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Tony3d
06-25-2013, 06:27 AM
Please, tell me everything you don't like about this rendering. Trying to figure out why people either seem o hate it period, or really like it. I know the cloth has to go.

Pamela G. Juust
06-25-2013, 10:50 AM
The composition is uninteresting, materials are generic, ground is weird and i don't understand what i'm looking at. : )

RudySchneider
06-25-2013, 01:32 PM
Tony3D ---
I don't completely agree with Pamela, I suppose primarily because I KNOW what I'm looking at! It reminds me of my days in ham radio eons ago, when I would be "working DX" at night in my room with the lights out, the tubes in the final stage of my transmitter glowing brightly. From that perspective, the render looks very convincing to me. But I can see where the general public, especially those too young to even appreciate the existence of discrete transistors, let alone monster vacuum tubes, would be hard pressed to say "Yep, that looks like my amplifier."

On the practical side, those two tubes in the front look like they might be an unwelcome source of burning whenever I want to twiddle the knobs on either side.

Tony3d
06-25-2013, 01:42 PM
Tony3D ---
I don't completely agree with Pamela, I suppose primarily because I KNOW what I'm looking at! It reminds me of my days in ham radio eons ago, when I would be "working DX" at night in my room with the lights out, the tubes in the final stage of my transmitter glowing brightly. From that perspective, the render looks very convincing to me. But I can see where the general public, especially those too young to even appreciate the existence of discrete transistors, let alone monster vacuum tubes, would be hard pressed to say "Yep, that looks like my amplifier."

On the practical side, those two tubes in the front look like they might be an unwelcome source of burning whenever I want to twiddle the knobs on either side.

Bingo! Well, I guess we're showing our age. This is actually a high end Cary tube audio Amplifier. The finishes on this product is really reflective. Did the best I could with the tubes.

JoePoe
06-25-2013, 03:18 PM
And input you shall have.

I actually think the individual elements are quite nice, especially at full size.
Unfortunately, the whole, in this case (for me) is not greater than the sum of it's parts. But it could be!
(I don't need to know what, exactly, it is that I'm looking at to be compelled by an image. I did know it was some type of older tube radio thingy.... but frankly, I just looked at it as kinda "steampunk" and was fine with that, but that's neither here nor there.)

The composition in your avatar (of the same model) is much more interesting than this image. Why? Because it follows the Rule of Thirds. The central position of the main elements in this big image makes for what Pam calls "uninteresting". I agree. AND compounding the issue, the (what I'm assuming is) a secondary object... the baton(?) is occupying the spot closest to the key Rule of Thirds position. So the Baton is occupying the most important spot in the layout, but it is obviously NOT the most important thing there.... so it becomes a huge distraction as is confusing to the eye.... just in placement alone. The lighting on the Baton adds to the confusion. It's way too bright calling even more attention to itself. If it's safe to assume that the major light sources are the tubes themselves, the far side of the baton needs to have much more of a shadow. It seems (and this is just a guess) that you may have added a light (or increased diffuse) just to make it pop.... but now it's floating and too conspicuous. It needs to fall away more into the shadows, naturally, and become the secondary object it is.

So, the simple act of changing the camera angle will drastically improve this image.

A couple smaller points:
1) Even brand new things aren't this clean. Add a little dust and a little (just a little) "grime". Just enough to break up the solid surface colors a teeny tiny bit. (How about some "charring" or blackening on the interior tube elements.... that would help sell the idea of heat..... just thinking out loud :))
2) Even very reflective things aren't this reflective. Blur reflections.... even just a little bit. (btw the image reflecting in the bulbs looks like it would be throwing more light on the scene itself)
3) I have to agree with Pam on the floor. Needs something completely different. And the blurring here is ....odd. It's hard to tell (it's so dark), but if you're going for "depth of field", then you need to have a little bit of the far(and/or)near areas of the amplifier blurring as well. This will unify and lock the image together as a whole. Now it looks like an in-focus object on a blurry floor.

You've already identified the issue with the cloth. Although in concept, I don't have a problem with it.... it just didn't crease very well, it's a little too bright on the near side and the texture is too "furry".

So all in all, just some small changes will really make this baby pop!! :thumbsup:

And just in case you didn't see it before.....Rule of Thirds!! :D It's not written in stone, but in this case I think you really need it. MOVE THAT CAMERA!!!!!

JoePoe
06-25-2013, 03:33 PM
PS: You can even activate the Rule of Thirds overlay in your camera to help you out. I prefer Golden Section, but that's a whole other conversation. :hey:

Tony3d
06-25-2013, 04:00 PM
PS: You can even activate the Rule of Thirds overlay in your camera to help you out. I prefer Golden Section, but that's a whole other conversation. :hey:

Thanks a lot for the critique! I will work on this.

JoePoe
06-25-2013, 04:30 PM
No prob, hope it helps.... looking forward to next incarnation.

I'm going to amend a couple of things though.....

I think now that the object that occupies the most interesting spot is the fabric on the corner. That is the most pure 1/3 position. The tubes do lay on a horizontal 1/3, but the central position is still overpowering. The baton is a little further away from 1/3.... BUT what I am seeing now, is that once I look at it it leads my eyes up and out of the image altogether.

So the corner cloth, the tubes & the baton create this triangle that competes for your attention.... and one of them actually throws you out of the picture.

(edit: oh, and the amplifier and floor grid line up a little TOO perfect. Better to have one or the other a tad bit askew.)

JoePoe
06-25-2013, 05:07 PM
Made a little diagram for you with one last thought and then I'll shut up... :D.

The central position of the tubes is reinforced by several other elements that add to the bisection of the whole picture. Cutting the pic in equally weighted halves is generally not going to be very dynamic. That.... and sooo much is going on in the central vertical 1/3 and really not much in the outer 2/3s.

A great example of everything that you've got going on, but (to me) holds together well is the Scarface poster... bisected image, triangular elements
.... but there is a hierarch and a wonderful subtle asymmetry (white side has more stuff but the black is "heavier" so to speak... they balance each other).
The face is the clear king and the others are supporting elements. May be apples and oranges.... that image just sprang to mind. :beerchug:

Tony3d
06-26-2013, 09:17 AM
I'll have something to show soon. Been adjusting lighting ground texture, and other textures.

Tony3d
06-26-2013, 01:07 PM
Ok, made a lot of changes to this. Think I need more light on the right side to illuminate the ground plane. For some reason when it's uploaded to the site it looks much darker than it does on my desktop. Not sure why.

jasonwestmas
06-26-2013, 02:43 PM
(First image) It feels like the device is sitting on a strange looking floor, not sure why that is. Materials are nice, just needs better lighting and maybe more interesting things to reflect.

Your second image is nice, I would actually go with something a little less reflective for your wooden "table". Keep pushing the lights (rim lighting?) and see what you come up with perhaps.

XswampyX
06-26-2013, 02:52 PM
I think it needs to be set in a brighter scene. I know you want to show off the deep glow of the valves but the darkness is hiding the rest of your model.

Some images off the net.

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/xXswampyXx/Cary805_zps2b92c80b.jpg (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/xXswampyXx/media/Cary805_zps2b92c80b.jpg.html)

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/xXswampyXx/cary_cad805ae_zpsdea963ca.jpg (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/xXswampyXx/media/cary_cad805ae_zpsdea963ca.jpg.html)

See how bright they are?

Ryan Roye
06-26-2013, 03:23 PM
The things that stick out to me in the first image, this may be a repeat of what has already been said in this thread:

The composition and choice of camera angle just doesn't seem right. There's nothing here to really direct my attention so the image feels chaotic. The lighting of the objects doesn't match the floor... if this is technically accurate, you may want to make it technically inaccurate and put some soft light onto that floor to make the image more appealing. The instrument to the left is also distracting and should probably be placed closer to the box and have darker shading put on it.

Tony3d
06-26-2013, 03:28 PM
This looks pretty good. No?

JoePoe
06-26-2013, 04:44 PM
What I like....
I like the reflection blurring much better!
And of course I like the table material much MUCH better. Although I too think it's still dark.
And soooo much better.... the baton is not jumping out at me.

Still too much negative space on the sides for my taste. I realize you are wanting to use an HD wide format. Just not enough machine for that. Perhaps Swampy's example can work..... two machines!

Below: I've cropped the image differently (major tubes are closer to a major 1/3rd), changed the baton direction to point INTO the picture rather than out (although still distracting me for some reason), and brightened things up a bit (you're on the right track there). :stumped:

Also, what is your camera's Lens focal length? Is it in the 20's.... the perspective seems a little much. Try 35mm or even 50MM (closer to human eye).

Snosrap
06-26-2013, 08:20 PM
This looks pretty good. No?Still somewhat uninteresting.

akaracquel
06-26-2013, 10:08 PM
Bingo! Well, I guess we're showing our age.

:ohmy: Perhaps some merit in terms of knowing what you're looking at. My husband walked past while i was viewing it and your image was the equivalent of stopping traffic for him. He was almost drooling and started saying words like "oooooh valves" & "x-rays" like an enthusiastically entranced zombie moth, being drawn towards a very very bright light :D :thumbsup:

VictoryX
06-27-2013, 12:15 AM
Skewer Screen Left, the rod has a metal color but no reflection no spec no nicks, dents, or imperfections. The cork handle has a cork color textured, again no bump no spec no imperfections it's perfectly smooth.

Alot of the surfaces on the actual machine just seem to perfect not a single flaw. Even something that came straight from the factory would have something. Some small knicks that catch nice spec hits some kind of bump.

I feel like the bulbs were given all this amazing detail but the base, front, and back end are just square pieces, rounded boxes with a basic shader applied.

The staging is a bit UN-interesting a more dynamic shot could help a lot with some DOF elements in play.

The new ground is better, but is really grainy maybe a low anti aliasing or to high of a bump.

Tony3d
06-28-2013, 07:20 AM
I'm going with this composition. I strongly believe the rule of thirds does not have to be strictly adhered to, especially in this case. I will work on the baton textures, and feel that the amp textures realistically resemble the real amp. These high end audio components, frequently have these highly polished micron finishes, that people come to expect in a $5000.00 mono block tube amp. Thanks for all your input, I do realizes I rushed the first off without much thought. I like it now, and I must be happy with it. Again it does appear slightly darker once it hits the website. Not sure if thats from compression or if it's a profile thing. I may add a slight texturing to the capacitors.

VermilionCat
06-28-2013, 09:06 AM
I agree with XswampyX and JoePoe. It still looks too dark. Why don't you put some strong shiny reflection on the floor to add some contrast?

djwaterman
06-28-2013, 10:59 AM
The thing itself looks perfectly correct, and whether it's too dark or not is just personal taste really. If you want it lighter have you put the scene into the RGB color space preset and then put the render display to RGB also? You could try that for a different look. What's the cork handled spike thing for?

I think it's such a nice model that I'd also do a separate scene that is just a straight product shot in a white lit space, like you'd see in a audio magazine.

Tony3d
06-28-2013, 11:37 AM
The thing itself looks perfectly correct, and whether it's too dark or not is just personal taste really. If you want it lighter have you put the scene into the RGB color space preset and then put the render display to RGB also? You could try that for a different look. What's the cork handled spike thing for?

I think it's such a nice model that I'd also do a separate scene that is just a straight product shot in a white lit space, like you'd see in a audio magazine.

The white spike thing is a musical director's baton. I agree that the brightness is a personal thing. I'm trying to set a mood here of a darkened room with the soft glow of tubes. I think the ash tray cements the scene into a 50-60's time frame. I'm actually from the early sixties, and this is very reminiscent of that time period. Just made baton slightly brighter to better match the lighting.

jasonwestmas
06-28-2013, 01:05 PM
Looking better all the time. I would agree with anyone who said that it would enhance the believe-ability if we knew what was causing the secondary light source. Like a overhead desk lamp or something like that. It would contribute more to making this room feel more lived in, just like the cigarette does. If this is a still I would just hand paint the smoke.

Tony3d
06-28-2013, 06:22 PM
Looking better all the time. I would agree with anyone who said that it would enhance the believe-ability if we knew what was causing the secondary light source. Like a overhead desk lamp or something like that. It would contribute more to making this room feel more lived in, just like the cigarette does. If this is a still I would just hand paint the smoke.

Good suggestion about the lamp. I could put a base of a lamp in the top right corner area. Is that what you mean?

pinkmouse
06-28-2013, 06:37 PM
I'd loose the baton, and replace it with a large Scotch. ;)

jaf
06-28-2013, 06:43 PM
I'd loose the baton, and replace it with a large Scotch. ;)
.... and some red lipstick smudges on the cigarette!

pinkmouse
06-28-2013, 06:51 PM
.... and some red lipstick smudges on the cigarette!

Now come on, let's be realistic here. What chance does any woman have when a chap's got his valve amp, glass of whiskey and 200 gramme audiophile pressing of Dark Side of the Moon. :D

Tony3d
06-28-2013, 06:58 PM
Now come on, let's be realistic here. What chance does any woman have when a chap's got his valve amp, glass of whiskey and 200 gramme audiophile pressing of Dark Side of the Moon. :D

Here here! But it does sound interesting.

jasonwestmas
06-28-2013, 08:05 PM
Good suggestion about the lamp. I could put a base of a lamp in the top right corner area. Is that what you mean?

yeah you could do that or just the reflecting of the lamp/bulb on the device would be enough. Perhaps use a photometric (physical) IES light to create a realistic light pattern on the subject of interest. Perhaps use the lamp to create a rim light, it doesn't have to be your primary light source. This helps make things look less computery/false and grounds the lighting in our world.