26-2013, 11:41 PM
Instead of talking about institutions that do NOT teach Lightwave, we should be talking about those that do so. (which is the threadīs title after all)
I usually donīt go into commercial mode, but I see some really unelegant posts here advertising other institutions.

I understand Europe, namely Barcelona, looks too far for somebody living in the US but there are two good reasons for going to study with us to FX Animation:

- Reason Number One: Even if you factor in the expenses of the plane trip and living in Spain, for one or two years (depending on the program you study with us) you will save a HUGE amount of money. See, we are not cheap for Spain standards, but that means weīre still waay cheaper than any american colllege. And yes, we have english programs in place for english-speakers now, and Barcelona is a fantastic, secure, and fun place to live.

- Reason Number Two: You will get the BEST demo reel you can get in ANY school currently. And, mark my words, I will put this to test with ANY institution that want to do so. We are getting the best results not just in the first year, but also in the first month, and once again, I have all the reels to show them to whoever wants to. I know this, because after every year program we check the strongest institutions around the world, and not just Lightwave centers, and simply put...ours are stronger.

We also have a good placement rate. If you study two years with us you will learn A LOT of Lightwave, but also Nuke, Houdini, Realflow, python scripting, how to capture HDRIs, working with mocap and a long etc of important stuff for this job. And also you will have the best possible help to land jobs: an EYE OPENER reel.
Weībeen around SIGGRAPH at the job fair this year, and apparently big studios here are no different from big studios in Europe. They all like our studentīs reels, and some of them are willing to get into closer relation with us to get a head start on interships for our recent graduates.

Iīm sorry about the commercial tone for this thread. I donīt like it because I post here a lot, but I canīt stand undercover advertising, so my style is going up-front with people.

I would so go there! I have traveled abroad as a Lightwave professional before, but I could always learn more.

pinkmouse
07-27-2013, 03:36 AM
Frankly, just the prospect of a year or so in Barcelona is tempting, the LW stuff would just be the cherry on the top!

ianr
07-27-2013, 07:14 AM
Thank you very much Proton,
With your clean, honest style of reply.
Maybe with Chronoscuplt's Hydra in say
LW 13/14 there will be a renaisannce.
Thank you for all your fine work up till now,
you a Gentleman..Happy Trails!!!

mballard
08-02-2013, 06:45 AM
Memphis College of Art, they used Lightwave years ago, not sure now. I moved away from Memphis 12 yrs ago. It's a private liberal arts college,might be 4yr program?? worth checking into maybe.

DAVE_FACTORY
08-02-2013, 02:09 PM
Watch this video at 44 minutes. Learn what its like to work at Stereo D. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__utuCBcwY0

Were do all current DAVE School(FACTORY) grads go to work? Stereo D. They hired entire classes. i wonder why?

Willie is right, butts in seats. Nice job placement. Yes I am a troll living under a bridge.

tonyhall007
08-03-2013, 03:00 AM
Hi everyone
I currently teach Lightwave at Vision West Notts College in England, which is one of the biggest colleges in the UK. We do not have a full time 3D course. I teach Lightwave to Interactive Media students as part of their two year Interactive Media course. I only get one two and a half hour class with these students each week, but because of how easy Lightwave is to learn I get the student to produce some nice work in a short time. The only problem is that its fine teaching Lightwave as part of a general interactive media course as its all about getting the student to understand the basic of 3D elements and how you can manipulate them to create models and animations, however if we did run a full time 3D course, I don't think I could justify using Lightwave 3D as the main 3D application because what I teach would have to help the student gain employment and in the UK, there is not a lot of companies wanting Lightwave, its all Maya and 3D max. Not sure how Lightwave and Newtek are going to be able to compete with Autodesk. I think there needs to be a bigger push to get Colleges, universities and training centers to start delivery Lightwave 3D.

