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saranine
07-10-2013, 07:32 AM
I have a Diploma in Graphics design. It was based around Adobe CS6, especially Indesign.

I will never purchase Creative Cloud. To me it is the opportunity cost; yesterday I bought Lightwave. If I rent software infinitely that is money that could have been spent on better things. There is also the TOC in which Adobe can at any time, for any reason take your Creative Cloud off you. I won't find it now. So many have quoted the TOC part that anyone can find this out if they wish.

What a total conjob. I also don't know if I could use it. A few years ago there was a beta photoshop version that didn't uninstall cleanly. So when people used the version proper the "2" photoshops fought each other and both froze. You can't run two photoshops on the one machine. So can I run Photoshop CS6 and its CC version on the one machine? I have no idea. I'm not willing to risk it.

I couldn't be bothered with this CC nonsense. It is a conjob. If this the way that software is going - and I have no opinion that it is or isn't - then we as consumers are totally, completely and absolutely stuffed. Not trying to go all Richard Stallman here. But they have control over us then. They can change the software, up the price etc because if you stop paying rent it is kaput.

I am amazed at how dumb some people have been on this. There is that fool on youtube with the bRitish accent who says "7 reasons to love the cloud" such as it "stopping piracy". Need I insult anyone's intelligence here to say that it won't. Adobe would do more to combat piracy if they dressed up 100 people in T shorts saying "piracy is wrong" and sent then to walk around New York City. Not that I condone piracy, of course.

I hate the way that computing is going in general. Windows 8, Google SE0...topics for another day.

Ryan Roye
07-10-2013, 07:39 AM
This has kind of already been discussed. (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135929-Hey-Hey-Adobe-I-m-Not-On-Your-Cloud!&highlight=creative+cloud)

And also, there are more than just a few alternative software packages that can do things from the creative suite and have perpetual licenses. Try them out! :)

Triodin
07-10-2013, 02:47 PM
You can run CS6 and CC on the same machine at the same time. I switched and haven't looked back. I do one job a month and it's paid for itself and then some. I finally stopped torrenting because I could afford it!

hrgiger
07-10-2013, 03:45 PM
This is already being discussed on a few other threads.

Personally I'm glad for the cloud, it make software affordable that I wouldn't have owned outright anyway. I don't care for the reasoning behind it. I also don't care that I don't own the software. It works for me now and that's all that matters.

Surrealist.
07-10-2013, 10:08 PM
I signed up to get the deal. Next year it will double in price. I now have some tools to hand I would have not been able to buy currently. It will pay for itself a few times over easy.

But far too much emphasis is put on all of this rather than creating art which is what we should be thinking about. Just use the best software for the job, get on with your life. There are other things more important. In my opinion it is a misplaced concern to worry about these kinds of things.

If given a choice between the tool I think is the best for the job (software A) and a tool I think would not do it as well (software B), I'll take software A regardless of how peachy I feel about the business practices of company B over company A.

Company practices do not make good art. The artist's creativity first and the choice of the best tools a close second, do.

I believe the only real security in life you can have is not money in the bank or software safely on your computer forever, but in your ability to create. And of course to work.

I guess I have been there and done that and learned that getting on a "bandwagon" about anything other than just making good art is a waster of time and energy and only resulted in me failing to avail myself of tools that would help me create art in the best way I can.

Silkrooster
07-11-2013, 12:33 AM
I ended up signing up. I knew I was going to be in for the long haul and bit the bullet. I prefer paying every other year, it just makes more sense to me, but I don't see where we have a choice, if we want newer features which usually means bug fixes as well. (getting rare to see bug fixes between upgrades with most companies)

But as far as the "renting" argument goes... Well there is no point in arguing it, because no matter which way you pay, you do not own anything other than the physical blank CD/DVD. Its states so in the licensing. They (the company that writes the code) always owns the software and you are given the right to "use" the software unless they revoke that right.
Which basically means it does not matter if you pay monthly, annually or every 3 years, you are renting the software.

That being said, there are a few companies may not use that licensing scheme, but it is becoming more common than anybody realizes.

I personally believe that is the reason for the web authorizations is that gives them the power to disable the software if they choose to do so.

Rayek
07-11-2013, 12:44 AM
While I absolutely dislike the CC model, I am pragmatic about it. For my work (mainly web dev, front end development and mobile game design these days) and some 3d generalist and video/motion graphics stuff, with a spot of graphics design, I can live without Adobe. Except for After Effects CS6.

For a non-destructive workflow in texture creation Photoshop is quite limited in comparison to Photoline (which I use now) - the superior approach in layer system opened up a whole new world for me. If that had not been the case, I would have been stuck with Photoshop (for better or for worse).

With the addition of 3dCoat, Substance Designer, Lightworks, Krita, Xara and NetBeans/Komodo Edit I have everything I need (and more) in regards to professional alternatives to the Adobe Suite (Except for AE).

I still use After Effects. The rest of the Adobe suite has been replaced by better or equal software at a lower cost. And no, that was not a response to CC - I was growing tired of Adobe product management and overall complacency years before that.

- 6 years ago. I got rid of Dreamweaver. There are far better IDE and editors out there (most are free) for web dev. Best decision I made.
- 3 years ago. Illustrator got the boot in my workflow. I replaced with Xara.
- 2 years ago. Flash was deleted off my drive. Replaced with html 5 techniques and Scirra Construct.
- 1 year ago. Lightworks replaces Premiere.
- 9 months ago. I found out about Photoline. Never heard about that one before, and was more than pleasantly surprised: both Photoshop and Fireworks I replaced with that one. Also made the 3dCoat purchase for good 3d model painting.
- 3 months ago. Substance Designer. Wow. Just Wow.

I pretty much had all Adobe software replaced before the CC announcement.

That is, except AE. I'll be using AE CS6 for some time, while I await its replacement in the near future. The market is opening up again, thanks to CC - at least, that's how I see it.

Rayek
07-11-2013, 12:55 AM
I ended up signing up. I knew I was going to be in for the long haul and bit the bullet. I prefer paying every other year, it just makes more sense to me, but I don't see where we have a choice, if we want newer features which usually means bug fixes as well. (getting rare to see bug fixes between upgrades with most companies)

But as far as the "renting" argument goes... Well there is no point in arguing it, because no matter which way you pay, you do not own anything other than the physical blank CD/DVD. Its states so in the licensing. They (the company that writes the code) always owns the software and you are given the right to "use" the software unless they revoke that right.
Which basically means it does not matter if you pay monthly, annually or every 3 years, you are renting the software.

That being said, there are a few companies may not use that licensing scheme, but it is becoming more common than anybody realizes.

I personally believe that is the reason for the web authorizations is that gives them the power to disable the software if they choose to do so.

One 'solution' would be to opt in and subscribe and to avoid sudden CC death by installing a hacked version, of which updated versions are going to be released on a as regular basis as the CC updates. You're still paying them to use the software, and you regain personal control over the situation.

Legally perhaps suspect or wrong (in Adobe's view), but morally and ethically I would have no qualms with this. Similar to the purchase a game, and removing the frustrating and inconvenient drm protection. Win-win situation for both the company and the user (though I doubt Adobe would look at this as a "win"). User would have to have a very strong sense of ethics and honesty, though.

Not that I would do this, since I have no need for the software. :-)

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 12:56 AM
I of course agree with the OP.

For those of you who say you wouldn't have the software because you couldn't afford it... there is that thing called SAVING UP to buy something. For those of you making money with Adobe products, you should have had no problem saving up for a Creative Suite and then upgrading in 18 months - or 36 months. And person making money with these products should be able to budget for the software.

But with the current system, you will be renting forever JUST to access your files. WHY would ANYONE want to do that? I just don't get it. In the end - for those of us who would skip just one upgrade (ie go from CS3 to CS5) - those on CC end up paying MORE. And in the end you have ZERO to show for it. You own nothing.

People can argue and rationalize all they want, but this is BAD for the consumer no matter how you slice it. Being able to use tools you don't normally use is often called TRAIL SOFTWARE which anyone here can try with the previous Adobe system. And if you like it, you save up and BUY it. Now you can only RENT it.

How would you like it if Newtek did the same thing? Would you like to rent Lightwave for say $40 a month? And then when you stop paying you can't open your files?

Rayek
07-11-2013, 12:59 AM
I agree with Megalodon. Though I do understand why people opt in, and why they have no issues with it. Whether that is good or evil - just the way it is.

PS I already had my first student last term who was unable to hand in his work, because he had forgotten about the expiry date on his credit card. Adobe instantly blocked his account, and he could not hand in his work on time.

Humans are notoriously imperfect. Now imagine yourself in that situation and you had a deadline for an important project. Then tell your client "Oh, I am so sorry, my credit card expired."

This is no fantasy - I have read and heard about multiple horror stories where clients were lost BECAUSE of how Adobe (mis)handled CC activation and the immature registration system.

shrox
07-11-2013, 01:15 AM
...How would you like it if Newtek did the same thing? Would you like to rent Lightwave for say $40 a month? And then when you stop paying you can't open your files?

Honestly? I'd go pirate.

50one
07-11-2013, 04:12 AM
Honestly? I'd go pirate.

Wooden leg, a hook and a parrot on your arm? ARRRRRR!

hrgiger
07-11-2013, 07:32 AM
How would you like it if Newtek did the same thing? Would you like to rent Lightwave for say $40 a month? And then when you stop paying you can't open your files?

Well $40 a month is too much for the LightWave software when you compare it to what I get for $50 a month from Adobe. But for Maybe $25-$30 a month, yeah, I'd absolutely do that.

Again, you can say this is bad for everyone but that doesn't make it true. It works for some people better then a standard CS non-cloud version. Obviously, a choice between the two would be the ideal situation. But that's not what they're offering. So either buy the cloud or don't. But if you don't, then also don't speak for everyone when it comes to what is the best solution. Its not the best solution for you, but along for me and the million subscribers they'll have by years end, it just might be.

jasonwestmas
07-11-2013, 08:44 AM
I signed up to get the deal. Next year it will double in price. I now have some tools to hand I would have not been able to buy currently. It will pay for itself a few times over easy.

But far too much emphasis is put on all of this rather than creating art which is what we should be thinking about. Just use the best software for the job, get on with your life. There are other things more important. In my opinion it is a misplaced concern to worry about these kinds of things.

If given a choice between the tool I think is the best for the job (software A) and a tool I think would not do it as well (software B), I'll take software A regardless of how peachy I feel about the business practices of company B over company A.

Company practices do not make good art. The artist's creativity first and the choice of the best tools a close second, do.

I believe the only real security in life you can have is not money in the bank or software safely on your computer forever, but in your ability to create. And of course to work.

I guess I have been there and done that and learned that getting on a "bandwagon" about anything other than just making good art is a waster of time and energy and only resulted in me failing to avail myself of tools that would help me create art in the best way I can.

It's nice to hear that. As long as we are able to create, that should be the priority.

If NT did the cloud, their software would have to claim a near monopoly on some feature set, like adobe has with photoshop. :D

honestly, I don't think I'll be using PS if it goes up to 100$ a month.

Surrealist.
07-11-2013, 10:35 AM
Yeah that's be a deal breaker for me for sure. I mean, just purely financially. Don't think I could do it.

Though I kinda wish AD had gone the cloud route last year when I was saving up for my suite. I'd be a very happy camper right about now and with a lot more cash in the bank thank you very much. The day I bought my suite I was on cloud nine. It is nice to know I "own" it. But it was more to do with just having those tools at my finger tips. Also I really do depend on upgrades. A gradual as they may seem, this last one has really given me a lot of new great tools. If next year they gave the option to do a CC instead of the SAP I think I'd jump on it especially if it was anything like the Adobe CC. But it does not seem that they have that in the plan.

LightWave on a subscription? I'd do it. Still waiting for something to thrill me and upgrade. And knowing that they would be continually updating with new tools and fixes would be enough for me. That along with staying current.

I know it is not for everyone. And I have my misgivings about the whole rental thing as well. But just I have other things to worry about.

shrox
07-11-2013, 10:51 AM
Wooden leg, a hook and a parrot on your arm? ARRRRRR!

Probably a kitten instead of a parrot.

geo_n
07-11-2013, 11:09 AM
Its industry standard software that is almost a necessity for some. So its like utilities, etc. Adobe can do what they want for now until the industry itself changes or your work doesn't rely on adobe at all. You can live without serviced electricity or water but I doubt that would be fun for everybody.

cresshead
07-11-2013, 11:09 AM
if a major 3d app went 'rental' it woud depend on what the app was and what came with it plus the pricing, to be honest...i'd never say never without looking at the deal.
however adobe can take a running jump at themselves for CC as it's of little interest to me and the reason they went 'rental' was they have reached the end of their development for the
2d apps so new version arn't new except for a new number...so going rental makes sense for their dev teams simply treading water.

jasonwestmas
07-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Its industry standard software that is almost a necessity for some. So its like utilities, etc. Adobe can do what they want for now until the industry itself changes or your work doesn't rely on adobe at all. You can live without serviced electricity or water but I doubt that would be fun for everybody.

No but luckily with software we can choose where it comes from. I don't use photoshop every day like I use water. So obviously the nature of the work dictates the value of the software.

There are some things in photoshop that every CG artist needs and other developers don't support very well. But I think that kind of monopoly will come to pass eventually.

JohnMarchant
07-11-2013, 12:03 PM
Adobe CC did not stop piracy as any google search will tell you, they crack CC almost as soon as it came out. So now they just download it from Adobe and crack it.

I quite like Gimp, whilst not as many features as Photoshop, its free.

Its like comparing LW and Blender, with the way Blender is going maybe there is not going to be a justification to pay for LW or any other 3D software in a few years. Just hope Blender can sort out the interface which i still cant get around.

shrox
07-11-2013, 12:59 PM
...Just hope Blender can sort out the interface which i still cant get around.

I have the same problem.

Rayek
07-11-2013, 01:12 PM
I have the same problem.

I am the opposite: nowadays it takes me more time to get accustomed to LW's interface and the awkward modeler<->layout split. Blender makes much more sense to me. Then again, I do spend more time in Blender than in Lightwave.

I guess it's all down to practice and experience.




There are some things in photoshop that every CG artist needs and other developers don't support very well. But I think that kind of monopoly will come to pass eventually.

I'd be interested in knowing what things you mean?

JohnMarchant
07-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Rayek, of course the more time you spend with it the easier it will become. Its just i spent so much time trying to understand the interface that after a while i went back to LW as its the one i know. Just wish Blenders was more, how shall we say, simple.

But power wise Blender cannot be beaten as its free and has some things LW does not, its up to NT to catch up to justify its price.

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 02:07 PM
Well $40 a month is too much for the LightWave software when you compare it to what I get for $50 a month from Adobe. But for Maybe $25-$30 a month, yeah, I'd absolutely do that.

Again, you can say this is bad for everyone but that doesn't make it true. It works for some people better then a standard CS non-cloud version. Obviously, a choice between the two would be the ideal situation. But that's not what they're offering. So either buy the cloud or don't. But if you don't, then also don't speak for everyone when it comes to what is the best solution. Its not the best solution for you, but along for me and the million subscribers they'll have by years end, it just might be.

It MAY be good for the short term, but HAVING to rent the software FOREVER just to be able to open your files IS bad for ALL consumers. The FACT that Adobe doesn't HAVE to provide any serious updates in order to entice customer IS also bad. It WILL be bad for everyone. You can say it works for you now, but IMO you're not thinking about the future OR the future of other software vendors IF Adobe succeeds. You like it now because it works for you NOW. But knowing the the price WILL increase and you won't be able to open your files unless you pay... it really is only a matter of time before you realize that this is a BAD system. Of course it may take it happening to YOU in order to see it.

Right now the economy is chugging along and everything is moving relatively smoothly - despite the multitude of posts with problems using CC. I can't wait to see how these same subscribers act when another DEEP recession hits and the industry that these artists work in is severely economically depressed. Then when they find it difficult to spend that $600 a year - though ultimately we KNOW that will be more - and they realize that their rented software gives them no out... it's going to be interesting.

Yeah... it's good NOW when things are okay. Wait till the sh*t hits the fan and they've got thousands of files that they can't open.

Regarding LW going sub... I just don't understand the attitude that you wouldn't mind being owned by another company. To HAVE to pay FOREVER to open your files to me is just insane. Maybe you should start a poll - How many would like LW to go subscription?

jasonwestmas
07-11-2013, 02:21 PM
It's not the idea of subscription that would turn me off to anything, it depends on the terms and price of the subscription. Something like you cannot open PSD files in a sculpting or painting app. or some other image editor without a subscription would be a deal breaker.

I don't see it as being owned but I admit I don't like being forced to pay for an entire year. I made the CC decision based on my current needs and I can cancel out later.

saranine
07-11-2013, 03:38 PM
There is an invisible gorilla here.

If Adobe wanted you to have access to your files after ceasing your cloud payments then why didn't they do this:

Photoshop Reader
Indesign Reader
Illustrator Reader...

Thus just like Acrobat Reader you could open a file but not edit it. Now, Adobe has the engineers to make all of this. They also as a company aren't stupid. So I can only reach one conclusion: they made "readers" for the whole Adobe Suite years ago and are sitting on them. That is very disconcerting. They could sort out this issue at any time. But they choose not to so that they can control you and lock you in.

It's a nasty, totally amoral world this Creative Cloud/subscription buisiness. Very nasty. Real radioactive, sludgy stuff. Not getting anywhere near that sort of toxic software.

shrox
07-11-2013, 03:42 PM
There is an invisible gorilla here.

If Adobe wanted you to have access to your files after ceasing your cloud payments then why didn't they do this:

Photoshop Reader
Indesign Reader
Illustrator Reader...

Thus just like Acrobat Reader you could open a file but not edit it. Now, Adobe has the engineers to make all of this. They also as a company aren't stupid. So I can only reach one conclusion: they made "readers" for the whole Adobe Suite years ago and are sitting on them. That is very disconcerting. They could sort out this issue at any time. But they choose not to so that they can control you and lock you in.

It's a nasty, totally amoral world this Creative Cloud/subscription buisiness. Very nasty. Real radioactive, sludgy stuff. Not getting anywhere near that sort of toxic software.

A reasonable idea that will be shot down immediately.

hrgiger
07-11-2013, 03:51 PM
It MAY be good for the short term, but HAVING to rent the software FOREVER just to be able to open your files IS bad for ALL consumers. The FACT that Adobe doesn't HAVE to provide any serious updates in order to entice customer IS also bad. It WILL be bad for everyone. You can say it works for you now, but IMO you're not thinking about the future OR the future of other software vendors IF Adobe succeeds. You like it now because it works for you NOW. But knowing the the price WILL increase and you won't be able to open your files unless you pay... it really is only a matter of time before you realize that this is a BAD system. Of course it may take it happening to YOU in order to see it.

Right now the economy is chugging along and everything is moving relatively smoothly - despite the multitude of posts with problems using CC. I can't wait to see how these same subscribers act when another DEEP recession hits and the industry that these artists work in is severely economically depressed. Then when they find it difficult to spend that $600 a year - though ultimately we KNOW that will be more - and they realize that their rented software gives them no out... it's going to be interesting.

Yeah... it's good NOW when things are okay. Wait till the sh*t hits the fan and they've got thousands of files that they can't open.

Regarding LW going sub... I just don't understand the attitude that you wouldn't mind being owned by another company. To HAVE to pay FOREVER to open your files to me is just insane. Maybe you should start a poll - How many would like LW to go subscription?

Well I will just say this will be my last post on the matter because you continue to try and speak for me and others and apparently I don't know enough on my own to state my own opinion. You seem to believe that if there's something that I like about the Adobe subscription model, then it must be because of my lack of understanding of how it works, my lack of vision for the future, or my utter complacency on the evils of using software that I don't own. You just will not accept that it just simply works for me and is a better solution to a typical software license. And I won't continue to go around in circles about it.

I use Photoshop for my own personal photography and for textures for use in LightWave. So all of my files eventually come out in a format that can be opened in every other image applicaton in existance. So not having access to my files anymore after a subscription.... NOT AN ISSUE.

As long as the subscription model works for me, I'm really paying about the same per year on average with the cloud model that keeps my software current as I would be with a liscensed version if you count upgrades. So the cost... NOT AN ISSUE. (and please don't start in with most people skip an upgrade so I'd be paying less then a CC customer because all the software I own I typically upgrade each new version)

And you say if Adobe succeeds.... Well if Adobe succeeds with this, its only because enough people liked the subscription model enough to make Adobe Successful. And I fully expect Adobe to raise their prices at some point. If it ever got to a point that I couldn't comfortably afford, then I would use alternatives. That's not an issue either. But I can't choose what software I'm going to use on what MIGHT happen, only whats available now.

saranine
07-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Playing Devil's advocate, I have often asked myself "is there any change that Adobe could make to CC that would make me think about buying it?"

