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View Full Version : Nevron Motion? Why buy something that should be IN Lightwave?



mikala
07-23-2013, 12:51 PM
Screams money grab to me. Sorry Newtek

cresshead
07-23-2013, 01:25 PM
they're a business not a charity.

you could say the same for all the plugins and modules for modo 701.

mikala
07-23-2013, 01:28 PM
It's not about charity but a fully functional program.
The one they say is a studio in a box.....Don't use Modo and simply don't care how they do business.

Ryan Roye
07-23-2013, 01:48 PM
Well, I don't feel the absence of native mocap or animated sculpting really impacts my ability to do content that encompasses my entire production pipeline. I rather like the idea of having the big fancy tools as separate purchases rather than having tools that I may not even be able to take advantage of. IE: I don't have the space or equipment required for mocap, and the content I work on almost never requires the level of detail that would justify using a sculpt-animation tool.

Iaian7
07-23-2013, 02:07 PM
It's not about charity but a fully functional program.
The one they say is a studio in a box...

This has confused me as well...didn't Newtek advertise Kinect support in 11.x at one point? And better mocap support? Spinning those promises off in a standalone app is cool for integrating into other (non-Lightwave) workflows, but I doubt that's what anyone here is looking for.

Thomas Leitner
07-23-2013, 02:19 PM
This has confused me as well...didn't Newtek advertise Kinect support in 11.x at one point? And better mocap support? Spinning those promises off in a standalone app is cool for integrating into other (non-Lightwave) workflows, but I doubt that's what anyone here is looking for.

NevronMotion isnīt a standalone app. Itīs a extra sold Lightwave plugin.

ciao
Thomas

mikala
07-23-2013, 02:21 PM
Extra.

OnlineRender
07-23-2013, 02:33 PM
NevronMotion isnīt a standalone app. Itīs a extra sold Lightwave plugin.

ciao
Thomas

with the potential to be cross application like TFD

Phil
07-23-2013, 02:35 PM
Because it's useful to you and you feel that good engineering should be rewarded? Because you already got additional features for free that weren't part of 11.0 as 11.5 and now 11.6 and, as such, LW3DG have already shown that they deliver good value for money in LW upgrades? Because you see such value in it that you realize the cost is minimized by the productivity gains it offers?

VonBon
07-23-2013, 02:36 PM
Maybe I'm old school, but I'm not a big fan of Mocap,
so I'm glad its not raising the cost of the base program.

mikala
07-23-2013, 02:40 PM
My thinking is have it in Lightwave. Get Lightwave in the studios and expand it's use again.

VonBon
07-23-2013, 02:58 PM
I agree. Personally I think that Chrono Sculpt will be the way in.
This stuff will increase the cost, so I do like that I can get the base if I want.

Lewis
07-23-2013, 03:35 PM
Because it's useful to you and you feel that good engineering should be rewarded? Because you already got additional features for free that weren't part of 11.0 as 11.5 and now 11.6 and, as such, LW3DG have already shown that they deliver good value for money in LW upgrades? Because you see such value in it that you realize the cost is minimized by the productivity gains it offers?

Well that's more a POV than fact :).

I don't say it's not worth rewardign DEVs but we are rewarding them with paying for full upgrades when they say (which is BTW more expensive thna it was back then few years ago so that's more rewarding too sicne LW price went up 60% and upgrade price went 50% up in last few years) and nobody said they have to do 11.6 so it was their choice to make 11.6 free update - right :)?

I think at least Retargeting should be part of Layout if not complete Nevron... We have nice genoma and we have ability to load BVH files and yet we don't have re-targeting so it's kind of hard to use Genoma+BVH i.e. it's not working at all together.

So making Lw modular (i.e. buy "this" and "this" additionaly if you want this and this feature) kind of breaks idea "all in Box" NT/LW3DG is so much proud of and always mentioning (evne now in Siggraph 2013 it's still that mantra while we see it's not really that way anymore).

Also from Modeling POV it's not really working 'coz 11.6 has none of puding for modelers - right :)?

Said all that I still say they did good work on 11.6 and other what they presented, just not seeign it worth extra 700$ especially 'coz it's splitting app more instead unifying.

vncnt
07-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Screams money grab to me. Sorry Newtek

I think itīs an exellent idea to gain experience with new types of program structures and interfaces without losing money to the competition.
The features the new programs represent are for specialized purposes.

Yes, in the future they should be in one interface, one fresh & modern structure.

AbstractTech3D
07-23-2013, 03:57 PM
Because it's useful to you and you feel that good engineering should be rewarded? Because you already got additional features for free that weren't part of 11.0 as 11.5 and now 11.6 and, as such, LW3DG have already shown that they deliver good value for money in LW upgrades? Because you see such value in it that you realize the cost is minimized by the productivity gains it offers?

core

tyrot
07-23-2013, 04:00 PM
the point is - lets say you have MANY mocap data- how you gonna mix them ? 7.5 motionmixer?

lardbros
07-23-2013, 05:28 PM
Unfortunately it does feel like someone at Newtek's marketing department has gone a bit wonky... I see that it costs time and money to develop cool tools like this, but it seems to me that it'll slow the development of actual LW.

Oh well... we can't have everything, but was quite excited about trying out Kinect Mocap stuff.

ivanze
07-23-2013, 05:40 PM
I don't get it. We got a lot of cool stuff with LW 11.5 and LW 11.6 and was not charged for it, but there is still people complaining for things that may be well part of Lightwave 12.

AbstractTech3D
07-23-2013, 05:46 PM
I don't get it. We got a lot of cool stuff with LW 11.5 and LW 11.6 and was not charged for it, but there is still people complaining for things that may be well part of Lightwave 12.

Great if they are part of LW 12.

But I'd like to know that this is the case.

DrStrik9
07-23-2013, 06:00 PM
It seems to me that having other capabilities not directly associated with the cost of LW upgrades is a GOOD thing. If you need it, buy it; if not, then save your money; in this sense it's good that the additions aren't in the base price. -- I realize some people in these threads don't like the idea of "if you like it, buy it, but if you don't like it, then don't buy it." But to me, it just makes good sense.

Plus, you gotta give NT props for 11.6 being no-charge. And to hopefully continue supporting LW in general, I hope the new products sell well, as people need them.

But once launched as separate, I doubt that the new products will ever be included in the base LW, so I would not expect them to be included with LW 12. -- Just an educated guess.

Phil
07-23-2013, 06:11 PM
core

Your point is what, exactly? Core didn't promise mocap handling, retargeting or anything displayed in Nevron. I just don't see your point here, so be kind and explain it to me?

sukardi
07-23-2013, 06:31 PM
I don't blame Newtek for charging for Nevron but my view is that bundling them is a better marketing strategy.

I think quite a number of people who work with characters are sitting on the fence due to Lightwave rather incomplete CA toolset - retargeting being the main one. Bundling Nevron would push some of these people over, which in the long run, I believe is more profitable...

AbstractTech3D
07-23-2013, 07:04 PM
Your point is what, exactly? Core didn't promise mocap handling, retargeting or anything displayed in Nevron. I just don't see your point here, so be kind and explain it to me?

Ok, perhaps I'm a bit harsh.


DOn't worry, I know core is a dead duck.

robpowers3d
07-23-2013, 08:11 PM
Screams money grab to me. Sorry Newtek

Hi Mikala, the short answer is because it takes developer time and resources to create tools like NevronMotion and unfortunately I haven't found many quality developers that are willing to work for free. :) I value the hard work of our development team and I believe that the worldwide LightWave user base will ultimately do the same. With the show special we are talking about motion capture retargeting, rig presets, and Kinect support in LightWave for $200 dollars. :)

Davewriter
07-23-2013, 08:17 PM
When I look at Chrono, two things come to mind.
First is that there is nothing about it's look that says LW. It is something that is designed looking at it being a stand-a-lone that could be used with other platforms. Yes, you can use it and get things back into LW - but it seems that you are exporting, not sending it directly to Layout or Modeler. And although it is hyper-cool, I do not see a personal reason for me getting it right now. So for right now I don't have a problem with seeing it a completely different product made by the same nice people I get LW from. Nor do I feel cheated because they are not "giving away" to me their innovation.

Second, I don't have a problem with viewing Nevron as being a plug-in I need to buy. In this case, yes I am buying it from NT, but if Liberty 3D had if first, I would have happily bought from them. Not everyone with LW will be interested and in this case - no matter how good Rebil Hill is at trying to learn me up - I'm gonna take the easy way out. I want now - I get to pay for now.
Maybe there will be a bundle price come LW 12 or something... but for right now I'm not feeling very bad about this or feeling "cheated"

mikala
07-23-2013, 08:19 PM
I am aware of development costs I'm saying it might have been a wiser move to have it integrated and sell full seats.
Win for Newtek and another seat of LW in a studio. Win win.
I have two seats of LW , I have put money into the dev since before Core.
Just keep getting the feeling lately LW is becoming more fractured and Autodeskian.

Amurrell
07-23-2013, 08:29 PM
I like the idea of doing things this way, and the speed of development for these two things shows that the devs can really crank things out, so if they are as equally focused on LW, then 12 should be a heck of a release.

Bookman
07-23-2013, 08:54 PM
Not really. I have no issues with NT selling modules or apps that can extend what can be done in areas where LW simply cannot integrate. Obviously it would be a lot of extra effort to get ChronoSculpt into layout when only a fraction of the user base would use it. Imho it makes sense sell modules for higher end tools especially when designed for multi-app pipelines.

Really my only hang up about it is that in the case of ChronoSculpt is that while it looks cool, and I could see how I might want to use it. It seems like people who use Maya or SI probably would have little need for it. Without trying to seem negative I would suggest that down the road tools such as LOD creation to translate the finished Data over to Unreal3/4/CryEngine etc. while keeping coherent UVs, smoothing groups, multi-subs etc. Normal/Hight map creation etc (either as sequences or just single images). So you could create both high end and game usable assets from the same source.

Stuff like that.

wmcole
07-23-2013, 09:08 PM
they're a business not a charity.

you could say the same for all the plugins and modules for modo 701.

I also remember when physics dynamics, fur, etc. were 3rd-party extra cost plug-ins. The fact that this plug-in was developed "in-house" (at least for marketing purposes) does not bother me. However, I would like it if the documentation for it could be 'exposed' to potential buyers ahead of time so I can fully comprehend the extra hardware required (do I need all the XBox HW, or just the Kinect sensor?) and the extent, accuracy, and workflow associated with using it. These would be key to evaluating whether the "bang-for-buck" and ROI according to projected need / use are in the buyers wheelhouse.

BTW, love the cat face. Looks very much like the face of a very sweet Japanese bobtail with whom I shared accommodations for 12 years.

Verlon
07-23-2013, 09:55 PM
Just switch to Mac. Nevron motion will be useless to you and you will not have to worry about it.

But, I bet it shows up either in LW12 or as an enticement to pre-order LW12.

hrgiger
07-23-2013, 10:06 PM
Hi Mikala, the short answer is because it takes developer time and resources to create tools like NevronMotion and unfortunately I haven't found many quality developers that are willing to work for free. :) I value the hard work of our development team and I believe that the worldwide LightWave user base will ultimately do the same. With the show special we are talking about motion capture retargeting, rig presets, and Kinect support in LightWave for $200 dollars. :)

Rob, can you tell us exactly how long the Siggraph pricing remains in effect? Thanks!

realgray
07-23-2013, 10:14 PM
It would be nice to see a pdf instruction on both new products to help me make my decision. Is that possible?

snsmoore
07-23-2013, 11:01 PM
With the show special we are talking about motion capture retargeting, rig presets, and Kinect support in LightWave for $200 dollars. :)

Sold! I just bought my copy. It is worth the price, especially at the show special rate! (I'm a hobbyist so I save a little cash each month for software upgrades, etc. So this was great timing.)

This will save me a lot of time and give me the ability to rough out a lot of quick animation. I hope the Lightwave team creates some good tutorials/documentation for it. I'd love to see a more challenging example using something like the Darkside Animation's cube character from the 11.5 Genoma documentation.

kosmodave
07-23-2013, 11:47 PM
I think we will see a lot less development in Lightwave now. The Lightwave devs are a small group as they keep telling us that are spread across the globe (which I believe is a hindrance already) and now they have to support another app as well. I think they have thrown in the towel with modeler and have chucked the start of plan C on the table (plan B being CORE). I downloaded the trial version of 11.5.1 as some people here have said it contains the start of a new mesh handling system so I thought I would check it out. 24000 poly object rotated slow in 9.6 and 10.1 and I agree was marginally quicker in 11.5.1 however when I came to edit a vertex it was the same slow c**p in all three with no discernable difference between any of them. All I see here is some slight optimization and most definitely not the new system and people keep trying to say. Time will tell I guess but how long has it been already? I think we have a Jurrasic Park moment here with all the Ah's, Cool stuff and yippee but later there will be running and screaming...........

Dave

geo_n
07-23-2013, 11:56 PM
I hope they bundle it with lw 12 atleast and add in the cost. As a full application that's as mature as lightwave it needs mocap tools within the app by this time or within 5 years ago. :D

Lewis
07-24-2013, 12:38 AM
I think we will see a lot less development in Lightwave now. The Lightwave devs are a small group as they keep telling us that are spread across the globe (which I believe is a hindrance already) and now they have to support another app as well. I think they have thrown in the towel with modeler and have chucked the start of plan C on the table (plan B being CORE). I downloaded the trial version of 11.5.1 as some people here have said it contains the start of a new mesh handling system so I thought I would check it out. 24000 poly object rotated slow in 9.6 and 10.1 and I agree was marginally quicker in 11.5.1 however when I came to edit a vertex it was the same slow c**p in all three with no discernable difference between any of them. All I see here is some slight optimization and most definitely not the new system and people keep trying to say. Time will tell I guess but how long has it been already? I think we have a Jurrasic Park moment here with all the Ah's, Cool stuff and yippee but later there will be running and screaming...........

Dave

New Mesh system test/try update is there in 11.5 and 11.5.1, thing is that it just works with few selected/new tools (Transform, Axis Scale/Rotate/Translate, LinePen, Chamfer, HeatShrink and few more and that's the problem, if you are using any other tool for mesh editing it's still slow as snail as it was in 90's on LW6.x and forward. So it's there but lot less useful than you might think when you listen marketing :). Still it's very useful in some situations with higher poly meshes where LWM usually crawls and new mesh system (granted only if you need some of new tools) so 11.5 was nice update for modeling people.

As for your idea of slower LW Developing now, well i do agree with that, now it's just question how well will new app going to sell so we will see how devoted they are going to be to LW, especially modeling in LW which is again on backburner obviously. And if modeler is "dead" now then it just means that 5 years ago Jay was right and LW classic can't be fixed/modernized so much :(. Well LW 12 will probably be moment of truth or at least part of it :).

wrightyp100
07-24-2013, 01:57 AM
I really wish I would have started learning Blender many years ago. :(

Never too late ;)

calilifestyle
07-24-2013, 02:07 AM
i'll say it again... Speed edit... enough said

gordonrobb
07-24-2013, 02:10 AM
I think Mikala 's point is spot on, and Rob ( no disrespect intended) your answer doesn't hold water. You make it sound like development is not part of an existing products life cycle. The big issue LW has had over the years (prior to you being here) is that it didn't develop the way others did. Upgrading versions requires development.

However, Mikalas point is not "ooh, I wish I could have that new toy for free", its that it was shown (or the Kinect, real-time mocap part if it was), a while back, and described as "part of LW, right out of e box". The are people, myself included, who have a Kinect, and have been patiently waiting for this "out of the box" fubctionslity, and I'm now being told I will have to pay extra.

Compare this to Pixologic, I bout ZBrush at version 3, and have had countless upgrades, introducing totally new features, all included in my original purchase. I am fairly sure they are commercially aware and that their developers don't work for nothing. You promised big improvements in LW as it develops, that's why I subscribed to core, that's why I committed to upgrading to 11.5 to retain my charter membership. Now you're finally giving me something that I want and asking me to pay extra.

I, for one, am definitely calling FOUL.

Please be aware, I am talking purely about Nevron Motion (or the Kinect mocap part of it), not the other thing (although I'm not sure why that should be part of LW either, just a part of 12 - which we have to pay for anyway. )

lardbros
07-24-2013, 02:43 AM
I am inclined to agree that I feel Mo-Cap retargeting should actually be built into LW, it would give LW a big leg-up to where it should be for character work. A shame they've made this decision really... but maybe people want it THAT badly that it may shift tonnes more seats of LW. People are generally VERY impressed with the Kinect stuff, it's instant feedback... and I'm sure people will use it. Just not sure if it's a studio kind of tool, or more of a hobbyist type venture unfortunately.

Now, ChronoSculpt doesn't look like it would be possible in the current LW, so that decision makes a lot of sense.

lwanmtr
07-24-2013, 02:58 AM
I dont mind so much the seperate purchase...yes, I'd love it if they had been packaged with 11.6...but its not that big a deal (at least not yet).
Chronosculpt looks very useful, and looks to be able to talk to different apps, so standalone isnt a bad idea.

My only concern with nevron motion is the capture hardware, so far I've only heard of windows drivers for kinect, and no word on the sony alternative. This makes it not as useful to mac users...so this is where they prove when they always said that both the windows and mac versions will have the same capabilities.

The only thing that selling these two separately does is kind of diminish the All in One Box idea, which has been one of my main reasons for sticking with LW since prehistory.

MentalFish
07-24-2013, 03:23 AM
Kinect on Mac is no problem: http://openkinect.org and I expect NevronMotion to be cross platform since nothing has been specified on OS requirement. If NevronMotion turns out to be for LightWave on Windows only then at least I won't have to pay for a feature that my Mac LightWave can't run. If it is dual-platform, then I'll get it when I need it (mo-cap for game models).

Couldn't/shouldn't also ChronoSculpt have been a plugin/feature in Layout?

I'd suggest that if NewTek wants to go "modular", either focus on new standalone tools or side features/plugins for LightWave.

Oh, and while you are at it, make a build that excludes all the various render cameras apart from the Baking Camera, 100k poly limit pr layer in Modeler, and let it into the wild as a free "LightWave for Unity" edition :)

alexos
07-24-2013, 04:03 AM
These are specialized tools after all; I happily paid for LWCad and K-Ray and Octane (and FPrime, and VRoom, and and and) and I would just as happily pay for Nevron or Chronosculpt if I needed them. Which I don't, so I'd rather have them kept separate than having to dish out 300$ more for the next LW update, for something I don't need. I mean, yeah, who wouldn't want to have *everything*, but realistically (and without taking the horrible, horrible, pay-for-each-tool C4D approach) this cannot always be the case.

And, I don't know, I suppose Chronosculpt might actually "steal" developement resources from LW but, on the other hand, it is a stand-alone product: if it sells it will generate, you know, money! That can't be bad...

ADP.

lwanmtr
07-24-2013, 04:15 AM
As long as NewTek doesnt start taking the C4d or Modo approach and make each module a seperate purchase its ok...lol

Lewis
07-24-2013, 04:23 AM
As long as NewTek doesnt start taking the C4d or Modo approach and make each module a seperate purchase its ok...lol

Didn't they just did it with Nevron ?

lwanmtr
07-24-2013, 04:31 AM
I'll wait to see if it stays seperate (and chronosculpt) or if it becomes integrated in to LW-12 before I judge on that...lol.

hrgiger
07-24-2013, 05:34 AM
I'll wait to see if it stays seperate (and chronosculpt) or if it becomes integrated in to LW-12 before I judge on that...lol.
rob has already said that will never happen.. the only thing he indicated might be coming to regular lw was the hydra engine inside of chronosculpt.

geo_n
07-24-2013, 05:47 AM
That's not really absolute. He did say previously that mocap tools is going to be in lw, etc, etc, and its now a separate module. The decision could still change hopefully "to never, to will do" because lw can't really compete anymore with character cg stuff without decent mocap tools.

OnlineRender
07-24-2013, 05:55 AM
<ON MOBILE SORRY> before I start "I also belive that Nevron" should be inlcuded but from a company perspective I can see why it merits being module based and I also think its the correct way to keep the base price of LW competitive "if it stays that price" I think CS is a little expensive but I am tight... I have been reading some of the devs post and there is no room for argument they know the code they know how it works they know how to implement it and I dont care if you are the best programmer in the world if you dont have it infront of you, there is no room to comment ... but I am glad to see some nice new tech "call it core if you may" but its new and it shows direction from a 3D company with the potiental to branch out to other applications , in my book that is a huge asset .

I am a little worried how they will micro-manage all these applications that includes marketing mainly because I think CS will do really well and take flight .
do I feel LW is being neglected " not at-all" from version 11 i have seen free upgrades and belive as a user I have recived my monies worth." although there is some elements of LW11.6 I think still implemented correctly.

I would love to see weight painting I would love to see modeler get new tools I would love "MAKE ANIMATION AWESOME BUTTON" but all this new tech belongs to LW3DG and this tech can at some point be brought into LW12+

Happy Days

Spinland
07-24-2013, 06:00 AM
Not to get all apologist, but I can see NT's position on the pricing for Nevron. Given that the point upgrades to 11 aren't bringing in any revenue, and the (I expect) ramped up development that's gone into Nevron and CS, I can easily see a cash flow problem. I'd rather vote with my dollars and get these capabilities now than wait for 12 to see mocap brought into the fold, even if it means Nevron gets bundled in 12 (I already read Rob's post that said that would never happen with CS).

Just my opinion.

Cageman
07-24-2013, 06:13 AM
I think we will see a lot less development in Lightwave now.

Dave

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136543-Siggraph-2013-New-Product-to-be-announced-!-What-s-all-this-then&p=1333796&viewfull=1#post1333796

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136543-Siggraph-2013-New-Product-to-be-announced-!-What-s-all-this-then&p=1333828&viewfull=1#post1333828

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136543-Siggraph-2013-New-Product-to-be-announced-!-What-s-all-this-then&p=1333856&viewfull=1#post1333856

I hope these posts will clear things up on the notion "a lot less development in Lightwave..."

:)

Cageman
07-24-2013, 06:17 AM
Didn't they just did it with Nevron ?

Mocap-retargeting isn't what I would call a "standard" feature in a 3D-application. There is a reason why MotionBuilder has stayed relevant for so many years, and will still do. I do not see myself use Nevron since I use MotionBuilder for such things.

If they would strip out the renderengine and charge extra for it, I would start to get worried though. But this thing makes perfect sense to have as a pay for plugin.

Surrealist.
07-24-2013, 06:40 AM
As has been mentioned elsewhere, this was promised as a feature in 11.5. It is not a perception. And I remember that thread. The wording in the videos crystal clear. Made me even go back and watch it again to be sure.

Aside from that ah... "glitch" on PR and marketing. Sure,it should be something paid for or as a major release upgrade.

Spinland
07-24-2013, 06:42 AM
The best laid plans...?

Greenlaw
07-24-2013, 07:18 AM
Mocap-retargeting isn't what I would call a "standard" feature in a 3D-application. There is a reason why MotionBuilder has stayed relevant for so many years, and will still do. I do not see myself use Nevron since I use MotionBuilder for such things.

I'm in the same situation--I'm using iPi Mocap Studio 2.0 and Motion Builder for our productions, which work quite well together with LightWave, so Nevron in its current form doesn't offer any significant improvements for our workflow.

That said, I picked up a license yesterday in support of LW3DG actively working on a broader native mocap system. For example, seeing that Nevron is based on MS's Kinect SDK, it actually has me more excited about potential future capabilities (i.e., Kinect based face capture directly in LW anyone?)

Anyway, lots of exciting news yesterday. I may even pick up ChronoSculpt this today--I think I have an immediate use for this one.

G.

JohnMarchant
07-24-2013, 09:15 AM
Exactly

Nemoid
07-24-2013, 09:49 AM
As for Chronosculpt its clear that current Lw could never manage a so huge polycount model in that fluyd way and be able to edit that overtime, so as a standalone, especially if it grows in time with sculpting tools and methods to enhance productivity for studios as well as freelancers using Lw and other apps, it is a good move from NT

As for NevronMotion i think that could actually be part of current Lw, together with Genoma and the other tools. Anyway its not a huge problem if they did it as a plugin. price is quite cheap compared to other plugins for Lw and other apps too.

What i would like to see for Lw among other things is some more Modeler love, though. Modelling has always been an important Lw strong point so it would need some more advancements there.

archijam
07-24-2013, 11:42 AM
I like that Lightwave has some company on the website.

It was looking so lonely next to all the Tricaster stuff :)

WAY TO GO LIGHTWAVE TEAM!

I will be upgrading to 12, (hopefully with nevron).

Not sure about 701 yet ..

lino.grandi
07-24-2013, 11:48 AM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that. ;) a LW12 upgrade+NevronMotion special price is something different, that may come, or not.

What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.

archijam
07-24-2013, 11:52 AM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that. ;) a LW12 upgrade+NevronMotion special price is something different, that may come, or not.

What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.

OK :) .. not really interested in reading the 40+ pages in the other thread, perhaps this was mentioned there ;) ..

WOuld be good to get some virtual inclusion of the kinect in LW, however limited! Cheers!

Lewis
07-24-2013, 12:07 PM
Lino, we have saying "Never say Never" ;).

Afterall good luck with that system which looks very nice (congrats on that) but basically that kills idea of so many times marketed/preached by LW3dG/NT i.e. "All in Box" system, would be nice to phase out that on Marekting talk then 'coz it ain't true anymore :).

geo_n
07-24-2013, 12:10 PM
What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.

That's just :D

hrgiger
07-24-2013, 03:18 PM
I really don't get it either Megalodon. You actually didn't lose anything because you got your money back for LW10.

Newtek didn't take away your LW discounts. You did when you chose to ask for a refund. You knew, you would lose your discount if you took the refund. That's all on you. I wasn't happy with LW10 either but I chose to take a chance that LW11 would be a better upgrade. If it wasn't, I wasn't going to worry about the $395 I had spent over two years earlier on a program that ended up being cancelled in favor of continuing development on current LW (probably a good decision all things considered). I figured it was worth it to hold onto a license of LW in the event I would want to upgrade later. Either with LW11 or 12 or even after if it took that long before a version of LW was out that I would find value in.

And now you are back to LW and are a current user of LW11 yes? And you are complaining about the free updates when LW3DG has made the decision to go back to a more typical LW development cycle where there are a few free updates between paid updates because thats not what they did for LW 10. And somehow, they held a gun to your head and said take your refund because our goal is to force you into taking a refund so that we can make you feel cheated later when we bring more value during the 11 cycle. Wow. Just wow.

kosmodave
07-24-2013, 03:35 PM
Unfortunately I couldn't get my money back for LW10 because I have irreplaceable plugins tied to that dongle and there is no way I would have bought it if I had a choice. I'm happy current users are getting good value now which is what it should be but there is no way on earth LW10 was anything like good value for me.

Dave

wesleycorgi
07-24-2013, 03:44 PM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that. ;) a LW12 upgrade+NevronMotion special price is something different, that may come, or not.

What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.
I'm also ok if LW decides to keep NevronMotion separate, especially if it keeps feature parity on the Mac side (I've already bought in, but didn't pay attention about the Kinect functionality being Windows only).

Spinland
07-24-2013, 03:48 PM
I'm also ok if LW decides to keep NevronMotion separate, especially if it keeps feature parity on the Mac side (I've already bought in, but didn't pay attention about the Kinect functionality being Windows only).

I would be thrilled if the team were able to explore integrating Nevron with the third party SDK that allows Kinect on the Mac. Thrilled.

Verlon
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
So Megaladon's argument is that he is upset that too much has been included in LW11? That's an odd thing to gripe about. Especially after he was so upset about LW10 that he bailed on LW entirely and was never going to buy from NT again.

Anyway, like others, I am wondering where the Kinect integration that was promised for LW11 is. If not Nevron Motion, the please tell me what we are getting that Rob referred to in previous shows. That was something that lured me in to LW11 upgrade after the initial release did not.

Also, I would never say that Lightwave development has stalled. Layout is amazing. Modeler? Drop a million or so ploys on it and see what happens. UI / workflow improvements? It feels like I am using Layout 11.6 and Modeler 6.5 or 7. So, even if you keep the two app workflow, please bring Modeler up to the level of Layout.

Megalodon2.0
07-24-2013, 04:30 PM
I really don't get it either Megalodon. You actually didn't lose anything because you got your money back for LW10.
Wrong. *I* spent money in sending it back to them. I had to go through switching over plugins to a NEW dongle.

Newtek didn't take away your LW discounts. You did when you chose to ask for a refund. You knew, you would lose your discount if you took the refund. That's all on you. I wasn't happy with LW10 either but I chose to take a chance that LW11 would be a better upgrade. If it wasn't, I wasn't going to worry about the $395 I had spent over two years earlier on a program that ended up being cancelled in favor of continuing development on current LW (probably a good decision all things considered). I figured it was worth it to hold onto a license of LW in the event I would want to upgrade later. Either with LW11 or 12 or even after if it took that long before a version of LW was out that I would find value in.
So it's okay for ME to be penalized because NT provided a subpar upgrade? Yeah, LW11 was great - but HOW MUCH GREATER is it than 10.1? By at least an order of magnitude. There were MANY other directions for NT to take - and you participated in those discussions AND agreed - but they chose to give us less. IMO (and yes, it is just that) we were asked to pay for a full upgrade but we didn't receive one. That's all there is to it. And as I recall, that special upgrade pricing was because CORE was so late and they kept slipping on delivery times. Why should we have to give up ALL of the five upgrades instead of just one, which would have been fair. The point is, IF NT had been fair, there would not be this discussion.

And now you are back to LW and are a current user of LW11 yes? And you are complaining about the free updates when LW3DG has made the decision to go back to a more typical LW development cycle where there are a few free updates between paid updates because thats not what they did for LW 10. And somehow, they held a gun to your head and said take your refund because our goal is to force you into taking a refund so that we can make you feel cheated later when we bring more value during the 11 cycle. Wow. Just wow.
We have two licenses of 11 and they are working nicely. I'm not complaining about the updates to 11, but because we HAVE received quite a few of them it is just yet another reminder of how we were told "shorter development cycles" which would have made 10.1 FAR more palatable. To me this is a lie - scant few resources were used on 10.1 and full steam ahead on LW11 AND new programs to boot. You don't agree, that's fine. But others do. It makes no difference in the end to myself or NT. My LW fanboy status was eliminated with 10.1. Dropping CORE I understood and made my peace with. I even made my peace with the tiny 10.1 - but LW11.6 just reminded me (yet again) of how small 10.1 was. It's just that nagging blister that goes away but then comes back.

If you can't understand, fine. I have no problem with that. In fact, I don't care. You can disagree all you want. LW will be in my toolbox for quite some time to come and I enjoy it and STILL recommend it. NT I've discovered is not my friend, but just another company who wants my cash. Sometimes I hate reality.

That's all... end of story... no more (slightly) angry posts. I'm going back to work... LW5.5 Modeler..... :) And wow. Just wow. :jam: :beerchug:


So Megaladon's argument is that he is upset that too much has been included in LW11? That's an odd thing to gripe about. Especially after he was so upset about LW10 that he bailed on LW entirely and was never going to buy from NT again.
Faulty memory. I NEVER said that. In fact I said quite the opposite since we've got 11 licenses - 9 of 9.6 and two of 11. At this time I am inextricably locked into LW since I have MANY thousands of dollars invested in the software. I could NOT just stop using LW. Read my response above to seriously understand.

And that is my last word on that subject.

hrgiger
07-24-2013, 04:44 PM
Wrong. *I* spent money in sending it back to them. I had to go through switching over plugins to a NEW dongle.

um, but you did get your money back yes? How much could you have possibly spent sending a 2 1/2" dongle back to Texas? Did you send it in a wooden shipping crate?


So it's okay for ME to be penalized because NT provided a subpar upgrade? Yeah, LW11 was great - but HOW MUCH GREATER is it than 10.1? By at least an order of magnitude. There were MANY other directions for NT to take - and you participated in those discussions AND agreed - but they chose to give us less. IMO (and yes, it is just that) we were asked to pay for a full upgrade but we didn't receive one. That's all there is to it. And as I recall, that special upgrade pricing was because CORE was so late and they kept slipping on delivery times. Why should we have to give up ALL of the five upgrades instead of just one, which would have been fair. The point is, IF NT had been fair, there would not be this discussion.

WRONG (I'm just capatalizing because you do that and I figure you're more likely to read my posts). The special pricing was because CORE was discontinued and it was Newtek's WAY of compensating those of US who decided to STAY ON BOARD and continue on with their revised direction. It had nothing to do with CORE being LATE. As far as how much less value we got with 10 then with 11, that DOESN'T really apply to YOU because you took the refund. Their obligation to you ended at that point. Stop crying over spilled MILK man.


We have two licenses of 11 and they are working nicely. I'm not complaining about the updates to 11, but because we HAVE received quite a few of them it is just yet another reminder of how we were told "shorter development cycles" which would have made 10.1 FAR more palatable. To me this is a lie - scant few resources were used on 10.1 and full steam ahead on LW11 AND new programs to boot. You don't agree, that's fine. But others do. It makes no difference in the end to myself or NT. My LW fanboy status was eliminated with 10.1. Dropping CORE I understood and made my peace with. I even made my peace with the tiny 10.1 - but LW11.6 just reminded me (yet again) of how small 10.1 was. It's just that nagging blister that goes away but then comes back.

If you can't understand, fine. I have no problem with that. In fact, I don't care. You can disagree all you want. LW will be in my toolbox for quite some time to come and I enjoy it and STILL recommend it. NT I've discovered is not my friend, but just another company who wants my cash. Sometimes I hate reality.

AGAIN, spilled milk, water under the BRIDGE, water mixed with milk under the bridge. It's time to pick the pieces of that BROKEN heart and move on.





And that is my last word on that subject.

LOL

Spinland
07-24-2013, 04:48 PM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that.

There is at least one third party SDK out there that allows the Kinect for Windows to be run from OS X. I know this is probably a very low priority in the grand scheme of things, but for the sake of parity for your Mac users, might there be some chance of the Nevron team eventually integrating that?

HarverdGrad
07-24-2013, 04:48 PM
It really looks like you're back to your old (and n my opinion) pointless track. I think that what the LW team has done with the product in the last 3 years is simply amazing. Look at the marketing, at the website, at 11.5 and .6 FREE upgrades...

Now we're offering new products to artists needing them.

Everyone has been working very hard to make all this happening. Someone must be really blind not to notice how much the LightWave development has changed in the last few years. And even more blind not understanding what the future will offer to LightWave users.

I have to say I'm really starting to feel tired of hearing the same 3 years old broken record playing again. ;)

Hi Lino,
It would ease my mind if somebody from Newtek were to go down on record as stating that NevronMotion, and ChronoSculpt were both developed internally by NewTek Employee's (dev Team) and not purchased from outside Developers. Developed from outside the company could mean wonky support (anyone remember Prem and his tool back in LW8?)
Regards~

Hail
07-24-2013, 04:50 PM
As much as I'd love to - and I REALLY would love to - I've got too much invested currently in LW with 11 licenses at so many plugins bought and paid. Most recently TFD. I just recall Chuck telling us that development cycles were going to be shorter after the lowly 10.1 and here we are at LW11.6. Why did I get so little in LW10.x AND screwed over with losing the lower-cost upgrades? Yes, life isn't fair, but... LW10 and 7 months later 10.1 - then - LW11 in Apr. 2012, 11.0.1, 11.0.2, 11.0.3, 11.5, 11.6 in July 2013 - what's wrong with that picture?

Come on.. Meg I thought you had gotten over this?
The horse has been long buttered to death already, there's point spanking em again :)

hrgiger
07-24-2013, 04:57 PM
Hoping Lino or someone from NT can answer. When does the Siggraph pricing officially end?

Lino- I tried sending you a PM about it but your inbox is full. Clean that out man!

Virtualkey08
07-24-2013, 05:05 PM
@ Megalodon2.0: Newtek people COULD be your friend if you let them, I had my issues with them a while back, I was getting frustrated and yes CORE really pissed me off. All things being equal I would have rather had a program that could handle some of the really heavy meshes without having to stutter everytime I turn around, and work in Smooth Shade in Modeler without it sticking for 5 minutes because the HUB is always there (Btw: Anyone know how to disable it on the mac? I haven't figured it out yet) but they are trying.. It really looks like this new direction they are taking is a solid and worthwile one.. So no they may want your money but not so bad that they really want to piss you off at the same time.. My .02 cents adjusted for inflation (which is about .0000000001 cent by now)

dwburman
07-24-2013, 05:17 PM
@ Megalodon2.0: Newtek people COULD be your friend if you let them, I had my issues with them a while back, I was getting frustrated and yes CORE really pissed me off. All things being equal I would have rather had a program that could handle some of the really heavy meshes without having to stutter everytime I turn around, and work in Smooth Shade in Modeler without it sticking for 5 minutes because the HUB is always there (Btw: Anyone know how to disable it on the mac? I haven't figured it out yet) but they are trying.. It really looks like this new direction they are taking is a solid and worthwile one.. So no they may want your money but not so bad that they really want to piss you off at the same time.. My .02 cents adjusted for inflation (which is about .0000000001 cent by now)

move the hub app or rename it. :)

lino.grandi
07-24-2013, 05:19 PM
Hi Lino,
It would ease my mind if somebody from Newtek were to go down on record as stating that NevronMotion, and ChronoSculpt were both developed internally by NewTek Employee's (dev Team) and not purchased from outside Developers. Developed from outside the company could mean wonky support (anyone remember Prem and his tool back in LW8?)
Regards~

Both tools are totally developed by the LightWave3D Group, no external developers involved.

- - - Updated - - -


Hoping Lino or someone from NT can answer. When does the Siggraph pricing officially end?

Lino- I tried sending you a PM about it but your inbox is full. Clean that out man!

That's more a question for Marketing! ;)

dwburman
07-24-2013, 05:21 PM
Hi Lino,
It would ease my mind if somebody from Newtek were to go down on record as stating that NevronMotion, and ChronoSculpt were both developed internally by NewTek Employee's (dev Team) and not purchased from outside Developers. Developed from outside the company could mean wonky support (anyone remember Prem and his tool back in LW8?)
Regards~

There's a very long thread with comments from the main programmer who made ChronoSculpt and he says it came out of his work on the new mesh engine in parts of 11.5. There's a link below that's probably in the middle of the conversation, but I think it'll answer your question. I didn't feel like looking for the exact post where he initially talked about ChronoSculpt's origins. :)

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136543-Siggraph-2013-New-Product-to-be-announced-!-What-s-all-this-then/page35

Virtualkey08
07-24-2013, 05:22 PM
move the hub app or rename it. :)

Thank you.. i thought it was something that simple, glad it is. :)

HarverdGrad
07-24-2013, 05:57 PM
There's a very long thread with comments from the main programmer who made ChronoSculpt and he says it came out of his work on the new mesh engine in parts of 11.5. There's a link below that's probably in the middle of the conversation, but I think it'll answer your question. I didn't feel like looking for the exact post where he initially talked about ChronoSculpt's origins. :)

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136543-Siggraph-2013-New-Product-to-be-announced-!-What-s-all-this-then/page35

Thanks for the link, and also thanks Lino for the response. :thumbsup:

LW_Will
07-25-2013, 01:42 AM
Hoping Lino or someone from NT can answer. When does the Siggraph pricing officially end?

Lino- I tried sending you a PM about it but your inbox is full. Clean that out man!

The Siggraph pricing ends on July 31... that is next Wednesday. The date was in the product announcement email.

DogBoy
07-25-2013, 03:24 AM
Well as I said above, I wouldn't have said ANYTHING if we weren't receiving SO MUCH in LW11 and SO LITTLE in 10. Not to mention I lost my lower-priced upgrades. And to reiterate - I think LW development (ie the LW developers) have been doing a TERRIFIC job. I'm happy with 11.5 and am using it in production. But when I am reminded of MORE being added to the current LW development cycle, it brings back that sour taste I had with management during 10.x. It hurts that Newtek was so callous with so many of us.

In fairness you opted out of lower-cost upgrades. You made a decision based on events at the time. Chuck didn't lie, Newtek had decided to stop the habit of multiple point releases. Since then the LW3DG has split off from Newtek (what the business details of this are only NT and LW3DG know) and LW3DG decided to reinstate the multi point release system. Time moves on and decisions were made and superceded. It's a pity that you got stung, but it is no different from buying LW11 and finding next month that if you buy LW11 you get a free upgrade to LW12, which you aren't now eligible for. Better deals always come along.

the LW10.1 issue and the current NevronMotion/Chronsculpt/11.6 situation show one thing: LW (and by extension the LW3DG) has to (had to as far as the 10.1 issue went) start making money back on Newteks investment. in the 10.x period it was by cutting down on point releases, and instating more regular ordinal releases, and LW3DG chose to give those extra point releases and diversify instead. 2 seperate decisions based on the same problem.

Also, it doesn't matter how Pixologic operates their upgrade policy. So they haven't asked their users for more money since their original purchase, so what? That is Pixologics business, not LW3DGs. They are a unique case, and only they know how long they can keep it up. At some point they will hit market saturation and they will have to stop the practise, but until then enjoy it.

Am I happy with things as they stand? Partly. I bought ChronoSculpt, because I can see a need for it. I'd like NevronMotion, but I don't have such a need right now. If that changes, I'll swallow the extra $100, but I'm OK with it being paid for (even if Rob had seemingly promised it). I'm more saddened by the fact that the new Mesh system in 11.5 has hit a bump and won't be pursued in the same way, but David Ikeda has explained why, and I'm content enough that the issues are not insurmountable, but will need to take a different tack and will take time.

If NevronMotion had been revealed to be a feature point of LW12 on Tuesday, instead of a plugin for LW11.6, a lot of people wouldn't have batted an eyelid (some would have still carped on, but some people just can't be pleased). It would have amounted to the same thing: You would have had to pay for it.

LW3DG have to make money. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

hrgiger
07-25-2013, 05:18 AM
The Siggraph pricing ends on July 31... that is next Wednesday. The date was in the product announcement email.

Ok Thanks Will. I haven't read that yet.

hrgiger
07-25-2013, 05:32 AM
I'm more saddened by the fact that the new Mesh system in 11.5 has hit a bump and won't be pursued in the same way, but David Ikeda has explained why, and I'm content enough that the issues are insurmountable, but will need to take a different tack and will take time.



That's not what I took from David's words at all. He just said they tried to put in the new mesh system before taking out the old and it didn't work. So now that new mesh system is in Chronosculpt. Once they can make it LightWave compatiable, they will do what David referred to as open heart surgery and take the old mesh system out and replace it with the new. He never said it was insurmountable. He just said the work was only about 40% done and it was going to take some time to make it work.

Cageman
07-25-2013, 06:12 AM
So we get 10 and 10.1 and are expected to be satisfied with it - and then we have a tremendous explosion in LW11 development? Come on Lino, you can't really wonder WHY I'm upset. You just came out with 11.6. And only 10.1? You must understand why the consternation.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136627-I-ll-pay-for-NevronMotion-and-love-it!&p=1334377&viewfull=1#post1334377

You opted out, and as such, you will have to pay a higher price compared to those of us who took the risk and invested.

DogBoy
07-25-2013, 08:01 AM
That's not what I took from David's words at all.

sorry, NOT insurmountable

hrgiger
07-25-2013, 09:50 AM
sorry, NOT insurmountable

Ah yes, I reread your earlier statement and from the context I could see what you meant to say.

mikala
07-25-2013, 10:14 AM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that. ;) a LW12 upgrade+NevronMotion special price is something different, that may come, or not.

What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.

And will never be on my purchase wishlist either.

Megalodon2.0
07-25-2013, 02:47 PM
Well... I have to say that despite my previous rant here the other day... I just checked out both new programs and they are (IMO) quite impressive. I've been seriously wanting a Motion Builder replacement (for YEARS) since I ONLY use it for retargeting. As much as I would LOVE to see this in Lightwave itself, I CAN see why they would want to sell it separately since not everyone NEEDS this sort of functionality. I've got an Optitrack 8 camera system (old version) so I would not want or need the Kinect support, but the Nevron features look like they would be a BIG help in getting mocap into LW. Damn... I think I may have to buy this.

gordonrobb
07-25-2013, 05:05 PM
As much as I would LOVE to see this in Lightwave itself, I CAN see why they would want to sell it separately since not everyone NEEDS this sort of functionality.

There are a ton of features in LW that I have no need for or interest in. In fact, that is the same with every app I use. That's why, when one came up I liked, and was given some information that it was an 'out of the box feature', I was looking forward to it.

Ok, shutting up now. :)

mikala
07-25-2013, 05:33 PM
Not even "in" the box Gordon.
Not even close to it....:)

robpowers3d
07-25-2013, 05:38 PM
Lino, we have saying "Never say Never" ;).

Afterall good luck with that system which looks very nice (congrats on that) but basically that kills idea of so many times marketed/preached by LW3dG/NT i.e. "All in Box" system, would be nice to phase out that on Marekting talk then 'coz it ain't true anymore :).

It actually is true. When we I say that what I mean is that the main pillars of 3D production are all included in LightWave from model to render. That doesn't mean and has never meant (sasquatch, fprime, turbulence, kray, etc...) that there would not be LightWave plugins that offer specific new features that are for targeted things. The good news is everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions but I will not slow down the innovation in LightWave or reduce the benefits to our users because of those opinions. I certainly appreciate your feedback but ultimately it is our call how we deliver our technology and in which way we package it. I stand by my statements about LightWave and invite anyone to really think about the amazing value that LightWave offers to our worldwide artist and studio community. There is no other package with a professional track record that offers the amazing value of LightWave even if you add to that the two new products. That is a fact.

Megalodon2.0
07-25-2013, 05:44 PM
There are a ton of features in LW that I have no need for or interest in. In fact, that is the same with every app I use. That's why, when one came up I liked, and was given some information that it was an 'out of the box feature', I was looking forward to it.

Ok, shutting up now. :)
That's very true - for everyone!

I wish this was in the 11.6 update, but as I've already indicated MANY times.... we don't get everything. :cry:

I guess we can just be happy that it's not even close to the cost of Motion Builder. ;) At the VERY least it looks VERY useful for those of us who use mocap.

mikala
07-25-2013, 05:48 PM
The "main pillars" as you say have been evolving and indeed changing across the board.
Sad to see Newtek going into the plugin business for its' own products. That says quite simply, at least to me, we are an incomplete package and had/choose to do this
in order, for you the user, to do what this plugin now offers with our product.

Phil
07-25-2013, 05:50 PM
That's very true - for everyone!

I wish this was in the 11.6 update, but as I've already indicated MANY times.... we don't get everything. :cry:

I guess we can just be happy that it's not even close to the cost of Motion Builder. ;) At the VERY least it looks VERY useful for those of us who use mocap.

Given that, it would be nice if the irate tone and forum rage could be avoided in future. It's not at all constructive. We've been here before and I've been disappointed by the relapse.

hrgiger
07-25-2013, 06:13 PM
I stand by my statements about LightWave and invite anyone to really think about the amazing value that LightWave offers to our worldwide artist and studio community. There is no other package with a professional track record that offers the amazing value of LightWave even if you add to that the two new products. That is a fact.

That may be true Rob and I think there aren't a lot of LW users who doubt the talent and dedication of the LW3DG to bring that value. I think Lewis and some other users including myself are just concerned about that some of these new additions may in fact be taking development resources away from main LW application. While I am comforted by David Ikeda's words of the fact that the Hydra Engine inside of Chronosculpt may eventually lead to the new geometry core inside of LW, I am also concerned because it has, in his words, taken him away from working on modeler.

The studios that use LW seem to be in the minority these days and no schools seem to be using LW to teach to students and I just wonder since LightWave offers such a tremendous value (and I believe that to be true so don't think I am trying to say something to the contrary), why that is? Personally I believe it to be because of some of the legacy issues of LW and some of us are just really looking to see some attention paid to those issues after all this time.

And for the record, I am probably investing in Chronosculpt tomorrow. I see the real value in that and what it can add to my experience with LightWave. So again, don't think I don't appreciate LW3DG's new ventures here shown at Siggraph. I mentioned in another thread how I've seen several LW users mention how LW12 is going to be a 'make or break' release for them. I can understand that. I love LightWave, I've been using it since 2001 and I'm quite comfortable in it. But there are some longstanding legacy issues that I've been waiting to see resolved. I bought into CORE because I saw a chance for these issues to finally be resolved with a new unified architecture. That didn't work out. When you took over and CORE was killed I wasn't sure how to take that, I didn't agree at all with the decision to give up on CORE. You could say I was wary of your intentions and wasn't sure that I wanted to continue using LightWave. But since you've taken over I have seen real improvements to the LightWave experience. Things are slicker, marketing is better, I sense that things are more organized and more planning into the way LightWave is developed. But I believed you when you told us after CORE that the destination was still the same.

I don't doubt that LW3DG has addressed some of the longstanding issues that have frustrated current users and also made some users decide to look for solutions in other software packages. And maybe you even have a roadmap to fixing them. I think we just want to see some sign of that. When we are waiting for a reveal at Siggraph from teasers given to us from LW3DG, many of us assumed it would be about changes or additions to LW itself. So even though the new products may be good in themselves, I think they also raise the question on how they are affecting significant progress on LW itself.

Megalodon2.0
07-25-2013, 06:19 PM
<snip>That may be true Rob and I think there aren't a lot of LW users who doubt the talent and dedication of the LW3DG to bring that value.

Well said.

Ernest
07-25-2013, 10:06 PM
Just to throw another opinion, I think LW users should get an additional discount. The discount is already pretty large, but it's the same that all max/maya/non-LW users are getting. Since we're already part of the family, we should get another $100 off.


I actually don't think we should, but I thought it's worth a try ha ha! We'd probably get them both, if they bite.

geo_n
07-25-2013, 10:17 PM
Just to throw another opinion, I think LW users should get an additional discount. The discount is already pretty large, but it's the same that all max/maya/non-LW users are getting. Since we're already part of the family, we should get another $100 off.


I actually don't think we should, but I thought it's worth a try ha ha! We'd probably get them both, if they bite.

Since Newtek is going the module route here's some more ideas. Discounts would be good for the many possible modules that could be sold separately.

1. A new improved Nuke, Fusion, AE link sold as a separate module - since not everyone needs to comp work

2. new powerful particle engine to plug into lw - not everybody uses particles this could sell potentially

3. new motionmixer type plugin - maybe for version 2.0 of neveronlw sold as an upgrade to version 1.0

lwanmtr
07-25-2013, 10:24 PM
Indeed, I feel the LW3DG has done an amazing job of getting new features into Lightwave, despite alot of hurdles that needed to be jumped to get it to where it is today. and yes, I'll probably be getting Chronosculpt before the price goes up.

But, as Hrgiger points out, I and others just have concerns that resources are being spread thin. David Ikeda's lengthy explainations have helped me to understand the state of the mesh engine and why we haven't seen that much needed improvement yet. Yes, Chronosculpt is cool, but is it part of the process to get the new mesh engine? If so, great..if not, then it delays a new Lightwave (yep, we're impatient peoples...lol). For myself, I would like to know more about how development resources will be handled between the (now) three applications, with what I'm guessing is not a large development team.

The idea of NewTek producing extras is not that big an issue for me (though at first I was a saddened that they werent included). I think it was a kind to most of us that Nevron and Chronosculpt werent included, because we're just used to that.

Lewis
07-26-2013, 02:30 AM
It actually is true. When we I say that what I mean is that the main pillars of 3D production are all included in LightWave from model to render. That doesn't mean and has never meant (sasquatch, fprime, turbulence, kray, etc...) that there would not be LightWave plugins that offer specific new features that are for targeted things. The good news is everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions but I will not slow down the innovation in LightWave or reduce the benefits to our users because of those opinions. I certainly appreciate your feedback but ultimately it is our call how we deliver our technology and in which way we package it. I stand by my statements about LightWave and invite anyone to really think about the amazing value that LightWave offers to our worldwide artist and studio community. There is no other package with a professional track record that offers the amazing value of LightWave even if you add to that the two new products. That is a fact.

Ofcourse you can sell it as you see fit, that's your right and i respect that (i said i wish you all best and want you see sell thousands of it, i really do), heck you can sell each tool/button/feature separately if you wish but that isn't "all out of box" anymore, it simply isn't. 3rd party plugins from other companies is simply that, 3rd party but plugin from NT is not 3rd party, it's still "same" party but split from app and made it modular so LW isn't "all in box" anymore like it or not that's a Fact now :). All in box for me means all tools (regarding LW, not speaking about other standalone apps) developed by NT/LW3DG are within LW purchase and not + addons.

As for your explanation of "main pillars" well yes you did incorporate that speech but just recently, at NAB you said that this is INCORPORATED in LW 11.5 when we purchase it, nobody said it's additional and that we need to buy separate software to make it work (nor it was supposed to be 11.6 but 11.5 as you said (probably meant 11.5.1) so it's there. Right ? You can tell me that's not misleading ? Not even a bit ?
check your video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFGFXEo2Tk

Your words if i understood/typed them right (around 1minute forward) - "... Now the cool thing about 11.5 is that this is incorporated when you purchase the software, it's... there is nothing special you have to do to make this work, we've incorporated this directly in the software...."

And nobody is question LW package here so no need to be defensive about LW usability value or quality, I'm using it 20+ years so i know what it can and what it cant' do pretty well, the fact that I'm sticking to it for so loong is it's quality so that's never been in the question and yes it's one of best values at market, so no need to switch topic from main issue here which is "all in box" which IMHO is not true anymore, now it's modular, and i'll repeat myself, that's FINE if you want to sell it that way, it's your product you can do with it whatever you wish and think it's best, I'm just objecting that marketing which ain't true anymore or at least falls under Gray area :).

As for development i agree with Steve (hrgiger) i don't see how same team (or now slightly increased but not in modeling DEV area) can develop 3 apps and still say it's not drawing any focus from LW. Since modeling in 11.6 got not a single tool/feature from 11.5 at last siggraph (11 months and not a single tool added to modeling ??) it's pretty obvious now that it can't be maintained at same speed of developing 'coz otherwise we would at least see few more modeling tools (or fixed old tools) at new Mesh system (regardless of doe sit seam like bad idea now it's been said last time that's great idea and it'll WORK and it does work for new tools and it's great to have some speed in modeling even if is not near chronoSculpt speed) - hint you could add/fix - interactive array, radial array, bend, chamfer update (to replace rounder), updated fracture...... Just a few tools to help us wait for big changes which we don't have idea how long we need to wait for 'coz this is like 3rd change of direction/approach in last 5-6 years.

And at end I thank you for great Siggraph show and all the interivews, I've watched 90% of stream from it all three days so it was still great show (not so like last year 'coz there was more tools in LW back then but still great) and appreciate your time to chime in and explain in from your POV. and yes thanks to whole DEV Team for 11.6 freebie, that's generous of NT/LW3DG.

gordonrobb
07-26-2013, 03:00 AM
I am completely with Lewis here. I'm not irate. I'm not just wishing I could get every cool new thing that was developed. I believed, and I seriously don't see how anyone can see those words meant something else, that the ability to real time mocap a person, using Kinect, would be included, without the need for anything other than the connect.

I love LW. I stuck with it through Core and genuinely believe it offers excellent value vs what it can do. It competes with products significantly more expensive. But my view of its value isn't what the issue is, and I wish people would stop saying it is.

lardbros
07-26-2013, 05:52 AM
I've seen a hint of Megalodon 2.0 being positive here... I think the world may end! ;)

Nice to see though, and I very much doubt he doesn't give credit unless it's due... Newtek should be very proud! ;)

prometheus
07-26-2013, 07:27 AM
NevronMotion will never be implemented in 12. It is something separate, and it will stay like that. ;) a LW12 upgrade+NevronMotion special price is something different, that may come, or not.

What you can be sure of, is that NevronMotion will never be in LightWave as a standard feature.

Lw12 upgrade+nevronMotion sounds fair, depends how the deal looks like at that time, and what else is Inside of lightwave.

I personally canīt jump in and argue about this whole issue, havenīt looked it through that much, it is definitly an awkward situation that so many people has perceived the kinect implementation to be within 11.5 or something like that.
whoīs wrong and whoīs right? there is clearly some form of communictation errors here, maybe it is necessary to analyze that and see if it can be made clearer next time, to avoid that confusion..that is utterly important
in order to hold on to customers.

May I ask why It never will be a standard feature?, is it because of the bussiness proposal model for customers now? or is it the lack of lightwaveīs internal structure and code that prevents it? straight answer?
Michael

prometheus
07-26-2013, 07:40 AM
It actually is true. When we I say that what I mean is that the main pillars of 3D production are all included in LightWave from model to render. That doesn't mean and has never meant (sasquatch, fprime, turbulence, kray, etc...) that there would not be LightWave plugins that offer specific new features that are for targeted things. The good news is everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions but I will not slow down the innovation in LightWave or reduce the benefits to our users because of those opinions. I certainly appreciate your feedback but ultimately it is our call how we deliver our technology and in which way we package it. I stand by my statements about LightWave and invite anyone to really think about the amazing value that LightWave offers to our worldwide artist and studio community. There is no other package with a professional track record that offers the amazing value of LightWave even if you add to that the two new products. That is a fact.

You know what, I agree completly with you here, it is a great value...
But..maybe my expectations on this smaller update version became hyped, sure..nevron motion and chronosculpt aside as plugins...fair enough...if...only if this upgrade had shown a little more, Im just saying for me personally
this upgrade seems to be one of the weakest Ivé received.
(it aint easy to satisfy us all:) )

Have to keep my hopes up for Lightwave12 then, and no matter what I feel about this release, before that I think you and the team has done great stuff and I hope you continue to do so.

Michael

Megalodon2.0
07-26-2013, 04:38 PM
I've seen a hint of Megalodon 2.0 being positive here... I think the world may end! ;)

Nice to see though, and I very much doubt he doesn't give credit unless it's due... Newtek should be very proud! ;)

Actually... for the most part - with the exception of several recent posts - I've been very positive. In fact I've NEVER been negative towards LW OR the developers. LW was and still is a VERY useful piece of software. My personal gripe has NEVER been with LW - just management decisions. And these two new programs - Nevron and CS - look very good indeed. I'd like to get both but I just don't have the resources right now. I will TRY to get Nevron before the special runs out, but I'm not counting on it. I'm hoping that Nevron will end up making my life easier - it certainly looks like it will. Though learning and doing takes ALLOT of time.

For me, LW11 has been great. I can't complain. I recently used Bullet dynamics with Fracture for the first time and it worked well. And I'm even looking forward to LW12 - though I do wish that both of these new programs were part of LW12. I also think that having the developers engage us in the forum is VERY GOOD and helpful to understanding where LW is and where it is going - and FAR better than "marketspeak." I hope that this continues and is part of the regular exchange between the userbase and the LW3DG. That in itself will help LW with old AND new users.

lardbros
07-26-2013, 05:19 PM
I fully understand... We've all had to deal with the poor management from the past, and it feels like it could easily slip back in a moment if it's not carefully controlled by the LW group. I can't really fault any decision that Rob and the gang have made... I know David Ikeda (I think it is) saying that he's not that pleased with the implementation of the new mesh system in Modeller, but the new tools and the speed is nice, and maybe a glimpse of the future! :-) I think he's probably a perfectionist... And too hard on himself!

Nice to see you happy though Megalodon... Things are definitely looking up!
The bullet demo that Jen showed, with a cloth simply being used to push a human head out of a torso was imply brilliant... Such a great way to show off the cool new tools.

monovich
07-26-2013, 07:28 PM
In my line of work I doubt I'll use Nevronmotion or Chronosculpt so I'm glad I'm not paying extra to have them in the program by default. Optional costs are great. Buy it if you need it.

To say that LW is becoming Autodesk is beyond laughable.

geo_n
07-26-2013, 07:49 PM
Since Newtek is going the module route here's some more ideas. Discounts would be good for the many possible modules that could be sold separately.

1. A new improved Nuke, Fusion, AE link sold as a separate module - since not everyone needs to comp work

2. new powerful particle engine to plug into lw - not everybody uses particles this could sell potentially

3. new motionmixer type plugin - maybe for version 2.0 of neveronlw sold as an upgrade to version 1.0

Another idea to sell. A really great working stable hair solution could be developed as a plugin for all appz that could also be used inside lightwave. These hair plugins sell a lot in other appz. Not everyone needs them but it could be sold as a module for lightwave.

prometheus
07-26-2013, 09:06 PM
Another idea to sell. A really great working stable hair solution could be developed as a plugin for all appz that could also be used inside lightwave. These hair plugins sell a lot in other appz. Not everyone needs them but it could be sold as a module for lightwave.


Another idea to sell. A really great working stable hair solution could be developed as a plugin for all appz that could also be used inside lightwave. These hair plugins sell a lot in other appz. Not everyone needs them but it could be sold as a module for lightwave.

o no...nr 2..brings fear that we donīt even get particle inside of lightwave working with bullet engine, if that doesnīt happen..well, then Ill start working with modo particles definitly..or o houdini.
Advanced particle correction in conjunction with chronosculpt to further control dynamic simulations together with the other corrected dynamics is a different thing though, but general particle control and interaction
should work within lightwave and the bullet system, not as a new module.

I could think of a very high advanced particle system for other types of effects though, that would require billions of particles like the spore engine for solaris etc, maybe that is something you had in mind?
I recall Tim Dunn (aurora) had plans and might still have on such things, but I know he also had full time with other things at university..I think.

There are tonīs to be done with the native particle system anyway, noise fields..that is so called localized fractal noise distortions within the particle system that doesnīt require dynamic simulation, and that can reference a moving ref null or preferably
multi ref systems, I know we could get very sweet particle effects from that, right now you simply cant use a null and move trough a particle field and get a fractal texture layer to reference that when distorting the velocity vectors.
Another enhancement would be the cooking of the particles to settle much faster, millions of tiny sprites renders quite fast ..it is the handling of the particles initially that is a bogger, they did remove the 1 million limit which is good, but donīt stop there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpvZyikRqY

The all so longed for distance between particle gradient would help everything from liquids to fade voxels, fade my own space angel effects if it also could calculate the points in subpatches where geometry is distorted the most and have the distance between particle gradient in dissolve or density channel and let that fade particle gaps away...or a particle density, point density calculated fade gradient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBYUqMucoBw

if it would be absolutly impossible with the current lightwave code to enhance the particle cooking and amount of particles, then I might surrender, krakatoa folks has no plans or interests in cooking it for lightwave as I know of.

off topic...but anyway.
P.S I wouldnīt mind buying in to a spore type of plugin, from third party or the lightwave groups own modules, but be careful about the price for lightwave users and distinct it to be cheaper for such
users and more expensive when buying the module standalone:)


Michael

geo_n
07-26-2013, 11:07 PM
o no...nr 2..brings fear that we donīt even get particle inside of lightwave working with bullet engine,

Not everyone uses particles, hypervoxels just like not everyone does character stuff, mocap stuff. So why not develop an uber particle, hypervoxel engine without worrying about legacy code in layout then connect it as a plugin like chro, nev then sell it to those that want it. 200-400usd seems like the magic price point people are willing to pay.

Megalodon2.0
07-26-2013, 11:51 PM
Not everyone uses particles, hypervoxels just like not everyone does character stuff, mocap stuff. So why not develop an uber particle, hypervoxel engine without worrying about legacy code in layout then connect it as a plugin like chro, nev then sell it to those that want it. 200-400usd seems like the magic price point people are willing to pay.

I agree. IF LW3DG is going the plugin route, then why not compartmentalize the various systems? Many people have already said they don't NEED CS or Nevron, but many of us would really like it. The same with particles - many don't NEED it so they don't CARE if it's developed. Of course the problem with that is the same one that C4D users complain about - they have to upgrade EVERY module when the main program is updated and it gets costly. Hopefully there will be a happy medium.

CaptainMarlowe
07-26-2013, 11:52 PM
If it were the case (particles outside of LW), I would quit Lightwave at once for another more complete package. Although a hobbyist, I use particles for a lot of things : clouds, waterfalls, fountains, lasers, explosions, etc. Having to pay 200$ more for that ? No way. That would open the road to the C4D path. And why not an internal renderer without radiosity, and you have to pay 200$ more to benefit from radiosity. Or a VPR add-on ? Mocap/retargeting is different, very specialized, and often goes thourgh third parties softwares like Motion Builder. Particles are used in a whole bunch of scenes. They must be inside the package, or it is not a complete one.

geo_n
07-27-2013, 12:13 AM
User mileage varies. Viz people rarely use particles but they might use character stuff to populate scenes. Modellers don't use particles nor mocap stuff. Vfx people uses particles but don't do much character stuff, if they did its another package. It varies.
Since we haven't seen good progress with particles and hypervoxels, the incentive to develop it is not there. Maybe if there's cash involved it would progress. Or maybe its the legacy code that's holding progress down.
In a couple of months chro developed at a fast pace, something similar could be done with particles, hair, etc, when legacy stuff is not bogging things down. Ofcourse this will not be free and can actually be a plugin for other appz which has more revenue than just developing for lw which is a very small market.

prometheus
07-27-2013, 12:21 AM
I donīt think it would be wise to go module version for the sake of module versions or bussiness sales in general, if you can combine that there was an incitament and necessary step to do because of limits in the old lw architecture in
order to create modules like chronosculpt, thatīs one thing.

It should be the workflow task ahead of people that are working with it that decides wether or not it must be split in modules, or if it is the best solution to implement it within the main application, I do not want one module for
UI, one for python, one for hypervoxels, and a separate module for particles..If I start to get such dreams about lightwave...then Iīll probably sell the lightwave stuff and go full time with houdini...or modo/cinema

Michael

Megalodon2.0
07-27-2013, 12:52 AM
Perhaps it would depend upon the cost of the base package AND the modules?

What if the LW base package were $795 and specific modules were variably priced? Let's say particles are STILL in LW, but as geo said - they develop an UBER particle system module. For me personally I don't like the idea of modules either - because I don't like how C4D handles it. At the same time, I don't want LW to go higher and higher in price. Where it is now - IMO - is tops. I don't want to see it go higher. Then again - even WITH separate plugin modules they may still raise the price. I guess in the end it depends on HOW they develop these systems and what they want to charge for them. For some people who have wanted mocap in LW for a LONG time, $200 to $300 MORE may be too much and not what they were expecting. For me - at this point - I've been waiting for a Motion Builder alternative for SO LONG that $200 (or thereabouts) is not too high. But I do understand that others will feel differently - and they would not be wrong.

Thomas Leitner
07-27-2013, 01:59 AM
....
Advanced particle correction in conjunction with chronosculpt to further control dynamic simulations together with the other corrected dynamics is a different thing though, but general particle control and interaction
should work within lightwave and the bullet system, not as a new module....

Without a usable possibility to correct particles and other dynamic simulations within Lightwave, Lightwaves dynamics will stay in its infancy and never recognized as a serious competitor for advanced FX work.

Where will this lead?

It appears curious that Lino Grandi asked the forum members where integration is necessary and the next thing LWgroup does is to split LW into three apps:


Something I would like to discuss in this thread are some practical examples of when integration is really important.

Let's work together to make a list of situations when you really would want something we have in Modeler to be in Layout and vice versa.

To put it straight: I have no problem with the extra cost of Chronosculpt. My doubt obtain the future of Lightwave when LWgroup says that important features never will be in Lightwave (Rob Powers mentioned in the censored thread that no Chronosculpt feature will come into Lightwave).

ciao
Thomas

LW_Will
07-27-2013, 12:00 PM
It appears curious that Lino Grandi asked the forum members where integration is necessary and the next thing LWgroup does is to split LW into three apps:


Really?? Split into three apps? Lightwave 11.6 is a point upgrade. Nevron is a PLUGIN FOR LIGHTWAVE! and ChronoSculpt is a standalone program.

Breaking in two is hardly fragmentation.

mikala
07-27-2013, 12:09 PM
Censored thread?
Hopefully this thread can stay out of that category.
I only started this as debate/discussion of why I think it was a bad idea to implement this way.

Waves of light
07-27-2013, 01:31 PM
Goodness me, some of the stuff in here at the moment is soul destroying.

It's great that we have our opinions and get to present them on openly, but isn't time to stop harping about the past. CORE is dead, it didn't work (and from the other thread) didn't seem like it was going to. So a business decision was made. I was given all the options, as others were... refund, stick with it, upgrades set at $395 for the next 5 updates, Lino's DVD, t-shirt (which I know some didn't get) - I mean seriously, how much did one single person on here actually lose through the demise of CORE? It cannot have been hundreds of pounds or dollars, given NT stance. I can't think of anything else NT (and now LW3DG) could have offered and still be in business today. Seriously look at some of the major companies that have gone down the pan in the past 2 years since the recession. We wouldn't even be talking about this if it hadn't been for the rethink and change in direction... we'd be stuck with 9.6 and no updates, no development, nothing, in my opinion. I think Lino put it best in another thread 'time to draw a line under the past, this is the future of LW' (or something along those lines anyway).

So let's talk about the future.. NM and CS. Yep, I was a bit pissed with CS as I thought some parts of it should have been in the bullet dynamics in LW11.6. I too had seen the NAB video and was under the impression that it Kinect motion capture was going to be included in LW11.6 or 12, but that was mostly speculation and misunderstanding on my part, and to which Rob has clarified the situation in several threads, enough for me to be happy with it.

And to the cost of CS and NM and them being separate apps/programs/plugins. I don't need them right now, I don't think I will require them for any future projects and to be honest, I can't afford them right now. But if I do require them, then one job is going to pay for at least one, maybe both. And that's where I came to realise that the decision NT/LW3DG have taken is the correct one, from my point of view anyway, which is that of a freelance designer. What if they had added it all in with LW11.6, skipped the point upgrade and made LW12 with NW and CS and raised the price to $2193 - yes I would still have my locked in upgrade, but what if I need extra seats, I would be paying for stuff I didn't need and would need to find the extra cash. We would have had loads of people saying... 'well I don't need those extra plugins/software', 'why do I need to pay for something I don't need or want right now'.

No, to me, this model works for all types of LW users. Big production teams who require Motion capture and timeline sculpting changes will be easily able to afford the extras. Small VFX houses too. Freelancers, like me, can wait to see if they need them and still get extra goodies FREE in the latest version of LW11.6. Even purchasing them all together, afresh, is still less than a single seat of 3DS Max, Maya or C4D.

And god knows what these threads must look like to the outside world, users of other software... new potential users.

Lewis
07-27-2013, 01:32 PM
Really?? Split into three apps? Lightwave 11.6 is a point upgrade. Nevron is a PLUGIN FOR LIGHTWAVE! and ChronoSculpt is a standalone program.

Breaking in two is hardly fragmentation.

Did you forgot that LW is made of 2 separate apps (3 if we count HUB). Modeler and Layout are separate = 2 apps + now plugin + chronos. So all in all it's at least 3 apps now and if we streach it little bit then it's 5 :)

dwburman
07-27-2013, 02:33 PM
You forgot to mention the t-shirt. Since the LWG can only ever sells is LightWave then the t-shirt also counts asa LightWave app bringing the total number of LightWave apps up to 6.... unless you count lwsn, and the lscript helper apps.

:p

erikals
07-27-2013, 02:34 PM
chronos is meant as a seperate application, just like any other app, it's not part of LightWave, and won't be for a long time.

the plugin is not an app, so it's still down to 2, imo.

Lewis
07-27-2013, 02:37 PM
chronos is meant as a seperate application, just like any other app, it's not part of LightWave, and won't be for a long time.

the plugin is not an app, so it's still down to 2, imo.

Does *.exe stands for separate app in your book or what do you call app then?





Hint HUB.exe :p

erikals
07-27-2013, 03:02 PM
sure, but it's running in the background, and i never touch it, so not something i really care about.

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/tongue.gif http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

Lewis
07-27-2013, 03:13 PM
sure, but it's running in the background, and i never touch it, so not something i really care about.

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/tongue.gif http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

You use it or not doesn't change fact that it's separate app :p.

And it has purpose (HUB), very important one (sadly it fails too often in it's task so i keep it off :()

erikals
07-27-2013, 03:44 PM
sure, if you wanna get technical about it.
i got other things to worry about though, other LightWave stuff i'd like fixed.

to hub, or not to hub, that, is the question...

ok,... it's not, nobody wants the hubbie... poor hubbie...

bobakabob
07-27-2013, 05:57 PM
Really wise business decision to make Chronosculpt an app independent of Lightwave. Judging from feedback there are animators who aren't using LW who can see the benefit. CS may well draw more artists out there into LW. There's no doubting the LW3d group are on a creative roll and rather than getting completely consumed reinventing the wheel they're rightly looking to create brand new plugins quickly with universal appeal. Brilliant marketing strategy.

Having said that I'm a little disappointed there doesn't seem to be a 'loyalty discount' or special offer for owners of LW but maybe this will come in time. If CS development stalls or is wrongfooted by rivals it will probably be absorbed into LW just like Maxon's Bodypaint was once ZB appeared on the scene. Hopefully this won't happen but LW3DG should keep its user base sweet.

As a Zbrush fan I think it's remarkable the LW3D group have leapfrogged Pixologic and devised a modest yet extremely innovative and powerful app which enables animateable sculpting. Those of us who have been pleading for point animation in Layout now have this in the form of an ingenious plugin for a few 100$. If CS stays ahead of the game and Pixologic don't incorporate similar technology LW3G could grow their user base significantly.

How long will it be before we see character animation in Zbrush? Layers have morphing control but there's nothing quite like CS there yet. LW3D should really work hard on CS and develop new brushes, alphas and the capacity to import different sculpted versions of a model (with same poly count) in sequence for animation.

Great to see innovation in LW rather than catchup... Just like Metanurbs and Hypervoxels created waves back in the late 90s.

Thomas Leitner
07-28-2013, 06:18 AM
Really?? Split into three apps? Lightwave 11.6 is a point upgrade. Nevron is a PLUGIN FOR LIGHTWAVE! and ChronoSculpt is a standalone program.

Breaking in two is hardly fragmentation.

and



chronos is meant as a seperate application, just like any other app, it's not part of LightWave, and won't be for a long time.

the plugin is not an app, so it's still down to 2, imo.

CS is another app. And itīs features are part of a 3D workflow. So the LW pipeline is split into 3 apps (modeler, layout and CS).
If you say it is meant as a seperate app, I have to say modeler is a seperate app, too. So no need to talk about integration any more.

Remeber that important features like correcting bullet dynamics be absent in LW (and never will be implemented, like they are in CS, as Rob Powers mentioned in the censored thread).

ciao
Thomas

erikals
07-28-2013, 07:13 AM
if Chronos was integrated in LightWave you wouldn't notice the difference when working with it.
that's all i'm saying...

erikals
07-28-2013, 07:25 AM
dang, just realized now how easy it is to overwrite that mocap data... !!!
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/36352093 6:35 into video

no wonder Nevron-Motion was getting attention!

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/eek.gif http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

Thomas Leitner
07-28-2013, 07:28 AM
if Chronos was integrated in LightWave you wouldn't notice the difference when working with it.
that's all i'm saying...

I would notice the difference when working with Layout!

I think you speak about their geo engine "Hydra", but thatīs only one thing of CS the other thing is it function (which is the part that will not find itīs way into LW, "Hydra" will come to LW if they could handle it).

And so the 3D workflow of LW is split into 3 apps.

ciao
Thomas

erikals
07-28-2013, 07:39 AM
afaik, for cleaning up mocap, you might wanna check out these two >

Keystrainer (32bit)
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/keystrainer

Key Reducer (32/64)
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/key-reducer

Megalodon2.0
07-28-2013, 03:05 PM
dang, just realized now how easy it is to overwrite that mocap data... !!!
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/36352093 6:35 into video

no wonder Nevron-Motion was getting attention!
Thanks for that. This looks just like how Larry overlaid additional animation on top of mocap using IKBoost - but MUCH easier.

Now there's really no way I CANNOT get this plugin.

JamesCurtis
07-28-2013, 06:27 PM
Just wondering, Ummm ... In the Nevron Motion Siggraph video demos, the announcement was made of the "Bounce" character being included with the purchase of the Nevron Motion software. Any idea where to get it? Did not see it in any of the downloads for the product!! Having it would go a long way in helping to work with the product.

Greenlaw
07-28-2013, 06:47 PM
Lino mentioned yesterday that new content will be available soon--I assumed he meant the content shown at Siggraph, maybe more.

At the moment I'm more interested in the face stuff myself. I would love to see how they set up the demo head at the show.

G.

JamesCurtis
07-29-2013, 08:30 AM
Thanks for the heads up.

GandB
07-29-2013, 08:40 AM
I haven't really checked it out yet; but is there anything in it, that would mimic XSI's facebot?

Greenlaw
07-29-2013, 08:58 AM
If you watch any of the Siggraph 2013 LightWave streams (http://www.ustream.tv/lightwave3d) featuring Nevron Motion, you can see the face demonstration. For a live performance switching on-the-fly between different presenters and attendees, I'm surprised it looks this good. I really want to play with it in a controlled environment and see what it can really do.

I imagine you'll need to manually dial in additional morphs for proper lipsyncing (tongue and lips animation) but even so, I can see how this could be a big time saver in certain productions. Being able to add more 'character' to the face capture using ChronoSculpt (also shown in the demo) is intriguing too.

G.

GandB
07-29-2013, 09:36 AM
That's good. I can see it's use in some cutscenes in games.

Tranimatronic
07-29-2013, 10:50 AM
"I would love to see how they set up the demo head at the show."

+1

cresshead
07-29-2013, 11:54 AM
"I would love to see how they set up the demo head at the show."

+1



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toS3sYyt0gE

sorry about the low audio, i JUST came home and saw the demo on unsleeping my mac so quickly grabbed the vid using quicktime

Tranimatronic
07-29-2013, 12:35 PM
That is Awesome !
I can see I'm going to have some fun with this ! ;)
I'm expecting to have to use a specific rig like the full body capture one. Is this coming in the next round of content? Lino?

erikals
07-29-2013, 05:27 PM
Thanks for that. This looks just like how Larry overlaid additional animation on top of mocap using IKBoost - but MUCH easier.

Now there's really no way I CANNOT get this plugin.

there is a ikbooster vs nevronmotion thread, that looks a bit into both options, you might wanna check that one out.

AbstractTech3D
07-29-2013, 05:31 PM
I don't think I'm going to be able NevronMotion afford it before the 31st, very unfortunately. (Any chance of extending the offer?? Please!!)

However, good on NT for producing an alternative to the horrendously expensive monopolistic MB. (Exactly what I advocated roughly 9 months ago!) This could be a game changer.

I really do look forward to playing with this in the future. If (and that's a really big 'if') it all works well (full body plus facial capture) - it will be well well worth it. Some more demo videos really would not go amiss.

Davewriter
07-29-2013, 07:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toS3sYyt0gE

sorry about the low audio, i JUST came home and saw the demo on unsleeping my mac so quickly grabbed the vid using quicktime

That was one I didn't get an answer that clicked for me... or maybe I was drifting off a bit...
At the side stage they had one setup that was running all the time, for folks to play with. It was really setup for the full body setup and was being used to help attract people to the booth. I had jumped up (well, I was actually invited up) I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did respond. If you moved too quickly it would miss things, such as if I flapped my arm quickly as if flying... no, it didn't like that.
When I did ask about that face version, Dave told me just to get closer to the Kinect. Once you get close enough to the unit, it starts to scan for a face. I'm kind of tall, so I was all but crawling around to get into position, but it did pick me up. There was no charactor in the correct position for me to drive, but I was able to see the wire frame following me.

So I had one person kind of gloss over a bit what it could do...
And I had another person hint that it could do both face & body at the same time.

I'm guessing that "currently" it is one or the other - but possibly when Kinect 2 come out...?

Megalodon2.0
07-30-2013, 04:00 PM
Has anyone gotten this to work with facial capture? I wasn't planning on getting a Kinect but that facial capture looks pretty darn good. MY main reason for buying Nevron (yes, I bought it yesterday) was for retargeting. Haven't tried that yet but once I get the workflow down it should streamline my workflow instead of going through Motion Builder. I'd like to know how they set up the face model to accept the motion capture from Nevron. Hopefully we'll get some good content data that will help.

mikala
07-30-2013, 04:13 PM
You'll probably have to buy it too :)

erikals
07-30-2013, 04:30 PM
for fast facial animation TAFA should be good, but the neck twist in NeverMotion is very welcome.

wonder about what Dave mentioned though, can NM track both body and face at the same time... ?

Megalodon2.0
07-30-2013, 05:38 PM
You'll probably have to buy it too :)
I wish Nevron was included with LW as well, but once Newtek makes that kind of decision they will NOT change their minds. The only thing they MAY do is lower the price and/or offer specials at holidays and when LW12 ships, etc. I just bought it because I've been wanting a Motion Builder replacement for a VERY LONG time. And working inside LW is worth it to me - but I do understand that for some it would be a nice addition, but not essential.


for fast facial animation TAFA should be good, but the neck twist in NeverMotion is very welcome.

wonder about what Dave mentioned though, can NM track both body and face at the same time... ?

Definitely. I'm using TAFA constantly and it has been a WONDERFUL program. I'm not really an animator and it makes me look so much better than I normally would be. But... motion capture seems to offer FAR more nuanced movement than I (as a non-animator) can get. If Nevron facial capture doesn't work that well, TAFA will do just fine. I'd just like facial animation to look better than my skills will allow. Optitrack motion capture has done wonders for me - animation that would have taken me YEARS has taken weeks. I'd like to do the same with facial capture.

erikals
07-30-2013, 06:05 PM
i'm thinking of NeverMotion like a sketch animation, good for making rough tests, or also as an animation reference.
it's quite incredible just how much life the character gets with mocap.

personally might be jumping directly to iPi instead though, until Kinect 2 is supported in LightWave.
then again, NeverMotion has some nice features, and can certainly act as a very cheap MotionBuilder alternative.

TAFA is the thing, but still, i'd love to be able to do it all realtime, or near realtime.
as far as that goes, this looks nice, not 100%, but quite nice... >

i bet it's cheap... :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=7bX0qpsLfpE

Megalodon2.0
07-30-2013, 07:04 PM
i'm thinking of NeverMotion like a sketch animation, good for making rough tests, or also as an animation reference.
it's quite incredible just how much life the character gets with mocap.
Exactly! It's a great starting point. But I also agree that mocap does in fact make it easier to imbue "life" into the character - one thing that my abilities (at this time) cannot translate into TAFA.

personally might be jumping directly to iPi instead though, until Kinect 2 is supported in LightWave.
then again, NeverMotion has some nice features, and can certainly act as a very cheap MotionBuilder alternative.
I have an 8 camera Optitrack setup for full body capture - and I can use the same cameras for facial capture - but the cost for the software alone is $2k. And it requires markers. The capture that seems to be available from Nevron and the Kinect seems like a VERY good starting point, and the Siggraph presentation was impressive.

TAFA is the thing, but still, i'd love to be able to do it all realtime, or near realtime.
as far as that goes, this looks nice, not 100%, but quite nice... >

i bet it's cheap... :P
Yeah, I've seen that markerless mocap. Another VERY good idea. If you have voice actors all over the world, it's much easier to get them to videotape themselves and FTP the files where you can then put them thru the markerless mocap system and output some decent mocap files. For me, the Kinect way would be just myself voicing my voice actors dialog in sync. Not as elegant, but definitely less expensive.