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fabmedia
11-11-2003, 05:28 PM
I'm trying to freeze time and move around a water splash (particles). Is there anyway I can do this?

Arlen

SamuraiSlayer
11-11-2003, 06:59 PM
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fabmedia
11-11-2003, 11:00 PM
Hmmmm... I think I'm lost here. I'm getting a greyed out area. It is the above the Morph Target?

Arlen

SamuraiSlayer
11-11-2003, 11:17 PM
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toby
11-12-2003, 02:30 AM
uuhhh... Morphing and Hypervoxels are 2 different things, they can be used together but normally aren't

SamuraiSlayer
11-12-2003, 07:03 AM
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MiniFireDragon
11-12-2003, 07:10 AM
What I would do is, if u aren't planning on have the water move while u move around is to save it as a new scene file. Key the frame you want, delete all other keys. go back to frame zero (don't really have to) set a key frame, erase the other key frame, animate camera.

If u want to have the water moving slowly while u move around it, you need to time stretch the animation and then move your camera around the image.

If you intended on doing this as one big animation (normal speed then flip into slow motion and move around drop and back to normal) U will have to only stretch the time you slow down in. A much easier way is to simply render out your normal sequences and edit in the slow motion.

Hope I understood what u were asking.

Edited--
I just now realized what your problem is, hehe, the above won't work unless it is an actual model... I am going back to sleep now.

SamuraiSlayer
11-12-2003, 07:45 AM
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fabmedia
11-13-2003, 11:25 AM
The water is hitting a water bottle and creates the splash. I created this image for a package design I did. Now what I want to do is implement that frame and spind the camera around it (about 20) while particles are stopped at frame 13.

Arlen

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 11:30 AM
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fabmedia
11-13-2003, 12:01 PM
I've set up 7 emmiters to do the dirty work of spewing the particles at the waterbottle. I've not used wind or gravity to create the motion, but the velocity of the emmiter. The particles are set on a # per second and I'm not too sure how to freeze them at frame 13.

Arlen

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:16 PM
How does this work for you? I made up this simple scene to show how i froze and panned around some particles. Let me know if that's the effect you're going for I can tell you how I set it up. Warning: It's very tedious work.... Sorry if the gif is slow to load, I tried to make it as small as possible but still readable.

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 02:17 PM
THAT'S IT!!!!

How did you do that?


Arlen

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:20 PM
Ok, I warned you....;)

Here is a shot of my setup in Layout. Yes, those are all cameras...51 of them in fact.

mattclary
11-13-2003, 02:22 PM
Very cool, Steve!

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:23 PM
Basically what I did was made a box in modeler and then duplicated it by using a circular array of 50 boxes.

Then I sent it over to modeler, used the boxes as a guide to position my cameras. I didn't worry about pointing the cameras as I used target in the motions panel to have all the cameras point to a single null which is in the center of the array. Once I had my cameras made, I deleted the box template I had made in modeler.

This is somehwere you want to use your spreadsheet because you can go in there select all your cameras at once, and targeted them all towards the center null.

With me so far....?

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 02:24 PM
Okay. I understand that. Now how did you render out all of those cameras? One at a time (F9) or did you set up a sequence where the cameras switched and rendered to a movie?

I've positioned 90 cameras the same way, but I've got to render the dam things out. But that's like 5 hours of F9'ing...

Arlen

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:27 PM
You'll position your camera around your liquid you want to pan around.

Then you just render out your frames up to the point you want to freeze at. Mine was frame 200.

Now, I simply went around and made a render from each camera at frame 200. Make sure you rename each one numerically.

Once you have those frames rendered, pick up with your orignal camera at frame 201 and render out the rest of the animation.

I rendered out still frames and since I named them numerically, I could just import them into Premiere or however you do your video editing and slap them all together. Remember too that you can reverse the motion and go backwards if you want to.

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:28 PM
Well, you don't want to hit f9, use f10 and save them to a file. Just rename them after each render.

Like I said, I warned you, it's tedious but gives good results.

I'm sure that someone could write a script to automate this kind of thing.

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 02:30 PM
How do you get LW to render out each camera with F10?

Arlen

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:36 PM
f9 only renders out a frame and does not save the file, it only opens up the image viewer and allows you to save from there. It's much quicker in my opinion to go under your render options and have it save an RGB to the destination folder of your choice and use f10 that automatically saves a file. You still have to do them seperately though. Unless you have a script that allows you to render from different cameras during a render period (like the script 'switcher') I thought of using switcher but for some reason, I couldn't get it up and running and just decided I'd mess with it later.

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 02:40 PM
I thought of using switcher but for some reason, I couldn't get it up and running and just decided I'd mess with it later.