The only possible way would be if they followed the model of rental PCs, TVs etc and offered a "conversion" of CC at some point to a perpetual licence, say after you have used CC continually for X amount of time. Even then I would probably not buy it. Maybe there would be a 10% chance then that I would buy CC. With their current model there is a 0% chance.

Doctor49152
07-11-2013, 04:03 PM
In my opinion it comes down to 2 facts of the past.
1. Adobe knows those people/companies that can afford it will sign up for CC.
2. There's always going to be pirates. They will never sign up for CC.

But by going to the 'only renting it for now' model they've introduced 3 new facts
3. Those who can't afford it (or just don't like what CC means) will turn to piracy or to other software that they will own.
4. Older versions now have better resale value. (look for my CS4 and CS5 production boxes on EBay! :) )
5. Adobe doesn't have to work to develop new features to entice users of fact #1 to upgrade. They know they have your soul.

saranine
07-11-2013, 04:09 PM
Unfortunately I can't legally resell my CS6 or CS5 because I bought them at the academic prices while I was doing my Graphics Diploma. As far as I understand the academic licence it prohibits selling the software. But yes a commercial version of Adobe software would be sellable. There could be all of that "licence transfer" hassel. But that would be doable.

But an increased resell value...that is hilarious :)

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 04:14 PM
There is an invisible gorilla here.

If Adobe wanted you to have access to your files after ceasing your cloud payments then why didn't they do this:

Photoshop Reader
Indesign Reader
Illustrator Reader...

I can't see it working too well with Premiere or AfterFX though. And quite honestly it still doesn't address the issue - with perpetual licenses there was NEVER a worry about opening or editing files. Now in order to edit them we HAVE to pay the ransom to Adobe. We don't like that at all.

And you say if Adobe succeeds.... Well if Adobe succeeds with this, its only because enough people liked the subscription model enough to make Adobe Successful. And I fully expect Adobe to raise their prices at some point. If it ever got to a point that I couldn't comfortably afford, then I would use alternatives. That's not an issue either. But I can't choose what software I'm going to use on what MIGHT happen, only whats available now.
Not necessarily. There have been quite a few in other forums and on FB and blogs that DISCOVERED that once they stopped they no longer had access to their work. There are apparently a GREAT MANY people who are VERY uninformed. They will certainly get a terrific shock when they cancel their subscription - which incidentally can't be done online, you have to call - and find they can't open their files. Or try to open their PSD's in other programs and discover that the filters don't work in other apps.

If it works for you, great. I believe that you said before that you HAD signed the petition against Adobe? If you did, that was great and I thank you. Apparently you don't use apps like Premiere or AfterFX or InDesign so you don't HAVE to worry about being able to open them. Photoshop and Illustrator are probably the easiest of the apps that have files that can open (for the most part) in other programs. Many of the other Adobe programs do not. I don't use Premiere, but I do use PS, AE and ID. All people like myself want is the OPTION to buy perpetual licenses returned. Though until their bottom line is hurt, I sincerely doubt that they will EVER offer perpetual licenses again since they can cut costs by lowering innovation.

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 04:17 PM
Unfortunately I can't legally resell my CS6 or CS5 because I bought them at the academic prices while I was doing my Graphics Diploma. As far as I understand the academic licence it prohibits selling the software. But yes a commercial version of Adobe software would be sellable. There could be all of that "licence transfer" hassel. But that would be doable.

But an increased resell value...that is hilarious :)

It's true. BEFORE CC only, prices of these used apps were average. Now with CC only, their prices HAVE gone up because Adobe no longer sells perpetual licenses. Now the price hasn't gone up to MORE than they originally cost, but it IS higher than before CC only.

Surrealist.
07-11-2013, 04:23 PM
It MAY be good for the short term, but HAVING to rent the software FOREVER just to be able to open your files IS bad for ALL consumers. The FACT that Adobe doesn't HAVE to provide any serious updates in order to entice customer IS also bad. It WILL be bad for everyone. You can say it works for you now, but IMO you're not thinking about the future OR the future of other software vendors IF Adobe succeeds. You like it now because it works for you NOW. But knowing the the price WILL increase and you won't be able to open your files unless you pay... it really is only a matter of time before you realize that this is a BAD system. Of course it may take it happening to YOU in order to see it.

Right now the economy is chugging along and everything is moving relatively smoothly - despite the multitude of posts with problems using CC. I can't wait to see how these same subscribers act when another DEEP recession hits and the industry that these artists work in is severely economically depressed. Then when they find it difficult to spend that $600 a year - though ultimately we KNOW that will be more - and they realize that their rented software gives them no out... it's going to be interesting.

Yeah... it's good NOW when things are okay. Wait till the sh*t hits the fan and they've got thousands of files that they can't open.

Regarding LW going sub... I just don't understand the attitude that you wouldn't mind being owned by another company. To HAVE to pay FOREVER to open your files to me is just insane. Maybe you should start a poll - How many would like LW to go subscription?

I think we got that Megalondon2.0 does not care for the subscription idea. And thinks that it is bad for the whole world, individuals, the economy, each person's bank account. And not to mention each persons personal finances.

I think you have some valid points, and your opinion is being heard loud and clear in case you were wondering.

I can speak for myself. I don't agree with all of your reasoning. Some of it to me is flawed and reactionary. Some of it is valid.

But regardless, I pretty much follow my own path. I have my own reasoning, which may or may not be flawed in your opinion. And I have no intention of jumping on any crusade or bandwagon no matter how many multitudes fall in with the mob. Just not my style.

Personally, I also think that Adobe would be wise to remove the mandatory subscription idea. I don't think it was a wise move to make it mandatory. But, regardless, that was not why I joined. I joined because for me it was a good idea to try for a year. I will evaluate it again then and make up my own mind what to do.

And the reason I joined also was because of people like you coming here and starting up a bunch of hub bub over it. When people do that, I investigate. And in this case I was happy with CS5, so I likely would not have even looked into CC had it not been for all of the outcry over it. But when I did look into it, and examined all of the ramifications including much of what has been said in these threads, I liked the idea. Simple. So in this case I think, unfortunately, Adobe has gotten the better end of the deal.

The jury is still out on what Adobe will do in the future. I don't feel much like I can control it, nor do I really feel like spending energy in that direction. If you do that's fine.

saranine
07-11-2013, 04:32 PM
I would have to agree with that. We all make our own decisions. I don't think that anyone should be seen as "bad" because they buy into CC. I have expressed a point of view here. But there was no preaching intended. THe irony of posts against it getting someone to look into it and buy it is amusing. It reminds me of high school where you would in a debate do a straw man argument that gave the other debate team a winning idea.

shrox
07-11-2013, 05:01 PM
I think some of us (like me) don't want to see others get caught in what we see as a trap. Low price is the bait, getting your money forever is the trap.

DrStrik9
07-11-2013, 05:53 PM
How long does the average computer system last? 5 years? 7 years? Mine is pushing 6 years right now.

So in 6-7 years, given typical advances in technology, processors, OS versions, etc., within the next 7 years, NO ONE will be able to use the current CS5 or CS6 that they may "own" right now. (Incidentally, you never actually "own" software; the developer retains ownership, the same way we retain ownership of the images we develop.) With the old buy-a-user's-license model, you only "rent" it with your initial purchase price anyway, for as long as your computer/OS/etc can run it.

Just sayin'. :+)

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 05:57 PM
And the reason I joined also was because of people like you coming here and starting up a bunch of hub bub over it. When people do that, I investigate. And in this case I was happy with CS5, so I likely would not have even looked into CC had it not been for all of the outcry over it. But when I did look into it, and examined all of the ramifications including much of what has been said in these threads, I liked the idea. Simple. So in this case I think, unfortunately, Adobe has gotten the better end of the deal.

The jury is still out on what Adobe will do in the future. I don't feel much like I can control it, nor do I really feel like spending energy in that direction. If you do that's fine.

And that's fine. I just hope that the things people like me have come to seriously worry about don't happen. But if they do happen, remember it was people like me who stood up and said it was bad for consumers. I don't want to see anyone here who has signed up come back years later and say "man, I can't believe Adobe is now doing THIS to us" because when something could have been done, many people did not stand up.


I would have to agree with that. We all make our own decisions. I don't think that anyone should be seen as "bad" because they buy into CC. I have expressed a point of view here. But there was no preaching intended. THe irony of posts against it getting someone to look into it and buy it is amusing. It reminds me of high school where you would in a debate do a straw man argument that gave the other debate team a winning idea.

It's really no skin off my nose because while I use Adobe software, I don't use it enough that this move in itself will hurt me. I see a far more broader trouble down the road and this sets a terrible precedent. I will LMAO when so many people who are now FOR this CC model end up coming in and complaining that their "favorite software" has just gone subscription and they're really pissed. And it probably would be all due to Adobe succeeding where if they had failed, other software companies WOULD think twice.


I think some of us (like me) don't want to see others get caught in what we see as a trap. Low price is the bait, getting your money forever is the trap.
Yup. It IS a trap - especially for those who use programs with proprietary extensions like Premiere, AfterFX, InDesign, etc. Everything is going great now, but it won't be that way always. I recall someone in this forum (can't remember who) that said he didn't see much about the recession we were in because he didn't see any problems and that the news media were blowing things out of proportion. This was at least a year or so into the recession. Just ONE WEEK later he came back to the forum and stated that he NOW believed the recession was real - he'd lost his job because there wasn't enough work coming in. It hit him out of the blue. He didn't believe those of us who were saying this was a bad recession. And... that's what I see here as well.

But if CC works for you, great. I will NEVER rent software. If I have to go all open source ultimately, I'm fine with that. But NO company will ever force me into renting their software JUST so I can open my files years later. If you can... peace. ;)

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 06:06 PM
How long does the average computer system last? 5 years? 7 years? Mine is pushing 6 years right now.

So in 6-7 years, given typical advances in technology, processors, OS versions, etc., within the next 7 years, NO ONE will be able to use the current CS5 or CS6 that they may "own" right now. (Incidentally, you never actually "own" software; the developer retains ownership, the same way we retain ownership of the images we develop.) With the old buy-a-user's-license model, you only "rent" it with your initial purchase price anyway, for as long as your computer/OS/etc can run it.

Just sayin'. :+)

There have been professional users in various forums and blogs that still have Win2k machines because the software will only run on THAT system. I love the people who come in and say things like "Why would you have to go back to old two or three year old files and change them?" It's like they have no idea how a real business runs. MANY people maintain older systems JUST to run older software. On CGTalk someone said that they have an older machine just so they can run an older copy of Max. It's not unrealistic to realize that people do this, and... it WORKS.

Why the developer retains ownership of the software, we OWN the license. If we want to, we can resell CS3, CS4, CS5, etc. and it still has VALUE to us. Adobe CC does not. And theoretically... these licenses can run for DECADES on a machine. I still use LW5.5 for specific architectural modeling because of the LScript version it uses with our LScripts. I have ZERO intention of getting rid of that system and I will ALWAYS maintain a machine (or two) that is capable of running LW5.5. It's not unusual, it's reality.

Surrealist.
07-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Just a comment for what it is worth. Give people some credit, you know, we are all intelligent and perceptive people, and also see the same things you see. I saw all of those ramifications when I very first heard of the cloud. And hearing them voiced here was thought-provoking. Also confirmed some of the things that I thought could potentially happen. But also by investigating for myself I found out that some of the fears and warnings - in my opinion - were not justified and sounded more rabble rouse against Adobe than based on real possible outcomes. We are all adults here. We don't need hand holding and warnings about looking both ways before crossing the street. I really don't think there is a single person who would come back and say "Why didn't anyone warn me?". Because I really don't think most people here are that stupid. It is just that we all have different priorities about what to do with our time and money.

shrox
07-11-2013, 10:58 PM
...warnings about looking both ways before crossing the street. I really don't think there is a single person who would come back and say "Why didn't anyone warn me?"...

Safety Shrox sez...

Megalodon2.0
07-11-2013, 11:52 PM
Also confirmed some of the things that I thought could potentially happen. But also by investigating for myself I found out that some of the fears and warnings - in my opinion - were not justified and sounded more rabble rouse against Adobe than based on real possible outcomes.

Exactly what rabble rousing are you talking about?

Most of what I've seen on forums and blogs is quite accurate. There ARE a few stupid items such as 1. need to always be connected and 2. files ONLY saved on the cloud - but I haven't seen anything that's simply "against Adobe" without an element of truth. I'd like to know exactly what items you are talking about.

Surrealist.
07-12-2013, 02:42 AM
Rabble Rouse by definition has nothing to do with how "factual" things are:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rabble-rouse

"to stir up the emotions or prejudices of the public; agitate"

It can merely be one's opinions about facts directed in such a way as to get people stirred up, concerned, change their views about something and so on.

The facts are all on the table. But there are different reactions to them is all. Some are rabble-rouse and come from a growing or recent hatred of Adobe. Others are more mild.

Rabble rouse by definition would be views based on the facts that provoke people to have a certain view of them. You don't have to look at them the same way. And clearly people don't look at them in the same way, nor react to them in the same way. Much to the befuddlement of people such as yourself.

That is all there really is to it

hrgiger
07-12-2013, 08:10 AM
Exactly what rabble rousing are you talking about?

Most of what I've seen on forums and blogs is quite accurate. There ARE a few stupid items such as 1. need to always be connected and 2. files ONLY saved on the cloud - but I haven't seen anything that's simply "against Adobe" without an element of truth. I'd like to know exactly what items you are talking about.

You do realize that you do not need to be connected to use the cloud applications and that your files are stored on your computer? You also have online storage that can be synced by your files on your system. The CC applications are physical installations on your system that you download from Adobe.

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html

The whole process for me couldn't have been easier. Once I'm logged into the CC webpage, and have the application installer on my system, I can choose which applications to download and install with a click of the button. I am also notified when there are updates to install and use the same installer and can install updates to all of the applications simultaneously if I choose. It is so much easier then having to download seperate installlations of all of those applications seperately if I was using traditional licenses.

Triodin
07-12-2013, 09:41 AM
Yeah, not to mention the license floats with you like Lightwave's Dongle. If I'm traveling and need to work on something, I can pop on a computer and download CC, activate it on the new computer, and then get my work done. Then when I get home, I can reactivate my apps on my computer and keep working from there.

I've found a lot of people who are so strongly against it don't really understand the full deal with what Adobe CC is and what it isn't.

If you sign up for a year plan, I'm pretty sure it only checks for an internet connection once every 120 days to re-authenticate. So even though it's "cloud" you can be happily working offline.

It's not as bad as everyone's making it out to be. If you can't find a way to make $50 every 30 days for some design work or web work or video work, then you're probably not really the market for Adobe apps anyway.

Rayek
07-12-2013, 10:28 AM
Yeah, not to mention the license floats with you like Lightwave's Dongle. If I'm traveling and need to work on something, I can pop on a computer and download CC, activate it on the new computer, and then get my work done. Then when I get home, I can reactivate my apps on my computer and keep working from there.


I can do you one better (at least in comparison to Photoshop CC's floating license). The floating license of Photoshop assumes that you will have to have access to a very good and fast broadband connection. Also at least 2.5gb installation space (aside from the space required to download the installation files). And that Windows 7 or 8 / OsX 10.7/.8 is installed. Furthermore, at least a Pentium 4 level cpu is required for Windows, and a 64bit compatible CPU for OsX.

It's also not portable. I often visit and work at locations for and with clients that have no Photoshop or even a half decent image editor available. Older machines, older Windows and Mac installations abound. Sure, I can bring my own notebook (and I do), but files are often locked on client machines, and I am not allowed to copy those to my machine.

Compare to Photoline: 50mb installation space (!), either 32bit or 64bit version, fully portable on a usb stick, no floating license required, Win2K/XP and up compatible, OsX10.6, and a mere pentium level cpu required for Windows, and any Intel cpu mac. It will work on just about ANY older machine.

It's been very liberating to bring Photoline to clients and varying locations for image editing tasks - after I am done I remove my usb stick, and copy a (portable) trial version so they still have a working 30 days trial version they can use to work with their files (and yes, even after the trial ends Photoline still opens the files).

RudySchneider
07-12-2013, 10:41 AM
Don't have a strong opinion about Adobe CC, but it's been mentioned in other business arenas that "cloud-based tools are coming whether you like it or not." With the on-going issues of leaks and hacks, I'm concerned about the security aspects, but it's REALLY difficult to protect yourself from a tsunami.

I did see something regarding paid subscriptions, though, in which this group might have some interest, here (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57593433-92/dislike-adobe-subscriptions-xara-updates-its-design-suite/?tag=nl.e703&s_cid=e703&ttag=e703&ftag=TREd828722).

Triodin
07-12-2013, 11:00 AM
The floating license of Photoshop assumes that you will have to have access to a very good and fast broadband connection.

You're not wrong there. I've been lucky to let it cook overnight or have access to a nice broadband connection.

Will definitely need to check out Photoline though!

raymondtrace
07-12-2013, 11:13 AM
...It's also not portable...

Mine is portable.

I used my own old license of v6 (not CS6) and made a tidy portable version with help from here: http://usb.smithtech.us/apps/scripts.php

Although pretty old, PS6 gives me the CMYK support that I would not get from my portable GIMP. I'm sure the portable app builder script could be adapted to more modern versions.

But yeah, a floating license of a GB CC download does not seem very floatable.

Rayek
07-12-2013, 11:23 AM
You're not wrong there. I've been lucky to let it cook overnight or have access to a nice broadband connection.

Will definitely need to check out Photoline though!

Don't let the website fool you: Photoline's layer system blows Photoshop's one out of the water. Full 48bit/96bit, rgb/cmyk/lab support as well. The current official version lacks some great new features compared to the latest beta (which is only available to registered users).

Megalodon2.0
07-12-2013, 12:55 PM
You do realize that you do not need to be connected to use the cloud applications and that your files are stored on your computer? You also have online storage that can be synced by your files on your system. The CC applications are physical installations on your system that you download from Adobe.

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html

The whole process for me couldn't have been easier. Once I'm logged into the CC webpage, and have the application installer on my system, I can choose which applications to download and install with a click of the button. I am also notified when there are updates to install and use the same installer and can install updates to all of the applications simultaneously if I choose. It is so much easier then having to download seperate installlations of all of those applications seperately if I was using traditional licenses.

Uhmm... yeah, I know that. I was stating those items as being STUPID because they are untrue. They are in "the 5 Myths about CC" written by Terry White - and they are nowhere NEAR the major concerns that most people have.

Some people have a problem with the cost, but MOST are concerned with an exit strategy - i.e. being able to open and edit your files AFTER ending subscription - as you can do with a perpetual license.

And YOU have no problem getting CC onto your machine and working - though many seem to and still MANY of the "cloud features" that you are paying for still do not work. And as I said earlier... wait till you have to waste HOURS trying to get your subscription cancelled - if you ever do that is. Apparently - and I have not verified this - you are unable to do so online. You MUST talk with a customer service rep.

hrgiger
07-12-2013, 12:58 PM
And YOU have no problem getting CC onto your machine and working - though many seem to and still MANY of the "cloud features" that you are paying for still do not work. And as I said earlier... wait till you have to waste HOURS trying to get your subscription cancelled - if you ever do that is. Apparently - and I have not verified this - you are unable to do so online. You MUST talk with a customer service rep.

Wait a minute, I have to talk to a real person? Unreasonable! I had no idea it was so dire. Talking to people is so early 1990's.

Megalodon2.0
07-12-2013, 01:05 PM
Yeah, not to mention the license floats with you like Lightwave's Dongle. If I'm traveling and need to work on something, I can pop on a computer and download CC, activate it on the new computer, and then get my work done. Then when I get home, I can reactivate my apps on my computer and keep working from there.

I've found a lot of people who are so strongly against it don't really understand the full deal with what Adobe CC is and what it isn't.

If you sign up for a year plan, I'm pretty sure it only checks for an internet connection once every 120 days to re-authenticate. So even though it's "cloud" you can be happily working offline.

It's not as bad as everyone's making it out to be. If you can't find a way to make $50 every 30 days for some design work or web work or video work, then you're probably not really the market for Adobe apps anyway.

I don't think that you quite understand the primary reasons that so many of us are against this system. Being connected to the internet is not the big one - though as we have found with Microsoft, being connected ALL of the time is unacceptable to most. Even many of those who are angry are not as concerned about the cost as they are about being able to open/edit their work.