prometheus
08-03-2013, 04:17 AM
Hi everyone
I currently teach Lightwave at Vision West Notts College in England, which is one of the biggest colleges in the UK. We do not have a full time 3D course. I teach Lightwave to Interactive Media students as part of their two year Interactive Media course. I only get one two and a half hour class with these students each week, but because of how easy Lightwave is to learn I get the student to produce some nice work in a short time. The only problem is that its fine teaching Lightwave as part of a general interactive media course as its all about getting the student to understand the basic of 3D elements and how you can manipulate them to create models and animations, however if we did run a full time 3D course, I don't think I could justify using Lightwave 3D as the main 3D application because what I teach would have to help the student gain employment and in the UK, there is not a lot of companies wanting Lightwave, its all Maya and 3D max. Not sure how Lightwave and Newtek are going to be able to compete with Autodesk. I think there needs to be a bigger push to get Colleges, universities and training centers to start delivery Lightwave 3D.

As you mentioned, there in lies the problem, the market demands other tools when they look at the education of students unfortunatly...mostly, I am curious about FX animation though, what in the spanish environment can make
it thrive, do the market in spain have a completly different understanding of this or what? donīt they face the same challenges of having the industry telling them, no please..we need students that knows Maya and max?

No doubt about that fx animation seems to produce great reels and graduate students, It must still be in conflict with what the industry demands...and the question is if the fact that fx animation is such a good school and lighwave
such a good fast and economical tool ....can balance that conflict to such extent that the students graduating from fx animation actually gains value from this.

Same goes here in sweden...demands are mostly to have knowledge of Maya and max, though cinema4d has gained a bigger market.
Then again...discussing lightwave as tool in a college vs others isnīt what this thread is about, best lightwave college is.

Michael

sukardi
08-03-2013, 04:50 AM
+1 for PLE version.

I think this is the only way for Newtek to roll back AD dominance. I think it is doing wonders for Nuke and Houdini...

prometheus
08-03-2013, 04:57 AM
+1 for PLE version.

I think this is the only way for Newtek to roll back AD dominance. I think it is doing wonders for Nuke and Houdini...

Most likely not the only way, but a very good point for a good start...it is the product itself that matters a lot and the reputation around too, it is odd though..thinking back about the history and reputation "amount of series using lightwave as tool" and the facts around that hasnīt provided a huge platform upon where the industry demands the use of lightwave much more than it seems to do right now.
Innovative new tools that are unique in the industry might help gain reputation and interest too, like chronosculpt...if they continue more on such things and also included in Lightwave, Im sure
it will boost interest and reputation to a completly new level.

prometheus
08-03-2013, 05:09 AM
I must say though..donīt under estimate the dorment power of Ple training versions:)

I mean..I wonder how many schools would hear about it, try it out...and further more, how many studios would test it? itīs about having it acessable without any
complicated request, orders etc..demo versions? well that itsnīt the same, you stamp the timelimit on to the brains of the very person that is on the process of checking something out, and
the timelimit itself will tell you ..nah, I donīt have time for this.
(note..at least it works like that in my brain, havenīt even bothered about testing a 15 day limit demo of modo, why bother when that time isnīt enough for me to check it out properly)

Michael

Mr Rid
08-03-2013, 05:17 AM
The internet. Seriously.

I've posted this many times- all of the best artists I worked with were self-taught. For a fraction of intuition, buy killer gear, be a maverick, and dig into the wealth of tutorials, forums, and user groups available online.

Follow your muse!

Btw, MIT, Harvard, Berkely, Yale, Stanford and other colleges have joined a massive Open Education Movement, presenting tons of online courses and lectures FREE. See "edX".


Filmmakers that did not go to film school:

Steven Spielberg (rejected by USC three times)
James Cameron (films grossed over 5 billion)
Stanely Kubrick- "I never learned anything at all in school"
Hitchcock
Terry Gilliam
David Fincher
Peter Jackson (high school dropout)
Ridley Scott
Tony Scott
Quentin Tarantino (high school dropout)
Woody Allen (failed film classes and was expelled)
Sam Raimi
Federico Fellini
Franįois Truffaut
Christopher Nolan
Sergio Leone
Wes Craven
Howard Hawks
Orson Welles
George Romero
Robert Rodriguez
John Waters
Brian DePalma
Sydney Pollack
Clint Eastwood
Peter Bogdanovich
David Cronenberg
John Cassavetes
Michael Apted
Tom Tykwer
The Wachowskis
Guy Ritchie
Trey Parker
Harold Ramis
John Sayles

Albert Einstein-
“Learning is not a product of schooling but the lifelong attempt to acquire it.”