Yeah, I couldn't get it to work either. Something having to do with Line 99 and that it has to do with the file path and directory.

Are you on a Mac? I am and I think that's why...

Thanks mate!

Arlen

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 02:42 PM
No, I use a pc. I'm sure switcher works fine, I just didn't have time to mess with it today.

Matt
11-13-2003, 03:03 PM
hrgiger - now why didn't I think of that!!!

I must have watched the making of the Matrix a few times now where they talk about how they did the 'bullet-time' sequences what you have there is the digital equivalent of how they did it in the film! Genius!!!

Thinking about it, why have that many cameras?

Why not have one camera that runs the whole sequence and another camera that circles round in the keyframed positions shown making sure the start/end keyframes are where the first camera passes on to and picks up from the second camera?

Matt
11-13-2003, 03:05 PM
Doh! Forget what I just said! The particles would keep moving if you did that!!!!

:rolleyes:

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 03:06 PM
Hey Matt, I just got the stone rolling. I'm sure there are many ways to take it from here.

Yeah, I thought doing the same thing from the making of the matrix in Layout would give similar results. I've been meaning to test it out but never got around to it until now.

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 03:06 PM
Something a little les tedious it to have maby 20 cameras, render it like hrgiger said and find free morphing software and morph vidio-to-image for all 20.

You wouldn't get as good results

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 03:08 PM
Like I said, there are probably better ways to do it but no matter how you do it, you just have to be sure to get your multiple cameras to all be rendering the same frame to give the illusion that the moment in time has been frozen.

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by nerdyguy227
Something a little les tedious it to have maby 20 cameras, render it like hrgiger said and find free morphing software and morph vidio-to-image for all 20.

You wouldn't get as good results

You could probably get by on less cameras then 50 but the more you have, the smoother of a motion you'll get.

I think it'd be great if someone could write an l-script that would setup a virtual camera globe around your scene and render a single frame from every angle. Then it gave you some kind of control that would let you pan around the scene from camera to camera.

Matt
11-13-2003, 03:14 PM
Wouldn't it be great if you could have lscripts that controlled every aspect of lightwave, and you could attached these lscripts to a frame in the timeline.

Then when the render reaches that frame any attached scripts are executed - modifying whatever you've told them to.

So you could (for the example above) setup a script that loops the render on a frame switching the camera after each render is complete until a counter has reached a certain number, or in this case the number of cameras needed to switch to.

Basically 'Frame Scripts' - could be done like this:

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 03:15 PM
Well I think I've found a solution. I have to render out some 110 frames right now and that'll take some 4 hours or so to do.

I'll post a link and let you know how I did it. I think it's impractical, but for what I need....

Arlen

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 03:16 PM
Hopfully, in LW 8 the new partical system has a freeze option

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 03:16 PM
cripes!!!!

Frame scripts. That would be cool.

The only thing that gets me is how complicated scripting is. It shouldn't be just for programmers...

If you have ever used Macromedia's Director, you'd know what I mean by easy.

Arlen

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 03:17 PM
I never tryed. If you find any L-script toutorials please tell me

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 03:20 PM
Scripting doesn't have to be that hard. Have you watched Lee's videos on L-script? I'm not sure who's hosting them right now though...

EDIT: Also, check out this page for lscripting tutorials:

http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/programming.htm#Lscripting

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 03:21 PM
Thanks

Matt
11-13-2003, 03:21 PM
If you have ever used Macromedia's Director, you'd know what I mean by easy

Director is where I shamelessly robbed the idea from! :)

I can code a little in Lingo.

Frame Scripts would be PERFECT for LightWave!!!

You could have a wizard type interface that walked you through setting up common stuff, and then from there you can go in and edit it.

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 03:22 PM
Nope never seen anyone's tutorials on LScript. Just looking at it scares me.


Yeah that would be a great way to go. NT could learn a lot there. It would allow non-techies to do some decent stuff, and leave the great stuff to the guys who know how!!!

Arlen

Matt
11-13-2003, 03:24 PM
Lscript isn't that bad, it's the docs that suck! :)

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 03:26 PM
All I remember are the headaches that I used to get programming C. I forget how, but the migraines...

Arlen

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 03:31 PM
all I ever programmed was in microworlds

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 04:20 PM
Matt: Are you using windowblinds (screenshot you showed)
I love that theme, whatever it is


I don't kno why you guys keep doing this multiple camera thing, here's one I made with just one camera, I didn't use very many motion keys so it looks a little bit choppy, but anyways...

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 04:23 PM
OK smart guy, how did you do it?