Once you stop your subscription - if you are using InDesign, AfterFX, Premiere, etc. - you cannot access your work. In effect, you MUST continue to pay Adobe to be ABLE to access your files. THAT is the primary concern that I have seen on so many forums, blogs and FB. Your work is held hostage by Adobe - this was NOT the case with perpetual licenses. Some may find this a small nuisance. I and many others think it is a HUGE deal. Having gone through the recent recession losing a great deal of business, I know FIRST HAND that an additional $50 (or more) each month is a burden that I am unwilling to entertain. It is far easier for a business to budget a one time cost and then KNOW that any files created with the program can easily be opened and edited "forever." This is not true with subscription as it is now. As I said before, this sets a VERY bad precedent and I cannot emphasize this more than I already have.

- - - Updated - - -


Wait a minute, I have to talk to a real person? Unreasonable! I had no idea it was so dire. Talking to people is so early 1990's.

Oh that's so funny. Wait till you have to spend HOURS trying to cancel. Then see how much you laugh. ;)

hrgiger
07-12-2013, 03:18 PM
Oh that's so funny. Wait till you have to spend HOURS trying to cancel. Then see how much you laugh. ;)

I'm more worried it will take me HOURS to renew.

Megalodon2.0
07-12-2013, 04:14 PM
I'm more worried it will take me HOURS to renew.
Actually if you looked at most forums discussing this, signing up AND renewing is simple and fast - Adobe made SURE of that. Unless of course you are in one of the countries in Europe that they don't have set up just yet.

There are people that have been trying to cancel for WEEKS. Like with MANY companies, it's FAR easier and quicker to take your money than to stop taking it.

DrStrik9
07-12-2013, 04:21 PM
Once you stop your subscription - if you are using InDesign, AfterFX, Premiere, etc. - you cannot access your work. In effect, you MUST continue to pay Adobe to be ABLE to access your files.- - - Updated - - -

<sarcasm>

Thank you, Megalodon 2.0, for your rigidly steadfast persistence in repeatedly beating the long-dead horse, in repeatedly and unbendingly making completely false and totally erroneous statements about Adobe's subscription software and subscription software in general. It's because of your rigid don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts unbending fanatical position that I know the world is a good place, and all of us who don't agree with you are going to be completely alright. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

</sarcasm>

Megalodon2.0
07-12-2013, 05:39 PM
<sarcasm>

Thank you, Megalodon 2.0, for your rigidly steadfast persistence in repeatedly beating the long-dead horse, in repeatedly and unbendingly making completely false and totally erroneous statements about Adobe's subscription software and subscription software in general. It's because of your rigid don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts unbending fanatical position that I know the world is a good place, and all of us who don't agree with you are going to be completely alright. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

</sarcasm>

And please explain to me where in ANY of my posts that my facts are incorrect?

Or perhaps you just prefer to be a sarcastic smarta_ _?

shrox
07-12-2013, 07:22 PM
<sarcasm>

Thank you, Megalodon 2.0, for your rigidly steadfast persistence in repeatedly beating the long-dead horse, in repeatedly and unbendingly making completely false and totally erroneous statements about Adobe's subscription software and subscription software in general. It's because of your rigid don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts unbending fanatical position that I know the world is a good place, and all of us who don't agree with you are going to be completely alright. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

</sarcasm>

The horse is dead because Adobe killed it.

Surrealist.
07-12-2013, 08:19 PM
wait till you have to waste HOURS trying to get your subscription cancelled - if you ever do that is. Apparently - and I have not verified this - you are unable to do so online. You MUST talk with a customer service rep.

Actually if you cancel before the 12 month agreement you chat with an agent online though a chat window. If you cancel in the 12th month so as not to renew in the next year it is just a matter of going to your account page. Same as a month to month.

115580
115581
115579

Megalodon2.0
07-12-2013, 08:54 PM
Actually if you cancel before the 12 month agreement you chat with an agent online though a chat window. If you cancel in the 12th month so as not to renew in the next year it is just a matter of going to your account page. Same as a month to month.

Since I won't be subscribing, I can only go by what I've read from other subscribers. Here are a few of the problems, not just unsubscribing. And remember, many of those unsubscribing may be doing so AFTER their 12 month agreement since subscription has been going on for I think a little over a year.



----------------
Case #1
"Derek Letourneau
Be warned folks, I am now a good couple weeks into trying to have my Creative Cloud subscription cancelled. Despite my contacting customer service chat on their website, a service rep on the telephone, and receiving some assistance with the folks that run this page, I have been unable to cancel.

To be clear, I am not looking to violate any terms of the contract. I will pay what the contract stipulates on cancelation. I simply wish to cancel, and they are not accommodating.

I am posting about my issues on several social networking pages and forums. They simply hold you hostage and continue putting the charges through to your credit card. "

Adobe Response:
"Hi Derek, again our sincerest apologies. The tech team is still working out a bug on the backend here. If you are charged on the 15th, we will refund the charge. We will also discount your cancellation fee due to this frustrating experience. I will, as promised, keep you updated."
----------------
Case #2
"I just wanted you guys to know that I'm just about at the point that I'm going to get rid of Dreamweaver and cancel my entire Creative Cloud Subscription. I have had nothing but trouble getting Dreamwever CC to work with PHP and mySQL (which I need it to do). If I can't find an easy workaround to this were it will a) connect to a database b) hold that connection c) find the fields inside the database and d) not crash constantly I'll keep using it and maintain my subscription.

I have been a long and loyal Adobe customer and I have been with you through many changes but this is starting to now prevent me form working effectively. And if this can not be fixed or resolved I will have no choice but to find a different tool."
------------------
Case #3
Christie Michele
"With all due respect, does Adobe have a US based tech support line that I can call and speak with someone. We paid for 2 years of Creative Cloud last year in October and have been dealing with the tech support phone number listed (1-800-833-6687) since January 14th to resolve 6 months of Creative Cloud cards not working.

We have one computer which now cannot use any of the products that were paid for last October now. We have spent countless hours with numerous techs on this number and have everything well documented in a spreadsheet with who we talked to, conflicting information, etc. We need RESULTS for the products we paid for LAST YEAR. We love Adobe products, but this is getting ridiculous. Thank you."

Adobe Response:
"Hi Christie, can you private message us your Adobe ID and any other helpful information? Luciano Daluz Can you also send us your Adobe ID? We'll see what we can do to help."
-----------------
Case #4
Velcro Nieves
"Good luck to anyone that ever decides to cancel their creative cloud subscription. Half an hour on chat with the customer service rep and another 30 min on the phone with them and it's still not done. I'm waiting 2-4 business days for a "senior representative" to contact me.. just to cancel. Incredible.... be warned folks..."
----------------



And there are many, many more. So apparently the "cancel button" doesn't quite work - for SOME - as expected. Hopefully for everyone here it will work perfectly when they have to unsubscribe because the price has gone up and up. :D

saranine
07-12-2013, 09:47 PM
It will interesting to see if/when the price of CC goes up. Adobe could also segment their product. There could be basic cloud, home cloud, professional cloud, premium cloud, enterprise cloud and intergalactic cloud. OK, I decided to deviate from my sarcastic allusion to Microsoft's business models with that last one :)

So far the free apps that I downloaded haven't been impressive in their download rate. I have fast internet. It would take me awhile to download the whole CC. People with dialup, spotty wireless etc - have to feel sorry for them.

Surrealist.
07-13-2013, 04:30 AM
Since I won't be subscribing, I can only go by what I've read from other subscribers. Here are a few of the problems, not just unsubscribing. And remember, many of those unsubscribing may be doing so AFTER their 12 month agreement since subscription has been going on for I think a little over a year.

There are some issues apparently but this is hardly evidence that you can not or is not set up to do it online which was the only point I was making. And if everything was perfect everywhere, the internet would not be rife with complaints and problems and rants for pretty much any company on any issue 24/7 year after year. No company is free of this. Certainly not NewTek. So again it is just information - factual or not - that can be reacted to any way one pleases. If I went by the rants that take place on websites on actually just about any issue, I'd just stay home and not do anything. And I'd never buy any software for sure. Wouldn't even bother to download Blender because its a piece of sh#$%^&&t and the interface sucks. Why bother? I constantly travel so I am always going to blogs and so on to get info. And if I listened to the "advice" of some of the morons out there, I'd never get anywhere. You have to evaluate information. Not all information has equal importance nor is it all equally credible or reliable.

No one can argue that there is discontent to this move by Adobe. And much of it is borderline violent. But I think personally you have to weed through the information and put it into perspective. One thing is for sure. The people that are happy about it are not exactly coming online to rant about how great it is. That is just the nature of people by and large on most subjects. So we hardly even have a fair and balanced view statistically about what the reaction is based on online posts. Sure you could have thousands of responses against it. But there could be a much greater percentage of people happily getting along with no real incentive to come online other than the few that occasionally pop in to offer some levity which is all I am trying to do.

It is not a one way argument.

hrgiger
07-13-2013, 05:42 AM
i have yet to cancel so i cant say how seamless the process is but i did have a question about my cc subscription and was able to talk to an adobe represenative online chat without wait. Again the whole experience so far has been positive. fast downloads, auto installs of downloads, no license issues, good support, email notifications of monthly payment info.... everyone is hating on Adobe...i say dont hate the playa, hate the game.

jasonwestmas
07-13-2013, 09:09 AM
i have yet to cancel so i cant say how seamless the process is but i did have a question about my cc subscription and was able to talk to an adobe represenative online chat without wait. Again the whole experience so far has been positive. fast downloads, auto installs of downloads, no license issues, good support, email notifications of monthly payment info.... everyone is hating on Adobe...i say dont hate the playa, hate the game.

Can't argue with that. . . but yer right about the game, it isn't perfect. All I know is companies get weird about profits but I can't really blame them. I think the best way to handle things is to choose what works best for you. Rioting on the net. . . not really productive imo.

Megalodon2.0
07-13-2013, 02:41 PM
No one can argue that there is discontent to this move by Adobe. And much of it is borderline violent.
Very true. But then it WAS the fault of Adobe who sprang this on EVERYONE suddenly. Apparently Scott Kirby did not know since in an April '12 blog we responded to a customer asking "Do we HAVE to subscribe to CC?" and he responded with "No, you can buy the boxed version or subscribe - it's YOUR choice."


i have yet to cancel so i cant say how seamless the process is but i did have a question about my cc subscription and was able to talk to an adobe represenative online chat without wait. Again the whole experience so far has been positive. fast downloads, auto installs of downloads, no license issues, good support, email notifications of monthly payment info.... everyone is hating on Adobe...i say dont hate the playa, hate the game.
The game? Adobe is the one who CHANGED THE RULES. The software "game" is fine, it's Adobe that is the problem here.


Can't argue with that. . . but yer right about the game, it isn't perfect. All I know is companies get weird about profits but I can't really blame them. I think the best way to handle things is to choose what works best for you. Rioting on the net. . . not really productive imo.
Actually... it IS productive. Without the "rioting on the net" Adobe would not have been "forced" to admit that many of their customers are not happy NOR would they have said anything about looking into an "exit strategy" for those who want to end their subscription at some point. "Picketing" does work. Apparently Microsoft was swayed by the online backlash.

Megalodon2.0
07-13-2013, 04:34 PM
Created by someone over at Creative Cow:

http://adobe2014.tumblr.com/

jasonwestmas
07-13-2013, 06:22 PM
well that's just it man, Adobe isn't going to admit anything, nor will any other software company, that's not how it works. We aren't in a court room as much as people want us to be.

Simply speak with your pocket book. shouting at companies goes nowhere, but thanks for letting us know your thoughts.

Megalodon2.0
07-13-2013, 08:01 PM
Simply speak with your pocket book. shouting at companies goes nowhere, but thanks for letting us know your thoughts.

I am. I won't be buying anything Adobe any more. Fortunately it doesn't hurt me that much - more of an annoyance.

But you are wrong as I indicated above - shouting at companies - with MANY voices - DOES go somewhere. Without CONTINUED shouting, Adobe would be happy because you have "gone away."

You're welcome. ;)

Seriously though, this IS a problem for the entire software industry IF Adobe succeeds. If people just lay down and take it, then they WILL roll right over us. I just don't want to see that happen. And judging from many forums and blogs (and FB) it seems that there are a great many people who believe the same.

GandB
07-13-2013, 09:02 PM
shouting at companies goes nowhere

It sure made M$ do a 180 on their announced plans for the X Box One.

Surrealist.
07-14-2013, 02:40 AM
Created by someone over at Creative Cow:

http://adobe2014.tumblr.com/

This supports what I have been saying. This is a perfect example of rabble rousing. A "cause" to "take down Adobe" in effect is what they are asking. Join up with the mob against Adobe. Sorry. Don't count me in. I have the best intentions for that company even if thousands of people find in their own limited way of thinking that Adobe does not have the best intentions for me. It is my freedom to choose who I support and I'll take a major software company that gives me solutions I use for my business over an angry mob who would ask me to be happy with earlier versions or switch to other software instead. WTF? Who do you asses think you are? Really!

Take one for the cause? Are you kidding me? I have work to do. And I'll chose my software by myself thank you very much. I don't need the dictates of some angry mob influencing how I work. So who has the best intentions for who here? That is an interesting dichotomy.


1) it would starve them of subscriptions at a time when they really need to prove they work, because it is all they are offering.

I can not fathom how wishing harm on a company is in a sane frame of mind. In some dumb *** twisted line of thinking the mob will "bring them to their knees" and make them change by force. That is such a flawed line of thinking. If somehow Adobe in a limping financial state will be a company better off. It really boggles the mind.

Frankly this kinda thing ought to be banned from this forum. I find it disturbing as hell and it is not at all conducive to positive interchange of ideas. Especially on a site hosted by another software company that also has relations, mind you with, Adobe.

Maybe I am the odd man out here. But I am NOT in favor of ill intent toward any software company anywhere. I do not see them as the enemy.

JohnMarchant
07-14-2013, 03:14 AM
Have to agree mate. much as im not really a fan of the whole CC thing and that goes not only for Adobe, to wish ill on a company serves no one at all.

If you want pirated CC there are enough links on web for that.

hrgiger
07-14-2013, 06:08 AM
yeah there are probably a lot of good employees at adobe who wouldnt like that plan. arent we always starting threads about job losses and layoffs in this industry? but lets push towards that direction with adobe? either buy the product or dont. voice your opinion. the market will decide if adobe is successful.

shrox
07-14-2013, 09:51 AM
yeah there are probably a lot of good employees at adobe who wouldnt like that plan. arent we always starting threads about job losses and layoffs in this industry? but lets push towards that direction with adobe? either buy the product or dont. voice your opinion. the market will decide if adobe is successful.

One does chose who one works for.

hrgiger
07-14-2013, 01:10 PM
One does chose who one works for.

that might be the worst rationalization ive ever heard. if i quit my job everytime my employer did something i didnt agree with id be looking for a job several times a year.

shrox
07-14-2013, 01:28 PM
that might be the worst rationalization ive ever heard. if i quit my job everytime my employer did something i didnt agree with id be looking for a job several times a year.

If one wants to jump to such extremes, one may. Or one may simply see it as a forum post response.

I am a self employed model rocket designer who uses Lightwave for design and rendering because I choose to. I chose not to work for anybody anymore, except my customers. If did something in model rocketry that caused such and uproar as CC, I would take pause...

www.shrockets.com

jasonwestmas
07-14-2013, 01:50 PM
This supports what I have been saying. This is a perfect example of rabble rousing. A "cause" to "take down Adobe" in effect is what they are asking. Join up with the mob against Adobe. Sorry. Don't count me in. I have the best intentions for that company even if thousands of people find in their own limited way of thinking that Adobe does not have the best intentions for me. It is my freedom to choose who I support and I'll take a major software company that gives me solutions I use for my business over an angry mob who would ask me to be happy with earlier versions or switch to other software instead. WTF? Who do you asses think you are? Really!

Take one for the cause? Are you kidding me? I have work to do. And I'll chose my software by myself thank you very much. I don't need the dictates of some angry mob influencing how I work. So who has the best intentions for who here? That is an interesting dichotomy.



I can not fathom how wishing harm on a company is in a sane frame of mind. In some dumb *** twisted line of thinking the mob will "bring them to their knees" and make them change by force. That is such a flawed line of thinking. If somehow Adobe in a limping financial state will be a company better off. It really boggles the mind.

Frankly this kinda thing ought to be banned from this forum. I find it disturbing as hell and it is not at all conducive to positive interchange of ideas. Especially on a site hosted by another software company that also has relations, mind you with, Adobe.

Maybe I am the odd man out here. But I am NOT in favor of ill intent toward any software company anywhere. I do not see them as the enemy.

Yep. As much as I support conscious awareness of the market place, this position of self-appointed authority "we must punish those we don't agree with lots of shouting and anger" is a mob-like attitude. I won't be supporting such attitudes and It's not our place to punish people with our obnoxiousness.

Megalodon2.0
07-14-2013, 03:00 PM
This supports what I have been saying. This is a perfect example of rabble rousing. A "cause" to "take down Adobe" in effect is what they are asking. Join up with the mob against Adobe. Sorry. Don't count me in. I have the best intentions for that company even if thousands of people find in their own limited way of thinking that Adobe does not have the best intentions for me. It is my freedom to choose who I support and I'll take a major software company that gives me solutions I use for my business over an angry mob who would ask me to be happy with earlier versions or switch to other software instead. WTF? Who do you asses think you are? Really!

So you don't see the effectiveness of removing income from Adobe IN ORDER TO force them to revisit their subscription-only decision? You don't think that the "voting with your wallet" market force is something that should NOT be done - because THAT is exactly what he is talking about. Deprive Adobe of income and it WILL take Adobe down to a point where they are FORCED to reckon with their customers.

So you would just rather allow ANY software company to make a decision that many do not like - even if you do - to do ANYTHING they want... such as force rental on their customers FOREVER in order to be able to open their files? What do you think "voting with your wallet" means? It MEANS taking away cash FROM Adobe here. It will EITHER bring them down completely - which we KNOW that will not happen - or they will have to compromise - which is what WE are talking about. Adobe (and their shareholders) will not allow the company to sink into oblivion due to a stupid marketing decision and will therefore reverse (or alter) course. Pretty simple to understand that.

You are intentionally ignoring what the thrust of the article is intending - which is stated CLEARLY:

"In terms of realistic goals (given adobe cannot go back to perpetual licenses), a lot of people are mentioning a loyalty archive of the software to be provided after five years continuous subscription. You would be $3000 in at that point - and Adobe would grant you an archive of the master suite as it stands then. It’s a lease buy out - you can work and pay towards it and then, with the software archive providing you the same sense of security in 2018 that we have now with CS6 in 2013 - you can begin the half decade lease to buyout process again. This is very reasonable - it only asks Adobe to actually sell anything once in a decade (a new five year subscription cycle) and it gives us, as subscribers, some tiny, tiny sense of control over our tools."

You try to make it sound like we want Adobe to die a slow death and be gone with the company. That.... would be a lie perpetrated by YOU. The article states it's intended goal and YOU choose to apply a sinister and "rabble-rousing" POV. These people - AND my6self - are ONLY trying to get Adobe to compromise on something that - as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times - we as end users do not like. If you LIKE having to rent your software forever, fine. But don't call us "rabble rousers" when you are not telling everyone the truth. Your response to that webpage I posted easily shows that you are the one rabble-rousing against those of us petitioning Adobe by making false statements. Anyone reading that article can EASILY see what the intention is.

Megalodon2.0
07-14-2013, 03:05 PM
Yep. As much as I support conscious awareness of the market place, this position of self-appointed authority "we must punish those we don't agree with lots of shouting and anger" is a mob-like attitude. I won't be supporting such attitudes and It's not our place to punish people with our obnoxiousness.

No.... it's called an ORGANIZED "vote with your wallet" campaign. It's called grass-roots. What do you think voting with your wallet means? We WANT to use Adobe software, but at the same time we don't want this subscription system. We are telling Adobe that we WANT a compromise.

It is incomprehensible to me that so many people fail to see see. In one breath people say "vote with your wallet" and in the next - when it's organized - they call it wrong and "mob-like." So it's okay for individuals to "vote with their wallets" but NOT when it's an organized agenda to CHANGE something?

I think that this is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

shrox
07-14-2013, 03:06 PM
It's true that the staff of Adobe will feel layoff pain before the decision makers will. But you chose who you work for...

jasonwestmas
07-14-2013, 03:46 PM
No.... it's called an ORGANIZED "vote with your wallet" campaign. It's called grass-roots. What do you think voting with your wallet means? We WANT to use Adobe software, but at the same time we don't want this subscription system. We are telling Adobe that we WANT a compromise.