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

prometheus
08-03-2013, 05:28 AM
The internet. Seriously.

."

That works too, noo doubt about it, perhaps not a question on what education form is the best ..rather than the fact that it is different and perhaps imposes different demands on the individual himself ..for some it might
work best and for some it might not, maybe very individual regarding which method suits the best.
Then again..not all internet training or sources will give you a good direction VS a renomed school that is guiding you in a good fast way, I suspect learning by yourself and internet resources means spending more time,less money than schools that
might be the opposite...less time, more money for schools etc, thatīs at least what I suspect.

researching through internet sources and training materials might also be a djungle, not giving you a good overview on what is good etc.
itīs also about working environment and projects...which might not be so easy to simulate with online/internet training, unless such environment is set up with some type of online tools and lectures or work projects.

Edit..I must say though, self education is a form I more fit in to, rather than following school programs, I always find shool lectures not adapted to not follow how I want to be though or how I learn things, thus I lack
interest to complete the learning at many times, with a few exeptions. (not referencing any specific learning)

Michael

OnlineRender
08-03-2013, 06:55 AM
Mr Rid is bang on the money , although what I will highlight about schooling especially one like DAVE , is the contacts and people you meet

prometheus
08-03-2013, 07:03 AM
There is differences between going the e-way and the school way.

I donīt see that the e-way can implement the education form such as fx animation seem to do with itīs sort of spiral learning where you would start of would small basic projects followed by projects adding on module steps in a
sort of spiral adding knowledge curve based on production within studio requirement etc.

if you were to go the e-way, where would you find that?, you got a lot of module training, individual pieces but rarely seen complete training to gain as many skills necessary, that would be more up to yourself to find and structure e-learning materialsas you would see fit.

Just wondering..and posing the different methods against eachother, questioning if a student wouldnīt gain knowledge much faster within a school program? just because of that some schools are structured based
upon the production learning environment VS module single training scattered all around the internet that has no such structure.
That said...I think at some point, training centers over the internet will be the thing, if it applies proper structures for learning.

nickdigital
08-03-2013, 10:32 AM
Also just because you go to school doesn't mean you're going to be good. I've certainly seen people who went to a good school with a poor reel.

WilliamVaughan
08-03-2013, 10:43 AM
I know plenty of amazing artists that are self taught ... That's how I learned. That said... I think it's tough to try and find a one solution fits all approach to education.

I've worked with students that had never touched a computer, ones that already had a four year degree or had previously been trained at another school, ones that were self taught and a mix of previous experiences. One thing I can say without doubt is that everyone learns differently.


I agree that there is a wealth of free information online, cheap resources like Digital Tutors, books, magazines, etc. If that form of education works for you it's going to be the cheapest solution. Many of the students that I have worked with attempted to learn on their own and that method just didnt click for them. Use what works for your budget, time, and education preference. My opinion is go with what will get you there the quickest as nothing gets you experience like actual production... so the sooner you can work on actual work.. the better.

If you look at the list Mr Rid posted you will see that although many of those people didnt go to school... they did learn by working in the industry. James Cameron, Sam Raimi , and many others worked on some very low budget (some would say awful) movies before they honed their craft to produce some of my favorite films. So again... the quicker you can be working in the industry the better imho.

I'm just happy that there are so many options available today that didnt exist back when I got into 3D. I cant think of a better time to be learning this stuff then now!

WilliamVaughan
08-03-2013, 10:48 AM
Also just because you go to school doesn't mean you're going to be good. I've certainly seen people who went to a good school with a poor reel.

+1

Very true... a piece of paper that said you went to school wont do anything for you if you cant produce good work. Students that barely get by arent doing themselves any favors. I compare it to being a surgeon... when you graduate from medical school you will actually have to know your stuff to make it as a surgeon... the diploma on the wall wont get you far if you cant do the work.