Arlen

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 04:26 PM
i used morphing for this... i just left a big gap between the time the camera starts moving and the time it stops...

i'll post some screen grabs in a sec

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 04:28 PM
here's a screen grab of the setup...

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 04:30 PM
here's the graph

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 04:34 PM
do you get it now???

nerdyguy227
11-13-2003, 04:53 PM
I really need some practice on water.

I think I'll make a really good scene.

Tell me if there are more spicific things to tell me.

Matt
11-13-2003, 05:00 PM
SamuraiSlayer no it's a screengrab from the vX interface stuff I did (all Photoshop, nothing real)

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 05:57 PM
nerdyguy227: for realistic water...

particle size: 1 m

size variation: 50%

diffuse: 0%

specularity: 0%

reflection: 40%

transparency: 100%

refraction index: 1.1

in environment, keep it selected as "Ray tracing + backdrop", you don't want to reflect a picture, not a good idea

you may want to apply a hypertexture

everything else, leave it how it is

here is water with all of those settings

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 06:03 PM
o i forgot, under render options, check:

Ray trace reflection

Ray trace refraction

Ray trace shadows

Ray trace transparency

-------------------------------------
here's one I did with the 'turbulence' hypertexture

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by SamuraiSlayer

I don't kno why you guys keep doing this multiple camera thing, here's one I made with just one camera, I didn't use very many motion keys so it looks a little bit choppy, but anyways...

Ok, but how do you get the particles to stop moving to pan around it? I guess I don't see what you're doing exactly... What are you morphing?

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 09:19 PM
ok... here's step-by-step...

1. go to modelor

2. make some points, however many you want the water to be, make them in the position that you want your water to be in the beginning of the scene

3. save it as morph start.lwo or something like that

4. then take the points and make them the way you want them at the END of the scene

5. save this as morph target.lwo (or whatever)

6. go to layout

7. load morph start and morph target

8. go to item properties for morph start

9. go to deformations, make the morph target be, of course, morph target

10. leave the morph amount alone for a sec, we'll deal with that later

11. load the hypervoxels plug-in

12. activate morph target (NOT MORPH START)

13. put in all that stuff that i put in my last post

14. now we're gonna set this up for 130 frames

15. go to item properties for morph start again, then deformations, then click on "E" (graph) for the morph amount

16. key: frame 0, 0%, key: frame 30, 50%, key: 100, 50%, key: 130: 100%

(that will leave a big gap between frame 30 and 100)

17. you may want to wait until frame 40 to start moving the camera around, and then stop moving at frame 90

18. between frames 40 and 90, move your camera around the particles

19. render

i don't think i left anything out

fabmedia
11-13-2003, 09:44 PM
Okay guys... here's what I came up with...

http://142.173.127.220/waterbottle.mov

Now I'm not too sure if I'm going to render it out again... but I think I might. It's looking a little dark on the right wouldn't you say? 2 minutes per frame...

Let me know your thoughts...

Arlen

BTW there is only 1 camera and no GI

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 09:58 PM
wow! really neat how you brought focus to the liquid

now... i'd like to know if anything I mentioned helped in making that... haha

looks good

jeremyhardin
11-13-2003, 10:03 PM
YOU CAN FREEZE THE PARTICLES!

don't use the "etc" tab in your emmiter options to set up gravity/wind.
use FX wind/gravity
set the particle's weight to 0
keep resistance normal (1 or whatever you have it set to)
keyframe the power of your FX wind/gravity to 0 when you want them to stop.
(it's the particles' weight that makes them keep going)
animate your camera normally during stopped time.

(forgive the all caps. mentioned this earlier. it's a much easier way in my opinion.)

SamuraiSlayer
11-13-2003, 11:10 PM
i'm not sure, but I didn't think we we're talkin about gravity/wind

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 11:52 PM
SamuraiSlayer,

As long as I get what you're doing, you're hand animating your splash by moving points around in a morph in modeler and then applying it in Layout? Not a very good way to get a realistic splash. That is why Jeremy is using FXWind and gravity. I'd use a particle system sim before I'd ever try to do that by hand in an animation...

Jeremyhardin,

That's a good suggestion and I think for this case is probably the best solution.
However, if I had multiple items, characters included moving in a scene and I wanted to freeze time, I think a multiple camera setup would probably be better then trying to envlope everything freezing at one frame so you could pan around it with a single camera. The nice thing at least with multiple cameras is that there is no keyframing, or editing involved in the graph editor, it's just a matter of making multiple renders of a single frame.

EDIT: By the way fabmedia, that looks really nice so far. What method are you using?

fabmedia
11-14-2003, 12:38 AM
Ah, credit is due to WIZLON from another thread that I started to in General Support... http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?postid=98385#post98385


Because I had already created a look I figured that his/her suggestion was best for my situation. So here is what I did...

I have a total of 7 emmiters and 1 camera that took the initial image at frame 13. I saved the motion of each of the emmiters and adjusted the playback speed of particles for each emitter to 1%. I tried a lower setting at .01% but the number of particles and such put my G4 dual 867 into a coma. I also knew that if I slowed down the animation to 1% that frame 1300 would be where I needed to initiate the animation. Now after looking about I finally decided on frame 1090 to 1200 (don't ask me why), and rotated the camera 20 counter clockwise.

I HOWEVER would not do it this way again as it makes it impossible to render an animation before and after without the particles moving even though the playback speed was set to %1 (it's still a lot). I would try the option of using particles and a gravity/wind fx generator to try to do this.

My preferable option would be to setup x cameras and pan from the stop of the animation leading into the bullet-time to the exit and render them out into a sequence of frames.

The problem with either of these setups as I think about this is that with a TRUE bullet-time effect, the particles or object would still move over that period of time even though that it appears that time has stopped.

Because of the simple fact that the new Mac OS Panther has unfortunately screwed up all Mac Graph Editors, I was not able to try the one method that I am truely uncertain would work, and that would be to control the birth rate and the motion of the particles. I am sure that using this method would be ideal for a situation as this. Unfortunately I cannot test it.

Maybe someone can do a quick test for me and put my theory into a reality?


Arlen


BTW:: What do you think of the results?

SamuraiSlayer
11-14-2003, 04:21 PM
hrgiger: I have NO idea what you are talking about when you say hand animating, you make a morph start, and a morph target and then you are DONE with modelor, NO MORE MODELOR, NO HAND ANIMATING, you use a graph for the morph, morph from the morph start to the morph target... very easy, ahhh!!! if you want i'll just attach the scene file because after all this explaining i want you understand what i'm saying

ok i zipped everything, its the scene file, i don't kno why this is so hard to understand, but, o well, i couldn't tie my shoes until i was 10, so here is the file

fabmedia
11-15-2003, 11:25 AM
Well here it is guys the final edit.... I colour corrected and composited the piece in Combustion...

http://142.173.127.220/waterbottle_web.mov

The only thing I think I would change is the blur on the background bottle... let me know what you think...

Arlen

toby
11-15-2003, 11:46 AM
Samuraislayer, do you not know how particle emitters behave? That's what fabmedia is using, it's much easier to create an animated water splash with particles, and originally this was an animation. To do it your way would involve modeling a new water splash and creating all the morphs neccessary to animate it all over again.

hrgiger
11-15-2003, 01:27 PM
SamuraiSlayer,

What toby said basically.

Yes, in your scene, you can use one camera to pan around some suspended particles and if that was all fabmedia was trying to do, then your solution would work.
However, he was trying to make a water splash with particles and have the splash freeze in midair as he panned around it. There is no splash in your scene just some suspended particles that move outward. When I said hand animating, I assumed you were manually making a splash in an endomorph which would be way too much work. I think what fabmedia wanted was some particles splashing down and colliding with his bottle model.

Jeremyhardin's solution would work where he puts an envelope on the fx wind/gravity also.

I myself will probably continue to use the multiple camera technique as it's the easiest to manage. I guess I feel that way because the cameras are independant of the rest of the scene, which basically means I don't have to edit any of my existing scene (as for instance, enveloping the particle movement). I can just take a render from each camera around whatever frame I need to freeze.

I made up an lscript last night that adds 60 cameras to my scene in a circular path around a target null. I also added a second null that I can use to size up the diameter of the camera ring for larger or smaller scenes. If anyone wants the lscript, send me an email at [email protected] and I'll send it off to you as well as some instructions for setting up your scene. It's not a finished lscript yet as you need to target the cameras to the target null and parent them to the second null. All it does at this point is add your 60 cameras and your two control nulls.

fabmedia
11-15-2003, 03:40 PM
Opps, my DSL ip was changed...

http://http://154.5.152.12/waterbottle_web.mov

Arlen

toby
11-15-2003, 03:50 PM
nice one fab!

I assume you're going to use more AA?

fabmedia
11-15-2003, 03:56 PM
Unfortunately no. I know, I know, but I really didn't have time for the additional wait. I have to prepare a quick demo reel for a potential architectural animation. So what I get is what I get.

Where about is it falling appart. I've looked at it too much...

Arlen

toby
11-15-2003, 04:05 PM
btw this last link you provided is dead, I used the previous one yesterday -

The water just doesn't look as smooth as it would with more AA - lots of 'twinkling' and pixels popping, It looks like you used low: Enhanced low would probably do it, E medium w/ normal motion blur would be great

hrgiger
11-15-2003, 04:20 PM
Yeah, the last two links you have posted don't work for me. I'd really like to see what you ended up with.

fabmedia
11-15-2003, 06:01 PM
hmmm... try this. Looks like I forgot the colon...

http://154.5.152.12/waterbottle_web.mov

A

cybernaut
11-16-2003, 11:06 AM
This is an really interesting thread.

I've never really tried HV that much so what everyone has said is quite useful to me.

Samurai and Fabmedia, I noticed that you both keyed a bunch of camera positions in a circle around your subject creating a less than smooth circular shape. Wouldn't an easier and faster solution be to create a target null in the center of you subject then parent&target your camera to that null. All you would have to do is key one frame of the null rotating 360 degree, or however far around your subject you wanted to go. You would even need to touch the camera. JAT :)

SamuraiSlayer
11-16-2003, 11:09 AM
cybernaut: yes, i was in a hurry and created a few keys around the object, but what you said would probably work well, i was just making that specifically for this thread:)

fabmedia
11-16-2003, 01:34 PM
The animation was actually output at 15 fps and then compressed with QT for web streaming. So yes it looks a little chunky but nothing like the final product which will be on CD. BUT with my time constraints, there is nothing else I could do.

I spent 2 days trying to find a solution to the problem and now I have to make up for it.

Right now, it took forever to render this out...

http://154.5.152.12/G4_web.mov

Again 15 fps ultra compressed with QT.

Arlen

toby
11-16-2003, 02:14 PM
wow - your machine must be slower than my dual 450! Nice model!

fabmedia
11-16-2003, 08:33 PM
No it's a G4 dual 867. It just has a bazillion polys. in the hundreds of thousands. It's all because of the apple logo. PITA.

Arlen

Aegd
05-01-2004, 05:41 PM
wow, that really seems like the hard way... but that's how they do it in the matrix : )

AngelDream
05-02-2004, 07:32 PM
That's the real way to do it in the real world. I mean, that was how the Wachowski did it in Matrix, with all those cameras.
However, cna't you just freeze everything(objs), keyframe in the beggining of the interval, keyframe the end and the set the curve to linear, then move the camera??

SamuraiSlayer
05-02-2004, 07:37 PM
I was just gonna let it slide but i'll say it now... this forum is like 6 months old!!!

anyways the best way to get the camera to move around it, counting that you found a way to freeze the particles, is to add a null and put it right in the middle of the object, parent the camera to the null, and rotate the null. the camera will move in a perfect circle around the null

my 2 cents :)

siproductions
05-25-2004, 08:18 PM
Ok guys just a quick thought for those of you who are doing the multi camera approach. go into modeler and make a disc and extrude it and delete the ends and flip the polys inwards. Like this:

Next go to add powergon and type this in: AddCamera Matrix\rPosition \c\rRotation \n\rParentItem \i\rCreateKey 0

Save your object out and send it to layout and click do powergons. Instant camera array. Just add a null and target your cameras to it and you are ready to go. You can do this with particles and lights too.

The problem is rendering out the different cameras on the same frame and saving each one as a different name. You need an Lscript to do this. Something like:

Select camera one. Render frame 20. Save as MatrixCam1.tga
Select camera two. Render frame 20. Save as MatrixCam2.tga
and so on would work. However I can hardly program the "Hello World" script, so it is way beyond me.

nerdyguy227
05-26-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by siproductions
However I can hardly program the "Hello World" script, so it is way beyond me.

me too!

It is getting a little anoying watching all the people program while you are there scratching your head wondering why yours does not work.

I think I should get a basic book for LScripting

siproductions
05-26-2004, 02:36 PM
I wish there was a book on Lscript. I would buy it in a second. I think Proton said something about there being one in the works. I hope so. :)

nerdyguy227
05-26-2004, 04:57 PM
ME TOO!!!


and a sugestion for the water splash, get realflow!

John Melvin
05-28-2004, 09:11 AM
Just now getting back into LW. How do you animate those cameras?? i.e. switch from one to another.

Thanks

John

toby
05-28-2004, 02:24 PM
you'd have to find a plug-in that switches cameras, but then you'd have to find a way for each frame to get named differently so it doesn't overwrite the last one. This one needs to be done by rendering one frame at a time, or by a programmer.

hrgiger
05-28-2004, 04:22 PM
I had totally forgotten about this thread. I didn't automate rendering out to the 60 cameras. I hit f10 60 times renaming the new file before each render. Tedious, but effective.