It is incomprehensible to me that so many people fail to see see. In one breath people say "vote with your wallet" and in the next - when it's organized - they call it wrong and "mob-like." So it's okay for individuals to "vote with their wallets" but NOT when it's an organized agenda to CHANGE something?
I think that this is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

Well sure, organization can be good but only with a healthy attitude. . . There is an attitude out there that has a bitter and angry agenda and that's not something I would want to be identified with. It causes more of a mess than anything else ime. It's the same when choosing who to work for in the world, the atmosphere of the workplace is everything.

Megalodon2.0
07-14-2013, 04:32 PM
Well sure, organization can be good but only with a healthy attitude. . . There is an attitude out there that has a bitter and angry agenda and that's not something I would want to be identified with. It causes more of a mess than anything else ime. It's the same when choosing who to work for in the world, the atmosphere of the workplace is everything.
It's angry because Adobe FORCED this decision on their customers knowing full well that it would alienate many of us. They just didn't foresee it would be such a huge backlash otherwise they would have had a press release ready to assuage concerns. They also told us that there would not be an upgrade path more than two versions back so that if CS4 users wanted to be able to upgrade to CS7 (yes, they stated CS7) then we would have to upgrade to CS6 by the end of December '12. And then suddenly in May they CHOSE to remove that option for many of us. So yeah, some of us are mad. But we're more angry that they expect us to rent forever to be able to open/edit our files.

Where do you think the energy comes from for change? Much of it is ANGER at the way things are so they want to change it. Just because you don't LIKE the anger does not negate the FACT that it works to bring together many people who want that change. Not comparing this to the abortion debate, but the concept is the same. Many people are religious and don't want abortion; some people just don't like it; others are violently opposed - THEIR GOAL is the same in that they want abortion stopped. For us, the VERY angry or the mildly angry or those who just don't like what Adobe is doing - the goal is the same: make Adobe change course.

Just because you don't like the way SOME people are acting does not mean that the reasons for wanting Adobe to change are wrong. The end result is the same for everyone - CHOICE.

jasonwestmas
07-14-2013, 05:27 PM
This thing is obiously more personal to some but I don't take it that seriously. I just use whatever tools makes sense at the time and I don't see anything being forced on me, that's where people differ. Also, historically speaking I haven't been impressed with how people manage their anger in any situation. . .so in this case I doubt things would be any different or any more organized. Ime, the best results come from calm and calculated movements toward something bigger than personal frustrations or feelings of being cheated.

I'll just leave it at that.

hrgiger
07-14-2013, 07:03 PM
Its a moot point anyway. This "lets strangle Adobe's numbers" campaign has little chance of making a real impact. Not only are many people who cannot simply boycott the Adobe products that they currently depend on for work, but the CC program is bringing a lot of new users who wouldn't have otherwise used Adobe products at all, at least legally so I can't see Adobe missing their numbers by the huge margin that mr tumblr there is hoping for.

Rayek
07-14-2013, 07:17 PM
Its a moot point anyway. This "lets strangle Adobe's numbers" campaign has little chance of making a real impact. Not only are many people who cannot simply boycott the Adobe products that they currently depend on for work, but the CC program is bringing a lot of new users who wouldn't have otherwise used Adobe products at all, at least legally so I can't see Adobe missing their numbers by the huge margin that mr tumblr there is hoping for.

Of course.

And then there are people like me who teach the new generation of students (and potential future customers of Adobe) who tell their students that they will not jump on the CC train because they feel the subscription-only model is one to be avoided. We have had some interesting discussions.

In my web coding classes I already stopped using any Adobe product a while ago. There are far better coding environments than Dreamweaver out there (most free). I also tell them that Photoshop and Illustrator are completely inadequate for proper web graphics optimization, and other (free and/or open source) products must be used. Unfortunately Adobe stopped development of Fireworks (another brilliant move) so I have no other choice but to deride Adobe for their inadequacy in providing design tools that can properly export graphics for the web. (Muse is absolutely horrendous.)

Most of the instructors I work with harbour quite negative opinions about the CC model for a variety of reasons. I am not the only one, and each and everyone voices their opinions to their students.

hrgiger
07-14-2013, 07:24 PM
Yeah, long term I could maybe see an impact. Ideally, Adobe would offer a choice but they seem to be pretty deadset on this current path.

Rayek
07-14-2013, 07:27 PM
Yeah, long term I could maybe see an impact. Ideally, Adobe would offer a choice but they seem to be pretty deadset on this current path.

No matter what happens, there'll be interesting times ahead :-)

Megalodon2.0
07-14-2013, 07:46 PM
Yeah, long term I could maybe see an impact. Ideally, Adobe would offer a choice but they seem to be pretty deadset on this current path.
I agree. Adobe hasn't said anything about being able to open/edit files AFTER ending subscription. They've said that we SHOULD be able to, but haven't said anything about HOW this can be done. IMO they are simply waiting to see what the numbers show. If they show a marked increase and/or are even close to their projections they'll come back and say essentially tough to all of us who are concerned about this. If the numbers are down, then they will have formulated an response accordingly - more than likely it will be a half-assed answer. And if their numbers are way down - which quite honestly I do not expect - then we can see a course correction where somehow they will allow a buy-out to use the software perpetually after a certain length of subscription.

No matter what happens, there'll be interesting times ahead :-)
Definitely. It's going to be an interesting year - or two. ;)

shrox
07-14-2013, 08:22 PM
I wonder if someone could write a stand alone converter from CC format to say CS4 format.

hrgiger
07-14-2013, 08:30 PM
I see them offering a choice eventually, but somehow, I can see them offering more incentive to go the CC route. Like raising the price of a CS version or lowering the CC subscription route.

Megalodon2.0
07-14-2013, 08:42 PM
I wonder if someone could write a stand alone converter from CC format to say CS4 format.
Good question. Since I'm not a programmer, I have no idea how long it would take or if it would even be worthwhile to sell. I would also bet that there will be some things - like new filters in PS - that would simply not translate into CS.

I see them offering a choice eventually, but somehow, I can see them offering more incentive to go the CC route. Like raising the price of a CS version or lowering the CC subscription route.
For ME.... I would rather pay more for a CS version than pay less for a CC version.

Actually, that's not a bad idea. I would pay (for example) $3k for a CS version where a CC version may cost $1.5k or thereabouts. This way people on CC would ultimately have a way out so they could open their files - CC people would get a serious discount on a perpetual CS license as opposed to people like me who want nothing to do with CC. That is REALLY a good suggestion!

Surrealist.
07-14-2013, 09:22 PM
I just think it would be a good idea for Adobe to offer the choice. I draw with line with a boycott and the tactics that go with it. Just not for me and I feel it is more destructive than good in this case. That is my opinion.

Boycotts have their place though and they are an effective route to take in some cases where a large corporation is doing actual harm. And I know. Some of you people feel that CC is harmful. I don't see it that way. But I see a boycott in this case as potentially harmful and distasteful especially gone on about here on this forum.

That will be all I have to say about it.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 12:23 AM
Boycotts have their place though and they are an effective route to take in some cases where a large corporation is doing actual harm. And I know. Some of you people feel that CC is harmful. I don't see it that way. But I see a boycott in this case as potentially harmful and distasteful especially gone on about here on this forum.

Potentially harmful and distasteful? What about the potential "harm" in MANY other software companies seeing the success of this action? What if ALL of your favorite software became subscription ONLY and you would need to rent it forever in order to open your files? How much are you willing to pay EACH MONTH in order to access your software? $100 a month? $250 a month? $500 a month or more? What kind of harm do you think that could end up doing to many people? Of course you have to define "harm," but I suspect that many people define it differently and what is harmful to one person is just an annoyance to another. As I said earlier, to me this Adobe move is only an annoyance. I use Production Premium CS4 and out of that only use Photoshop & Illustrator occasionally, and AfterFx a little more. Removing Adobe from my toolset will not hurt me. But losing other tools that may end up as rent-only WILL hurt me. I am thinking about the future, not just about the present.

This action against Adobe is not JUST against Adobe, it is against setting a dangerous precedent. Look at the backlash against Microsoft. They backed down. And if you looked at some of the forums where they were objecting, there was EXTREMELY harsh language used there - some similar to that against Adobe. If M$ had succeeded and everyone just accepted it - as so many have simply accepted what Adobe has done - then what might that have done to the gaming industry?

This is MORE than against Adobe, it is against a future of rent-only and end users getting the VERY short end of the stick.

Surrealist.
07-15-2013, 01:50 AM
I can tell you one thing for sure. I don't need people like you with your attitude, and the "causes" you support, your tactics and general negative and destructive approach to things, looking out for my future or well being. Thanks but no thanks. I can look out for myself, thank you very much, and am willing to suffer the consequences of my own decisions. And I have no intention of trying to control what happens with the software industry. I can work with what ever hand I am dealt and continue creating art which is what I do, and stay focused on. There are no certainties in life other than your own ability to create. And further I don't see a company or their actions as a threat to that ability no matter what they do. I am not victim and I don't subscribe to that attitude and approach to life.

I respect your opinions but I see them as just that. And you can feel however you want about it as your right. Obviously you see it as chivalry. But I can tell you if this is your way of looking out for me, No thanks.

I won't speak for anyone else.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 02:03 AM
I can tell you one thing for sure. I don't need people like you with your attitude, and the "causes" you support, your tactics and general negative and destructive approach to things, looking out for my future or well being. Thanks but no thanks. I can look out for myself, thank you very much, and am willing to suffer the consequences of my own decisions.

My attitude? My tactics? My destructive approach?

Well I certainly prefer it to your passive aggressiveness and ignoring/not caring about the potential consequences. Glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me AND others.

Standing up NOW when it can be effective is important. But as you've stated, this is not your "cause." I'm not a "victim" either - I choose to "fight" rather than simply accept and shrug my shoulders.

But you're right, this is just my opinion. Fortunately there are at least 36k + who agree with my POV. :)

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 02:25 AM
Just thought I'd add another professionals POV.

From a thread over at CGTalk; Richard Rosenman - co-owner of Hatch Studios - and a plug-in developer for Adobe software:
-------------------------

I know this is a thread about alternatives (and an excellent one at that) but I thought I'd post my alternative:

We upgraded all our older versions to CS6, purchased the number of required licenses, and we'll be sticking with that indefinitely until a viable alternative comes along.

Adobe's CC is a forced, gun-to-the-head upgrade fueled by nothing more than greed and clearly customers don't appreciate that. We, for one, have lost any interest in Adobe from here on in.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in the industry now. They had a massive backlash (enough to reconsider 'tweaking' their 'plans') but unfortunately too many disgruntled artists still committed because they don't have an alternative: and Adobe knows this.

Now is the time for a competitor such as Nuke, for instance, to offer competitively priced options that post-Adobe clients would totally scramble to and jump on. I know we would.

Keep the alternatives flowing!

-Richard

www.hatchstudios.net
www.richardrosenman.com

erikals
07-15-2013, 04:24 AM
in a way i'd like to thank Adobe, making me search for alternatives...

just to repeat...
http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/logo/adobe-creative-cloud?original=1

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 06:24 AM
Potentially harmful and distasteful? What about the potential "harm" in MANY other software companies seeing the success of this action? What if ALL of your favorite software became subscription ONLY and you would need to rent it forever in order to open your files? How much are you willing to pay EACH MONTH in order to access your software? $100 a month? $250 a month? $500 a month or more? What kind of harm do you think that could end up doing to many people? Of course you have to define "harm," but I suspect that many people define it differently and what is harmful to one person is just an annoyance to another. As I said earlier, to me this Adobe move is only an annoyance. I use Production Premium CS4 and out of that only use Photoshop & Illustrator occasionally, and AfterFx a little more. Removing Adobe from my toolset will not hurt me. But losing other tools that may end up as rent-only WILL hurt me. I am thinking about the future, not just about the present.

This action against Adobe is not JUST against Adobe, it is against setting a dangerous precedent. Look at the backlash against Microsoft. They backed down. And if you looked at some of the forums where they were objecting, there was EXTREMELY harsh language used there - some similar to that against Adobe. If M$ had succeeded and everyone just accepted it - as so many have simply accepted what Adobe has done - then what might that have done to the gaming industry?

This is MORE than against Adobe, it is against a future of rent-only and end users getting the VERY short end of the stick.

sigh...

Lol, microsoft backed down because they have a direct competitor (PS4) that is not only underselling them in price but were also taunting them with their sharing policies as well as cloud based service by saying we are not doing any of those things. Adobe has no such competitor, at least not a widely apparent one. The microsoft example is really not an example at all in this case.

as far as would i pay each month to use my software? yes. if the price was about equivalent to what a typical license would be then i dont see the issue. you,ve beat the pay to access your files dead horse for all its worth.

VonBon
07-15-2013, 08:23 AM
:stumped: I thought this horse was dead.
:devil: Let me try again...................:2guns:

jasonwestmas
07-15-2013, 08:30 AM
I just think it would be a good idea for Adobe to offer the choice. I draw with line with a boycott and the tactics that go with it. Just not for me and I feel it is more destructive than good in this case. That is my opinion.

Boycotts have their place though and they are an effective route to take in some cases where a large corporation is doing actual harm. And I know. Some of you people feel that CC is harmful. I don't see it that way. But I see a boycott in this case as potentially harmful and distasteful especially gone on about here on this forum.

That will be all I have to say about it.

Boycotting is more than just resisting, it's similar to an act of war. Ironically it takes on familiar forms of "if you support so and so with your dirty money then we will hate you and give you lots of crap". So if we take on that form of attitude as us being victimized, we are no better than the thing we are choosing to resist. I'm not exaggerating either, I've seen these tactics first hand.

VonBon
07-15-2013, 09:11 AM
:eek: OMG!!!
its back already, i just put like 2 clips in it. 8~

If people want to use the CC so what, it'll be up to the rest of us
to invest in another company to insure that "all" of us will have
a choice in the future.

There are good reasons not to use CC, and some people just
want understand them no matter what you say or how you
explain it to them.

The only good thing about the CC program is that people who would
normally pirate adobe products, not because they want to, but because
they can't afford one lump sum, will now have access to adobe products
legally. For people in countries where the annual income is low, CC will
benefit them greatly. This is Adobes new market base.

The only SINISTER thing about this whole debacle is the fact that you
can ONLY rent the software. Although i must say that my CS doesn't work
anymore and now my Photoshop 6.0 no longer works either (says not enough ram).
So when "internet" activated and outdated software are no longer supported by the
company, Do we really own the software?.... or are we being duped into thinking so.

"I will never buy another Adobe product ever, and if i need it I will pirated it" :tsktsk:

jasonwestmas
07-15-2013, 09:17 AM
I simply want more competition in this image editing arena, not less. So I take the additive approach more than the outright rebellion approach. I'll be looking for alternatives as well since I do that all the time anyway.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 01:45 PM
I simply want more competition in this image editing arena, not less. So I take the additive approach more than the outright rebellion approach. I'll be looking for alternatives as well since I do that all the time anyway.

I agree with the alternative app-search approach. I'm doing this too. When the time comes I will be purchasing Hitfilm and Xara Designer Pro to replace most of my Adobe products. I am hopeful that this move by Adobe sill spur MUCH more competition - which is ALWAYS good for the consumer.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 01:51 PM
The only SINISTER thing about this whole debacle is the fact that you
can ONLY rent the software. Although i must say that my CS doesn't work
anymore and now my Photoshop 6.0 no longer works either (says not enough ram).
So when "internet" activated and outdated software are no longer supported by the
company, Do we really own the software?.... or are we being duped into thinking so.

Why does your CS not work any more? Of course we own the software license. I have a machine running Win2K in order to use older software, and according to those on many forums others do as well. It's not uncommon at all. As I said earlier in this thread I use LW5.5 for certain modeling tasks due to the LScript. I will keep LW5.5 running as long as I need it - into the 2020's and beyond if need be. At least with the current Newtek licensing scheme, I CAN do this. But NOT with CC subscription. Not to mention the fact that I can sell my last version of Adobe software so it STILL retains some value.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 01:58 PM
sigh...

Lol, microsoft backed down because they have a direct competitor (PS4) that is not only underselling them in price but were also taunting them with their sharing policies as well as cloud based service by saying we are not doing any of those things. Adobe has no such competitor, at least not a widely apparent one. The microsoft example is really not an example at all in this case.
sigh...

Yes, that's right. But would Microsoft have backed down if there was no backlash at all? I think you clearly know that the answer is a big NO. It's only when people take action that companies listen. If people do nothing, then the company will realize that they have made the right decision. Removing the choice is not good for the consumer.


as far as would i pay each month to use my software? yes. if the price was about equivalent to what a typical license would be then i dont see the issue. you,ve beat the pay to access your files dead horse for all its worth.
Yes I have, and just because YOU have no problem with it means exactly what to everyone else? This exact problem has been stated in countless forums as a HUGE obstacle. So since it doesn't really affect you you choose to simply ignore it or not care or belittle people who DO care? Nice guy.

VonBon
07-15-2013, 02:22 PM
I'm thinking that CS doesn't work because i have CS3 installed.
It just hangs up when loading and never starts, although it will
work for a while when first installed. As for PS 6.0, it worked the
first day I installed it and now it says not enough memory. It could
have something to do with the OS. Now I'll have to see if I can find
a copy of XP.

- - - Updated - - -

OR!!!........I could be the target of Adobes Wrath. 8/

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 02:29 PM
sigh...

Yes, that's right. But would Microsoft have backed down if there was no backlash at all? I think you clearly know that the answer is a big NO. It's only when people take action that companies listen. If people do nothing, then the company will realize that they have made the right decision. Removing the choice is not good for the consumer.

My point is and continues to be that if there was no playstation, Microsoft in all likelyhood would have continued with their plan as is. But since they stood to lose a lot against sales of the PS4, they made their offering more similar. Adobe does not have that problem. If their numbers are good as far as subscribers, they may not care too much about a bunch of people complaining on the net.



Yes I have, and just because YOU have no problem with it means exactly what to everyone else? This exact problem has been stated in countless forums as a HUGE obstacle. So since it doesn't really affect you you choose to simply ignore it or not care or belittle people who DO care? Nice guy.

A huge obstacle to those who don't like it. You speak as if I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with it.

And belittle people, no. I just choose not to let you speak for those of us who are fine with the subscription model. You can say its bad for everyone if you want. But you're simply wrong.

bobakabob
07-15-2013, 02:35 PM
Completely agree with hrgiger, there are some people here who think shouting is the same as debating. Whatever happened to listening/reading posts carefully? I got shouted down in this forum by the very same individual for agreeing with his point of view ;)

erikals
07-15-2013, 02:42 PM
You can say its bad for everyone if you want. But you're simply wrong.

well, for any user that has, say, 500+ .psd files on his PC, trying to move away from PS might become a "challenge".
you would have to convert all those files, in order to move away from the CC subscription.

(most PS users will have at least 500+ files)

and as for making a "micro" change to the .psd file later on... sorry, no can do, you will have to subscribe again...

+all the other issues.

it's fine being fine with it, though i ask myself if these users are hobbyists, or if they just haven't understood what it really means. (sorry for being harsh)

shrox
07-15-2013, 03:04 PM
CC format convertor?

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 03:10 PM
I'm well aware of what it means erikals. But are you going to do what you have to do, or are you going to sit down in a tarp and douse yourself with gasoline and say Adobe better change this or I"m going to light myself on fire? That's basically what this all sounds like.

The CC subscription is what Adobe is doing right now. Voice your opinion all you want, Complain all you want. But in the end, Adobe may or may not change this new plan despite how many users feel about it. So you're left with a choice, either jump on board the Adobe CC plan and continue to use the software and continue to complain if you want. Or find alternative software and move away from Adobe and do not support them with your dollars.

As far as users and them converting their files or the difficulty some users may find in moving away from Adobe even if they would like to. I won't speak for them. Which is the point a lot of people here seem to be missing. I find the CC subscription convenient and preferable to the traditional license. If I choose to give up the subscription at some point then I will plan for that and make any necessary changes so that I may use my files as needed. I use what is best for me, not some idea of what is I think is best for every single user.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 03:19 PM
A huge obstacle to those who don't like it. You speak as if I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with it.

And belittle people, no. I just choose not to let you speak for those of us who are fine with the subscription model. You can say its bad for everyone if you want. But you're simply wrong.

You don't have a problem with it because YOU don't have THE problem. You use PS and don't have any problem transferring files. But as we all know, this is MORE than just PS. You can't open InDesign, AfterFX or Premiere files in ANY other application. How many people do you think comprise that crowd using Adobe products? Perhaps if you used those tools on a professional level EVERY day you might think differently about having to rent the software forever. Apparently MANY professionals do.