At all the studios I worked at the resume was a formality... It was always about their work and their personality.

Dexter2999
08-03-2013, 11:10 AM
Mr. Rid, I would point out that the best artists you met aren't the best BECAUSE they were self taught. They may HAPPEN TO BE self taught. Being self taught is merely side product of being highly motivated to find materials yourself and having the self discipline to practice them. So the best artists you met are (or were at some point) highly motivated and disciplined.

Some people without these characteristics, or who possess them to a lesser degree, may be better off in a structured learning environment like a school.

And this omits those freakishly savant types who needed little to no practice and are naturally gifted.

WilliamVaughan
08-03-2013, 11:22 AM
Mr. Rid, I would point out that the best artists you met aren't the best BECAUSE they were self taught. They may HAPPEN TO BE self taught. Being self taught is merely side product of being highly motivated to find materials yourself and having the self discipline to practice them. So the best artists you met are (or were at some point) highly motivated and disciplined.

Some people without these characteristics, or who possess them to a lesser degree, may be better off in a structured learning environment like a school.

And this omits those freakishly savant types who needed little to no practice and are naturally gifted.

I'd also add that highly motivated and disciplined people can still greatly benefit from schools... the polar opposite is also true in that a lazy person that doesn't put in the effort at school will get little in return. The ol' "you get out what you put in" definitely applys to education imho.

It's important to note that a school/DVD/Article is only as good as it's instructors/professors.... and their experience.

Dexter2999
08-03-2013, 11:27 AM
Also just because you go to school doesn't mean you're going to be good. I've certainly seen people who went to a good school with a poor reel.

This is something that follows a larger sociological trend, being that 20% of the population have the drive and determination and put everything they have into it. And the remaining 80% do enough to get by or fail. (I came to this conclusion many years ago but a real Social Anthropologist came to the same conclusion and actually named it.)

But in context what this means that any school anywhere will have 20% of their graduating class be the ones who gave it their all. The rest, not so much. And this is the problem particularly with institutions like Full Sail. It isn't that they aren't capable of generating talented graduates. It is that they graduate so many students their 80% is gargantuan compared to other traditional schools. And this group is out there giving the school a bad rep. making harder for their 20%.

I know this is the truth with their audio and film programs. I have personally met graduates who I did not find out for years went to Full Sail because they know the stigma that can be attached to that name.

Schools don't make great graduates, unless they fail everyone who isn't great. Schools only provide opportunity for great students. It is up to the student to what degree they choose to take advantage of that opportunity.

Much as I said to Mr. Rid, it isn't the process that makes great artists as much as it is the person.

prometheus
08-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Also just because you go to school doesn't mean you're going to be good. I've certainly seen people who went to a good school with a poor reel.

Yes of course, but isnīt that pretty obvious? :) :) attending a school is one thing, graduate with a high grade exam is more to be questioned that way, if you do get that high grade, would that mean youré going to be good or not for a certain task?
I think it is a matter of matching what youre good at agains what job is required, for yourself as individual, and for the studio or company that hireīs you.

papou
08-03-2013, 03:22 PM
wow... no more school teaching lw in US!! ... holyshit.
i tought it was an Europe problem.
... so Barcelona is like Sparta.

Nicolas Jordan
08-03-2013, 04:21 PM
+1

At all the studios I worked at the resume was a formality... It was always about their work and their personality.

When I was hired for my first 3D job by a small company to do arch-viz work over 6 years ago I wasn't asked for my resume at all. :D

Spinland
08-03-2013, 04:33 PM
I'm far from ready to etch my name in the LW success column; the jury's still out but my fledgeling studio seems to be making good progress. The only formal 3D training I've had was via an online school, and that in Maya. I just love LW and the workflow it permits, and I really don't ever want to change. Every iteration of LW releases seems to reinforce the wisdom of my bias.

In theory I'd love to get more formal LW training but finances and time dictate I keep my eye on the ring as the carrousel takes me by it.

