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View Full Version : Creation Splice, potential deformer stack / High End rigging abilities 'in LW' ?



pooby
06-21-2013, 09:46 AM
https://vimeo.com/68789512

This new system is non platform specific, so can run in Maya, Softimage, Max, Houdini,Lightwave, Modo, C4d etc allowing for Deformers, rigs etc to be exchangable between completely different apps.

Under the hood, it takes Data from the Scene, does all the work in Fabric Engine's core and passes the result back to the scene as deformation, motion modifier etc.
Fabric's core uses all the CPU and GPU your system has available, so is very fast.

As an ex Lightwave user (who would have killed for something like this back in the day) I thought I'd just let you know in case someone was interested in hooking it up to Ligthwaves nodes.

VonBon
06-21-2013, 11:09 AM
Looks like coding :stumped:

So is it taking the information from the nodes of the objects selected
and automatically creating the code that is being shown in the Splice window
so that you can then edit the outputted code or add to it?

and wth is KL?

The fact that there are so many languages for programming is the
main reason i don't take the time to learn one.

hrgiger
06-21-2013, 03:01 PM
So what could this do for LightWave as far as deformation and rigging beyond its capabilities now?

pooby
06-21-2013, 04:50 PM
It could, for example, take some nulls positions as controls for a rig, the whole rig could be constructed in Fabric, outputting the bone positions back into lightwave, or even, the final deformation. (for example the deformation result of full muscle system and skin)
Pretty much Anything can be made with fabric, so it's a way of working within your own app, but having access to abilities beyond what the app can do.
It's basically having an alternative core engine in your app, one that is at the cutting edge in terms of abilities and speed.

probiner
06-21-2013, 06:08 PM
Well that bit you are focusing on sounds like Messiah Pmg a little no? Anyway it has a probably much wider range. Would it too do something like an Simulated ICE Tree? It is something I can't see how LW can do even with Node Item Info.

Anyway I think you'll see more jumping around about it around here after more results are shown and there's someone showing it working inside of LW, cause seeing it work in Maya, etc, seems to draw a line.

As for me, I think it's very exciting if it can increase the power and ease of use for LW with the big plus of seamless interchangeable with other apps.

Cheers

pooby
06-22-2013, 05:16 AM
It can simulate, for sure. As long as Lw communicates the timeline and mesh, transform In, then it will just use that and simulate externally, sending back the transforms or deformation out data, seamlessly.
This is assuming LW can provide the hooks, which I would be surprised if it can't.
This is to manipulating meshes and transforms, what fprime was to rendering.

bobakabob
06-23-2013, 03:20 AM
Pooby, many thanks for the heads up, it looks amazing though mind bogglingly technical. If you have the time, once it's released I'm sure many Lightwavers would really appreciate you testing it for rigging and showing how LW can be enhanced.

erikals
06-23-2013, 04:10 AM
looks neat.

(not the same, but the last effect shown reminded me a bit about springythingy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpFzPBx6Ewk

pooby
06-23-2013, 06:31 AM
It is very technical. It's important to realise that this in itself on face value isn't something your average user would get excited about. Your average user would get excited when they see the results of what the tool would provide. It's like ICE in that regard. ICE is a tool to make tools, as is creation. But creation is a lot more powerful.
I'm just suggesting it in the unlikely hope that one user might want (maybe as a hobby project) to hook up LW to Creation.

erikals
06-23-2013, 07:00 AM
ah, i remember now, yeah, saw it some time back, dang neat! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
http://fabricengine.com/creation

what's the price though...?

pooby
06-24-2013, 11:57 AM
I believe its free for individual use, and 2 first seats free for studios.

erikals
06-25-2013, 08:19 AM
...
strange, hm... why is it free...?

Surrealist.
06-25-2013, 08:28 AM
I think it is kind of like other development platforms that are offered for free such as the Bullet library and many game engines like Ogre. And of course Python. Of course but limited to individuals.

hrgiger
06-25-2013, 09:21 AM
from what Pooby explained to me before the people behind fabric engine are ex softimage developers.

FabricPaul
06-25-2013, 06:45 PM
...
strange, hm... why is it free...?

Hi there - apologies for the delay, I only just saw this thread (and I had to reregister for some reason - new forums?)

Anyway, we don't think we should charge people to use Creation for their own use. The best way to get people to embrace and learn a platform is to give it to them - expecting someone to pay to learn how to use it is not likely to succeed. Likewise for studios, we find that it's hard for them to get a formal evaluation finished in a short period of time; often people are playing around with it at lunchtime. We give two free licenses to studios for the first year, after that they need to pay (or ask us nicely to renew the two licenses:)). That way people may decide to start using something like our Alembic viewer tool and they can prove it has value before they have to worry about paying for it. Basically, we make money through successful deployment of our technology - and the best chance for that to happen is to make it free and easy to get started.

Hope that helps,

Paul

Surrealist.
06-25-2013, 07:36 PM
Since the first time hearing of this I have been thinking this would definitely be something that would be wonderful for LightWave. I am not sure what would be involved in getting NewTek on board to get it supported but I think it would be a good marriage.

pooby
06-26-2013, 03:34 AM
I am confident that creation will become widely adopted over the next few years.
The benefit of having a centralised core that works in any package, or standalone, cannot be understated. It's a revolutionary concept. The idea that you could share deformers, rigs etc with maya, max or softimage users and visa versa, totally changes the game for everyone; and to some extent, levels the playing field as a future pipeline built around creation tools could 'almost' make the host package a matter of taste.
Imagine being able to make an auto rigger, and being able to sell that to every single cgi rigger in any package. This is a healthy opening up of the market, that would encourage a lot more innovation that would be available to everyone.
It is important to note that the fabric engine core is also a few orders of magnitude faster than any current dcc package, being cutting edge architecture that takes into consideration all the modern computing GPU and cpu multithreading capabilities that were not anticipated when, say Maya was conceived. So the advantage is not just in interchange and the abilities it gives the host package, but also a massive increase in processing speed.

djwaterman
06-26-2013, 05:22 AM
I hope this is being considered as part of LW's future.

hrgiger
06-26-2013, 08:24 AM
i just suggested to this to a lw developer who is looking to add a feature that i see fabric engine already has a s a part of its core creation tools. i just dont know what needs to happen to make this possible.

Tobian
06-26-2013, 08:41 AM
Ok so it's free to learn on, which is an excellent premise.. but if it's being used in production, you will presumably have to pay for it per node? Could be pretty pricey. Still I do see the appeal. I guess it would likely have to have the hooks built into LW, to make it really efficient, but maybe Hurley could take a look at it? He did some pretty impressive things with Ibounce?

allabulle
06-26-2013, 08:43 AM
I am confident that creation will become widely adopted over the next few years.
The benefit of having a centralised core that works in any package, or standalone, cannot be understated. It's a revolutionary concept. The idea that you could share deformers, rigs etc with maya, max or softimage users and visa versa, totally changes the game for everyone; and to some extent, levels the playing field as a future pipeline built around creation tools could 'almost' make the host package a matter of taste.
Imagine being able to make an auto rigger, and being able to sell that to every single cgi rigger in any package. This is a healthy opening up of the market, that would encourage a lot more innovation that would be available to everyone.
It is important to note that the fabric engine core is also a few orders of magnitude faster than any current dcc package, being cutting edge architecture that takes into consideration all the modern computing GPU and cpu multithreading capabilities that were not anticipated when, say Maya was conceived. So the advantage is not just in interchange and the abilities it gives the host package, but also a massive increase in processing speed.

On paper that sounds really good. Let's see if it can be used within LightWave too and how the thing evolves in general. It really looks promising.

Surrealist.
06-26-2013, 09:23 AM
i just suggested to this to a lw developer who is looking to add a feature that i see fabric engine already has a s a part of its core creation tools. i just dont know what needs to happen to make this possible.

It does come at some interesting timing. LW Devs have had an agenda. Which had not included something like this, but rather 3P development on a new architecture and a new fully accessible SDK. I am going to guess hat the thought has more to do with keeping LightWave as a stand alone go-to application with native features.

At this time in the gestation of a new LightWave it probably seems a bit premature. And I would guess they they will continue on the current track to finish the ground work of integrating CORE tech into LightWave and after that look at developing for Fabric. Seems like doing it mid stream may cause a rewrite of the support for Fabric later which would be more work than necessary. Me just speculating. Don't know enough about the technical side of it.

hrgiger
06-26-2013, 11:23 AM
i just suggested to this to a lw developer who is looking to add a feature that i see fabric engine already has a s a part of its core creation tools. i just dont know what needs to happen to make this possible.

and i meant to say 3rd party developer not lw developer.

pooby
06-26-2013, 11:32 AM
https://vimeo.com/69163572

Forgot to mention that it's not only for 3d packages

FabricPaul
06-28-2013, 05:43 PM
we did Nuke today as well :) https://vimeo.com/69329048

Tobian
06-28-2013, 06:55 PM
Very impressive. How do you handle AA in such situations? Would it be by sub-pixel sampling in splice, or handled by the host app?

probiner
06-28-2013, 08:03 PM
The "portable" bit seems to be the code which is interpreted by the same core, and even that I'm not completely sure when it comes to an app feeds it. Seems to me also that it's application in an host app will be also case-by-case and will have to respect the limitations or orders of evaluation of the host app.

Anyway, this makes any host app have glass-box constructs like houdini, great. My only concern is that will have the same limitations as ICE, in its disconnect from the Render Tree and order of evaluations, like Geometry Approximation Subdivision. But that would probably too much.

Cheers

probiner
07-13-2013, 05:35 PM
New video. Rigging to a solver level... :O


http://vimeo.com/70201305

pooby
12-12-2013, 09:47 AM
http://documentation.fabric-engine.com/Splice/1.10.0/HTML/SpliceAPI/integrations.html#spliceintegration

in case anyone wants to have a go Hooking it up to LW

creacon
12-12-2013, 11:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that integration in LW will be the hardest of all the packages mentioned, but it seems to be doable.

creacon

lightscape
05-04-2015, 12:37 PM
I hope this is being considered as part of LW's future.

Hmmm...
http://fabricengine.com/fabric-engine-and-modo-collaboration/


https://vimeo.com/126747222

Thomas Helzle
05-04-2015, 01:14 PM
I'm currently beta testing Canvas, the new node-based version of FE.
I'm doing my first babysteps but also think this has huge potential for LW (which is now my main 3D-app again).

What already works very well is the import of Alembic in Lightwave, in fact, my first test was above alembic frog example imported into LW:
128115
The animated mesh as well as the animated camera came in perfectly, as did the UV map :-)

I personally wouldn't be able to implement a FE/Canvas connection into LW, so this made me quite happy as an initial way of getting Canvas-generated content in.

Having it fully integrated would catapult LW quite some steps forward IMO and make it much easier to integrate into a pipeline.
I hope the team is aware of this opportunity to connect to the future ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

pooby
05-04-2015, 03:55 PM
I'm currently beta testing Canvas, the new node-based version of FE.
I'm doing my first babysteps but also think this has huge potential for LW (which is now my main 3D-app again).

What already works very well is the import of Alembic in Lightwave, in fact, my first test was above alembic frog example imported into LW:
128115
The animated mesh as well as the animated camera came in perfectly, as did the UV map :-)

I personally wouldn't be able to implement a FE/Canvas connection into LW, so this made me quite happy as an initial way of getting Canvas-generated content in.

Having it fully integrated would catapult LW quite some steps forward IMO and make it much easier to integrate into a pipeline.
I hope the team is aware of this opportunity to connect to the future ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

Agreeed

http://fabricengine.com/2015/05/fabric-at-fmx-2015/

Fabric Canvas for Softimage,Maya, Max, Modo, C4D, Houdini and Unreal all are in various stages of development. I'd hate to see LW left behind.

lightscape
05-05-2015, 12:02 AM
I'd hate to see LW left behind.

way way behind.

lightscape
05-05-2015, 02:06 AM
Free for Individuals :D

http://fabricengine.com/fabric-software-signs-three-deals-and-introduces-new-pricing-model/

"Fabric Fifty – Studio Starter Pack

To facilitate the decision-making process and reduce the perceived risk of adopting a commercial solution, Fabric Software has introduced a new ‘studio starter pack’. The Fabric Fifty package includes 50 free permanent, floating licenses of Fabric Engine with support via the public mailing list. Pricing kicks in when a studio is ready to expand beyond 50 seats or wants access to the benefits of a site license, such as unlimited render nodes, production support/on-site services and early access to alpha/beta modules such as Horde, Fabric’s real-time crowd system. See http://fabricengine.com/fabric50 for more details.
Double Negative

The site license deal at Double Negative comes after several months of evaluation and could result in Fabric Engine being implemented across many elements of the pipeline. Double Negative CTO Graham Jack said: “Currently we are looking to use Fabric Engine to accelerate the rigging, skinning and display of animated characters. However, what’s really interesting to us is that, while we’re starting out looking at its use in a specific area, ultimately it is a framework that can be used across pretty much every tool in the pipeline. This means that as new architectures, libraries and file formats become available the impact of supporting them is removed from our developers.”
Psyop

Psyop decided to use Fabric Engine in their pipeline so that tools can be developed faster and ported to multiple environments. Psyop head of pipeline Tony Barbieri said: “Fabric Engine allows us to code in one environment and port to others without making changes – this frees up the R&D team to work on other tools. We also have a lot of artists who are not programmers so the visual programming feature of Fabric Engine has been a real draw.”

Psyop CTO Jean-Francois Panisset added: “Psyop is very excited to partner with Fabric Engine, allowing us to base all of our in house CG pipeline tool development on a robust and high performance platform.”
Blur Studio

Blur is looking to Fabric Engine to supplement the Maya workflow by creating and improving tools focused on character development. Blur Pipeline Supervisor Jeff Beeland said: “Our goal is to better our bid times in rigging, and improve the performance of our rigs for Animation. Even a modest improvement would result in a significant benefit to the studio, and we believe with Fabric Engine that we can do even better than that. The value of Fabric is obvious in rigging and animation, but we also expect it to bring improvements across multiple areas in the pipeline.”

lightscape
07-03-2015, 07:21 PM
Watch the awesomeness Newtek devs. You're missing out!

Copy pasting non-destructive escalator from Maya to Modo, awesomeness!

https://vimeo.com/132523439

robertoortiz
07-03-2015, 11:07 PM
I am confident that creation will become widely adopted over the next few years.
The benefit of having a centralised core that works in any package, or standalone, cannot be understated. It's a revolutionary concept. The idea that you could share deformers, rigs etc with maya, max or softimage users and visa versa, totally changes the game for everyone; and to some extent, levels the playing field as a future pipeline built around creation tools could 'almost' make the host package a matter of taste.
Imagine being able to make an auto rigger, and being able to sell that to every single cgi rigger in any package. This is a healthy opening up of the market, that would encourage a lot more innovation that would be available to everyone.
It is important to note that the fabric engine core is also a few orders of magnitude faster than any current dcc package, being cutting edge architecture that takes into consideration all the modern computing GPU and cpu multithreading capabilities that were not anticipated when, say Maya was conceived. So the advantage is not just in interchange and the abilities it gives the host package, but also a massive increase in processing speed.Wow..how difficult would it be for LW revs to implement this?

ianr
07-04-2015, 05:19 AM
HELLO HELLO HELLO LW3DG ..?

a small reply could be common manners.

but are we now beyond that ....

lightscape
07-04-2015, 07:59 AM
HELLO HELLO HELLO LW3DG ..?

a small reply could be common manners.

but are we now beyond that ....

Maybe they don't want copy paste capability from maya, 3dmax, modo, etc? :D
That escalator is mindblowing. Something i see only in houdini.

lightscape
07-09-2015, 10:47 PM
What is Fabric Engine?

https://vimeo.com/132732105

and

MPC, Fabric Software Unveil Fabric for Pixar’s RenderMan
http://www.awn.com/news/mpc-fabric-software-unveil-fabric-pixar-s-renderman

lightscape
07-09-2015, 10:49 PM
MPC, Fabric Software Unveil Fabric for Pixar’s RenderMan
http://www.awn.com/news/mpc-fabric-software-unveil-fabric-pixar-s-renderman[/QUOTE]



https://vimeo.com/132369259

creacon
07-10-2015, 05:47 AM
Funny how people who have probably never seen FPrime talk about "very interactive" while looking at very slow updates of the viewport. ;-)
Still if all of these separate modules come together through fabric, one could start to wonder what the function of the host app will be in the future.

creacon

lightscape
07-10-2015, 10:19 AM
Too bad lw won't see fabric engine anytime in the future. No interest from lw devs from the looks of it. But atleast they can see what they're missing in this thread. Without newtek handling the integration themselves fabric will never be viable in lw.

silviotoledo
07-10-2015, 06:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjL1RZ-Or_M MUSCLES

ianr
07-11-2015, 10:43 AM
Looks like W.I.P.

I wonder If (Craig) Rebel Hill has seen this?

The slip ( cross inflation) between muscles doesn't seem right

yet, but its interesting no doubt.

RebelHill
07-11-2015, 12:55 PM
yeah... seen it before.

bobakabob
07-12-2015, 02:52 PM
Hmmm, the muscles are jiggling like jello. Perhaps the exaggeration is deliberate to demonstrate the effect. If the controls were turned down it would probably look more subtle and realistic but it looks a bit like uncanny valley overkill. A variation of this effect seemed to be present in Jurassic World where the dinos in certain scenes were wobbling about a bit over enthusiastically. Got to say the CGI was impressive but I prefer Ray Harryhausen's more taut and tension filled creations... a sign of my age I guess.