Completely agree with hrgiger, there are some people here who think shouting is the same as debating. Whatever happened to listening/reading posts carefully? I got shouted down in this forum by the very same individual for agreeing with his point of view ;)

If people like me were shouting I'd be using all caps. And really... who in their right mind thinks it is a GOOD idea to be required to pay rent forever JUST to be able to open their files. And as I indicated above, we're not talking just PSD (or EPS) files here. And not caring because it doesn't affect you is being short-sighted. Am I shouting at you? I don't think so. But then... everything is in perception.


it's fine being fine with it, though i ask myself if these users are hobbyists, or if they just haven't understood what it really means. (sorry for being harsh)
That's what I think. If you have a deep workflow that uses many of these apps, being held hostage by a company is NOT a good thing no matter how you slice it. While I see MANY people saying exactly the same things I've been saying in this thread, I see ZERO people defending (with the exception of some here) that NOT being able to open files without paying rent is okay. hrgiger is fine because it really does not affect him. The fact is it DOES affect MANY others and I seriously think that they don't comprehend what that will ultimately mean - especially when you've got hundreds or thousands of .indd, .aep, .ppj files. IN fact there are still those who do not even know that once you stop renting, the software stops functioning. I was "talking" with a guy on a camera forum and he insisted that you would still have the last version of PS working on your computer AFTER stopping subscription - he said Adobe told him that. How can people even make informed decisions when they can't even comprehend the actual situation?

- - - Updated - - -


I'm well aware of what it means erikals. But are you going to do what you have to do, or are you going to sit down in a tarp and douse yourself with gasoline and say Adobe better change this or I"m going to light myself on fire? That's basically what this all sounds like.

If that's REALLY what it sounds like to you, then your perception is completely skewed.

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 03:47 PM
Meg, it's not just PS, I use Premiere and I use Dreamweaver and Flash and am currently learning After Effects. The reason it does't affect me is not because I only use PS and can save all my files in an image format, its because I don't see dropping the subscription anytime soon. If I did, I will prepare for that.

I don't care about renting my software. I rent an apartment and don't get all bent out of shape because I will never own this place. And If I stop paying rent, I will no longer be able to access the apartment. None of this bothers me.

Not all professionals have a negative opinion of CC and find value in the new service. Maybe you should just stop speaking for others and generalizing that this is bad for everyone. You say I belittle, but you are the only one who is doing that by saying anyone who is OK with CC just doesn't comprehend the issues. Assuming everyone of those people are ignorant, well, that's what it means to belittle someone because you're disregarding their input as not important or relevant to the way you think things should go.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 03:58 PM
I don't care about renting my software. I rent an apartment and don't get all bent out of shape because I will never own this place. And If I stop paying rent, I will no longer be able to access the apartment. None of this bothers me.

In that case I'll just say this...

Your analogy is wrong. What would be better is this. You rent your apartment and buy furniture, computers, stereo equipment, appliances... and then when you stop paying the rent you won't be able to get at those things that you bought because you can't get into your apartment since you stopped paying rent.

Yes, you can prepare for that time... but unless you only make a couple of files each month in those other apps, "preparing" to make those files easily accessible in other apps would be a monumental feat. For ME... just the hundred or so files I have in AfterFX would be a HUGE PIA to prepare them to open/access them in another app.

Your POV is that you will work around the problem. But my POV is to try to eliminate the problem in the first place. You would think that my POV is the far better option - not HAVING the problem in the first place. But as I've said before, if you're okay with it, I'm fine too. Though I will continue to post and "fight" Adobe because IMO it's the better option.

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 04:06 PM
You would think that my POV is the far better option - not HAVING the problem in the first place. But as I've said before, if you're okay with it, I'm fine too. Though I will continue to post and "fight" Adobe because IMO it's the better option.

But jeez Megalodon, that's what I'm saying. The problem exists, it is here now and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Maybe the complaining will have some effect but from everything I've read, that's not very likely. So for now, join CC or don't join CC. Choice is yours. I would rather they offer people a choice but that's not the way it is. This route works for me and I don't need to be told that I'm just not comprehending the problem if I'm ok with it. We all got it.

erikals
07-15-2013, 04:20 PM
I don't care about renting my software. I rent an apartment and don't get all bent out of shape because I will never own this place. And If I stop paying rent, I will no longer be able to access the apartment. None of this bothers me.

...what if in order to use the table you made some time back, you would have to re-rent?
...or "convert" it before you moved out.

"but Sir, all i want to do is to paint the table"
"sorry kid, no can do, you made that table using my apartment, in order for me to allow that you will have to re-rent..."

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 04:24 PM
But jeez Megalodon, that's what I'm saying. The problem exists, it is here now and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Maybe the complaining will have some effect but from everything I've read, that's not very likely. So for now, join CC or don't join CC. Choice is yours. I would rather they offer people a choice but that's not the way it is. This route works for me and I don't need to be told that I'm just not comprehending the problem if I'm ok with it. We all got it.
But jeez hrgiger, that's what I'm saying.

Not EVERYONE does comprehend the problem. Did you read the post directly above about the guy who thought that when he stopped sub he would STILL be able to use PS? No, NOT everyone understands what CC means.

And as *I* have said, if you don't speak up - at Adobe - you will never be heard. Why do you think that picketing Adobe is worthless? They DID respond BECAUSE of the huge backlash. Why do you oppose speaking out against them? I don't think that you're a sheep, but your attitude certainly doesn't support that. And if you don't want me to respond, then don't respond.

erikals
07-15-2013, 04:37 PM
one thing is for sure, silence definitely won't help.

i will mainly be doing just that though, be silent, as i'll be moving on to other software...

(though i suspect to use ADOBE for some time still, when working for other companies...)

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 05:28 PM
When did I suggest anyone be silent? I just said speak on the issue, don't try and represent the entire Adobe userbase by saying that everyone is getting screwed.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 06:14 PM
When did I suggest anyone be silent? I just said speak on the issue, don't try and represent the entire Adobe userbase by saying that everyone is getting screwed.

When you remove CHOICE, everyone IS screwed - whether or not you choose to accept it. Period.

erikals
07-15-2013, 06:20 PM
agreed

hrgiger
07-15-2013, 06:44 PM
When you remove CHOICE, everyone IS screwed - whether or not you choose to accept it. Period.

Actually CC is a realtively new venture by Adobe. It was probably never meant by them to be a choice between the two. Before you could choose to buy a license or not. Now you can either choose to either buy CC or not. Its still a choice.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 06:53 PM
Actually CC is a new venture by Adobe. It was never meant by them to be a choice between the two. Before you could choose to buy a license or not. Now you can either choose to either buy CC or not. Its still a choice.

Before, you had the CHOICE of buying CC OR buying a perpetual license. THAT... is the fact.

On Scott Kirby's blog (Apr. '12), he responded to a question asked by an Adobe user - the question was "Do I have to subscribe to CC?" Scott replied "No, you can subscribe to CC or buy the boxed versions."

You are stating a false equivalence - before there WAS a choice of WHICH version to buy - CC or boxed. Now that choice has been REMOVED. The "choice" you state is not a choice at all - and you know FULL WELL it is not.

erikals
07-15-2013, 07:01 PM
you can still buy Creative Suite 6 Boxed
http://www.adobe.com/en/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesu ite6.html?start=10

there will be no Creative Suite 7 though...

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 07:14 PM
you can still buy Creative Suite 6 Boxed
http://www.adobe.com/en/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesu ite6.html?start=10

there will be no Creative Suite 7 though...

Yeah, though before the CC announcement, Adobe had said that you WOULD be able to upgrade to CS7 (the boxed version) since I was told (by Adobe) that in order to upgrade to CS7 I could not be farther back than two versions. We had until Dec. 31, '12. Then they changed course and screwed over everyone who upgraded in order to be eligible to upgrade to the perpetual license of CS7. THAT particular story has been told on many forums.

erikals
07-15-2013, 07:23 PM
outch,... oh well...

saranine
07-15-2013, 08:57 PM
In December 2012 I bought the whole Adobe CS6 master collection. Since I was about to finish my graphics diploma this was, then, a bright thing to do since I got it at academic prices rather than at a commercial price.

Had I known that CC was coming, with no option, I would have purchased differently, if at all. I had CS5 before then. Now I have legacy software. I have been screwed by Adobe. They won't get a dollar more from me.

Rayek
07-15-2013, 09:14 PM
I just discovered that Flash CC removed more features than new ones were added back in. The Adobe website claims great new features, but essential functionality like the bones tool, layered psd import, and the motion (curve) editor were removed! Also AS2.0 support is deleted.

All of which means many users are quite disappointed, and are unable to work in the new version.

Fireworks' development is now officially discontinued as well AND Dreamweaver lost all its server behaviours and other functionality to boot. (Then again, I left Dreamweaver long ago - far better (open source and free) full IDEs available with features Dreamweaver can only dream (pun intended) about ;-)

Add to this the absolutely dismal web export in Photoshop and Illustrator...

For web, I advice anyone to look someplace else.

Surrealist.
07-15-2013, 09:36 PM
By the way. Gimp opens and saves PSD files.

I have used Gimpshop for years and transferring all of my files over to PSD was seamless. So just in case anyone else like me wants to join subscription or purchase CS6. Or have a smooth transition off of the cloud to GIMP or other formats. I really enjoyed being back on Photoshop after so many years away from it and having to deal with a lesser app in Gimp for so long.

Been 20 years since I used Corel. Back in the time I used it I was mainly using the publisher. Great app then. I think that is also a nice alternative, though I have not used it lately so I could not comment on direct comparison. Also I use Vegas since Version 1 and have always hated Premiere which I used 13 years ago to Edit a feature film. What a piece of crap. But it has had lots of improvements over the years and actually Vegas development has waned as of late so I am considering giving Premiere a go again. There are recent developments in most editing apps these days that allow you do transfer EDLs in standard formats. But I still think that Vegas has the best sound going. Just not sure where these guys are going with development. Kinda odd seeing as how years ago they were so ahead of the curve.

I'd love to get back to some of the old Amiga files I had years ago. Had I only made the plans to transfer stuff to more generic formats I would have not of screwed myself out of a bunch of old work. And then the hardware formats of the back ups I had changed and I let it slide. Not enough room on HD space back then to keep it all on discs. Oh well. At lease these days there are plenty of back up solutions we did not have back then.

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 09:52 PM
By the way. Gimp opens and saves PSD files.

I have used Gimpshop for years and transferring all of my files over to PSD was seamless. So just in case anyone else like me wants to join subscription or purchase CS6. Or have a smooth transition off of the cloud to GIMP or other formats. I really enjoyed being back on Photoshop after so many years away from it and having to deal with a lesser app in Gimp for so long.
As has already been stated on several photography forums, not all PS filters translate over into other programs - OR even CS6. MANY programs can open PSD files, none of them with the full functionality of Photoshop - and that disparity will continue to grow as PS CC evolves. So in a few years you won't be able to open them if you used new features in PS.

Surrealist.
07-15-2013, 10:02 PM
Of course that's true. The more advanced features you use in any program the less it transfer over. I don't think there is even a single 3D exchange format that keeps everything. You can not edit Alembic. And I would hope over time things would be incompatible. If not then it would mean no progress. You have to stay on your feet or you loose regardless of the software you use.

EDIT: Also to add that I don't think that anyone can argue it is not more complex and problematic for some people than others. So I don't mean to come off as flippant about it.

Rayek
07-15-2013, 10:17 PM
Interestingly (or impressively) enough Photoline's psd import does maintain layer effects, groups, and a range of adjustment layers.

erikals
07-15-2013, 10:56 PM
didn't know, good stuff... :hey:

Megalodon2.0
07-15-2013, 11:48 PM
Of course that's true. The more advanced features you use in any program the less it transfer over. I don't think there is even a single 3D exchange format that keeps everything. You can not edit Alembic. And I would hope over time things would be incompatible. If not then it would mean no progress. You have to stay on your feet or you loose regardless of the software you use.

EDIT: Also to add that I don't think that anyone can argue it is not more complex and problematic for some people than others. So I don't mean to come off as flippant about it.

I agree. But no matter how you slice it, it would not be a SMOOTH transition off the cloud to any other program. To say it would be smooth would be misleading. As Rayek said, Photoline can also import PSD's - as MANY programs can - but it will unfortunately never be a smooth transition.

Surrealist.
07-16-2013, 12:10 AM
Again of course not. Why would one expect anything else? That is nonsense and is not at all an argument. I said for me it was seamless. But I would have never expected advanced filters to transfer. Many of those are destructive anyway. And if you are thinking like that, it is in deed misguided.

Silkrooster
07-16-2013, 12:26 AM
I find it funny, how anybody can complain on a forum that Adobe does not read. How does shouting from the rooftops help get what you want? It doesn't. The only thing that affects large companies is your wallet. No matter how loud you yell, no one can hear you.
Adobe is counting on people like me that need to use their software, so I am one of those what will be supporting Adobe for the time being. But I tell you what, when and if that time ever comes, odds are greater that I will be stopping payment with little or no word on the forums of that event. It is pointless. Especially on a forum that Adobe does not read.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 12:50 AM
I find it funny, how anybody can complain on a forum that Adobe does not read. How does shouting from the rooftops help get what you want? It doesn't. The only thing that affects large companies is your wallet. No matter how loud you yell, no one can hear you.
And yet... how many people USING the software are on this forum?

There are a few in these various Adobe threads that have gone over and signed the petition.

Or are you just saying that spreading the word is a waste of time and nothing will ever come from it? If so, we've already been over that - silence does not change ANYTHING. Other people come across threads like this and see why some of us are against this move by Adobe. And this is not the ONLY forum that has people like me against Adobe. Even the direct Adobe forums have quite a few people who are VERY disgruntled and are speaking out.

Far better posting in a forum than being outright violent. ;)

Silkrooster
07-16-2013, 02:09 AM
Yes you are right, it is better to voice your opinion than to resort to violence. I still say, arguing the point rarely persuades anybody, it can and does irritate anybody in the opposite camp. If anybody feels the same way as you do, it doesn't matter what you say, they already feel that way.
The only time spreading the word works, it when others do not know whats going on. But once that point is covered, not much else can be said.

I guess, I feel that arguing with words, is a close cousin to violence. But, that's my opinion and I am sure there are plenty that don't agree with it.
Anyway, I said my piece, good luck with your crusade.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 02:25 AM
Anyway, I said my piece, good luck with your crusade.

Love the passive-aggressive. You were even-handed up to that point.

Surrealist.
07-16-2013, 03:19 AM
And yet... how many people USING the software are on this forum?

There are a few in these various Adobe threads that have gone over and signed the petition.

Which in my opinion is not appropriate behavior on this software specific forum hosted by and paid for by another commercial software entity. To say it is distasteful is being nice. There is a common phrase uttered in these situations in life. And that is, you offend my friends, you offend me. NewTek likely considers Adobe employees as friends and peers because that is the nature of the business. That does not mean that they condone everything or agree with everything. But Software engineers are by and large within the same group. NewTek has had its share of dealing with the public for better or for worse. And I would wager that in this case they would feel like many of us. That a choice on subscription would be a good idea. But resorting to boycotts and other forms of harm would not be at all condoned, especially in their case against their own friends and peers, and conducted so relentlessly on their own forum.


Why you think you can come here and troll with complete lack of consideration for other people and especially NewTek employees who put this forum here for your benefit is beyond me.

It is one thing to voice an opinion, but trolling the way you are is not at all conducive a fair and balanced interchange of ideas. I think if it keeps going like this the thread will be locked.

erikals
07-16-2013, 03:42 AM
hey, if you don't like reading it you can always unsubscribe...

...no, wait, you can't,... it's broken... muah-ha-ha-ha :devil:115630

Surrealist.
07-16-2013, 03:55 AM
Lol

That is a bit like saying Foff isn't it? I have a right to an opinion about things I find that are just purely distasteful. It does have an effect on people and there are forum rules for a reason. To keep the kids playing well. Trolling is in itself not really good manners on the forums and really enough is enough. After all if we don't speak up nothing will get done right? Isn't that the motto? Oh I forgot. Speak up unless it means that someone disagrees with you to which the answers is basically piss off and go away.

I have no quams about the sentiment for the subscription by people who feel that way. But there is a limit to tolerance to trolling and the way things are being conducted here which I find distasteful and I would like to have a forum here, not free of ideas that do not agree with mine, but free of intolerance to other views. There is a vast difference.

And this is one of the things that forums rules are put into place to prevent, and if you've been around at all, grounds for banning, which has happened.

erikals
07-16-2013, 04:10 AM
Lol

That is a bit like saying Foff isn't it?

...in a nice way 115635

shrox
07-16-2013, 09:47 AM
I had to look up "Foff".

Rayek
07-16-2013, 10:01 AM
I had to look up "Foff".

So did I. Man, feeling old now ;-)

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 02:33 PM
Which in my opinion is not appropriate behavior on this software specific forum hosted by and paid for by another commercial software entity. To say it is distasteful is being nice. There is a common phrase uttered in these situations in life. And that is, you offend my friends, you offend me. NewTek likely considers Adobe employees as friends and peers because that is the nature of the business. That does not mean that they condone everything or agree with everything. But Software engineers are by and large within the same group. NewTek has had its share of dealing with the public for better or for worse. And I would wager that in this case they would feel like many of us. That a choice on subscription would be a good idea. But resorting to boycotts and other forms of harm would not be at all condoned, especially in their case against their own friends and peers, and conducted so relentlessly on their own forum.


Why you think you can come here and troll with complete lack of consideration for other people and especially NewTek employees who put this forum here for your benefit is beyond me.

It is one thing to voice an opinion, but trolling the way you are is not at all conducive a fair and balanced interchange of ideas. I think if it keeps going like this the thread will be locked.

First of all, there have been so NASTY attacks - by anyone. Second of all, how dare YOU to presume to speak for Newtek. I would bet that there are plenty of Newtek employees who do not like this subscription only plan. Just because both companies produce software does not mean that they are "friends." You presume FAR too much. There is plenty of other software "out there" that can be used with Lightwave and IS being used with LW. I would also bet that when a package like Hitfilm matures it will be probably that Newtek will put a hook into it just like AE. The more competition, the better.

And you know something... this has NOTHING to do with the software. The developers are simply caught in the middle. This has to do with ADOBE MANAGEMENT since they are the ones that decided to screw so many people over. If you can't see that, then you'd better have your eyes checked. Adobe management made the decision to remove CHOICE from their menu; people like me are fighting back against this decision. Essentially if you don't like it, tough.

Why you think you can presume to tell ME what I should or should not say is almost beyond words. Because YOU don't like what I'm saying (or how I'm saying it) gives you the right to essentially tell me to - in your own words - Foff. Ain't gonna happen. There have been myriad threads here that are FAR more abrasive than this one and people FAR more terse than myself.

I hope some day that something that YOU don't like makes you want to actually stand up and use your backbone - and someone like you comes in and tells you to essentially Foff. You can call it trolling all you want, but I call it ardently expressing an opinion - and when others post and state their reasons I will counter them if necessary. If you don't like it, then simply do not read my posts. It really is that simple - you see the shark picture, you ignore the post.

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 02:42 PM
Second of all, how dare YOU to presume to speak for Newtek. I would bet that there are plenty of Newtek employees who do not like this subscription only plan.

Lol, how dare Surrealist presume to speak for NT, and then immediately after your presume what plenty of Newtek employees think of Adobe's subscription plan?

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 02:45 PM
Lol, how dare Surrealist presume to speak for NT, and then immediately after your presume what plenty of Newtek employees think of Adobe's subscription plan?

I said "I would bet" - NOT that I knew. Big difference.

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 02:50 PM
You might want to look that one up. Betting is a form of presumption. Presumption-supposing that something is the case on the basis of probability.

erikals
07-16-2013, 02:50 PM
i think we are derailing a bit... let's get more back on track...

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 02:54 PM
On track with what? A few here think that Adobe's subscription plan is the work of Satan. Others are fine with it. There's nothing else that needs said. There's no solution to be had here.

glebe digital
07-16-2013, 02:56 PM
115652

Can't we all just . . . .

115653

erikals
07-16-2013, 02:59 PM
btw, why not stop discussing if you guys don't agree?
i see you keep coming back, which is kinda ironic.

in this thread, i haven't seen any personal attacks, (unless i missed something) so shouldn't be a problem.
(not trying to point fingers though...)

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 03:05 PM
You might want to look that one up. Betting is a form of presumption. Presumption-supposing that something is the case on the basis of probability.

Whatever you want... now you're just parsing for the sake of argument. We both know I can go all the way with that. ;)

You're the one who said that Adobe still gave us a choice - albeit a false one. "Now... instead of being able to choose between a perpetual license and subscription, you have the choice of buying or not buying. See, Adobe STILL gives you choice." ROTFLMFAO

You really are a piece of work. But keep it coming though. :thumbsup:

- - - Updated - - -



btw, why not stop discussing if you guys don't agree?
i see you keep coming back, which is kinda ironic.

in this thread, i haven't seen any personal attacks, (unless i missed something) so shouldn't be a problem.
(not trying to point fingers though...)

Well yeah...

I guess if no one responded then I wouldn't have anything more to say - beyond the post here and there showing more professionals against "the cloud."

That would be dull though. ;)

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 03:12 PM
btw, why not stop discussing if you guys don't agree?
i see you keep coming back, which is kinda ironic.



Nothing ironic about it. I have no problem with yours or Megalodon's point of view on the subscription plan. What I take issue with is being spoken for and being accused of rolling over and taking it from Adobe or not understanding the full implications of this move to be at the point that I'm ok with it. Its insulting really that apparently those who are ok with it, aren't smart enough to be able to make up their own minds about what they do or don't have a problem with.

And Megalodon, you seem to be under the impression that you are getting the short end of the stick from all software companies. I suppose eventually Adobe might offer a choice. And you might still be able to buy a permanent license. But maybe they will lower the cost of CC to make it more attractive for people to go that direction. At which point you'll be saying that Adobe is screwing traditional license users by charging them more. Sort of like Newtek is screwing you when you chose to sell your LW 10 license and now you don't have discount pricing for the next 4 upgrades of LW.

erikals
07-16-2013, 03:13 PM
i think we need to make a list that shows and explains the pitfalls of Creative Cloud...

anyone feels to start?
Mega?...

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 03:16 PM
i think we need to make a list that shows and explains the pitfalls of Creative Cloud...

anyone feels to start?
Mega?...

And thanks for proving my point of my previous post. Now we're going to make a list of things about the pitfalls of Creative Cloud and explain it to those who 'just aren't getting it' ... i.e. people who favor this approach. Trust me, its obvious what some consider the pitfalls and disadvantages of Creative Cloud. Or is it just personal satisfaction to sum up the last 11 pages of dead horse beating?

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 03:26 PM
And thanks for proving my point of my previous post. Now we're going to make a list of things about the pitfalls of Creative Cloud and explain it to those who 'just aren't getting it' ... i.e. people who favor this approach. Trust me, its obvious what some consider the pitfalls and disadvantages of Creative Cloud. Or is it just personal satisfaction to sum up the last 11 pages of dead horse beating?

What do you mean?

You can still add to the PRO's of CC like there still IS a choice - to buy or not to buy. :)

Oh wait a minute... that's still removing ONE choice, so it's STILL not good for the customer. Darn.

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 03:36 PM
Its humorous Dave that you didn't get the original post of mine about choice. CC was most likely never meant to be offered as an option or alternative to permanent licensing. Just because there was a choice for a little while until they made the transition to CC only does not mean or guarantee that they were going to offer them side by side permanently. It wouldn't surprise me to know that going subscription only with CC was their plan from the start with CC. Which is what I meant by choice to buy or not buy. That was the only choice before CC came along with permanent license. Now its the only choices now that CC is here. I'm sorry you didn't get that originally. I can explain it again if needed. I'm here for you guy.

erikals
07-16-2013, 03:46 PM
i think we can agree on though that getting CS or CC is not much of a choice,
as CS is no longer updated, and it's just a matter of time before they remove the option,
once CC"7" launches...

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 04:14 PM
Its humorous Dave that you didn't get the original post of mine about choice. CC was most likely never meant to be offered as an option or alternative to permanent licensing. Just because there was a choice for a little while until they made the transition to CC only does not mean or guarantee that they were going to offer them side by side permanently. It wouldn't surprise me to know that going subscription only with CC was their plan from the start with CC. Which is what I meant by choice to buy or not buy. That was the only choice before CC came along with permanent license. Now its the only choices now that CC is here. I'm sorry you didn't get that originally. I can explain it again if needed. I'm here for you guy.

Really though, that's not the point. THE point (and FACT) is... MANY professionals do not like being "forced" to subscribe. (And please don't go into the diatribe again about buying or not buying) There are at least 36K + who are against the subscription-only scheme. MANY of the current subscribers have the special deals in place - and as I already indicated previously many do not truly understand that once subscription has ended they do not have the software. That is a fact. I am hoping that when these people discover how Adobe has not been completely upfront with them, they will discontinue their subscriptions. I have no idea if that will happen, but I certainly am hoping.

Yeah Steve, please explain it again... I could really use the time to make another post. :D



i think we can agree on though that getting CS or CC is not much of a choice,
as CS is no longer updated, and it's just a matter of time before they remove the option,
once CC"7" launches...
Definitely. Even though they've said they will continue to sell CS6 for the foreseeable future, I would bet that they will stop selling sooner rather than later. In fact if sales of CC begin to slump I wouldn't be surprises to see them pull CS6 very quickly.

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 04:21 PM
so 36k against the half a million that are already subscribed...and you're suggesting that almost half a million people have no idea that the software goes away once they stop paying?

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 04:29 PM
so 36k against the half a million that are already subscribed...and you're suggesting that almost half a million people have no idea that the software goes away once they stop paying?

WHY... are you so reading comprehension-challenged?

MANY of them do not. Not to mention that - AS I SAID - these are with the special deals (ie lower prices) in place. Some have already said that when the price goes up they will unsubscribe. And there are also many who think that $30 a month is a great deal but $50 a month is too high. And that's about the "regular price" that Adobe has stated. We ALL KNOW that this price will begin to increase. Once Adobe has what it feels is critical mass - ie enough subscribers addicted - they WILL begin to increase the price.

Try to READ what I wrote instead of coming up with a rebuttal after the first few words.

hrgiger
07-16-2013, 04:42 PM
So you've read a few examples of people who didn't know that the software is tied to paying once a month and you've decided that most of the half a million people aren't aware either. Oh dear. I really can't continue this discussion because its not based in reality.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 04:45 PM
So you've read a few examples of people who didn't know that the software is tied to paying once a month and you've decided that most of the half a million people aren't aware either. Oh dear. I really can't continue this discussion because its not based in reality.

Well... in your reality removing choice is okay.

I'll take my reality.

In all seriousness though, peace. :beerchug:

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 04:49 PM
Here's some info from around the world concerning CC:

115655

hazmat777
07-16-2013, 04:58 PM
Here's a pretty concise take on this from a VERY well respected photographer...

http://www.dslrbodies.com/accessories/software-for-nikon-dslrs/software-news/the-fine-print-in-adobes.html

I'm going to stick with CS5 Production Premium for as long as I can still run it.

erikals
07-16-2013, 05:27 PM
saw some here wanted to check out PhotoLine, so... >


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BfuwYmBfbU

jasonwestmas
07-16-2013, 05:51 PM
Thanks Erikals, I'll bee checking that one out. I like the layered filtering. Would you consider the overall theme of PL to be non-destructive workflows?

erikals
07-16-2013, 06:02 PM
Would you consider the overall theme of PL to be non-destructive workflows?

not far off i'd say... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
gonna buy it real soon, it's getting there :hey:

aw, fakk it, i'll buy it now http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

(done!) :]

erikals
07-16-2013, 06:39 PM
a list so far... >

-some claim Adobe CC will stop piracy of the software
-doesn't look like it. it has already been cracked

-Adobe claims CC will create more features
-smells like BS marketing.
-take PhotoLine. developed by 1½ guy, and have several better features than PhotoShop.
(how long did it take for PS to add adjustable brush size with mouse/pen? < rhetorical.)

-you can still buy Creative Suite
-sorta, CS6 is the last version, after that it's CC all the way

-CC is cheap
-it depends on what apps you need, beware, next year the price will double
-also skipping upgrades is now impossible.

-CC is secure
-not likely, Sony was hacked 2 years ago. same could happen to Adobe

-CC risks loosing all my files as they are stored in the cloud.
-could be, but you can choose to store files on your PC like before.

-renting software is evil
-not really. but a problem can be that Adobe gets more power over the market,
but also more power/ access to your computer.

-Adobe is the only way to go.
-competition is slowly building up. see PhotoLine / HitFilm.

-Adobe is an industry standard, you need it.
-a very valid point, and that might be true.
nothing wrong in supporting other apps though, give Adobe less marketshare.

-with Adobe CC i will always have to stay connected to the internet.
-no.

-signing up and renewing Adobe CC is slow.
-no, it's quite fast.

-canceling Adobe CC is easy.
-no, Adobe has problems canceling subscriptions occasionally.
-it's uncertain when this will be fixed.

-with Adobe CC i always have access to my files.
-no, not unless you subscribe.
-scenario, a client comes in and wants to have a look at a specific Premiere project,
but you can't show it to him as you didn't subscribe the 3 last months. awkward.
-scenario, a student unable to hand in his work, because he had forgotten about the expiry date on his credit card. Adobe instantly blocked his account.

-with Adobe CC i can edit my files at any time.
-no, not unless you subscribe.

-CC monthly subscription can save you big cash if you use the app seldom.
-yes. just remember that you need to subscribe again if you want to
access or edit the files.

-with CC, your files belongs to Adobe.
-unless you subscribe, yes, not too far away from the truth.
-Adobe can also cancel your subscription at any time if they wish to do so.
-http://vimeo.com/66594939
http://www.dslrbodies.com/accessories/software-for-nikon-dslrs/software-news/the-fine-print-in-adobes.html

-Creative Cloud subscriptions hit 700000, that's great.
-is it? http://tinyurl.com/nwo7e75
-it also remains to be seen if they stick around once the price doubles
-also if the CC itself gets hacked, that would have a huge impact (see the Sony case)

-I use Photoshop for my own personal photography and for textures for use in LightWave. So all of my files eventually come out in a format that can be opened in every other image application in existence. So not having access to my files anymore after a subscription.... NOT AN ISSUE.
-that's fine. for a selected few the CC model will have less negative impact.

-a company having major control is fine.
-a scenario that happens when someone gets too much control >
little by little they will crave even control, as no-one steps on the breaks.

-Boycotting Adobe CC will have a big enough impact for Adobe to see, turn back, and keep developing CS.
-unlikely, as .7 mill already subscribe. the pitfalls of CC itself will have to make the impact.
-it's hard to say when CC runs into a wall, what impact it will be.

-Boycotting is bad.
-not really, as long as it doesn't hurt the company or development severally.
(once again, i refer to Sony, who years back installed spyware in their software, something that led to a minor boycott)

-Adobe CC creates free control
-what do you think is so great about the CC, that a CS version couldn't be made to do?...

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 06:47 PM
a list so far... >

Excellent list!

I'm going to have to check out Photoline. I was planning on getting (eventually) Xara Designer Pro which is pretty much a PS and AI replacement. I've got the Xara WebDesigner Pro and really like it. Still, the interface of Photoline looks very clean. Thanks for sharing that.

erikals
07-16-2013, 06:59 PM
i checked a lot of them, (all major ones) and PhotoLine is the best PhotoShop alternative.
if you want a PhotoShop alternative, go with PhotoLine.

greetings from Erik, former photo application tester http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

erikals
07-16-2013, 07:45 PM
back to CC, i personally just have one major issue with it... > security. (in several forms)
but also, having to have to subscribe in order to show / edit / convert a file.

so i'll be moving away, over to PhotoLine and HitFilm, might rent AfterEffects on a monthly basis.

i'd welcome AutoDesk to take the CC route though, as i could then temporarily rent the few features i would need.
but the enhancements are getting smaller and smaller in the AD camp, likely due to the AutoDesk monopoly :/

    A
    D
AUTODESK
    B
    E

i miss the days when i would go "Wow" about a Adobe / AutoDesk product... :/

Maya2014 vs Maya2011... nothing to brag about at all, if i could, i'd buy Maya2011 instead, save some $
but we all know that is not possible, due the AD policy... just 4 fun... > http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-maya/compare

Sekhar
07-16-2013, 08:08 PM
IMO the best thing about CC is that it lets you access stuff you wouldn't otherwise (I discovered SpeedGrade that way and love it). Even otherwise, if you're the kind that upgrades regularly (e.g., every other release), I'd say go for it. For students it's under 30 bucks. In any case, PLEASE be dispassionate about this, and don't let your antipathy toward Adobe and/or big corps drive your decision.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 08:27 PM
back to CC, i personally just have one major issue with it... > security. (in several forms)
but also, having to have to subscribe in order to show / edit / convert a file.

so i'll be moving away, over to PhotoLine and HitFilm, might rent AfterEffects on a monthly basis.

i'd welcome AutoDesk to take the CC route though, as i could then temporarily rent the few features i would need.
but the enhancements are getting smaller and smaller in the AD camp, likely due to the AutoDesk monopoly :/

I won't have ANY of my work machines connected to the internet - even for once every month or three, so that's a big no.

Being unable to open and edit files after stopping subscription is (for me) the BIGGEST drawback.

I don't mind if they go CC AND perpetual license - even what hrgiger suggested by paying MORE for the perpetual license would be fine with me.

It's the fact that it is being forced and that the choice of buying either/or has been removed. Seems like Next Limit can do it right - buy a perpetual license or rent it. Renting is okay as long as it is not imposed. I wonder if AD would make more money by offering subscription like Adobe ALONG WITH buying a standard license?

erikals
07-16-2013, 08:39 PM
I wonder if AD would make more money by offering subscription like Adobe ALONG WITH buying a standard license?

certainly, think about all the people that would subscribe just in order to convert that .max file... :hey:

shrox
07-16-2013, 08:44 PM
-Adobe can also cancel your subscription at any time if they wish to do so.


This is bad. I can imagine a federal "no subscribe list" in a few years much like the no fly list. Even if you are on it by mistake, too bad. No soup for you!

Why? If the subscription model become the standard for all, then the way to stop terrorists from making pretty flyers and nifty videos is to prevent them for having access to the tools they would need to produce them. Because terrorists would never resort to using pirated software.

jasonwestmas
07-16-2013, 08:51 PM
I am not paying 100 bucks a month for PS that's more than what I pay for a maya sub. . . .photo line here I come. For me I don't use the other applications enough to justify the future cost.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 09:14 PM
I am not paying 100 bucks a month for PS that's more than what I pay for a maya sub. . . .photo line here I come. For me I don't use the other applications enough to justify the future cost.

I thought PS was - month to month - only $29.99 per month. For a year subscription I thought it was around $20 per month. I'm not sure because I haven't seriously looked at the pricing since I won't be subscribing.

Megalodon2.0
07-16-2013, 09:18 PM
certainly, think about all the people that would subscribe just in order to convert that .max file... :hey:

I hadn't though about that. Good point actually. There have actually been quite a few times I could have used a copy of Max but had ZERO intention of ever buying it at that price. Having a subscription that you could purchase by the month... I would probably have gone that route.

Surrealist.
07-17-2013, 01:57 AM
I hope some day that something that YOU don't like makes you want to actually stand up and use your backbone - and someone like you comes in and tells you to essentially Foff. You can call it trolling all you want, but I call it ardently expressing an opinion - and when others post and state their reasons I will counter them if necessary. If you don't like it, then simply do not read my posts. It really is that simple - you see the shark picture, you ignore the post.

Right on the money. Already happening. Fairly ironic yes? This is something I am extremely and adamantly against. Which is why I am calling you out on it. It happens that I have the balls and the spine to do it directly and to the point.

I am not interested in a personal pissing match with you and I have no intention of backing down. Nor am I interested in a tennis match with your varied and continued justifications.

I have not forgotten in all of this that you are talking about condoning destructive behavior in the name of good.

And yes. I do have the right to say that that is not OK. I am not attacking your opinions or you personally. I am addressing a particular line of thinking that leads to and promotes others into a destructive line of action. The key word here is action.

And in doing this basically by your own admission you are smacking down opposition to further your cause.

I do have the right to offer an opposing that view that a boycott of Adobe is not a survival action and is mostly destructive. The numbers of people that are agreeing with this is not a justification in my opinion, nor does it make it right. And I have every right to speak up about it, here on this forum if I choose.

And by the way I am not afraid of sharks.

erikals
07-17-2013, 02:46 AM
I do have the right to offer an opposing that view that a boycott of Adobe is not a survival action and is mostly destructive.

of course, but can you emphasize that a bit? how is it destructive?
i mean, for a multi-billion company like Adobe, how can a boycott, small as it will be, have a big negative impact?

are you against boycotts in general, or just in this specific case?

personally i'm not against it, they put a spoke in my wheel, i put a spoke in their wheel...
but i'll refrain from doing it, as the impact of us doing it is not big enough for them to turn around.

Megalodon2.0
07-17-2013, 03:02 AM
I have not forgotten in all of this that you are talking about condoning destructive behavior in the name of good.

You call it destructive. I call it productive. By boycotting Adobe, their sales (over a billion dollars in profit) would only slightly decrease and they would have to address the decrease (in a perfect boycott) by hopefully compromising. You seem to think that boycotts are ONLY destructive - or is it just this one? Generally everything in life is destructive to one degree or another. Big business (like Walmart) "destroys" their employees by paying them crap wages - yet people complain about Walmart boycotts. Regardless, boycotts often work and while some may regard them as only destructive, I don't.


And yes. I do have the right to say that that is not OK. I am not attacking your opinions or you personally. I am addressing a particular line of thinking that leads to and promotes others into a destructive line of action. The key word here is action.

Again, you call it destructive. I don't. But then you have the right to call it anything you want.


And in doing this basically by your own admission you are smacking down opposition to further your cause.

I've been stating facts. The removal of choice is BAD for the consumer. You can choose to agree or disagree, but one is right and the other is wrong. IMO if you disagree then you are wrong. Plain and simple. I have not heard ANY one on any forum or blog - or even FB - say that this removal of choice is good. The fact is that MANY - as witnessed on those blogs and forums (and even in the Adobe forums) do not like this forced subscription. And THEY call it forced subscription. They don't like the removal of choice. THEY are the ones promoting the signing of the petition and THEY are the ones advocating holding off buying Adobe products. And... I agree with them.


I do have the right to offer an opposing that view that a boycott of Adobe is not a survival action and is mostly destructive. The numbers of people that are agreeing with this is not a justification in my opinion, nor does it make it right. And I have every right to speak up about it, here on this forum if I choose.

Of course you do. And you can say anything you want. I frankly don't care. If you want to support Adobe 100%, good for you. And yes, you DO have the right to speak - as do I. YOU are the one who said I should not have come in here and stated MY opinions since this is a Newtek forum. *I* never said you should not be in here with a rebuttal.


And by the way I am not afraid of sharks.
Easy to say out of the water. A megalodon (quite a bit bigger than a standard shark) approaches you in the water I sincerely doubt you'd be a happy camper. ;)

saranine
07-17-2013, 03:03 AM
Maybe this thread has gone on long enough. I do not like the way that people are arguing with each other to some degree rather than merely expressing views.

Adobe is like the Roman Empire. Too big. Too arrogant. Taking its dominance for granted.

Megalodon2.0
07-17-2013, 03:05 AM
Adobe is like the Roman Empire. Too big. Too arrogant. Taking its dominance for granted.

I do hope you're wrong about that. I'd just like to see the board members fired who came up with subscription only and they CHOOSE to offer both - THAT would be the best for EVERYONE.

saranine
07-17-2013, 03:12 AM
I agree entirely. I do not want to see Adobe fold as a company. Their board members are awful. That Sharantanyu or whatever his name is came here to Australia a year or so ago. A person asked him a question about their price gouging here. He replied politician style 4 times with "the creative cloud is fantastic. " He didn't attempt to answer a valid query. The video of that is on youtube somewhere. If you banged in adobe Australia price gouging you would probably find it.

Their "contract style" set up for a CC subscription is breathtakingly bad. That YOU have to pay out to stop subscribing. What? Has Adobe turned into a bank? I had a relative who had to "pay out" to leave the British army. Maybe Adobe thinks that it is some sort of military outfit.

In fact that youtube video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM46ny1WhM

erikals
07-17-2013, 03:25 AM
how can you not love it...? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM46ny1WhM

:jester:

saranine
07-17-2013, 03:29 AM
That's it! Isn't that shocking! Makes me sick to the stomach. That's why Adobe and Microsoft were summoned to an Australian parliamentary enquiry into price gouging. I am not sure if that changed anything. FRom what I gather Microsoft even refused to show up. Adobe gave the usual blather about "people voting with their wallets".

I sent an email of thanks to the politician, Ed Husic, who initiated the enquiry into price gouging by Adobe abd others. Husic emailed me back thanking me for the support.

erikals
07-17-2013, 03:35 AM
Husic emailed me back thanking me for the support.

...like a true politician. http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

saranine
07-17-2013, 03:40 AM
Yes. I am as cynical as anybody towards politicians. But the enquiry was a start. It is a valid point to look at it cynically - Australia signs the Free Trade Agreement with the USA and then wonders why its people get screwed by Adobe. But it was a first step.

Surrealist.
07-17-2013, 04:25 AM
@ Megalondon 2.0. Well like I said I am not going to play tennis here. But yes. I did state that I feel it is in bad taste and inappropriate to come here - in the way that you are with such determination - on this forum. On this issue. I still think that. I also don't like the tone of most of your posts which is condescending on others who do not agree with you, which I have already stated. You are not at all tolerant of other views and continually state that people who do not agree with your view of the "facts" are wrong. And yes it is considered trolling by just about any definition. This is not an interchange of ideas. It is you being right about it along with your continued justification. And everyone else is wrong.

And yeah, because of that opinion I feel if it should not be happening.

It is not a free for all. It should be a fair a balanced interchange of ideas ideally not a one way argument.

But it is certainly not something I can control. I can complain about it. And I will continue as I see fit.

And yes I think in this particular case a boycott is wrong. I won't comment on any other boycotts because that is not the issue. Not important. Just I think this is wrong. And I don't have to justify it further.

But I have never once said to you to Foff. Not once. Nor have I ever said if you don't like it don't read my posts. That was other people and you basically saying that to me for coming here and speaking up against this. Which again comes with the territory, unfortunately.

You don't like being opposed and told you are wrong. Unfortunately it does not work that way. It is not a one way street. I don't like it either. But I am not going to back down on my views and I know you won't either. I don't expect you to at all. But I will speak up to offer the balanced opinion.

And unfortunately because I think this is destructive, saying that you should not be coming here and doing this is inevitable. Can't have it both ways.

But it is my opinion.

Surrealist.
07-17-2013, 04:27 AM
Yes. I am as cynical as anybody towards politicians. But the enquiry was a start. It is a valid point to look at it cynically - Australia signs the Free Trade Agreement with the USA and then wonders why its people get screwed by Adobe. But it was a first step.

I know you are new around here but I will tell you this much. If you want this thread locked for sure keep going in this direction and read the rules. No Politics. Actually amazing to have gotten this far without it.

erikals
07-17-2013, 04:53 AM
And yes I think in this particular case a boycott is wrong. I won't comment on any other boycotts because that is not the issue. Not important. Just I think this is wrong. And I don't have to justify it further.

you don't have to explain it further, but it sounds more like it is difficult for you to do so, for reasons unknown.
most people discuss in order to be enlightened or enlighten others, something you are reluctant to do.

if you through out an opinion, i believe 99% of the listeners would like to know why.

A: "I like Sarah Palin"
B: "Hey, that's great. Why do you like Sarah Palin?"
A: "Well, I just like her"

glebe digital
07-17-2013, 05:10 AM
A quick search of PPH yields these freelance userbase numbers:

AutoCad 2,926 v Draftsight 2

Photoshop 16,257 v Gimp 145

Not very scientific perhaps, but with my positive hat on I'd say there's nothing like a niche waiting to be exploited?

I'm not buying into the cloud thing myself, but I can see that for many it's not a problem. Cloud access, copyright & security issues are too much of a concern for me personally.
Rather than get involved in slacktivism though it seems better to just adapt to the changed landscape.

cagey5
07-17-2013, 05:17 AM
Some of these responses should be incorporated into a logic and reasoning seminar for dissecting, it could fill a term.

erikals
07-17-2013, 05:37 AM
agreed, after all, not everyone knows that Sarah Palin fights polar bears, and that's why she's awesome.
it needs to be explained.

Surrealist.
07-17-2013, 05:52 AM
you don't have to explain it further, but it sounds more like it is difficult for you to do so, for reasons unknown.
most people discuss in order to be enlightened or enlighten others, something you are reluctant to do.

if you through out an opinion, i believe 99% of the listeners would like to know why.

I said, "further" which eludes to other posts I have already explained my position as much as needed I feel.

But you are free to come up with some ideas of your own as to why it might be a destructive plan. And I'd like to hear them as a nice counterpoint the majority of the other opinions that have been expressed so far.

erikals
07-17-2013, 06:40 AM
ok, dug a bit more into your previous posts...


I draw with line with a boycott and the tactics that go with it. Just not for me and I feel it is more destructive than good in this case. That is my opinion.
Boycotts have their place though and they are an effective route to take in some cases where a large corporation is doing actual harm.


But I see a boycott in this case as potentially harmful


I do have the right to offer an opposing that view that a boycott of Adobe is not a survival action and is mostly destructive.


I am not victim and I don't subscribe to that attitude and approach to life.

ok, i see you write that a boycott is potentially harmful,
the logic thing is to assume that you mean that a boycott is harmful to Adobes economy. only that doesn't make sense.


I can not fathom how wishing harm on a company is in a sane frame of mind.

hmm, ok so you see this as a potential destructive act against Adobe.
do you really honestly think that this is harmful for Adobe? the billion-dollar company?... ??!

Surrealist.
07-17-2013, 08:10 AM
I did not make this up.

http://adobe2014.tumblr.com/


1) it would starve them of subscriptions at a time when they really need to prove they work, because it is all they are offering.

2) but even more effectively - if it became commonly known that their customers were taking active steps against the company - the basic notion that Adobe was literally at war with their own user base would be incredibly damaging to them. That headline would be brand damage hard to walk away from.

So, with all that said, in the meantime - let’s strangle their 2013 subscription forecast.

starve (of subscriptions), damage, damaging, hard to walk away from, strangle. That is fairly clear and strong language. Perhaps I am the wrong person to ask about how this would be damaging since it was not my idea in the first place.

What I am saying is condoning, promoting something that is a clearly stated purpose and intend to damage. This is not my opinion. That is what these people have in mind. And that is how a boycott is to be effective, is to create damage. That is how it works. That's why boycotts are done. To create financial damage and hurt the reputation in order to affect a change. It would not be effective if it was not damaging. Otherwise you are pretty much wasting your time and efforts.

So to be in favor of it and then say it is not damaging is in effect an oxymoron.

And this is why it carries with it such a bombardment of justification and reasoning. To put into perspective the reason for creating the damage.

Then to have someone come along and make the argument one is not in favor of creating damage in this situation and then to be countered by the opinion that it is not "damage" when earlier it was stated that it is needed destruction in order to effect a positive outcome is in effect another dichotomy.


It can not be both ways. If you are in favor of it you feel that the damage is worth the outcome. If you are not in favor of it then you feel that the damage and destructive behavior is in effect not a good thing in this case.


But it is always going to be damage. No way around that.

Pretty simple.

erikals
07-17-2013, 08:48 AM
well, it's about starving / strangling the Cloud, not Mr. Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen himself.

after all, that's how a boycott works,


-to combine in abstaining from, or preventing dealings with, as a means of intimidation or coercion: to boycott a store.

-to abstain from buying or using: to boycott foreign products.

how this boycott is supposed to be worse than others is beyond me.

--------------
damaging yes, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.
harmful, sure, but just how harmful? will it sink the Adobe ship? hardly.

like you said earlier,

Boycotts have their place...
so, what's so harmful about this one?

VonBon
07-17-2013, 08:58 AM
Well the point of a Boycott is to be damaging to the targeted companies profits,
and then ultimately benefit the consumers in some form.

Big companies don't hear you unless you cost them a significant amount of money,
then they want to listen to what you have to say.

A Boycott will not make Adobe go under but it can make them change their course.

hrgiger
07-17-2013, 01:19 PM
or they can stay on their current course and lay off workers to compensate for said boycott.

JohnMarchant
07-17-2013, 01:49 PM
Another reason for me is Adobe pricing policy especially vis a vie the UK. Its $50 for Adobe CC in the US and yet in the UK its £50. I dont care what anyone says about taxes and the like. Exchange rates are about £1 = $1.5, so it should be around £37 in UK.

raymondtrace
07-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Boycotts and petitions? meh. Just demonstrate your concern by switching to other software (or continuing to use older Adobe apps).

When you choose to eat at McDonald's, are you really boycotting Wendy's, Jack in the Box, Burger King, etc? Or are you just being a normal consumer?

Megalodon2.0
07-17-2013, 02:18 PM
I know you are new around here but I will tell you this much. If you want this thread locked for sure keep going in this direction and read the rules. No Politics. Actually amazing to have gotten this far without it.
Bullcrap. Saranine hasn't said ANYTHING that would warrant a thread closing. So he brought politics into it. In regards to Adobe, it was pertinent.


well, it's about starving / strangling the Cloud, not Mr. Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen himself.

after all, that's how a boycott works,

Precisely on the money! This boycott is about Adobe recognizing that their customers do not like their current course of action. IMO there is ZERO wrong with this.

or they can stay on their current course and lay off workers to compensate for said boycott.
Yeah right. As if this would be a HUGE boycott that would cut Adobe earnings by 30% or more. Do you honestly think that THAT will happen. You yourself pointed out how small in number these (we) people are. The BEST we could hope for is that Adobe sees it's subscriptions seriously slow down or remain somewhat stagnant - enough for them to HAVE to address the situation. Chances are they would just drop the prices of subscription and/or offer better deals in the short-term in an attempt to acquire more users. That's pretty much what they're doing now by offering so many incentives to "join the cloud." Hopefully it won't work. But look at it this way, if we DO make a slight dent, people like YOU (who use CC) will benefit.

Boycotts and petitions? meh. Just demonstrate your concern by switching to other software (or continuing to use older Adobe apps).

When you choose to eat at McDonald's, are you really boycotting Wendy's, Jack in the Box, Burger King, etc? Or are you just being a normal consumer?
And many of us are. I plan to buy Photoline due to Erikals endorsement. Heck, it's only $80 so it's pretty much a no-brainer.

But SOME people do not want to switch over their software - such as the professional photographer mentioned previously - and many others who simply WANT to use Adobe software but seriously despise their current model. As I said before, I can rid myself of Adobe software without much pain, but others cannot. I support THEM and their move against Adobe because in addition to Adobe specifically, it is a BAD precedent and will HURT consumers more than it helps. Keeping the CHOICE of perpetual licenses AND CC is far better for the consumer. We don't need other software companies seeing Adobe succeed and then doing the same. Some people in this forum say it's okay to spend $100 or $500 a month for their software WITHOUT ever owning a license to use it perpetually. I could not disagree more.

jasonwestmas
07-17-2013, 03:37 PM
I thought PS was - month to month - only $29.99 per month. For a year subscription I thought it was around $20 per month. I'm not sure because I haven't seriously looked at the pricing since I won't be subscribing.

I think you must own a license for PS CS3 or higher to qualify for that kind of pricing. I'll have to give them a call or something. Maybe they have a deal for a current CC member if I just want to use PS only.

Megalodon2.0
07-17-2013, 04:04 PM
I think you must own a license for PS CS3 or higher to qualify for that kind of pricing. I'll have to give them a call or something. Maybe they have a deal for a current CC member if I just want to use PS only.

I just checked. It's $19.99 a month (just for PS) if you sign up for a full year. If you own CS3 or later it would be $9.99 (just for PS) for the first year - and would go up thereafter. That sounds more like what I've been hearing.

jasonwestmas
07-17-2013, 04:06 PM
I just checked. It's $19.99 a month (just for PS) if you sign up for a full year. If you own CS3 or later it would be $9.99 (just for PS) for the first year - and would go up thereafter. That sounds more like what I've been hearing.

oh ok, that sounds far more reasonable. I just haven't found the opportunity to use the other apps as much as I thought I would. This is my last month on the cloud, I don't need it. :) I'll probably invest in nuke or fusion one of these days.

Megalodon2.0
07-17-2013, 04:21 PM
oh ok, that sounds far more reasonable. I just haven't found the opportunity to use the other apps as much as I thought I would. This is my last month on the cloud, I don't need it. :) I'll probably invest in nuke or fusion one of these days.

I love Fusion - and allot cheaper than Nuke!

I still like AfterFX quite a bit though since it's still the old-fashioned layer-based system. For what I use it for it works. I'll be getting the Sony Creative Suite which has Hitfilm2 Ultimate - which for me will be the AfterFX replacement. :thumbsup:

erikals
07-20-2013, 06:07 AM
another Adobe Creative Cloud WTF moment >

Creative Cloud “cloud” service scans for copyrighted material
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=1114800

Sekhar
07-20-2013, 09:06 AM
Q to anti-Adobe folks: did you guys actually stop using Adobe stuff yourself or is this just an academic back/forth for venting? I don't see how any pro can avoid using basic things like Photoshop and Illustrator and still work with the rest of the world.

erikals
07-20-2013, 09:27 AM
i got close to the same question for Adobe.

Q to Adobe folks: did you guys actually stop using Adobe stuff yourself?

shrox
07-20-2013, 10:28 AM
I am just going to stick with CS4, that's the highest version I have.

cresshead
07-20-2013, 11:42 AM
i wonder if the boxed elements versions of photoshop and premiere will stop too?

will my version 11 be the last of them?

jasonwestmas
07-20-2013, 11:47 AM
Q to anti-Adobe folks: did you guys actually stop using Adobe stuff yourself or is this just an academic back/forth for venting? I don't see how any pro can avoid using basic things like Photoshop and Illustrator and still work with the rest of the world.

Luckily, my work isn't in this 2D graphics realm as much for team based projects I can usually use non-adobe software and of course my 3D software packages. For example I don't usualy have to share PSD and Illustrator filles. Inkscape svg format and various bitmap formats work just fine for team based stuff.

I may stick with photoshop for its nice transformation tools and 16-bpc editing capabilities. Not sure yet, I still have to check out photoline.

Rayek
07-20-2013, 01:20 PM
Q to anti-Adobe folks: did you guys actually stop using Adobe stuff yourself or is this just an academic back/forth for venting? I don't see how any pro can avoid using basic things like Photoshop and Illustrator and still work with the rest of the world.

Yes I did (nine months ago) - and I can honestly say Photoline's workflow suits me a lot better than Photoshop. The only things missing in Photoline compared to Photoshop are the 3d and video components. I never liked Photoshop's built-in 3d tools anyway, and already worked in 3Dcoat for my 3d painting work. As for the video stuff: I never saw a point in those myself either. For me it's about professional image editing and compositing tools, and that's where Photoline outshines Photoshop in most areas.

Painting is pretty good in Photoline as well, but I mainly draw and paint in Manga Studio 5 (ClipStudio) - man, those drawing tools beat the crap out of Photoshop.

Illustrator I had replaced by Xara Designer and the built-in vector tools in Photoline.

Photoline saves and opens psd files (even opens psd files with layer effects and adjustment layers intact for the most part), and eps/pdf is more often than not enough for import and sharing files.

I did not even switch because of the subscription model - I switched nine months ago because my workflow and efficiency improved because of those other tools. They are mostly better than what Photoshop and Illustrator have on offer. Hard to believe? Well, I have been a professional working with Adobe tools since v3 of Photoshop.

Sekhar
07-20-2013, 02:35 PM
Glad Photoline is working out for you, I'm not a fan on Photoshop either. My point was that Adobe has so many critical and interacting tools these days that it's really hard not to use them as a pro. I guess some folks like you can get around it, but it's not so easy for others. E.g., for video, they've made the workflow real tight around all-Adobe stuff like Premiere Pro/After Effects/SpeedGrade/Media Encoder/etc. that work seamlessly - for example you can literally drag/drop an After Effects project file into Media Encoder for rendering. It'd be real hard to come up with an equivalent set of non-Adobe products that work as seamlessly.

Rayek
07-20-2013, 02:41 PM
That is absolutely true. I do still work in Afx CS6, for example, because I have not found an even reasonable alternative.

And the interoperability between Premiere, Afx, and so on: well, again hard to beat.

Nowadays I no longer do much video related work anymore, and my focus moved to other things. So for me it's not really an issue. But for others it may very well be.

Megalodon2.0
07-20-2013, 03:07 PM
Q to anti-Adobe folks: did you guys actually stop using Adobe stuff yourself or is this just an academic back/forth for venting? I don't see how any pro can avoid using basic things like Photoshop and Illustrator and still work with the rest of the world.

We use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and AfterFX. I didn't have enough money to upgrade our CS4 Production Premium before the deadline (Dec. 31st, '12) to be eligible for the upcoming CS7 - WHICH... never materialized and why MANY users are also angry.

I will continue using these tools until I "need" to upgrade. Photoline looks like a GREAT PS replacement and erikals (and others) recommend it highly. I take that recommendation seriously and WILL be purchasing it when I need it. The same with Hitfilm Ultimate as a replacement for AfterFX. For what I use AfterfX for, Hitfilm could probably take over easily. Unfortunately plugins like Element 3D (and many others) will be gone. But for the time being, CS4 will work just fine. I've got InDesign CS5.5 and MANY have gone back from CS6 to CS5.5 because of problems in the CS6 version. So InDesign CS5.5 will work fine for me for quite a long time. Illustrator can most likely be replaced by Xara Designer Pro. My wife still uses Illustrator CS2 after using Illustrator 10 for a LONG time. She has no desire to upgrade and that's fine with me as long as the job gets done.

We will purchase the programs I mentioned above when we need to. In fact, as soon as Sony has a REALLY GOOD sale for their upgrade to the Sony Creative Suite, I'll upgrade my Vegas Pro9 to the suite and get Hitfilm Ultimate with it! While there are many pro's who "need" PS, many pro's are also looking for alternatives. Currently Adobe Lightroom is a favorite - even though it too is "in the cloud" Adobe still sells perpetual licenses. Yeah... they can sell perpetual license of THIS piece of software, but not the others. Go figure. Anyway, many pro's - like the one pro photographer mentioned a couple of pages back - will not he held hostage by Adobe. Hopefully this will end up being the case when Adobe starts to level out their pricing and begin to increase it.

Megalodon2.0
07-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Glad Photoline is working out for you, I'm not a fan on Photoshop either. My point was that Adobe has so many critical and interacting tools these days that it's really hard not to use them as a pro. I guess some folks like you can get around it, but it's not so easy for others. E.g., for video, they've made the workflow real tight around all-Adobe stuff like Premiere Pro/After Effects/SpeedGrade/Media Encoder/etc. that work seamlessly - for example you can literally drag/drop an After Effects project file into Media Encoder for rendering. It'd be real hard to come up with an equivalent set of non-Adobe products that work as seamlessly.

I agree.

People will have to weigh the pros and cons of being addicted to Adobe forever or looking to change their workflows. Fortunately I've seen on the various forums and blogs that many of these people ARE looking for alternatives and recommendations from other professionals to move away from Adobe. As others have mentioned here, this should hopefully create an immense opportunity for other software developers to fill this consumer demand.

Rayek
07-20-2013, 05:26 PM
And that, of course, is the critical point to make, and one of the core reasons why Adobe decided to force the subscription model down everyone's throat: when is enough enough? Graphic design professionals have more than enough features and functionality in CS5 and CS6, and this begs the question why anyone would update to a new version at all. A ceiling has been reached for many, and likewise with Photoshop for most users, it became harder and harder for Adobe to convince existing users to update.

The ONLY real reasons for many to update was to keep up with new camera raw updates and to keep being compatible with the newest version - chicken and the egg (almost). In my experience more and more people decided to either wait out a version or not even update at all. Core workflows in Ph and Illustrator haven't changed at all in twenty years. Just more features bolted on top of old workflow approaches.

Why update if Illustrator CS2 does everything you require and fits perfectly well in your workflow? That was probably another thought behind Adobe's decision to make CS2 available for free. And a slight chance that CS2 users will update to the subscription model.

Another issue is the viability of some of Adobe's software: Dreamweaver is NOT a real IDE at all, and on top of that many far more speedy and feature-rich free, open source and commercial alternatives exist. With the new versions of both Dreamweaver and Flash a lot of the trusted old functionality is removed, and I feel that the subscription model is a bit of a patch to make up for that. Or at least, it allows Adobe to refactor those applications faster (wishful thinking).

Hopefully this move by Adobe will open up the market again to true innovative alternatives, and force Adobe to behave in a less reactive and slow manner. They've had it too easy - time to wake up, and become the innovative company again it once was.

Rayek
07-20-2013, 05:32 PM
saw some here wanted to check out PhotoLine, so... >


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BfuwYmBfbU

Erikals, I noticed you use an older (official?) version of Photoline in the video - have you downloaded and tried the newer beta version(s) yet?

erikals
07-20-2013, 05:34 PM
no, not just yet, any good improvements?...

cagey5
07-20-2013, 06:01 PM
And that, of course, is the critical point to make, and one of the core reasons why Adobe decided to force the subscription model down everyone's throat: when is enough enough? Graphic design professionals have more than enough features and functionality in CS5 and CS6, and this begs the question why anyone would update to a new version at all. A ceiling has been reached for many, and likewise with Photoshop for most users, it became harder and harder for Adobe to convince existing users to update.

The ONLY real reasons for many to update was to keep up with new camera raw updates and to keep being compatible with the newest version - chicken and the egg (almost). In my experience more and more people decided to either wait out a version or not even update at all. Core workflows in Ph and Illustrator haven't changed at all in twenty years. Just more features bolted on top of old workflow approaches.

Why update if Illustrator CS2 does everything you require and fits perfectly well in your workflow? That was probably another thought behind Adobe's decision to make CS2 available for free. And a slight chance that CS2 users will update to the subscription model.

Another issue is the viability of some of Adobe's software: Dreamweaver is NOT a real IDE at all, and on top of that many far more speedy and feature-rich free, open source and commercial alternatives exist. With the new versions of both Dreamweaver and Flash a lot of the trusted old functionality is removed, and I feel that the subscription model is a bit of a patch to make up for that. Or at least, it allows Adobe to refactor those applications faster (wishful thinking).

Hopefully this move by Adobe will open up the market again to true innovative alternatives, and force Adobe to behave in a less reactive and slow manner. They've had it too easy - time to wake up, and become the innovative company again it once was.

Good points.

Rayek
07-20-2013, 06:26 PM
no, not just yet, any good improvements?...

Oh, wow, you have no idea then? So many basic workflow enhancements, small ones and bigger ones. Hard to know where to start. The devs really listened these past few months to improve the overall usability.

Some of the changes and improvements are:

- invisible layers no longer become visible when selected (this I really hated before)
- rotate hand tool to rotate the view (essential for painting!!!)
- starkly improved svg import and export (really, this one saved one of my projects a couple of months ago)
- interface is so much improved: any panel can now be moved and grouped, it looks more professional, lots of smaller and bigger improvements. It already feels much more modern and current.
- brighter and darker tool now has tablet settings (dodge and burn)
- lots of layer panel behaviour improvements
- better 32bit/16bit --> 8bit dithering
- one-click colour set (instead of double-clicking)
- small icons to point out cmyk colours in the colour palettes
- numerous small adjustments to curve editor, histogram editor, and other panels. Numeric fields are now scroll wheel controllable. With <ctrl>-drag values can also be set. and many more.
- the stamp tool now works with full 48bit/96bit loadable brushes in any layer mode.
- so many snapping improvements: in vector mode, with guides, with layer objects, etc. Quick guides are displayed when holding down the <alt> key to snap to other layer objects, etc.
- a non-modal guides panel!!!
- lots of document panel improvements
- page panel: each page can be named now (great to organize your texture channels and source images used throughout as virtual layers)
- cloud filter works in full 48bit, and a gradient can be set as well.
- external programs can now be used as a filter
- smear tool works in 96bit for better quality
- webp import and export
- automatic switch back and forth to the erase tool when you use the wacom pen eraser
- pdf/x basic support
- lots of vector edit mode improvements
- tiff with psd basic support (compatible as to how Photoshop layered tiffs are used in Photoshop)

And much more smaller improvements. In addition so many bugs have been resolved. All quite impressive.

Really, you should begin downloading NOW. It can be found in the beta testers part of the forum.

PS are you aware that when you place the 32bit and 64bit ghostscript dll (gsdll32.dll/gsdll64.dll) into PL's hlp folder, you will get full eps support? I found out about this a month ago. Download here: http://www.ghostscript.com/download/gsdnld.html
Then use a capable archiver to open the archives, and browse to $_OUTDIR\bin. Copy to the hlp folder, and done

erikals
07-22-2013, 05:34 AM
hm, looks quite good, but i don't seem to have access to it, i found this though >
http://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewforum.php?f=1
but that's in German, not sure if those files are the same?

not sure if i got this one > "external programs can now be used as a filter" ?

----------------------

Oh, and for Adobe Creative Cloud fans, Apple has been hacked again... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/tongue.gif

Rayek
07-22-2013, 08:59 AM
Yes, that's the correct link (should've included it). Thread title:

Neue Testversion 17.90b12

The download links work for english and other languages. Just install over you existing version. Runs stable - I had one issue with psd files that include a 16-bit adjustment layer crashing PL, and that will be resolved in the next beta.

Megalodon2.0
07-23-2013, 12:32 AM
Another "satisfied" CC customer trying to cancel their membership:

Heather Watkins:

"To ALL Prospective Consumers:

DO NOT BUY ADOBE CREATIVE CLOUD! Don't even use the "free 30-day trial". It's a complete scam! I only warn everyone about this from personal experience.
I signed up for the 12 month subscription and read ALL the fine print stating that I could try the Creative Cloud service and if I wasn't satisfied within 30 days I could cancel without any penalty...meaning that I would not be charged for the 30 days of trial service NOR a cancellation penalty. As a student, we are told we need a lot of programs, but I tried the two programs I was interested in (Photoshop and Lightroom) and determined that I could do everything I needed in Lightroom. After testing it out I decided I was just going to purchase Lightroom outright since only a few months of the Creative Cloud would be more expensive than just buying the program I needed. Once I made up my mind, I stopped using the Creative Cloud altogether, just so there wouldn't be an issue once I cancelled.

I tried to cancel via the "help chat" (which was the only option readily accessible on the site when searching how to cancel an account) on Saturday July 13th and was told by "Jayaprakash" that "applications were currently down" and that I needed to "contact back within 24 hours". I told "Jayaprakash" that I needed to cancel my account by July 15th and was concerned that I was going to get the run around until the 30 days was up. "Jayaprakash" assured me that was not going to happen and that I just needed to "contact back within 24 hours"...and that was the ONLY response I got for 7 times in succession before I finally got so fed up I just decided to try to contact back later.
Since chat was obviously no help, on July 14th I researched other ways to contact Adobe and got a toll-free sales number...that ended up only being available Monday–Friday from 5am–7pm (Pacific Time). The fact that they reference their time in US Pacific time is important because later I was told the time in India was the only time that mattered...but that is later. When I went to do the "help chat" function, the selection said that someone was available to chat, but after sitting in front of my computer for 2.5 hours waiting for someone to respond, I could not waste anymore time or frustration and decided I just had to wait until Monday.

On July 15th at around noon I attempted to talk to someone using the "help chat" function again to check on my request. I told the customer service representative, "Noorudheen" that I had spoken to "Jayaprakash" on the 13th and was attempting to cancel my account, but was told there was an error on Adobe's end and that I would have to contact back later. "Noorhudheen" informed me that I couldn't cancel now because it was in "processing" status. I said that was unacceptable and I was told that it would be "escalated to the next level" and that "they will get back to you via email within 2-3 business days". I again said I needed to get it taken care of ASAP and that I had attempted to cancel the service for the past 3 days. "Noorhudheen", after keeping me waiting for over 15 minutes, said that I would get an email confirmation within 15 minutes saying the service had been cancelled and refunded. After asking if I could get a phone number to speak with someone, just in case I was being jerked around again, she linked me the number to Adobe Africa... Total time spent on this chat...1 hour and 15 minutes, with no resolution.

Obviously I had hoped I would get an email within the 15 minutes that was promised by "Noorhudheen", but of course, that was a lie too. So I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and wait the 2 business days.

On July 17th, I called Adobe's sales number and had to leave my number to get a call back. Half an hour later I talked to someone whose name I can't even pronounce and she was extremely rude. She told me that I tried to cancel after the 30 day trial, which I assured her I had tried to cancel before, but she said since I didn't call that it didn't matter. Despite the fact that I had actually printed out my chat logs since she claimed those never happened either, she told me that I would be charged an additional $120 plus taxes to cancel my account. I was shocked. I had PROOF that I had tried to cancel my account. I had experienced terrible customer service up until that point, and then this person was calling me a liar and even told me that she was doing me a FAVOR by calling me back at all. After arguing with her and asking her to get me someone else (which she refused) she then claimed that she had found one of my chats (the one on July 15th) and said that it was actually on the 16th. I told her that wasn't true and that I had a transcript of it to which she replied that it was the 16th in her time zone and that was all that mattered... WHAT?!? Yes, that's right, if you want an Adobe customer support agent, you better know what the time it is in India. After more hostile treatment and tears on my end she finally agreed that if I scanned her the copies of the chats she would "see what she could do". I immediately send her the email while I was on the phone with her and asked her to confirm that she received the transcripts. After another 30 minutes of waiting she told me "not to worry about it" and I was assured that the situation would be resolved in a few days and to expect an email.

After such a horrendous experience, you'd think they would at least fix the situation THEY caused...not the case. It's almost July 23rd and I've still received NO information that my account has been cancelled and I've been refunded. I have tried to contact "help chat" multiple times only to be put in the permanent wait queue. I have no choice but to dispute the charge, cancel my credit card, file complaints with the BBB and do my duty to warn all of you out there to NOT do business with Adobe...at least not their Creative Cloud service! "

Rayek
07-23-2013, 12:55 AM
I just do not understand why Adobe makes it impossible to cancel your subscription with a simple "stop my subscription" button. Would make life so much easier for customers.

...

Oh wait, that's the point, isn't it? ;-P

wrightyp100
07-23-2013, 02:04 AM
Not wishing to feel the full wrath of the Don, but a quick google search found this.

http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/cancel-membership-subscription.html

Seems you log in to your account and cancel your plan. Or have I missed something?

Rayek
07-23-2013, 02:17 AM
Not wishing to feel the full wrath of the Don, but a quick google search found this.

http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/cancel-membership-subscription.html

Seems you log in to your account and cancel your plan. Or have I missed something?

Only with the monthly plan, it seems. To cancel the 12 month plan, you will need to contact (chat!) with Adobe Support. Which can be quite problematic in selected cases like the one above.

Thing is, when the installation of CC goes according to plan, no problem. When problems do occur, and support is essential, the Indian based support is... well, quite bad to say the very least. I've read many a nightmarish account of customers having to deal with "Adobe Support". Luckily I have never had any issues when I used Adobe software in the past, though I shudder at the thought of having to contact that support line.

Well, water under the bridge for me - I no longer run the risk now ;-)

saranine
07-23-2013, 03:48 AM
It's classic corporate scam school from Adobe. Suck the customer in with a sugar coated deal. With a Faustian wave of the hand "all these cloud apps can be yours for the low low price..." and "you have 30 days to withdraw". Then add in half truths about withdrawal. Run the customer around. Then, as an essential scam skill you must as a company blame the customer for it all. You must lie too. That is very important. Even fake the chat records. Jim Carrey was right in the film Liar Liar when he said to his kid "there are sometime in life when we have to lie". Grab the customer. Run them around. Lock 'em in. Get their money.

I've lived so long now that I've seen all of these scams before. I've been the victim of all this. In the 1990's there was an ISP that is now defunct. It was called Ozemail. It kept customers on the wrong internet plan so that you were charged huge amounts. I was charged 300 dollars a momth for dialup with shaping at using over 40 MB of download. Yes folks. I said MB. That was the 90's when companies knew that people didn't know what a Mb was because the internet was so new. And boy oh boy did these ruthless, money hungry sharks take advantage of the normal non-computer person.

So I've seen it all before. I've seen this stuff. I know how these companies work. I would encourage anyone who has these experiences with Adobe to keep all chat and other records. Because a class action at some point against Adobe would not surprise me.

And to answer an earlier point. I am not anti-Adobe. I am anti creative cloud. At least primarily. Then from that standpoint I can justifiably critique the ethics of Adobe as a company.

BigHache
07-23-2013, 06:07 AM
While I can appreciate the anecdote of someone being unable to cancel their subscription (this seems to be some level of problem with just about any company with a subscription), I also think that this person is young and didn't think to just go to their credit card company and say, "Hey block all charges from Adobe, I'm trying to cancel a subscription and they won't let me."

Yes, the process should be really easy from Adobe's side. You also need to be proactive should a company fail on their end.

cagey5
07-23-2013, 06:22 AM
If that was me they screwed in such a blatant manner, I don't care how big the company, they would feel my full wrath, court action, the works. I know no pity.. ;)

saranine
07-23-2013, 06:38 AM
As I said I think that a class action is inevitable. I predict one within a year.

It is sad to see a company like Adobe depart from customer service to this extent.

Ma3rk
07-23-2013, 04:18 PM
Forcing it down our throats!

I own Adobe Production Premium CS6. I've NEVER had any interest in the CC version, have told Adobe a number of times that I'd never even consider it, etc., etc.

Well, this morning I fired up the system and had a system tray notification that there was an update for one Adobe product. OK, fine, go ahead.

It finishes and I've new icon on the desktop. I click it and it's Adobe CC Desktop, and a panel launches to Log-on or Create a CC account!

I immediately went into control panel to uninstall it (as of course there was no option in the Programs list) which fortunately it does, but Jeezus Fracking Kryst Adobe!

That is NOT an update to my existing products! That is your pea-brained marketing morons trying to force your P.o.S. concept onto a long time legit end user by disguising it!

Is it really requiring you to resort to deception now in order to get folk to use CC? SHAME ON YOU AGAIN ADOBE!

M.

Ernest
07-23-2013, 06:51 PM
Forcing it down our throats!

I own Adobe Production Premium [...] YOU AGAIN ADOBE!

M.

The same happened to me last night, but I haven't dared to uninstall it yet because I don't want to lose the Adobe update manager that this cloud thing seems to have replaced. It took my Adobe ID, so I didn't have to register for the cloud but I suppose that we already count as "cloud users" that can be flaunted at Adobe's next stockholder's meeting anyway *argh*.

Did you get back the "classic" update manager after uninstalling the cloud thing, or was that a gonner?

Megalodon2.0
07-23-2013, 06:54 PM
While I can appreciate the anecdote of someone being unable to cancel their subscription (this seems to be some level of problem with just about any company with a subscription), I also think that this person is young and didn't think to just go to their credit card company and say, "Hey block all charges from Adobe, I'm trying to cancel a subscription and they won't let me."

Yes, the process should be really easy from Adobe's side. You also need to be proactive should a company fail on their end.

No, this is not just because this person was young - here are MANY more instances of this sort of thing - apparently all ages. You also should not HAVE to go another extra mile to contact your credit card company and stopping payment. This is ENTIRELY Adobe screwing up, plain and simple.

Another one:

Bous Stephanoumenous:

"Hi, I just wanted to echo the experiences of Molnár AD and Heather Watkins. My experience with Adobe Creative Cloud was horrible. I've spoken with two customer service representations, the first when I purchased creative cloud and the second because customers must chat with someone, as Heather pointed out, if they want to cancel. Either out of ignorance or deceit, both were misleading and gave incorrect or unclear information. As a result, I've been left with a $120 bill. It seems to me that they set up this creative cloud subscription service simply to cheat people. Be careful."

jaf
07-23-2013, 07:16 PM
Why does this remind me of cable tv?

Actually, being on a fixed income, I must have "money-in-hand" to purchase my software. How can a person on a fixed income invest a year and then find the price went up past what their fixed income can handle. I would think there are quite a few people in that position.

I'm also finding I'm being forced to upgrade my OS even though it's fine for the software I'm running now. But many developers have or are in the process of dropping my old winXP. But if I upgrade, I start to get into the realm of "my old software won't run on the newer OS versions...."

Simply gets more and more frustrating each passing year. So far my CS3 is fine and I've got Photoline on the "back burner." And I'm stubborn.

Ma3rk
07-23-2013, 08:51 PM
The same happened to me last night, but I haven't dared to uninstall it yet because I don't want to lose the Adobe update manager that this cloud thing seems to have replaced. It took my Adobe ID, so I didn't have to register for the cloud but I suppose that we already count as "cloud users" that can be flaunted at Adobe's next stockholder's meeting anyway *argh*.

Did you get back the "classic" update manager after uninstalling the cloud thing, or was that a gonner?


No, but if you go to Bridge/Updates ... it launches the normal Application manager.

M.

saranine
07-24-2013, 02:56 AM
I just did that! Got rid of Adobe Creative Cloud up date thingy!!!! Yes. I found that bridge updates. Photoshop does as well.

Found out today that Adobe got rid of Pixelbender in CS6. Makes me wonder if they did that to leave people in a version that is hard to improve yourself; you can;t make your own filters. Then they have more chance of locking people into CC. Weheras if you could still make your own filters you could say "CC get lost, I will make 200 filters and make photoshop, after effects etc as I want them to be".

I don't think that any plan, however cynical or Machiavellian, would surprise me from Adobe anymore.

TheMightySpud
07-24-2013, 03:44 AM
Just throwing my hat in the ring....

Creative cloud for me is an absolute godsend. Perpetual updates, so no messing about with potential yearly updates etc. Running CS6 and the new CC versions side by side, using the same account info. I honestly can't see the bad. For the things I use I would have to buy the Master Collection or 2-3 of the individual packs. Beyond all that, simply on a cost basis it's absolutely brilliant. roughly £1400 for Master Collection vs. roughly £600 per year. Can't really fault it if honest.

As for the initial point, I'm fairly certain that the 'Membership can be revoked at any time' is a standard clause in TOC's of this nature (I'm pretty sure things like iTunes etc. have the same one) simply because it protects the company against legal action in case for some reason they pull the plug, but as long as the money keeps rolling in I can't see that happening as Adobe stuff is pretty much the De Facto software suite for graphics/web/motion graphics etc. (at least I think the most widely used)

TheMightySpud

erikals
07-24-2013, 07:24 AM
I honestly can't see the bad...

while i agree some CC things are good, you can't see anything bad with it?
none of these points? >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136384-Why-I-will-never-sign-up-for-Adobe-Creative-Cloud&p=1331952&viewfull=1#post1331952

Rayek
07-27-2013, 06:59 PM
Adobe CEO to other Adobe Top Managers in emergency meeting: "OMSHIVA, CC numbers are down again, and no-one's buying into our marketing crap! Shareholders will be unhappy if we don't deliver on our financial targets! I - uhm... I mean we will be replaced!!! What to do???!!!"

Top Manager #1 responds: "Let's lower the prices - people will buy in"

CEO: "No, we tried that last month - the sheep, *cough* customers aren't biting!"

Top Manager #2: "How about we give CC users those already developed new features now, instead of 2015?"

Top Manager #3: "We've already introduced so many show-stopping bugs in Photoshop, Premiere, and removed a chunk of functionality in Dreamweaver and Flash, and killed Fireworks - not going to work, I am afraid" :-(

Top Manager #2 chimes in: "Yup, and we already have enough problems with CC and the network, licenses, and unhappy CC customers trying to unsubscribe and we made that reasonably difficult too. Something's gotta give here, guys"

While Top Manager #1 hands out another batch of Cuban cigars, silence ensues amongst them. Their very existence hangs in the balance. The gravity of the situation dawns upon these poor business men.

Top Manager #4: "I know! We'll hand out one year CC licenses for free! Yank 'm in with free stuff, get 'em hooked, and we'll have 'em where we want them!"

Top Manager #5 adds enthusiastically: "And we'll have enough subscriptions to pacify the shareholders!"

Other Top Managers grumble and mumble their approval.

CEO: "Let's do it!"

And thus it began:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1378891

Megalodon2.0
07-27-2013, 07:21 PM
I honestly can't see the bad.
You gotta open your eyes for that. Stopping subscription and being unable to open/edit your files (AfterFX, Premiere, InDesign, etc.) is a HUGE bad.



And thus it began:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1378891
They've take a trick from the world of drug addicts - give out free crack and everyone will ultimately be addicted.

jasonwestmas
07-27-2013, 07:55 PM
They've take a trick from the world of drug addicts - give out free crack and everyone will ultimately be addicted.

That sounds familiar in more places than one. ;)

Sekhar
07-27-2013, 08:15 PM
Adobe CEO to other Adobe Top Managers in emergency meeting: "OMSHIVA, CC numbers are down again, and no-one's buying into our marketing crap! Shareholders will be unhappy if we don't deliver on our financial targets! I - uhm... I mean we will be replaced!!! What to do???!!!"
http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1378891

Rayek, not only is this not funny, but bringing in the ethnic stuff is also not cool...actually it's a bit offensive because this guy being an Indian has nothing to do with the conversation here.

Megalodon2.0
07-27-2013, 08:16 PM
That sounds familiar in more places than one. ;)

True, but Adobe is taking it to new extremes. They have to in order to bulk up their CC numbers.

Here's another forum (Creative Cow) that is "discussing" the Adobe "situation:"

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/4248

erikals
07-28-2013, 01:37 AM
Rayek, not only is this not funny, but bringing in the ethnic stuff is also not cool...actually it's a bit offensive because this guy being an Indian has nothing to do with the conversation here.

i though that was pretty harmless... as long as it doesn't escalate.
one can't forbid absolutely everything i think, people will go mute...

erikals
07-28-2013, 01:54 AM
btw, sometimes Adobe removes features, (or perhaps a plugin stops working) say you had something you needed in CS2, then they remove it in CS3, then it's simple, i can just use my CS2 install.

but what about when they remove a feature from CC7 to CC8...? can i go back to CC7...?
nothing i've seen inclines that to be so...