Netvudu
08-03-2013, 05:05 PM
Just to add my voice again, for all of you that think (with a good reason) that it ainīt about the school but about the art you can create, I totally agree. Thatīs why as you can tell from the SIGGRAPH interview I mentioned the word demo reel all the time, almost ad nauseam.
It is possible that you donīt need a school to make that. Perfectly possible.
Personally, it took me many years to be able to achieve the level, not just of knowledge that I grant to my students, but also of quality they get on their work. Having someone that pushes you constantly and makes you see the pitfalls before you fall saves time. Thatīs it. A school is a time saver. In the case of FX Animation is a major time saver that will save you several years of personal work which might or might not lead you to the same point depending on your attitude and personal issues.

Also, although we teach Lightwave, the important thing is that we teach the job. How to become a VFX artist. Thatīs what in the end really lands jobs. Not which sofware you learnt. (I think our two-year graduates here get out with 5 or 6 different software package knowledge depending on the task at hand)

For all of you, maniacs of software brands, I was in Dreamworks two days ago watching an animator do his stuff. What do you think they use for animation...Maya? nope Softimage? nope Lightwave? nope. Max? keep guessing....C4D, Modo, Messiah, Windows Paint and nerve pills? nope. An in-house tool with a strong OpenGL that shows channels, animation curves, and mmm-....thatīs about it. Can you learn this thing anywhere? nope. They want you to know how to animate. You show that with a strong reel. Period.

MPC recently checked one of our Houdini graduate students and told him they were interested. Our student replied he had no Maya knowledge at all (didnīt make the full two year with us, just the final part) and that he had heard that Maya was the thing being used at MPC. Their reply "oh, donīt worry. You canīt find any of our in-house tools anywhere which is what we use" Bottom line? Again, learn the job not the software.

At FX Animation we teach a job, and if we think Lightwave helps us to do for many reasons not found in other packages, so be it. Also some companies help you to do your job, others impel you not to do so. We like the first type of companies.
So itīs not about finding lightwave jobs around people. Itīs about teaching people to be good at VFX.
I see many people here still wondering about why this software or the other. Thatīs why they donīt understand how the market flows. Many schools fail for the same reason.

Again, I said it at the interview. Either you change your 5-year old views or youīre out of the sector looking for a different job. Weīd rather prepare our people for whatīs there now, not for what was there some time ago.

OnlineRender
08-03-2013, 05:24 PM
personally I played a lot of football ""soccer"" and I started at the grass roots " age 4-22" before I crippled my knee ... anyway the point you need to institutionalize them young I mean high_school age for 3D students , I can name several schools that now have implemented blender into there curriculum I really do struggle finding LW in schools in fact the home truth is that I find it hard In Scotland full stop to find studios that use LW ,lets not be ignorant about this and when I left collage they had just removed LW version 7 and moved to AD ...

I think the education price for LW is asking too much " I understand the princible of make money " but schools are skint and AD The market leader is supplying free copies it's a no brainier from all angles ... LW will find it very hard to gain this ground... it's catch 22

which is why applaud LWG taking a new direction and releasing a new app.

I am not saying its all doom and gloom but its a pretty screwed situation

I suppose it comes down to how good you are and not what tool ...

sami
08-03-2013, 08:54 PM
I just scanned this thread so forgive me if it was noted already, and I thought it might be worth mentioning

Future Media Concepts (http://www.fmctraining.com/fmc.asp?z=3D+Animation+%26+Design&v=NewTek&g=LightWave+3D) still seems to offer Lightwave training and have done so since the late 90s and the instruction quality was good then and I imagine still. It's worth checking out...

Titus
08-04-2013, 08:38 PM
Hi guys! I've been absent for a while.

Right now I receive more and more job applications from animators who know Blender. LW seems to be out of the radar here in Mexico. There seems to be a good but small LW school here, though.

WilliamVaughan
08-05-2013, 06:11 AM
Hi guys! I've been absent for a while.

Right now I receive more and more job applications from animators who know Blender. LW seems to be out of the radar here in Mexico. There seems to be a good but small LW school here, though.

