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View Full Version : Hey, Hey, Adobe, I'm Not On Your Cloud!



paulk
06-09-2013, 08:05 PM
Now that Adobe's future is in the clouds, what do we do?

There's already a Thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135406-CNET-Adobe-kills-Creative-Suite-goes-subscription-only) for venting. I'd like to gather as many alternatives as we can think of.

For example, dpreview.com had an article 10 Photo Editing Programs (that aren't Photoshop) (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/17/10-photo-editing-programs)

What, if anything, are you planning to switch to? Or, maybe you've gotten along without Adobe for years and don't know what the fuss is about.

m.d.
06-09-2013, 09:46 PM
photoshop cs6 will be quite capable for years to come

Ernest
06-09-2013, 10:12 PM
Not planning to switch. Staying with CS6. I don't even know why I was even going to upgrade to CS7. It must have been just out of force of habit because really, I could probably do everything I do in CS2.

shrox
06-09-2013, 10:37 PM
The crowd ain't going with the cloud...

madno
06-09-2013, 11:49 PM
paulk,
here is a link to a post of robetoortiz who gathered a lot of CS alternatives already:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135406-CNET-Adobe-kills-Creative-Suite-goes-subscription-only&p=1321916&viewfull=1#post1321916

erikals
06-10-2013, 04:45 AM
PhotoLine is your best alternative atm, according to my tests >


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BfuwYmBfbU

Spinland
06-10-2013, 07:43 AM
photoshop cs6 will be quite capable for years to come

Quoted for enthusiastic agreement.

cresshead
06-10-2013, 09:44 AM
what's this Abobe thing?, note i've just come back from a short trip into the future of around 8 years..the Tardis isn't too accurate but Adobe isn't to be found anywhere in 2020..apparently they made a major mistake in 2013 so i've come back to find out what they did...looks like this 'creative cloud' might be the thing they messed up with...Hmm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/TARDIS2.jpg/220px-TARDIS2.jpg

hrgiger
06-15-2013, 06:06 AM
I don't see what the fuss is about.

paulk
06-15-2013, 08:32 AM
I don't see what the fuss is about.

When you buy software, you can use it forever without paying another dime or upgrading and it keeps on working. When you subscribe to software, it works as long as you keep on paying. If you stop paying, the software stops working.

Assuming Adobe doesn't revive selling software outright, what alternatives are out there?

COBRASoft
06-15-2013, 08:42 AM
hrgiger: I'm with ya.

Soon 'everything' will be 'always' connected. I think it won't cost much more for those people who're used to upgrade their software on a normal base. Also, what is the cost of all the people calling, mailing, nagging about bugs in v x.0 which is fixed in v x.1, x.5 or even y.0. Now, Adobe (and other companies) have to keep updating their older versions which cost time and money. so, from their point of view, this is the only way to go. Microsoft with Office 365 is doing the same thing, but they still offer to buy Office (for the moment).

glebe digital
06-15-2013, 12:59 PM
Owning is always better than renting. This cloud business bothered me enough before Mr Snowden, now of course . . . . . I ain't even touching it with yours.

Cageman
06-15-2013, 01:33 PM
There are large studios out there that does not allow internet connection on workstations. WETA is one of them, if I recall correctly. They even lock all unused USB-ports on the workstations.... Obviously, such a big studio will have alternative ways to deal with licenses from corporations such as Adobe. Private users though, might have a much tougher luck getting such treatment.

Even though my internet is fairly stable, there have been times when it has been down for a week. So... I rather pay for a software, install it and use it with a license key, without having to have a constant internet connection running.

What NewTek and some others are doing is far better, imho.

shrox
06-15-2013, 09:35 PM
...Soon 'everything' will be 'always' connected.....

The USA is not like Europe, there are wide stretches of country with no internet, no cell phone service, no cable etc. yet people still live in those areas. I live in an area that just fairly recently go high speed internet

Megalodon2.0
06-16-2013, 12:14 AM
I love the "bend over we gotta take it" viewpoint.

- or -

The "I don't see any problem with it" viewpoint.

If that's really true, then you simply have not paid attention and dismissing the SERIOUS concerns of others is quite sad. Allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper means to me that you get what you deserve.

COBRASoft
06-16-2013, 05:16 AM
Hey Shrox, I get that. My girlfriend is from Brazil where internet is even less distributed than the USA. This doesn't change the fact that internet is coming everywhere. some places earlier than others indeed. And yes, it will take probably more than 10 years for internet to arrive everywhere (unfortunately). But I do get why Adobe, Microsoft (and our own company) is making this shift. As a customer these intentions are not always clear and most always think only about earning more money. In our own case specifically, it is more about regular income than earning 'more' money.

Silkrooster
06-17-2013, 01:16 AM
There has been talk about increasing the broadband in the USA for quite awhile. I think it is down to the point of when the funds are approved for this expensive venture. If this does happen the price for subscribing should decrease. Microsoft is already enabling private computers to be ad hocs for the rest of the world. I disabled it on my system mainly due to a bug. But right now I don't see why others should access what I pay for, for free.

kopperdrake
06-17-2013, 01:36 AM
I also get why Adobe and suchlike are going this route.

Money.

Plain and simple.

The updates between each version can not justify the hefty price tags squeezed out of users. Users tend to jump a few updates, at least that's what I and others I know do.

With this new system, you pay to stay on the upgrade treadmill or lose the functionality of your software.

Pure greed - that's what it is. And as they have an almost monopoly on the creative workflow in some quarters, they feel their strength is enough to get away with this move.

Disgusting.

BigHache
06-17-2013, 05:48 AM
I have no problem with people making money. We all do it everyday when we work. For what I use from CS the only worthwhile update is After Effects. Photoshop doesn't have any real mind-blowing feature additions for me. Illustrator, which I frequently use, keeps having small things that I've relied upon for the past 10 years removed.

What I see as the CC is a consistent revenue stream for meh updates. If Adobe had been wowing us all along we'd probably voice less opposition.

hrgiger
06-17-2013, 02:52 PM
I love the "bend over we gotta take it" viewpoint.

- or -

The "I don't see any problem with it" viewpoint.

If that's really true, then you simply have not paid attention and dismissing the SERIOUS concerns of others is quite sad. Allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper means to me that you get what you deserve.

I see, so basically if its like you want it to be then there's no problem. But if its not that way, and even though it works better for someone else, then that person is just wrong. Sorry Megalodon, but the Adobe subscription service just works better for me then the standard licensed software versions. Maybe it won't always be that way, but for now it is. Am I not allowed to express my opinion and my satisfaction of the cloud service without it being "sad"?

Megalodon2.0
06-17-2013, 03:34 PM
I see, so basically if its like you want it to be then there's no problem. But if its not that way, and even though it works better for someone else, then that person is just wrong. Sorry Megalodon, but the Adobe subscription service just works better for me then the standard licensed software versions. Maybe it won't always be that way, but for now it is. Am I not allowed to express my opinion and my satisfaction of the cloud service without it being "sad"?

Perhaps you should re-read what *I* was responding to, which was:


I don't see what the fuss is about.

And I restate - if YOU don't see what the fuss is really all about... then (and I quote myself) "you simply have not paid attention and dismissing the SERIOUS concerns of others is quite sad. Allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper means to me that you get what you deserve."

I did not say that some people found value in it - i said that if you did not SEE where the fuss was, essentially you are ignoring the VAST numbers that DO "have a fuss with it."

bobakabob
06-17-2013, 04:30 PM
Adobe, along with other software companies have been ripped off by pirates for years so you can't blame them for devising a more secure licensing system. The problem is Adobe are using their monopoly in combination with new technology to restrict users' freedom of choice. It's limiting and feels uncomfortably like a form of coercion. Legal mumbo jumbo of licensing aside, you can now effectively only 'rent' and not 'buy' so the Cloud locks users into an expensive commitment which renders the software and many files useless if you terminate the link to your bank account. Is this really progress? My educational establishment is presently bartering with Adobe over yearly Cloud subscription rates which will drain valuable resources from students. How can this be a superior alternative to say, Newtek's model where you can skip upgrades and keep using older software if it meets your needs? I like Adobe's software but will avoid the Cloud as long as I can. Bottom line it's just ridiculously expensive.

CourtJester
06-17-2013, 04:43 PM
I also get why Adobe and suchlike are going this route.

Money.

Plain and simple.

Disgusting.

You mean Adobe didn't care about the money at all up until now?

Odd thing to do, for a for-profit corporation. I wonder if their shareholders know.

hrgiger
06-17-2013, 05:03 PM
And I restate - if YOU don't see what the fuss is really all about... then (and I quote myself) "you simply have not paid attention and dismissing the SERIOUS concerns of others is quite sad. Allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper means to me that you get what you deserve."

I did not say that some people found value in it - i said that if you did not SEE where the fuss was, essentially you are ignoring the VAST numbers that DO "have a fuss with it."

How can you say that I'm not paying attention and that I'm dismissing other peoples concerns and that I'm allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper and that I will get what I deserve but then say that some people find value in the service? I find the Adobe Cloud to be a viable alternative and as such I have subscribed. If you don't then don't subscribe. Its a vote with your dollars. If enough people shy away from the Adobe cloud then they will change it as obviously they want a successful business model. But stop telling others who find value in the service that they have their heads in the sand. Its not for them to care about how everyone else feels about it if it works for them.

Megalodon2.0
06-17-2013, 06:21 PM
How can you say that I'm not paying attention and that I'm dismissing other peoples concerns and that I'm allowing it to happen without so much as a whimper and that I will get what I deserve but then say that some people find value in the service? I find the Adobe Cloud to be a viable alternative and as such I have subscribed. If you don't then don't subscribe. Its a vote with your dollars. If enough people shy away from the Adobe cloud then they will change it as obviously they want a successful business model. But stop telling others who find value in the service that they have their heads in the sand. Its not for them to care about how everyone else feels about it if it works for them.

Oh Jesus... do you READ? YOU were the one who said "I don't see what the fuss is about." Do you or don't you?

If you do, then your statement "I don't see what the fuss is about" is inaccurate.

If you don't, then THAT was what I was responding to. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Edit. Also, you are (apparently) refusing to look at the long term where IF Adobe is successful, other software vendors may follow suit. If Adobe implodes, this will make ALL software providers think twice about offering a subscription-only model. It is in YOUR best self-interest - as well as everyone elses - to think about the potential pitfalls. The point is... it's not just about thinking about yourself, but the future and how it will affect others. Fortunately other people on other forums have mentioned the same sentiment.

Megalodon2.0
06-17-2013, 06:25 PM
Adobe, along with other software companies have been ripped off by pirates for years so you can't blame them for devising a more secure licensing system.
I don't think that you have you been following this. This is not secure AT ALL. Pirates have already cracked the CC code and it's available on some sites already. Using this software is NO DIFFERENT than using any CS version previously. It is installed on YOUR harddrive and run from YOUR harddrive. The ONLY thing different is that there is now code in the software that requires you to connect to the internet every 30 days for authenticity and that allows the program(s) to continue working for another 30 days. If the software cannot connect, apparently it CAN run for 180 days but after that it shuts down. Pirates will have ZERO problems cracking this software so it will not eliminate piracy AT ALL nor will it reduce it. All it does is hurt honest customers. Period.

speismonqui
06-17-2013, 06:34 PM
Hey Shrox, I get that. My girlfriend is from Brazil where internet is even less distributed than the USA. This doesn't change the fact that internet is coming everywhere. some places earlier than others indeed. And yes, it will take probably more than 10 years for internet to arrive everywhere (unfortunately). But I do get why Adobe, Microsoft (and our own company) is making this shift. As a customer these intentions are not always clear and most always think only about earning more money. In our own case specifically, it is more about regular income than earning 'more' money.

maybe less than 10 years, I saw this yesterday:
http://www.google.com/loon/

Skynet, sorry I mean Google is already at it.

hrgiger
06-17-2013, 06:57 PM
Oh Jesus... do you READ? YOU were the one who said "I don't see what the fuss is about." Do you or don't you?

If you do, then your statement "I don't see what the fuss is about" is inaccurate.

If you don't, then THAT was what I was responding to. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I think it is you who does not read. My statement about I don't see what the fuss is about was taken from the first post of the thread. Granted this was for someone who hasn't been following the developments with Adobe software but the point still stands. And my response is still I dont' see what the fuss is about. At least for me. I understand the issues with the Cloud and the fact that you do not own the software and can't use it after your subscription ends. I have no issues with that. You seem to think I should. I don't. So again I say, I don't see what the fuss is about. If you don't like the way the cloud works, then don't use it, complain about it, sign a petition, vote on a forum, whatever. But don't expect everyone to jump on the same bandwagon. Jesus.

Megalodon2.0
06-17-2013, 07:12 PM
But don't expect everyone to jump on the same bandwagon. Jesus.
Well in that case, if/when all software DOES go subscription because Adobe succeeded, you can pat yourself on the back knowing that you helped to make the move from owned software to rented. And yes, YOU will be partly responsible just as I am partly responsible for "voting with my wallet" FOR owned software and against renting it.

hrgiger
06-17-2013, 07:15 PM
Ok.

AbstractTech3D
06-17-2013, 08:58 PM
Adobe, along with other software companies have been ripped off by pirates for years ...

And paying users of both Adobe and MS have been ripped off with poor CS (useless Eastern call centres that have proven they can't handle the most basic licensing issues through my repeated experiences with them), and ridiculous prices outside the USA - and they bend over backwards to ensure technically that this is so!

Goodbye goodwill - Adobe.

Yes all they are after is your money - giving as little out as they can to get back as much as they can.

I used to pay for Adobe. I never intend to again.

……

The big question seems to be the alternative to AE.

I expect that an open source alternative will emerge. And such an alternative might kill off Avid in one go too. (I have less of a bug-bear with Avid).

Surely with the swell of public angst against Adobe, coupled with awareness of their monopoly - alternatives will arise. Including open source.

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2013, 12:28 AM
The big question seems to be the alternative to AE.

I expect that an open source alternative will emerge.
Although Hifilm2 is not there yet, I think it will be relatively soon - I would bet sooner than the last version of AE becomes obsolete.

It seems the developers are open to suggestions and they are quite a bit more... accessible than the likes of Adobe.

Medi8or
06-18-2013, 12:22 PM
I think it won't cost much more for those people who're used to upgrade their software on a normal base. Also, what is the cost of all the people calling, mailing, nagging about bugs in v x.0 which is fixed in v x.1, x.5 or even y.0. Now, Adobe (and other companies) have to keep updating their older versions which cost time and money. so, from their point of view, this is the only way to go. So CC should really cost less than CS then. Less work, and a steady income from ALL users, not just those who choose to upgrade to the latest version.
Why does it then cost 3 times as much per month? What is the great thing I'm apparently missing here? :question:

COBRASoft
06-18-2013, 04:33 PM
How do you get 3x more expensive per month? I remember the whole Adobe Suite costing thousands of euros, I can have the same products (and more) for € 61.45/month.

Medi8or
06-18-2013, 04:43 PM
How do you get 3x more expensive per month? I remember the whole Adobe Suite costing thousands of euros, I can have the same products (and more) for € 61.45/month.
Because you don't buy the full version every time, you buy upgrades.

kopperdrake
06-18-2013, 05:27 PM
There's a difference between making a decent profit for a decent product, and using your almost monopoly to dictate how often people should buy your product, whether they need a new version or not, less they step off your roundabout and render null and void the monies paid to date.

Let me put this another way. It's bloody greedy.

And if they really lose so much money from piracy then I assume the new system will be cheaper for all concerned as no one can pirate it?

And pigs will fly.

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Because you don't buy the full version every time, you buy upgrades.

And VERY often many do not buy EVERY upgrade. They first evaluate if the upgrade has enough worthwhile features - then they upgrade OR NOT. If you skip every other upgrade, it is FAR more expensive with subscription.

shrox
06-18-2013, 05:30 PM
And VERY often many do not buy EVERY upgrade. They first evaluate if the upgrade has enough worthwhile features - then they upgrade OR NOT. If you skip every other upgrade, it is FAR more expensive with subscription.

Yes.

hrgiger
06-18-2013, 05:56 PM
And VERY often many do not buy EVERY upgrade. They first evaluate if the upgrade has enough worthwhile features - then they upgrade OR NOT. If you skip every other upgrade, it is FAR more expensive with subscription.

I don't see how you figure that. For $50 a month (or $600 a year), I get the whole creative suite but specifically for me, it is for Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Flash, and Dreamweaver. I buy every upgrade of LW( or have historically) so I can't say whether I would want every upgrade of the Adobe software, how much would it cost me to upgrade each of those other softwares individually. Even if I skip an occasional upgrade, I'm willing to bet that it would still work out to more then $600 for all of those applications.

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2013, 06:44 PM
I don't see how you figure that. For $50 a month (or $600 a year), I get the whole creative suite but specifically for me, it is for Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects, Flash, and Dreamweaver. I buy every upgrade of LW( or have historically) so I can't say whether I would want every upgrade of the Adobe software, how much would it cost me to upgrade each of those other softwares individually. Even if I skip an occasional upgrade, I'm willing to bet that it would still work out to more then $600 for all of those applications.
Straw man argument.

We don't buy the individual programs, you buy the suite. Skipping every other upgrade - or more - it's less than subscription. PLUS, I could always sell the suite later to someone else. Take that into account as well - you can't do that with subscription.

Spinland
06-18-2013, 07:31 PM
Just trying to wrap my head around the economics of this by using the costs I've encountered....

I bought CS5 Production Premium as a student, so that cost isn't really relevant. When I bought the full commercial upgrade to CS6 Production Premium it cost me US$750. I skipped 5.5.

At the full CC price, ignoring that I can get the first year for $240 if i subscribed now, I'm looking at $600 a year for CC.

Let's say I would upgrade every other year: that's $375 versus $600. If I were to look at my actual first two years of CC, allowing for the first year discount, that's $840 versus $750 to buy CS8 (if I had that option), skipping CS7.

Okay, so financially, unless I planned to buy an annual upgrade to CS it seems that the perpetual license road would have been cheaper. If I insisted on upgrading every year, the CC would save me $150 a year not counting the first year discount which would save me an extra $360.

Another plus in the CC column: I'd get the complete suite, not just the subset in the Production Premium list. Buying the full CS costs more, I don't know the number.

A plus in the CS column: I already own it so if I'm happy with what I have I need never spend another dime.

In my case I've decided to keep CS6 for now and not jump on the $240 first year pricing. No sense in my mind to spend it. I do intend to watch how CC shapes up and if at some point the new features in the apps I use become compelling it will cost me less in the single year timeframe to cross over to CC than if I had upgraded a CS. Those features would have to be killer, because once I jumped I'd be committed.

hrgiger
06-18-2013, 07:50 PM
Straw man argument.

We don't buy the individual programs, you buy the suite. Skipping every other upgrade - or more - it's less than subscription. PLUS, I could always sell the suite later to someone else. Take that into account as well - you can't do that with subscription.

Except I would have never bought the suite at its full retail price. I would have only wanted Photoshop(which interestingly last time I checked is $600, the same price as my annual membership). I could replace Premiere fairly easier with a much cheaper program, there are a ton of free or cheap HTML editors I could use instead of Dreamweaver, After Effects I'm only picking up on now since the recent LW interchange and now that I have it at my disposal with Creative Cloud, why not? And by your arument, I would have to skip every other upgrade to win the financial advantage. Hands down its CC for me. I get continual updates so my software is always current and have access to the entire creative suite which I never would have owned otherwise and for the same or less then I pay for a utility bill each month.

COBRASoft
06-18-2013, 07:55 PM
^^ same here. The whole suite was too expensive for me to buy at once. Now I pay per month and get the whole thing. I see it as an extension to my internet/phone costs. This is also monthly and everybody is paying that, right? Damn, my internet and phone bill are both higher than whole the suite!

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2013, 08:07 PM
And I'm happy for both of you.

But you're still not saying anything about having ALL (or most) of your software as pay subscription only. My guess is that you don't want that, but getting your Adobe deal puts that to the back of your mind. As I said, you ARE aiding Adobe to succeed and in doing so not helping to send the message that owned software is better. You're thinking about the savings now, but in the long run it may come back top bite you in the butt. I use my software professionally and NEVER want to rent my software forever. Apparently many other professionals agree as well.

geo_n
06-18-2013, 08:31 PM
I wish AD would do it, too. I have no cash to put down 6kusd for 3dmax. But if its 50-60usd a month I would bite. Assuming they would not raise monthly to over 200usd a month its going to be years before I spend 6kusd.
Easy on the pocket plus the updates being on subscription looks like a fair deal especially considering the income potential for AD software, 50usd is negligible.

erikals
06-18-2013, 09:56 PM
I wish AD would do it, too. I have no cash to put down 6kusd for 3dmax. But if its 50-60usd a month I would bite. Assuming they would not raise monthly to over 200usd a month its going to be years before I spend 6kusd.
Easy on the pocket plus the updates being on subscription looks like a fair deal especially considering the income potential for AD software, 50usd is negligible.

that would be fantastic actually. i could just rent it for a month to do special effects, then throw it out the door again.

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2013, 11:44 PM
I wish AD would do it, too. I have no cash to put down 6kusd for 3dmax. But if its 50-60usd a month I would bite. Assuming they would not raise monthly to over 200usd a month its going to be years before I spend 6kusd.
Easy on the pocket plus the updates being on subscription looks like a fair deal especially considering the income potential for AD software, 50usd is negligible.

That would be fine - as long as they don't screw over their userbase by switching to ONLY subscription. Renting software for a short time is fine, renting FOREVER is bad for everyone regardless of initial savings.

hrgiger
06-19-2013, 01:21 AM
And I'm happy for both of you.

But you're still not saying anything about having ALL (or most) of your software as pay subscription only. My guess is that you don't want that, but getting your Adobe deal puts that to the back of your mind. As I said, you ARE aiding Adobe to succeed and in doing so not helping to send the message that owned software is better. You're thinking about the savings now, but in the long run it may come back top bite you in the butt. I use my software professionally and NEVER want to rent my software forever. Apparently many other professionals agree as well.

Except again, and I pointed it out before, I do not care one iota that I don't own the software. This is software that I never would have owned before anyway. But now I have full use of it. And if it ever gets to a price that I find unacceptable or they eliminate the plan altogether, I will find alternatives at that point but that is another day and I'm not going to worry about what might or might not happen.

And its perfectly fine that you are not ok with it. I won't try to convince you otherwise. Stop trying to convince us that it is just corporate evil and bad for everyone.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 03:03 AM
And its perfectly fine that you are not ok with it. I won't try to convince you otherwise. Stop trying to convince us that it is just corporate evil and bad for everyone.
So you won't mind renting most or all of your software?
You don't think that if Adobe were to fail that subscription-only software would be MUCH slower to take hold than if they succeeded?
You think that you'll be able to afford all of your software subscriptions? $5 here, $10 there, another $25 here... etc.?
Like I said, you are helping them to succeed and it will end up biting you and all of us in the butt. Lots of little drops in the bucket add up.

Skonk
06-19-2013, 03:28 AM
So what happens when the work drys up and you have no income to pay for the subscription, and then can't do any work to get some income because you can't use the software because you didn't pay for your subscription?

geo_n
06-19-2013, 03:43 AM
That would be fine - as long as they don't screw over their userbase by switching to ONLY subscription. Renting software for a short time is fine, renting FOREVER is bad for everyone regardless of initial savings.

But I won't live forever. Its ok for me not to own digital code on a cd or hdd. kidding :D
I don't agree in renting all software though. Only those that are almost industry standard and gives you the most income potential. If lux or newtek did it no way say bye bye userbase. Adobe made their move. Lets wait and see how well the software evolves.

hrgiger
06-19-2013, 06:44 AM
So you won't mind renting most or all of your software?
You don't think that if Adobe were to fail that subscription-only software would be MUCH slower to take hold than if they succeeded?
You think that you'll be able to afford all of your software subscriptions? $5 here, $10 there, another $25 here... etc.?
Like I said, you are helping them to succeed and it will end up biting you and all of us in the butt. Lots of little drops in the bucket add up.

honestly i would take each software package and decide if it would make sense to buy a subscription or not. its not like i use dozens of different software packages so your scenario of not being able to afford paying for multiple software packages im not to worried about.

also i think youre pushing this concern to the point of being paranoid. cloud based services are relatively new and the market will decide if they make sense for consumers. its not my concern to what is biting you or others "in the butt". the service makes sense for me right now and i will use what makes sense for me. if so many people are against it as you believe the the market will take care of itself and maybe adobe will do whatever means keeping as many customers as it can.

JonW
06-19-2013, 06:57 AM
I needed a demolition hammer for renovations. I decided to buy (Good quality brand) one instead of renting. I could take my time doing the job properly & I have a tool that will last my lifetime for any other jobs that need doing. If I only need it for 10 minutes for 1 or 2 months a year, I don't have to fork out any more money, & it's actually paid for itself anyway!

Spinland
06-19-2013, 07:10 AM
So what happens when the work drys up and you have no income to pay for the subscription, and then can't do any work to get some income because you can't use the software because you didn't pay for your subscription?

I'm not an apologist for Adobe--in fact, I'm not a huge fan of the CC-only decision and as I stated it'll be a year or two at least before I even reconsider moving to it.

That being said, just putting on my problem-solving hat and trying to brainstorm ideas related to your very valid question, I'm not 100% convinced it's a highly likely scenario. If the CC suite were critical to my workflow I'd budget an annual renewal as first priority when I did get a gig. At the expected rates of return for animation work I believe one gig a year, even a modest one, should be able to cover that (assuming Adobe doesn't start jacking up the rate). In times of extreme financial distress, there are always less-than-ideal but doable measures like putting the fee on a credit card against better times, or even disabling your work machine's internet connection after canceling, giving you 99 days of emergency time in which to come up with at least a month's rent.

No, being in the straits you cite is not good at all, and there are no really good answers, but being that strapped is going to be a big problem all around, and there are at least some emergency workarounds (or so it seems to me).

COBRASoft
06-19-2013, 08:21 AM
As a matter of fact, I pay Microsoft for Office365 (monthly), Azure (monthly) and MSDN (yearly) as well. so, doing the same for Adobe is only a logical step in 'my' mind. I agree that both options (rent and buy) are the most ideal situation around the world, but I'm afraid 'buying' software is slipping away for good.

VonBon
06-19-2013, 11:36 AM
from cracking software to hacking servers 8/

I wonder what the impact would be if the Adobe's
cloud servers were shut down mysteriously :devil:

pinkmouse
06-19-2013, 12:09 PM
Adobe announcement:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/adobe_q2_customers_disappointed_with_no_boxed_ware s/

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 02:00 PM
honestly i would take each software package and decide if it would make sense to buy a subscription or not. its not like i use dozens of different software packages so your scenario of not being able to afford paying for multiple software packages im not to worried about.

also i think youre pushing this concern to the point of being paranoid. cloud based services are relatively new and the market will decide if they make sense for consumers. its not my concern to what is biting you or others "in the butt". the service makes sense for me right now and i will use what makes sense for me. if so many people are against it as you believe the the market will take care of itself and maybe adobe will do whatever means keeping as many customers as it can.

What's that saying? "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to kill me."

I don't know how much software you use on a daily basis, but I use quite a bit. For me, I cannot imagine paying a couple of hundred dollars a month for software I will never own and if something happens I would be screwed out of using that software. To me it seems very short-sighted since I can see many software companies that "fight" to get people to upgrade seeing the Adobe subscription model and perfect. I doubt this would happen soon, but if Adobe succeeds it will happen much faster.


I'm not an apologist for Adobe--in fact, I'm not a huge fan of the CC-only decision and as I stated it'll be a year or two at least before I even reconsider moving to it.

That being said, just putting on my problem-solving hat and trying to brainstorm ideas related to your very valid question, I'm not 100% convinced it's a highly likely scenario. If the CC suite were critical to my workflow I'd budget an annual renewal as first priority when I did get a gig. At the expected rates of return for animation work I believe one gig a year, even a modest one, should be able to cover that (assuming Adobe doesn't start jacking up the rate). In times of extreme financial distress, there are always less-than-ideal but doable measures like putting the fee on a credit card against better times, or even disabling your work machine's internet connection after canceling, giving you 99 days of emergency time in which to come up with at least a month's rent.

No, being in the straits you cite is not good at all, and there are no really good answers, but being that strapped is going to be a big problem all around, and there are at least some emergency workarounds (or so it seems to me).
Not a likely scenario? We just went through the "Great Recession." The new "laws" in place do nothing to stop the exact same thing from happening again since they are so weak and ineffective. Something like that WILL happen again and probably far sooner than any average person expects. WE lost 95% of our business and if we had to pay $50 a month for work that we could only bill maybe $75 or $100 for would be stupid - especially when we could have OWNED the software and not even had to worry about renting. IMO is IS a viable possibility and one everyone should keep in mind. And as I've said above and before, what if MORE of your software was rent-only and this happened? Adobe wins, this WILL happen faster than you think. Adobe loses, and it will happen much slower.

Do we REALLY want corporate America to OWN us? They want us to RENT their "services" but ultimately they will OWN us. This is the route we are willing to take for cheaper software initially? And please don't tell me "there's nothing we can do about it" because there is - don't buy into it. Simple.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 02:07 PM
Adobe announcement:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/adobe_q2_customers_disappointed_with_no_boxed_ware s/

Unfortunately that really says nothing new. In their report to shareholders, they expected revenue drops in 2013 and 2014 and then beginning to increase in 2015. They are fully expecting to ride this out since they have still not announced their "tweaking" solution - and I expect them to take allot more time to make ANY announcement. For those of us who don't like this, they are waiting us out and hoping that they continue to acquire CC customers. They will continue to provide "super sales" and lower pricing JUST to get you into CC. Once they have the number that they've decided on, discounts will slowly dry up and price will slowly increase. They will have you and all of your work TIED to their rented software and they will know it would take a huge effort and cost to move out of CC and onto competitors software. The writing is on the wall - but which side of the wall are you going to stand on?

snsmoore
06-19-2013, 03:01 PM
It is definitely more risky to go CC.

1) Your data is married to the subscription. Without the subscription your data is useless. (The faq says, "If you cancel or downgrade your paid membership, you'll still have access to all of the files in the Creative Cloud folder on your computer and via the Creative Cloud website" So it sounds like, you would be able to access your files, but not actually be able to use them in the Adobe product. These would just consume disk space.)

2) Once you go to CC, it's more painful to switch to another application. You won't have the option to access old data if you need to refer to something, unless the new software has solid import functions. (there have been times I've needed to load a file into a previously used app to prepare it correctly for the new app - i.e. save it into a different file format) With CC, you've gotta keep your subscription running as long as you are converting data.

3) You won't have the choice to reject the company pricing if it increases. (With non-CC options, you can choose to not upgrade and just keep on working. With CC you'll have to scramble to switch to something else or stop working.)

-shawn

50one
06-19-2013, 03:14 PM
Anyone knows if it's still possible to upgrade to CS6? Got CS5 @ work, but not sure if it's possible to upgrade to physical media rather than Cloud sub?

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Anyone knows if it's still possible to upgrade to CS6? Got CS5 @ work, but not sure if it's possible to upgrade to physical media rather than Cloud sub?

I don't know if you can buy a PHYSICAL copy, but Adobe says you can still buy CS6. It may be download only though.

50one
06-19-2013, 03:26 PM
Gonna check tomorrow. Cloud my *** Adobe.

paulk
06-19-2013, 04:10 PM
Well, this has been productive.:grumpy:

I was hoping to find out about alternatives to Adobe's CC instead of starting a bitchfest. So far, the alternative are:


Stick with CS N/upgrade to CS 6, going no further.
Photoline
HiFilm2


C'mon people, we can do better than that, can't we?

50one
06-19-2013, 04:24 PM
Well, this has been productive.:grumpy:

I was hoping to find out about alternatives to Adobe's CC instead of starting a bitchfest. So far, the alternative are:


Stick with CS N/upgrade to CS 6, going no further.
Photoline
HiFilm2


C'mon people, we can do better than that, can't we?


Unfortunatelly, for me there's no real alternatives, just some half-arsed solution, true you can edit in Lightworks, edit the graphic in photoline and your vectors in Xara whic I use, but nothing will give you theinteroparability tha Adobe Suite offers.

Spinland
06-19-2013, 05:02 PM
Anyone knows if it's still possible to upgrade to CS6? Got CS5 @ work, but not sure if it's possible to upgrade to physical media rather than Cloud sub?

http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesu ite6.html

When you click "buy" you get the option to choose the upgrade pricing.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 05:37 PM
Well, this has been productive.:grumpy:

I was hoping to find out about alternatives to Adobe's CC instead of starting a bitchfest. So far, the alternative are:


Stick with CS N/upgrade to CS 6, going no further.
Photoline
HiFilm2


C'mon people, we can do better than that, can't we?

Maybe you should check out the previous thread about this that was started before this thread:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?135406-CNET-Adobe-kills-Creative-Suite-goes-subscription-only

Check out posts 115, 179, 222 - Roberto has compiled a nice list of the competition - and it's been there for a while. There are probably more updates further along in the thread.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 05:39 PM
Unfortunatelly, for me there's no real alternatives, just some half-arsed solution, true you can edit in Lightworks, edit the graphic in photoline and your vectors in Xara whic I use, but nothing will give you theinteroparability tha Adobe Suite offers.

Yup, that's part of the problem/reason why people are so upset with CC only. Adobe is so ingrained in various workflows that to move would be a VERY difficult proposition. For me it would be annoying, but not impossible or overly difficult. I am just against the whole idea of rented software for productivity and the precedent it will set IF they succeed.

hrgiger
06-19-2013, 05:56 PM
Damn, one of my friends works for Adobe and he told me he could have gifted me a year of CC for $10 a month. Well as soon as my current subscription is up, looks like I will be paying a lot less. Nice.

COBRASoft
06-19-2013, 06:08 PM
^^ now you're just showing off :D! But you're right, go get it and enjoy the benefit. I wonder what most people would do if Adobe decides to sell their software again, but at a doubled price. Simply 'forcing' people to go CC or search other horizons. We live in a changing world, always connected is the business plan of Google, Microsoft, Samsung and others. Again, it will take many years, but it will come and faster than most think.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 06:29 PM
^^ now you're just showing off :D! But you're right, go get it and enjoy the benefit. I wonder what most people would do if Adobe decides to sell their software again, but at a doubled price. Simply 'forcing' people to go CC or search other horizons. We live in a changing world, always connected is the business plan of Google, Microsoft, Samsung and others. Again, it will take many years, but it will come and faster than most think.

And even faster when people sign up now. And when they have you by the throat, they'll slowly squeeze more and more $ out of you. And since no other programs will be able to open your files - which I'm sure Adobe will make sure of - you'll be renting forever. Of course that's fine by me. :)

As for selling perpetual licenses at double the price... still better to have the choice and many would still buy it. I would. But they won't do that unless they positively have to - that would mean that "the cloud" would not be doing very well at all. My fingers are crossed. ;)

hrgiger
06-19-2013, 06:59 PM
Their cloud numbers are growing. I think they're pretty happy with the response. They just reached 700,000 subscribers which is ahead of their goal. They expect to have 1.25 million by years end.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 07:49 PM
Their cloud numbers are growing. I think they're pretty happy with the response. They just reached 700,000 subscribers which is ahead of their goal. They expect to have 1.25 million by years end.

Out of MANY millions of CS suites sold. That number - 700k - is not huge by any stretch. We'll see how it goes. Of course if they lower the price and offer 3-year deals, I'm sure they'll get more. And as I said in the post above, it won't be until they feel they got enough people secured will they start removing the deals and slowly increasing the price. And by then they will have enough people locked in to their proprietary formats that most people will simply continue to pay their rent to Adobe. It's going to be an interesting few years ahead. Fortunately I won't be participating by using Adobe CC products.

DrStrik9
06-19-2013, 08:09 PM
It is definitely more risky to go CC.

1) Your data is married to the subscription. Without the subscription your data is useless. (The faq says, "If you cancel or downgrade your paid membership, you'll still have access to all of the files in the Creative Cloud folder on your computer and via the Creative Cloud website" So it sounds like, you would be able to access your files, but not actually be able to use them in the Adobe product. These would just consume disk space.)

Well, this isn't quite true. I subscribed to CC and did some tests. I have a perpetual license for CS5 (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign). In the Cloud CS6 version, and even in the new "CC" version, I can open those files in corresponding CS5 versions. Sometimes things are on one layer instead of several, but if you know your way around CS5, it's NO problem to fix.

Just thought I'd clarify that for everyone.

Megalodon2.0
06-19-2013, 09:20 PM
Well, this isn't quite true. I subscribed to CC and did some tests. I have a perpetual license for CS5 (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign). In the Cloud CS6 version, and even in the new "CC" version, I can open those files in corresponding CS5 versions. Sometimes things are on one layer instead of several, but if you know your way around CS5, it's NO problem to fix.

Just thought I'd clarify that for everyone.
Some people have done tests with the new CC features in Photoshop and THOSE features do not translate backwards to CS6. And this is JUST the beginning. How do you suppose those file formats will fare a couple of years down the road? New features introduced that won't open in CS6 - and this is for ALL of the programs such as InDesign, After Effects, Premiere, etc.

I think your simple testing will may be fine for now, but taking the long run into consideration, I'd agree with the post that you quoted - It's definitely risky to go with CC.

Megalodon2.0
06-20-2013, 12:17 AM
Pirated in one day:

http://fstoppers.com/adobe-photoshop-cc-has-already-been-pirated-in-just-one-day

DrStrik9
06-20-2013, 12:52 AM
Some people have done tests with the new CC features in Photoshop and THOSE features do not translate backwards to CS6.

When has a new FEATURE ever been translated backwards to a previous version of ANY software? The RESULTS of a new feature (created in Photoshop CC, for instance) translates just fine back to CS5.

I couldn't test After Effects, Premier, etc., against CS5 because I didn't own all those other apps in CS5. Now I use as many of them as I want, whenever I want.

I choose to not live in fear of the future. In my opinion, whatever risk there may be in using any particular software package is outweighed by the everyday risk of getting hit by a bus or contracting cancer, or any number of other ways to die, tomorrow, next week, next year. Over the years, I've purchased virtually every design app that was ever invented, because I needed to know which tools were the best. Today I use only a few, and most of the ones I bought and tried back in the day exist no longer. That's just the way of things. I just can't get all upset because of the way one of the app suppliers chooses to package and sell their products. If it works for me and it fits my needs, I'm in. If not, then I'm out and onto something better for my needs.

Regarding the future, Samuel Clemens once said, "My life has been a long series of disastrous events ... most of which never actually happened." :-)

- - - Updated - - -


Pirated in one day:

http://fstoppers.com/adobe-photoshop-cc-has-already-been-pirated-in-just-one-day

Wow.

hrgiger
06-20-2013, 06:11 AM
Out of MANY millions of CS suites sold. That number - 700k - is not huge by any stretch. We'll see how it goes. Of course if they lower the price and offer 3-year deals, I'm sure they'll get more. And as I said in the post above, it won't be until they feel they got enough people secured will they start removing the deals and slowly increasing the price. And by then they will have enough people locked in to their proprietary formats that most people will simply continue to pay their rent to Adobe. It's going to be an interesting few years ahead. Fortunately I won't be participating by using Adobe CC products.

Thing is, they're growing their market. A lot of new people are subscribing, people who wouldn't have otherwise bought the software for a few thousand dollars will now buy a subscription for a reasonable monthly amount. People like me for instance. Yes, a lot of current users are upset at the idea of subscription only software but Adobe is still working at finding a reasonable compromise for those users. Whether they will be successful or not is anyones's guess but in the meantime, they're cloud numbers are growing. Faster then they even epxected.

mike_stening
06-20-2013, 09:59 AM
I'm not in for the CC stuff but at work i don't have the say in what happens and i guess most medium to large businesses will jump on.
alternatives? GIMP, which is open source and looks and works pretty much the same as photoshop. It also has the nifty feature of being able to open up the overly large pSDs that lightwave creates when you export render buffers in one file (which can easily go over 2GB and photoshop doesn't like that)

Megalodon2.0
06-20-2013, 06:20 PM
Thing is, they're growing their market. A lot of new people are subscribing, people who wouldn't have otherwise bought the software for a few thousand dollars will now buy a subscription for a reasonable monthly amount. People like me for instance. Yes, a lot of current users are upset at the idea of subscription only software but Adobe is still working at finding a reasonable compromise for those users. Whether they will be successful or not is anyones's guess but in the meantime, they're cloud numbers are growing. Faster then they even epxected.

Well you have to figure that most of their subscribers were acquired BEFORE they made their announcement to discontinue perpetual licenses. You have to think that many of them figured that if they went on subscription for a few years and wanted to stop they could always buy the perpetual license and continue opening their files. Even Adobe evangelist Scott Kirby said in a blog in April '12 that people did not HAVE to subscribe but could still buy the boxed versions. And then Adobe dropped their bomb. No more perpetual licenses. According to Adobe they have sold MILLIONS of CS6 suites so the number of subscribers is FAR below those who bought boxed versions. Time will tell if subscription will truly make them more money or if enough people choose to boycott Adobe and either wait them out - which we can easily do for several years - or buy from a competitor.

And yes, Adobe SAYS they are working to find a reasonable solution. But you have to ask yourself, if they were prepared for such a tremendous backlash, would they not have had an answer already ready to go? And if they did NOT expect this huge backlash, then maybe those of us who ARE against this have something here. Regardless, I expect Adobe will procrastinate and either NOT say anything for a long time, or offer something useless like "one month of subscription FREE after you've stopped your subscription." Either way, it will most likely fall WAY short of placating our worries and concerns.

As I said, it's going to be an interesting next couple of years.

hrgiger
06-20-2013, 06:32 PM
And yes, Adobe SAYS they are working to find a reasonable solution. But you have to ask yourself, if they were prepared for such a tremendous backlash, would they not have had an answer already ready to go? And if they did NOT expect this huge backlash, then maybe those of us who ARE against this have something here. Regardless, I expect Adobe will procrastinate and either NOT say anything for a long time, or offer something useless like "one month of subscription FREE after you've stopped your subscription." Either way, it will most likely fall WAY short of placating our worries and concerns.



To this I would just say look at Microsoft. Apparently they weren't ready for the tremendous backlash over their restrictive XBox policies and because of the all they received over it, they've backtracked and have removed the game check in and game sharing restrictions. If Adobe receives enough flak, maybe they will do the same. But as I said, it appears that their CC numbers are still growing, and after they have said its going to be Cloud only. Right now I don't see them backing down too much unless those numbers started slipping backwards. Either way, I think it will be a long road for those who have a problem with this new plan on Adobe's part.

Megalodon2.0
06-20-2013, 06:59 PM
But as I said, it appears that their CC numbers are still growing, and after they have said its going to be Cloud only. Right now I don't see them backing down too much unless those numbers started slipping backwards. Either way, I think it will be a long road for those who have a problem with this new plan on Adobe's part.

I agree. I think it will take quite some time and their numbers will have to slip drastically in the near term to have ANY impact in the near term. Otherwise they will stick with CC and wait till 2015 when they expect their numbers will begin to improve. At least I know I will NOT be helping their numbers to improve. I WILL help the Hitfilm developers and Xara when the time comes. In fact because Adobe crapped on many of their longtime users - like me - I doubt I will support them even if they do reverse course. I've heard similar sentiments on other blogs and forums as well. Personally I'd love to see Adobe go the way of Quark - still there, but knocked down quite a few notches. It will probably be the only way to remove their board and bring them some humility. :)

toby
06-20-2013, 07:44 PM
<Reminder> Big business is about one thing - and it's not customer satisfaction. Customer satisfaction is just one of many tools towards the end goal, higher and higher profits. Getting you to pay more for less in return is another tool. There's also no limit to what they'll do towards the goal, as that would be a voluntary limit on profit.

What CC does is remove a lot of the incentive for Adobe to release an attractive product in the future. There's no question the subscribers will be buying the next upgrade, regardless of how tepid it is ( think they had a monopoly before? ). That will then require fewer and less talented programmers = more profit. If you disagree, read the reminder again.

I hope those few of you that benefit from it in the short run can someday appreciate that it's still disgusting to screw so many customers by removing their choice, to do the opposite of improving the product, for bigger profits, as they have just done. It's the equivalent of making you use your credit card for the purchase, then not letting you pay it off, to get all the interest.

Megalodon2.0
06-20-2013, 07:57 PM
<Reminder> Big business is about one thing - and it's not customer satisfaction. Customer satisfaction is just one of many tools towards the end goal, higher and higher profits. Getting you to pay more for less in return is another tool. There's also no limit to what they'll do towards the goal, as that would be a voluntary limit on profit.

What CC does is remove a lot of the incentive for Adobe to release an attractive product in the future. There's no question the subscribers will be buying the next upgrade, regardless of how tepid it is ( think they had a monopoly before? ). That will then require fewer and less talented programmers = more profit. If you disagree, read the reminder again.

I hope those few of you that benefit from it in the short run can someday appreciate that it's still disgusting to screw so many customers by removing their choice, to do the opposite of improving the product, for bigger profits, as they have just done. It's the equivalent of making you use your credit card for the purchase, then not letting you pay it off, to get all the interest.

I could not agree with you more! :thumbsup:

This exact point has been raised on countless other forums as well. In fact many Photoshop pros are laughing at the modest "upgrade" that is CS7 disguised as CC. And THIS is the beginning of "the cloud." They truly have VERY little incentive to seriously upgrade these programs as they did in the past when they had to prove to customers that the upgrade was worth spending money on. Obviously it's been getting more and more difficult over the years, so they came up with "subscription." Now you will HAVE to keep paying them JUST to open YOUR files even if they improve the software very little. While this is similar to what Autodesk (and others) do for software - maintenance - the program does not stop working if you cease maintenance.

Riff_Masteroff
06-24-2013, 06:51 AM
My Words: Adobe's profits (fiscal second quarter) increase.

As reported by The Washington Post newspaper (print edition, Monday 06/24): "Cloud Computing: Adobe profits from shift to Web". " . . . . . profit that exceeded analysts estimates as subscribers signed up for CC services at a faster clip." "Chief executive Shantanu Marayen is in the midst of a drive to sell more of Adobe's design tools as a subscription service via the Web."

Note: Actually this was reported by Bloomberg News and that report was picked-up and printed by the Washington Post

IMO: Happy Campers are most everyone

Riff_Masteroff
06-24-2013, 07:18 AM
While enjoying your subscription

The Boat Goes to the Bottom (Zap Mama):

"The boat goes to the bottom. But they don't care. And nobody reacts, the captain shouts . . . sinking like a stone . .Standing in the middle of the boat."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Lpnag6oUE

cresshead
06-24-2013, 08:39 AM
for UK abobe users, last chance to save money by renting for 24 months in advance!

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=95c1e00260b3685c3c19ef206&id=ef2cdaff73&e=d0d9d95fd1

Rayek
06-24-2013, 03:26 PM
I am now completely Adobe software free since a couple of months. Very happy, and I will never ever look back again. Luckily enough I do have the luxury in my work to not have to rely on Adobe products. For others it may be impossible to do this, though.

On a side note, I am quite baffled by the number of CC issues reported on Adobe's forums. They vary from installation problems to all sorts of bugs and what not. Even taking in account the large user base, still note-worthy.

bobakabob
06-24-2013, 03:49 PM
What motivation do Adobe have to develop the software? Users will be renting just to ensure they can open the files on their hard drive! This definitely is a step backward for the consumer.

hrgiger
06-24-2013, 03:52 PM
On a side note, I am quite baffled by the number of CC issues reported on Adobe's forums. They vary from installation problems to all sorts of bugs and what not. Even taking in account the large user base, still note-worthy.

Like what kind of issues, do you remember? I have been on CC for 4 or 5 months now with 0 issues. Just makes me wonder if its people who are not happy about CC complaining to make it seem like there are numerous problems.

Rayek
06-24-2013, 04:16 PM
Like what kind of issues, do you remember? I have been on CC for 4 or 5 months now with 0 issues. Just makes me wonder if its people who are not happy about CC complaining to make it seem like there are numerous problems.

I was just browsing through the Adobe forums for Photoshop, InDesign, and so on. And you are correct in that we have to be careful not allowing our emotional negativity to exaggerate. CS6 works fine on my system as well.

Megalodon2.0
06-24-2013, 04:39 PM
I was just browsing through the Adobe forums for Photoshop, InDesign, and so on. And you are correct in that we have to be careful not allowing our emotional negativity to exaggerate. CS6 works fine on my system as well.
There's nothing wrong with CS6. But when you start using the new features of CC, some of them are not compatible with CS6. And as more new features are added in the years to come, the divergence will increase and within a couple of years files created on CC will simply not be backward compatible. So ultimately people who want to keep using Adobe products will either be forced to RENT the software or choose other alternatives. Those of us AGAINST only CC are not against CC, but the removal of choice. Some here want to rent their software, others want to continue to buy. If they retain BOTH methods, I would have no problems with Adobe at all.

Rayek
06-24-2013, 05:13 PM
There's nothing wrong with CS6. But when you start using the new features of CC, some of them are not compatible with CS6. And as more new features are added in the years to come, the divergence will increase and within a couple of years files created on CC will simply not be backward compatible. So ultimately people who want to keep using Adobe products will either be forced to RENT the software or choose other alternatives. Those of us AGAINST only CC are not against CC, but the removal of choice. Some here want to rent their software, others want to continue to buy. If they retain BOTH methods, I would have no problems with Adobe at all.

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. Subscription only is a deal breaker for me as well - hence, I stopped using Adobe products since some time ago. People seem to feel there are no viable professional alternatives to Adobe software, and they are mistaken.

hrgiger
06-24-2013, 06:00 PM
Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. Subscription only is a deal breaker for me as well - hence, I stopped using Adobe products since some time ago. People seem to feel there are no viable professional alternatives to Adobe software, and they are mistaken.

The only thing I would say is that I don't get the sense that people don't feel there are alternatives. Its just like one of the (several) reasons I haven't switched to another app from LightWave and that is familiarity. There's a certain amount of time loss while you're getting up to speed in a new application. I'm well aware that there are many 3D alternatives.

Megalodon2.0
06-24-2013, 06:42 PM
Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. Subscription only is a deal breaker for me as well - hence, I stopped using Adobe products since some time ago. People seem to feel there are no viable professional alternatives to Adobe software, and they are mistaken.

I agree. There are MANY other programs that can compete with Adobe products. And chances are I will not be upgrading my Adobe products EVEN IF they reverse course - simply because I can no longer trust them. I would have done the same with Lightwave, but I enjoy it too much and it is FAR more pervasive in my workflow than ANY Adobe product. For me, I like Xara for Photoshop and Illustrator alternatives and Hitfilm2 for After Effects. InDesign is more problematic, but I can use CS5.5 for a LONG time and I hardly even use a fraction of its power.

COBRASoft
06-24-2013, 07:21 PM
I use PagePlus instead of InDesign and I've been a long PageStream guy before PagePlus.

Megalodon2.0
06-24-2013, 11:47 PM
I use PagePlus instead of InDesign and I've been a long PageStream guy before PagePlus.

I like InDesign because it can make e-publishing relatively painless.

Do you know how good PagePlus is in this area? I'm all for changing. Of course I'll probably continue to use InDesign for quite some time since I've heard the CS6 version has some problems and users have reverted back to CS5.5. But... it is VERY good to have a fallback plan. ;)

geo_n
06-25-2013, 12:55 AM
Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. Subscription only is a deal breaker for me as well - hence, I stopped using Adobe products since some time ago. People seem to feel there are no viable professional alternatives to Adobe software, and they are mistaken.

Probably its not a problem of finding alternatives but finding alternatives that come close to how adobe is used as standard software. I could probably switch to vegas, gimp and hitfilm personally, but this would limit my projects to those that don't require file format compatibilty. This would be a big trade off if I went ahead with it. Probably lose more than 50% of income.

Rayek
06-25-2013, 01:12 AM
Probably its not a problem of finding alternatives but finding alternatives that come close to how adobe is used as standard software. I could probably switch to vegas, gimp and hitfilm personally, but this would limit my projects to those that don't require file format compatibilty. This would be a big trade off if I went ahead with it. Probably lose more than 50% of income.

True enough - whether we like it or not, Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator and After Effects are industry standards, and dealing with clients without those available will be quite hard depending on your field of work.

In web dev and web design, video editing, and 3d work it's not that much of a problem in my experience, if at all. In graphic design and motion graphics related work, however, things do not look too rosy currently.

COBRASoft
06-25-2013, 03:45 AM
I have PagePlus X6 and X7 is just released with better e-publishing. You can always downlaod their trial edition and see for yourself how it goes. I had lots of problems with InDesign (coming from PageStream back in the time). So, I switched to PagePlus and never looked back.

rwhunt99
06-25-2013, 07:47 AM
At the end of the day, it is the work you create that is important. Most good applications will work with the common formats, so you might have to invest some time in finding an alternative to what you were used to. I'm just a hobbyist and I can't afford to pay for a monthly subscription for a piece of software like Photoshop It is generally way too much software for what I need anyway just for basic color gradation and image adjustments. I have (I believe it's the web design) suite Cs4 and AE Cs5.5, I will not go any further with those and I use Corel Paintshop Pro (much cheaper but slower) for some of the newer features that Photoshop Cs4 doesn't have, but other than that, I will save my money for updates to Lightwave. I'm retired now so I don't have the extra cash I used to have for keeping up with all the software products I use and I am not about to start pirating, I will go without before I ever do that.

PabloMack
08-14-2013, 02:18 PM
Now that Adobe's future is in the clouds, what do we do?

The Rolling Stones took the words right out of my mouth. "Hey! Hey! You! You! Get off of my cloud!"
I've never gotten very dependent on Adobe for anything. Their software has such poor performance and it worms its way into my operating system functions. To this day, I have a lop top that runs Photo Shop and After Effects. When I put a thumb drive into the system, it always has a minute delay before the Adobe software allows the Microsoft File manager to come up. I know it is Adobe because once I uninstalled it and the bad behavior immediately went away until I reinstalled it again. So both Adobe and Autodesk are on my avoid list.

erikals
08-14-2013, 02:53 PM
there's a lot of junk in Adobe products for sure (just look at the program size)
i've never had much problem with the speed, even though it could have been faster at times, but it's bad when that stuff happens.

PhotoShop > 520 MegaByte...
PhotoLine > 52 MegaByte...

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/aiwebs_029.gif

shrox
08-14-2013, 03:06 PM
The Rolling Stones took the words right out of my mouth. "Hey! Hey! You! You! Get off of my cloud!"...

I'll extend the analogy to Star Trek with this...

116386


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BsaGiFrGU

"Make art with your bare hands Captain!"

erikals
08-14-2013, 03:15 PM
before it was real, now, it is hyper-real...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/eek.gif

it's fun doing that stuff, remember i did it on The Thing http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


(you will not watch The Thing 1981 tonight) http://www.i-mockery.com/forum/images/mockery/emoticons/hypnotized.gif (yes you will...)

safetyman
08-15-2013, 05:24 AM
In our work, we sometimes have to go back 5-10 years and retrieve illustrator files. Say we moved to this CC thing for a year or two, then decided that we weren't paying Adobe another dime. Without their cloud hanging over our heads (see what I did there?), we wouldn't be able to open our old files, correct? Assuming we didn't have an old version of Illy laying around, we'd be screwed.

erikals
08-15-2013, 06:10 AM
Yep. Illustrator files are very specific, most info will be lost if you open it in another app.

PhotoShop files can be opened in other apps like PhotoLine though,
but at times you'll loose PS specific info.

VIDandCGI
08-15-2013, 08:17 AM
Sticking with Adobe CC here tbh, its nice and pink and fluffy on the cloud :) comes with built in Silver lining - it suits my purposes and as soon as it doesn't I'll stop subscribing and find another tool.

Subscription based services aren't new, they work and fail in a number of sectors. Yes others will use the subscription model if they see Adobe getting it to work...does it mean ALL creative software will be based on this model?

Simple answer...'NO'.

There are loads of models and you only need to look at for example the Gaming industry to see that its organic and changes according to demand with P2O, P2P, F2P, Subscription, Micro-transaction, etc. etc. etc. all forming a part of the landscape. In that arena the MMO WoW was seen as king - are all MMOs now subscription based...No. <deleted entire tangent on why>

I hear some peoples concerns regarding the CC model and yes you are right that the way to vote is with your wallet, but keep it civil you have a right to your choices over software as do others. I and others are always interested to see whats new out there or unknown to them so talk about alternatives to CC programs tell us the PROs\Cons of them in relation to one another. Adobe will soon get the message if people are switching programs because their model doesn't perform in comparison.

Megalodon2.0
08-15-2013, 04:29 PM
Again, most of us against this move by Adobe - actually, probably ALL of us - are NOT against subscriptions at all. We are against having the CHOICE being removed. Having the OPTION to buy into subscription is great, but it should REMAIN an option, not be mandatory. Removing choice is BAD for the customer no matter how you slice it. All people like myself want is CHOICE restored. This will allow people like me to upgrade when the upgrade is actually worth it and people who prefer subscriptions will be able to pay their rental fees - BUT - they will also be able to buy a perpetual license in case one day they CHOOSE to stop subscription. It really is that simple. ;)

erikals
08-16-2013, 12:03 PM
Agree.

and, i'll refer to my previous post >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136384-Why-I-will-never-sign-up-for-Adobe-Creative-Cloud&p=1331952&viewfull=1#post1331952

+
PhotoShop $300 - developed for 24 years by an average of about 20 programers
PhotoLine $80 - developed for 6 years by an average of about 1.5 programers

PhotoLine, adjust the brush size by holding down Ctrl+mousedrag
PhotoShop, after 20 years finally made the same... > PhotoShop CS5

Rayek
08-16-2013, 12:22 PM
To be fair, Photoline originally was developed on the Atari ST (1996) and ported to Windows 95 in 1997. In 1999 the first Mac version came out.

So, it's been on the market for about 17 years now.

Still, it is mightily impressive for a duo team.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoLine

And I agree as well: it is about choice, or rather lack of choice Adobe forces down our throats.

Photoline Atari ST screenshot:

http://www.maclife.de/files/data/editors/2011_26/263acb424a4659d6f03c9209fe32c107_1309361777.jpg



Agree.

and, i'll refer to my previous post >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136384-Why-I-will-never-sign-up-for-Adobe-Creative-Cloud&p=1331952&viewfull=1#post1331952

+
PhotoShop $300 - developed for 24 years by an average of about 20 programers
PhotoLine $80 - developed for 6 years by an average of about 1.5 programers

PhotoLine, adjust the brush size by holding down Ctrl+mousedrag
PhotoShop, after 20 years finally made the same... > PhotoShop CS5

robertoortiz
08-16-2013, 12:56 PM
Well I have been told by management that we will stick with the current release of CS6. So no CC for us. And I have heard from my friends at the DOD and a lot of agencies are dropping Adobe like a hot potato.

Megalodon2.0
08-16-2013, 03:40 PM
Well I have been told by management that we will stick with the current release of CS6. So no CC for us. And I have heard from my friends at the DOD and a lot of agencies are dropping Adobe like a hot potato.

Excellent! That's great to hear. I hope more government agencies end up doing the same. I mean heck, it's our tax money their using, right? Why end up spending more on CC than a PL?

And another angle from across the pond:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23714699

erikals
08-16-2013, 04:22 PM
Photoline Atari ST screenshot:
http://www.maclife.de/files/data/editors/2011_26/263acb424a4659d6f03c9209fe32c107_1309361777.jpg

Fair?... forgot that word, heard it once... :o

Hey, kind of reminds me of the Amiga UI... oops, revealing my age... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/eek.gif

digitaldoc
08-16-2013, 06:05 PM
I had both the Atari 520 and 1040ST's great computers and the programs available at the time for spreadsheet, word processing, print layout, graphics, desktop publishing etc were far less expensive than that for the Apple Macintosh (which was not color). I bought into pc/windows combo around 1990 at windows 3.0. Was never really exposed to the Commodore.

My folks actually used the old 1040 well into the 90's for word processing.

BigHache
08-16-2013, 06:31 PM
I remember the ST. I only played games (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1WNF9gACh8) on it though.

Qexit
08-17-2013, 06:02 AM
I remember the ST. I only played games (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1WNF9gACh8) on it though.My ST got used for games and lots of other things too. The weirdest was probably running a PC emulator so I could run a SmartWare Spreadsheet to calculate, in realtime, the best deals and routes for my friend to take while playing Elite on his PC. Good job he had a large desk to accommodate both computers, cups of tea, snacks and pen and paper (emergency backup system back then :D). Those were the days :thumbsup:

Rayek
08-20-2013, 09:23 AM
A sign? First cracks?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dividendchannel/2013/08/19/oversold-conditions-for-adobe-systems-adbe/?partner=yahootix

Megalodon2.0
08-20-2013, 04:23 PM
A sign? First cracks?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dividendchannel/2013/08/19/oversold-conditions-for-adobe-systems-adbe/?partner=yahootix

Ahhh... one can only hope. :)

The author of this video sent me the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN4DJNVhgm4

jeric_synergy
08-20-2013, 09:04 PM
I'll extend the analogy to Star Trek with this...

116386


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BsaGiFrGU

"Make art with your bare hands Captain!"

Wow, the costumers went all out on those! (NOT!)