I think my buddy Carlos still teaches LW at his school in Mexico City: http://www.3dpuppets.com/

Michael K
08-05-2013, 07:34 AM
Watch this video at 44 minutes. Learn what its like to work at Stereo D. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__utuCBcwY0

Were do all current DAVE School(FACTORY) grads go to work? Stereo D. They hired entire classes. i wonder why?

Willie is right, butts in seats. Nice job placement. Yes I am a troll living under a bridge.

As the director of career services for The DAVE School, I would like to say that The DAVE School is very proud to have such a successful relationship with Stereo D. The CEO routinely comes out to the school to interview our graduates based on the 3 days of training that we provide in the area of stereoscopic conversion. Many of our graduates have moved up through the ranks to be CG supervisors, senior artists, team leads and often doing traditional VFX compositing, fluid and smoke simulations, and more. The graduates they hire wind up getting credits on summer tent pole features and it gives them a great start to their career. After establishing themselves in LA they often leave to work at other VFX studios.

But make no mistake that we are having no problems finding jobs in non stereoscopic roles at studios across the US and around the globe. As William mentioned earlier, The DAVE School has accreditation standards with regards to career placement and we achieve and exceed those standards every year and we are on track this year as well in spite of the fact that Stereo D hasn’t been here since December of last year. We have had success in getting our students placed as game animators, game modelers, 3D artists, VFX compositors, Arch-Vis artists, and more.

ccclarke
08-06-2013, 08:42 AM
I just scanned this thread so forgive me if it was noted already, and I thought it might be worth mentioning

Future Media Concepts (http://www.fmctraining.com/fmc.asp?z=3D+Animation+%26+Design&v=NewTek&g=LightWave+3D) still seems to offer Lightwave training and have done so since the late 90s and the instruction quality was good then and I imagine still. It's worth checking out...


I attended the FMC Lightwave Master class in Orlando in 2006. For $2500 you get full immersion in Lightwave for six days. At that point, I had about six months of experience working with Lightwave on my own, and the class was my first exposure to an artist who knew their way around the software, which was inspiring. They recommend you take the Basic and Advanced classes a few weeks apart to let the information sink in, but I didn't have time to fly back and forth, and I took them back-to-back.

Lightwave is not one of their most-requested courses, and they needed a minimum of two students to make it worthwhile to teach the course. One of the graphic artists I worked with agreed to try it out, so we had a quorum, and caught a flight to Orlando.

The instructor was excellent, the facility was well-equipped and the class was very fast-paced. We went from the coordinate system on the first day to rigging a hand by the sixth. It was like drinking out of a firehose, but I got a lot out of it. At the end of the course, I asked my classmate (who had never heard of Lightwave) what he thought of the experience, and he said, "There is NO WAY I'm going to devote this much time to learning one piece of software." Obviously, it wasn't for him.

For anyone contemplating attending FMC's Lightwave course, I recommend it. It isn't cheap, but it will get you going if you stick with it. Dan Ablan's latest Lightwave book was included then.

Will's online Lightwave tutorials are a cheaper alternative, but you have to be really motivated to learn Lightwave on your own. There's no substitute for constructive, real-time feedback from a Lightwave instructor.

Probably the biggest lesson I took away from the FMC course was how much more I needed to really learn. Other than love, Lightwave is one of the single-most complex things I've ever thrown my heart into.

While I was there, I took an after-hours tour of the nearby DAVE school, and ultimately attended a few months later to get more Lightwave exposure (three months of modeling versus three days.) That experience was very enriching, and for the money, a better value. It's a shame that Lightwave isn't offered there now, but the market dictates the needs of the courses they teach, --as it should be.

If you're serious about attending FMC's Lightwave course, I would recommend lots of practice before you get there. That way, you'll have better questions to ask. Of course, they have to teach the subject matter in a specified order and cater to the least common denominator in the class, but the instructor we had offered personalized instruction to the two of us.

I hope this helps!

CC

Matt
08-06-2013, 12:59 PM
FYI: Have deleted a post that was sailing too close to the wind of a personal attack, let's keep this discussion constructive please.

Thanks.

Spinland
08-06-2013, 01:33 PM
Thanks, Matt! :thumbsup: