PDA

View Full Version : any VUE users here?



sadkkf
05-22-2013, 11:58 AM
I'm looking for something to make trees and plants and stumbled across Vue Botanica. It's compatible with their free Vue Pioneer and it's only $40. Is this worth it?

Really just want to create foliage and bring it into LW...maybe animate as well. Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

tcoursey
05-22-2013, 12:10 PM
not familiar with that product but have used XFrog and TreeDesigner before. Xfrog has ton's of library items already built. Plus if you buy the actual xfrog program you can create your own. It's a bit expensive if your freelance though.

eKalb
05-22-2013, 01:06 PM
I have seen e-on has been working on a new program called The Plant Factory that is due to be released soon (2nd Quarter 2013). They don't have a release date or pricing for it yet though. It looks interesting.

Or you could try dpont's DP_Tree and DP_Foliage plugins for Lightwave.

sadkkf
05-22-2013, 02:05 PM
@eKalb -- I saw the Plant Factory page. Really wonder what the cost will be. Can't find dpont's plugins on his site.

@tcoursey -- Trying the Xfrog demo now. It's actually 50% off right now. :)

sadkkf
05-22-2013, 02:30 PM
Update: Xfrog doesn't work with Win 8 and I get errors installing it on Win 7x64.

Guess I wait for Plant Factory.

eKalb
05-22-2013, 02:39 PM
Here is the link (http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Lscript_Plugin_Development_en.htm) to the page. Scroll down to modeler tools. They are the 3rd and 4th links.

sadkkf
05-22-2013, 03:05 PM
Here is the link (http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Lscript_Plugin_Development_en.htm) to the page. Scroll down to modeler tools. They are the 3rd and 4th links.

Thanks again, I found that page but those links don't work.

Greenlaw
05-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Did you go here?: http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Verdure/DP_Verdure.html

The links on this page are working for me. BTW, if the tools prove useful, be sure to donate.

Alternatively, there's Pavel Olas' Tree Designer (http://polas.net/) plug-ins.

These tools are great if you need quick 'generic' trees that look pretty good, but if you need specific tree/plant species you'll need to use Xfrog or the upcoming Botannica from e-on. My guess is that Botannica will be a expensive since it's based on their in-house tool that creates the content that come with Vue. If you need trees that can be grown in Vue and affected by the wind system, you'll need this program, but if the trees are for another application you might want to look into other tree/plant modeling programs.

I've also used Onyx Tree (as recently as the Star Wars Kinect job.) Onyx is pretty good for creating specific types of plants but the code and interface is over 10 old and it's become clunky to use. That said, I'm amazed that I am still able to use it in Window 7 x64. You can still buy this suite of programs but I'm not sure I can recommend it because it's such dated software.

Here are two more options you might consider:

Tree[d] (http://www.frecle.net/index.php?show=treed.about). I've installed this one but haven't used it yet. Looks pretty good from what I've seen at the website. And it's free.

ngPlant (http://ngplant.sourceforge.net/). I think I've used this before but can't remember what I thought of it. It's an openSource program, so it's free too.

Then there's Speed Tree (http://www.speedtree.com/), but now we're talking really expensive.

Hope this helps.


G.

sadkkf
05-22-2013, 04:09 PM
Thanks, Greenlaw. Those links worked. I'll give them a go later.

I tried the eval version of Trees Designer, but it really didn't help much since I have no way to know how they render. Pawel replied immediately to my email about it and offered the full version to try, but I'd really feel like a heel trying it out and not buying it if didn't work. I suggested making other limits on the eval version so people could see it in action, but don't know how feasible they are.

I also have tree[d] but don't think they're very realistic. Same with ngPlant.

Yeah, SpeedTree. For that kind of money I'll move to Mexico and live like a king. :)

For about $200 I can get the plugins from VUE to make my own trees and plants and export them to any format. Plus, it creates rocks and things, which are helpful

Greenlaw
05-22-2013, 06:54 PM
The Tree Designer trees are simple but they're modeled as quads so they subpatch nicely. In the latest releases, Pavel added options for generating leaf cards so you don't need the separate Leaf Generator plug-in anymore. Tree Designer creates proper weight maps so you can easily create wind effects. The weights can also be used to do a nice AO cheat as shown on the website. As for making them render nicely, it all depend on your textures, shading properties and how well you light it. I've used Tree Designer trees on many jobs where I didn't need a specific species shown up close. There is one minor issue--sometimes the trunk looks a little odd. I mentioned this to Pavel but I don't think he's going to fix this issue. As he rightly points out though, the error is easily fixable, so it's not a big deal.

I haven't used Verdure but there appear to be similarities between these two plug-ins--and some key differences as well. Check the features lists to compare.

I haven't used the $40 Vue plug-in you mentioned either--will have to check it out. In general, I find that the Vue trees are very simple geometry but with clever shading tricks (as with the above programs,) they can look quite nice.

The Onyx programs mentioned earlier also generates simple geometry but the shapes are based on actual tree species, so they can look very credible. The dated interface really makes it a pain to use though--I wish the developers would make a 21st century upgrade for this suite of tools.

Alternatively, you can create trees in Modeler using the Magic Bevel tool quite easily. When I take this approach, I typically use Pavel's Random Cloner to 'grow' leaves on the branches. Most recently, I used this trick to create the fantasy trees in 'B2', our short film currently in production. (We're also using Vue Infinite for this production too but mainly for animated cloud layers.)

3D Coat's voxel sculpting is an excellent tool for modeling trees from scratch--you can get very organic results with these tools. I've used this approach on a few jobs with excellent results. After creating the main tree shape and retopologizing it, I use Random Cloner in Modeler to populate the leaves. If I did this today, I might try using Instancer for leaves. Naturally, I reserve this method for 'hero' trees that will be rendered close up. I haven't used ZBrush for trees but I imagine it should be just as capable.

IMO, you can never have too many tree tools. (Obviously.) ;)

G.

prometheus
05-23-2013, 05:31 AM
The pavel olas tree desinger and dp_verdure tree generator is very similar.

Dp verdure being free can do both trees,subpatched and with a leaf generator and also a grass generator, weight maps etc.
If you learn how to use it I think you can get very nice results.

xfrog also had a lot of trees freely available on their site...scroll down and check the red marked free price...
http://xfrog.com/category/samples.html

sumatra is a paint vegetation plugin for lightwave that has a library of some trees.
http://svenart.de/sumatra_about.htm

Speed tree which they appaerently used a lot for Avatar is really sweet, the cinema version would cost a fortune though I think, I think their are some free older versions.
Speed tree is unique in the sense it can deliver dynamics from wind or other forces, and you can control every branch independently at any time and procedurally
with node editing, or simply draw out the branches with a pen.
It also has a huge library of cool trees.
http://www.speedtree.com/special-effects-software.php
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=speed+tree&oq=speed+tree&gs_l=youtube.3..0i10j0j0i10j0j0i10.190.2167.0.2439 .10.10.0.0.0.0.119.814.8j2.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.y outube.0kB8I2h38FU

prometheus
05-23-2013, 05:39 AM
to download the xfrog samples you have to create an account with your mail which is free.

then add your plant to the chart, select file format like lightwave...add all those you want then go to check out where you can download them.

Greenlaw
05-23-2013, 09:53 AM
Speed tree is unique in the sense it can deliver dynamics from wind or other forces, and you can control every branch independently at any time and procedurally
with node editing, or simply draw out the branches with a pen.
That's essentially what you will get with Botannica when it's available. The 'special' type of Vue trees and plants are called Solidgrowth, and they can be grown, modified, and affected by Vue dynamics (wind). These effects, naturally, won't work outside of Vue--you'll have to create them using whatever dynamics tools exist for your third party animation program.

I think this is true for SpeedTree too but I'm not 100% sure about that--does it output mdd or some other common displacement data?

G.

prometheus
05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
That's essentially what you will get with Botannica when it's available. The 'special' type of Vue trees and plants are called Solidgrowth, and they can be grown, modified, and affected by Vue dynamics (wind). These effects, naturally, won't work outside of Vue--you'll have to create them using whatever dynamics tools exist for your third party animation program.

I think this is true for SpeedTree too but I'm not 100% sure about that--does it output mdd or some other common displacement data?

G.

1.Not quite as to what I know of, vue only has wind dynamics, the dynamics engine in speedtree is much more advanced and reacts to object dynamics
as well.

2. the level of control isnīt the same, you cant go in detail and rotate change,scale and position of individual branches in solid growth as far as I know of.

I tried the demo, cantīt recall how the interchange data was, donīt have it installed now, maybe there was some fbx export that could handle that or mdd, I thought I tried but didnīt succed at that time.

Whatīs unique in vue, but that wont translate over to exports, it is the ecosystem/solid growth making every tree unique..i wonder how the technique behind that works...donīt think speed tree or any other software has such instancing engine to make unique instances..or maybe it simply isnīt instances at rendertime rather a new mesh?

Michael

Greenlaw
05-23-2013, 12:04 PM
2. the level of control isnīt the same, you cant go in detail and rotate change,scale and position of individual branches in solid growth as far as I know of.
That's true for Vue itself but I was referring to the upcoming Botannica, which is based on the tool e-on uses to design and generate the SolidGrowth trees. I saw a demo of the original tool (I don't remember what it was called back then) at R&H a few years ago and from what I recall it was quite powerful even without the commercial GUI.

As for dynamics, yes, you're correct. As specified above, trees in Vue only respond to wind. You'll need to import an .mdd animated tree for dynamics calculated elsewhere.

I don't have any experience with SpeedTree but I agree that if you need something immediately, Speedtree is the best (and most expensive) way to go. But if Botannica is released with all the capabilities of e-on's in-house plant generation program, it could be a strong competitor to SpeedTree. I imagine this tool will be expensive too though. I guess we'll see in a few months.

G.

sadkkf
05-23-2013, 12:11 PM
to download the xfrog samples you have to create an account with your mail which is free.

then add your plant to the chart, select file format like lightwave...add all those you want then go to check out where you can download them.

Thanks. I grabbed those and have played with them already. They're nice enough, but I'm not crazy about the standalone software. It just won't install for me.

sadkkf
05-23-2013, 12:13 PM
I haven't used the $40 Vue plug-in you mentioned either--will have to check it out.



If you're already using Infinite, you won't need these. The plugin is an optional module for lesser versions. I've been looking at their freebie tool and adding some modules to let me create plants then export them. Together, both of those plugs will run about $200.

And this got me thinking. I have the Vue 5 Infinite version we got with LW a while back. I'm re-installing it now to see how well it works. As I recall it did, but not very smoothly. Still, it could be good enough for now.

prometheus
05-23-2013, 02:41 PM
That's true for Vue itself but I was referring to the upcoming Botannica, which is based on the tool e-on uses to design and generate the SolidGrowth trees. I saw a demo of the original tool (I don't remember what it was called back then) at R&H a few years ago and from what I recall it was quite powerful even without the commercial GUI.

As for dynamics, yes, you're correct. As specified above, trees in Vue only respond to wind. You'll need to import an .mdd animated tree for dynamics calculated elsewhere.

I don't have any experience with SpeedTree but I agree that if you need something immediately, Speedtree is the best (and most expensive) way to go. But if Botannica is released with all the capabilities of e-on's in-house plant generation program, it could be a strong competitor to SpeedTree. I imagine this tool will be expensive too though. I guess we'll see in a few months.

G.


Ahh..I think you are talking abut the upcoming Plant factory? that seems to have been code analyzed and ripped off from speedTree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgSxH4GdJcM&list=UUjJLjOANw3Bwaf-zGqVoakQ&index=1

Plant factory looks good though.

Greenlaw
05-23-2013, 03:07 PM
Yes, Plant Factory! Sorry--brain fart. :)

Greenlaw
05-23-2013, 03:29 PM
And this got me thinking. I have the Vue 5 Infinite version we got with LW a while back. I'm re-installing it now to see how well it works. As I recall it did, but not very smoothly. Still, it could be good enough for now.
Yes, in my opinion, Vue didn't really become production worthy for animation until version 8--up until then, it was primarily useful for matte paintings, mostly because prior to 8 the program had major AA issues and you couldn't export alphas for clouds. Plus, it was just incredibly buggy and slow.

When version 8 came out, it made a huge difference in how we used Vue in production, and the program kept steadily improving from there. The Box used Vue for full CG environments on several jobs and our most ambitious use of the program was this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcEcUa2CYpE

The recently released version 11.5 is quite fantastic! Makes me wish I was making more use of it in our current movie project. It will definitely be featured in our next film.

G.

sadkkf
05-23-2013, 04:44 PM
Yeah, it's all coming back to me as I play with this. Ridiculous render times, crashes when I try to export hires maps, you name it.

safetyman
05-24-2013, 10:11 AM
I have to throw Blender in the mix since it has a fairly nice tree creation tool built in. I made this in about 5 min of just playing around with the insane amount of settings:
114510

Of course, you'll have to add the textures for the leaves and such, but it works very well. Really nice tutorial (series) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCVqOSRT91I

sadkkf
05-24-2013, 10:35 AM
I have to throw Blender in the mix since it has a fairly nice tree creation tool built in. I made this in about 5 min of just playing around with the insane amount of settings:
114510

Of course, you'll have to add the textures for the leaves and such, but it works very well. Really nice tutorial (series) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCVqOSRT91I

That is pretty cool. Looking at some of the other tutes on YouTube for Blender impress me, too. The more frustrated I am with LW, the more I look at Blender and C4D. These are tempting.

Golden Spindle
05-24-2013, 11:26 AM
I had the vue 5 educational years ago and hated it. The render time was out if this world and the quality was ok but not professional. I'm getting ready to purchase Vue 11 esprit with the subscription option for the next upgrade coming this year. What I love most is I can make any scene and import Lightwave object with full textures I used in a real looking environment.

sadkkf
05-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Yeah, 5 really blows. I've got the free Pioneer and wonder how well that works. I can buy two optional modules that create plants and export for $200. If they work, that seems like a good solution.

More and more I keep thinking what I'm after is a good terrain generator. Not only trees, but also plants, rocks, water, grass.... Vue seems like a good tool for this, but I'm not really interested in spending that kind of money.

jwiede
05-24-2013, 10:12 PM
There's also the question of whether you need "accurate" trees or just "made-up" trees?

Pawel Olas' Tree Designer plugin set might be worth considering for "made-up" trees, likewise the Blender solution or whatever. You should take a look if you don't need your trees to be of any accurate species representation.

OTOH, if you need "accurate" tree species, you'll need to look at something like XFrog, Onyx, SpeedTree, Laubwerk's Player, or Vue along with purchased tree species in their respective formats as needed -- the "draw-your-own-tree" solutions (with the possible exception of the upcoming E-On Plant Factory, which looks like a cool hybrid) do not generally allow you to produce "accurate" tree species without a _lot_ of effort at getting proper designs, etc. I think Plant Factory looks very promising, personally, but E-On's holding back many of the critical details like pricing and pkg compatibility thus far. It really isn't clear how close Plant Factory is to actual release, either (nor does release necessarily mean it'd be up for production-level usage, could take a few updates to get there).

Just some thoughts to consider.

prometheus
05-25-2013, 06:58 AM
Yes, in my opinion, Vue didn't really become production worthy for animation until version 8--up until then, it was primarily useful for matte paintings, mostly because prior to 8 the program had major AA issues and you couldn't export alphas for clouds. Plus, it was just incredibly buggy and slow.

When version 8 came out, it made a huge difference in how we used Vue in production, and the program kept steadily improving from there. The Box used Vue for full CG environments on several jobs and our most ambitious use of the program was this one:


The recently released version 11.5 is quite fantastic! Makes me wish I was making more use of it in our current movie project. It will definitely be featured in our next film.


G.

Nice work there...I guess you had help of wind dynamics from vue there when the grass and some plants sway in the wind? full cg environment? depends on what you mean by that though, curious if there was
a mix of cg painted clouds or photo mattepaintings for that, or only use of vue internal clouds, it doesnīt look like internal cloud renders except from maybe one shot but the rest seems like photo or matte painted ones, maybe even a fluid sim?

Michael

sadkkf
05-25-2013, 07:45 AM
There's also the question of whether you need "accurate" trees or just "made-up" trees?

Pawel Olas' Tree Designer plugin set might be worth considering for "made-up" trees, likewise the Blender solution or whatever. You should take a look if you don't need your trees to be of any accurate species representation.

OTOH, if you need "accurate" tree species, you'll need to look at something like XFrog, Onyx, SpeedTree, Laubwerk's Player, or Vue along with purchased tree species in their respective formats as needed -- the "draw-your-own-tree" solutions (with the possible exception of the upcoming E-On Plant Factory, which looks like a cool hybrid) do not generally allow you to produce "accurate" tree species without a _lot_ of effort at getting proper designs, etc. I think Plant Factory looks very promising, personally, but E-On's holding back many of the critical details like pricing and pkg compatibility thus far. It really isn't clear how close Plant Factory is to actual release, either (nor does release necessarily mean it'd be up for production-level usage, could take a few updates to get there).

Just some thoughts to consider.

Those are good points. Thus far, I have not needed real species. Of course, I'm just getting started on a project that will be seen by a lot of geologists and environmental students. :) If I end up needing an accurate model, I can buy one-offs of Xfrog, but really don't want the software.

The Plant Factory site says a Q2 release, but no details on anything else. Who knows? I'm holding off on that to learn more and waiting for a demo. Pawel's TD is very nice. I'm still tinkering with the full version he offered me, but will probably end up purchasing. I may also end up with TPF or buying a couple of modules for Vue Pioneer.

Anyone use Terragen? I've seen great results from it, but the UI seems way more complicated than it needs to be.

- - - Updated - - -


Nice work there...I guess you had help of wind dynamics from vue there when the grass and some plants sway in the wind? full cg environment? depends on what you mean by that though, curious if there was
a mix of cg painted clouds or photo mattepaintings for that, or only use of vue internal clouds, it doesnīt look like internal cloud renders except from maybe one shot but the rest seems like photo or matte painted ones, maybe even a fluid sim?

Michael

Ditto here. That's really good work.

prometheus
05-25-2013, 08:41 AM
Anyone use Terragen? I've seen great results from it, but the UI seems way more complicated than it needs to be.





well I donīt use terragen, I only got to try the demo from version 2 I think, utterly slow for previewing the sky, and the user interface isnīt halfe as decent and initiuve as vue, I think I would go for vue anytime really.

Terragen seems to have a better lighting algoritm and also better cloud functions thus generally nicer cumulonimbus style clouds, vue is working
with non specific cloud fractal noises thus not as good as Terragens or even lightwave fractals for that matter.
Terragen AA system or noise reduction seems much better too, but all this in account ..I would still go for vue.
Edit...of course the new licensing types and pricing might exclude vue in the future for being a good choice.

Michael

safetyman
05-25-2013, 10:01 AM
I was going to suggest trying Bryce 7 Pro as a free interim solution, but I see that it's $19.95 now over at Daz3d. I managed to snag it when it was offered up for free, but I haven't used it yet.

Greenlaw
05-25-2013, 10:43 AM
Nice work there...I guess you had help of wind dynamics from vue there when the grass and some plants sway in the wind? full cg environment? depends on what you mean by that though, curious if there was
a mix of cg painted clouds or photo mattepaintings for that, or only use of vue internal clouds, it doesnīt look like internal cloud renders except from maybe one shot but the rest seems like photo or matte painted ones, maybe even a fluid sim?

Michael
Many of the enviornment shots are pure Vue or nearly so. A couple exceptions are the intro shot and the first shot with the 'Hero' character, which used matte paintings. Scenes where the 'evil entity' is chasing the woman are 100% Vue environments. Shots with the matte paintings had a few carded vue elements, and I faked 'wind' on the painting used carefully shaped displacement tricks in compositing. Wind in the 100% cg shots are all Vue of course.

I don't think we relied on Vue clouds here--I'll have to look again and refresh my memory.

This wasn't the first time we did 100% cg 'nature' environments with Vue but it was one of our more successful ones--certainly it was our most ambitious.

I am using animated Vue clouds for a few shots in our upcoming 'Brudders 2' short film, currently in production--it's looking great and renders quickly. I talk about it a little in the Production Log thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-%28Well-sort-of-%29/page10).

I have to leave now--will write more later.

G.

Spinland
05-25-2013, 10:48 AM
This was a fun little piece I did last year, experimenting with Vue's animated clouds (as well as some After Effects and Poser Fusion stuff). I used Vue 8 Esprit for the sky and clouds.


http://youtu.be/DFnTLPXJPvQ

sadkkf
05-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Edit...of course the new licensing types and pricing might exclude vue in the future for being a good choice.

Michael

what licensing types are you referring to?

sadkkf
05-25-2013, 11:21 AM
I was going to suggest trying Bryce 7 Pro as a free interim solution, but I see that it's $19.95 now over at Daz3d. I managed to snag it when it was offered up for free, but I haven't used it yet.

Bryce. Totally forgot about that. $20 is no big deal, but I'd like to try it before I buy it. Too bad there's no demo.

Greenlaw
05-25-2013, 12:59 PM
what licensing types are you referring to?

My understanding is that e-on changed the terms for floating licenses, including render nodes, which has upset a lot of users.

I use the standalone version of Infinite, which includes 5 Render Cows--AFAIK, the terms are unchanged for standalone users. I have to pay an annual subscription of about $260 to receive updates and there are typically two major updates during a subscription period (plus smaller incremental beta updates in between.) If I miss my subscription, I think it's an extra $100 to renew. What kinda sucks is that the 'renewal' begins from the expiration date, not the renewal date.

If the updates had not been so worthwhile, I might have dropped out recently. But it's still pretty annoying because I don't use Vue at home nearly as much as I'd like to really justify the expense. I finally got my 5 Render Cows up and running though and thinking of purchasing additional 'Cows' so that may change. In fact, our next film after 'B2' will feature a 100% Vue environment

G.

Greenlaw
05-25-2013, 01:16 PM
This wasn't the first time we did 100% cg 'nature' environments with Vue but it was one of our more successful ones--certainly it was our most ambitious.

I should clarify that when I say 100% Vue, I'm speaking strictly of the environments. The characters, of course, are all rendered in LightWave. When you see fluid dynamics, that's either FumeFX, Turbulence FD (LightWave version) or a manipulated practical element--or a hybrid of two or more techniques. If the characters need to interact with the Vue environment, we used xStream--though sometimes it's easier to just animate certain elements in LightWave. When we did the Dangerous Hunts commerical, for example, when the hunter is running through the jungle, I *think* the branches he pushed aside were LightWave--I could be wrong though; I should ask Ken Wilder about this since he set up most of the Box's Vue stuff.

Some of the Vue stuff in the Fable: The Journey cinematic used hybrid techniques, and the shot that introduces the 'Hero' is a good example. I set up the environment in Vue but rendered everything beyond the road as a still image, which was made even prettier by a traditional matte painter. The foregound remained 100% cg and received true Vue dynamics, but I cheated the dynamics in the matte painting using animated 2D displacement techniques. Naturally, this made the shot significantly faster to render.

The shots with the woman running through the forest pretty much had to be 100% Vue for obvious reasons--the camera is very dynamic in those shots and we cover a lot of ground. But when the camera is not moving so much, I rendered still backdrops in vue where I felt we could get away with it (mainly in the shots where she meets the carriage,) and I used 2D displacement to make the leaves and branches appear to move in the wind. For these shots, I relied more on 2/3D compositing tricks in Fusion than full cg renders.

G.

Greenlaw
05-25-2013, 01:26 PM
...If the characters need to interact with the Vue environment, we used xStream...

I should clarify something here too: It's not necessary to use xStream to integrate characters from LightWave with Vue. Vue Infinite includes the VueSynch LightWave plug-in that allows you to sync up the LightWave camera to a Vue scene for a perfect match, so you can easily merge LightWave elements with Vue renders in compositing. If you need occlusion objects or shadow catcher/casters to animate in Vue, you can use .mdd, or you can export items from Vue and bring them into LightWave as occlusion or shadow catcher/casting objects. It's a little more work this way but more affordable for a small studio like Little Green Dog. :)

And even if you have xStream, it can sometimes be more practical to render separate elements using the programs separately with the synched camera. At the Box, we might have used either method depending on what was needed for compositing.

G.

safetyman
05-26-2013, 06:22 AM
Bryce. Totally forgot about that. $20 is no big deal, but I'd like to try it before I buy it. Too bad there's no demo.

http://download.cnet.com/Bryce-Personal-Learning-Edition/3000-6677_4-75219820.html?tag=mncol;1

sadkkf
05-26-2013, 09:45 AM
My understanding is that e-on changed the terms for floating licenses, including render nodes, which has upset a lot of users.

I use the standalone version of Infinite, which includes 5 Render Cows--AFAIK, the terms are unchanged for standalone users. I have to pay an annual subscription of about $260 to receive updates and there are typically two major updates during a subscription period (plus smaller incremental beta updates in between.) If I miss my subscription, I think it's an extra $100 to renew. What kinda sucks is that the 'renewal' begins from the expiration date, not the renewal date.

If the updates had not been so worthwhile, I might have dropped out recently. But it's still pretty annoying because I don't use Vue at home nearly as much as I'd like to really justify the expense. I finally got my 5 Render Cows up and running though and thinking of purchasing additional 'Cows' so that may change. In fact, our next film after 'B2' will feature a 100% Vue environment

G.

Thanks for the info.

It's getting so small businesses can't afford the cost of doing business anymore. I'm not able -- nor want -- to subscribe to Adobe's cloud. All these extra monthly expenses get too hard to manage, especially for a single-person company as myself.

- - - Updated - - -


http://download.cnet.com/Bryce-Personal-Learning-Edition/3000-6677_4-75219820.html?tag=mncol;1

Thx. Downloading now.

Spinland
05-26-2013, 09:52 AM
It's getting so small businesses can't afford the cost of doing business anymore. I'm not able -- nor want -- to subscribe to Adobe's cloud. All these extra monthly expenses get too hard to manage, especially for a single-person company as myself.

Quoted for agreement.

sadkkf
05-26-2013, 09:55 AM
I should clarify that when I say 100% Vue, I'm speaking strictly of the environments. The characters, of course, are all rendered in LightWave. When you see fluid dynamics, that's either FumeFX, Turbulence FD (LightWave version) or a manipulated practical element--or a hybrid of two or more techniques. If the characters need to interact with the Vue environment, we used xStream--though sometimes it's easier to just animate certain elements in LightWave. When we did the Dangerous Hunts commerical, for example, when the hunter is running through the jungle, I *think* the branches he pushed aside were LightWave--I could be wrong though; I should ask Ken Wilder about this since he set up most of the Box's Vue stuff.

Some of the Vue stuff in the Fable: The Journey cinematic used hybrid techniques, and the shot that introduces the 'Hero' is a good example. I set up the environment in Vue but rendered everything beyond the road as a still image, which was made even prettier by a traditional matte painter. The foregound remained 100% cg and received true Vue dynamics, but I cheated the dynamics in the matte painting using animated 2D displacement techniques. Naturally, this made the shot significantly faster to render.

The shots with the woman running through the forest pretty much had to be 100% Vue for obvious reasons--the camera is very dynamic in those shots and we cover a lot of ground. But when the camera is not moving so much, I rendered still backdrops in vue where I felt we could get away with it (mainly in the shots where she meets the carriage,) and I used 2D displacement to make the leaves and branches appear to move in the wind. For these shots, I relied more on 2/3D compositing tricks in Fusion than full cg renders.

G.

It's very impressive. Too bad we can't buy the VueSynch plugin for Complete.

Greenlaw
05-26-2013, 10:24 AM
It's getting so small businesses can't afford the cost of doing business anymore. I'm not able -- nor want -- to subscribe to Adobe's cloud. All these extra monthly expenses get too hard to manage, especially for a single-person company as myself.

Yes, I agree. If I only needed one or two programs to do my work, I might be okay with that but I currently rely on dozens of applications and if they all suddenly went with the subscription model, I would have to drop several programs completely--and I would have to reconsider if I really want to continue doing cg for a living.

G.

sadkkf
05-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Yes, I agree. If I only needed one or two programs to do my work, I might be okay with that but I currently rely on dozens of applications and if they all suddenly went with the subscription model, I would have to drop several programs completely--and I would have to reconsider if I really want to continue doing cg for a living.

G.

Exactly. Losing the Adobe products is huge for me. I'm going to miss Photoshop and After Effects. I was really hoping to transition more to animation and motion graphics, but looks like I'm stuck with web development.

- - - Updated - - -


http://download.cnet.com/Bryce-Personal-Learning-Edition/3000-6677_4-75219820.html?tag=mncol;1

I think this is a no-go. Exporting to LW is ridiculous. No surfaces. I have to export to 3DS and even then the leaves are all exactly the same. That's too bad. I liked Bryce back in the day.

prometheus
05-26-2013, 11:59 AM
I didnīt get any email feedback from this thread when new posts arrived, so I missed the latest discussion here.

Thanks for all the informative stuff about the production Greenlaw, and it sums it up close to what I though the process was.

To bad the ozone plugin has itīs limits and not being that interactive as I thought, and to bad ogoTaiki just is floating out there, to bad we skytracer as
native cloudscape, it sucks and canīt cast cloud shadows or rays, and are extremly slow with textured shadows, I rather prefer the use of voxels.

some very old ozone test, spectral cloud layer2, evolution and some godrays, rendered with
the plugin in lightwave, not the best quality settings though, some noise..but for testing.
https://vimeo.com/39122792

one more ozone, quite noisy...
https://vimeo.com/39072395

ozone and a hypervoxel trail..awful quality on the hypervoxel trail, I didīnt bother fixing that since
the raymarch mode is needed for hv to work with ozone and that is extremly slow, would simply be better to
use ogo taiki or hypervoxels for everything.
https://vimeo.com/21359403

faked clouds and godrays,volumetric
light and procedural texture cloud plane.
https://vimeo.com/57671552

Cloud evolution test..TurbulenceFD demo, sorry for
the quality and artifacts, but you get an idea
of it when rendered more carefully:)
https://vimeo.com/53969414

Phil
05-26-2013, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the info.

It's getting so small businesses can't afford the cost of doing business anymore. I'm not able -- nor want -- to subscribe to Adobe's cloud. All these extra monthly expenses get too hard to manage, especially for a single-person company as myself.



To clarify the situation, rendernodes (as opposed to rendercows) are what allow you to render using xStream in the host application on a render farm. Rendercows are the distributed render node implementation for rendering purely with Vue. There are 5 rendercows bundled with Infinite and xStream so far as I am aware. The whole point of xStream is to allow you to render in the host application, so there you'll need to buy rendernode licenses (1 per node; doesn't matter how many CPUs/cores per-node). You'll also need to buy their mandatory 500 USD license server to serve the licenses for render nodes. To sum up, your initial outlay :

(xStream license) + (n * rendernode license) + (license server)

Prior to Vue 11's release, a single maintenance fee every year would upgrade all of your software (rendernodes, host application and the license server). All licenses were perpetual.

With Vue 11, e-on changed the rules (although didn't tell anyone ahead of time, so I stumped up the renewal fee and then got told the bad news later). The license server is now time-bombed to die every 365 days. If you're off-maintenance, you'll need to pay them 200 USD just to keep the license server running, otherwise all of your floating licenses (render nodes and xStream) will die. Render nodes and the license server are now effectively rented from e-on. You'll have to activate your xStream license on a specific machine (node-locked) to keep it usable once the license server expires. If you want to upgrade, you will need to pay :

(upgrade charge) + (n * render node upgrade fee)

If you keep up maintenance, the maintenance fee no longer covers render nodes - only the main application and the license server. Your annual fee will now be :

(maintenance) + (n * render node upgrade fee)

to stay up to date and to avoid expiration of existing licenses.

It's pure bait and switch and I'm still furious about this. If you complain, they simply say that you can drop to 10.x for perpetual licenses, but of course that's no longer maintained and since their bridge plugin checks explicitly for the host application version and fails to launch under newer releases, that's of very limited value.

I used to be happy to praise e-on. They'd done a lot of good work to improve the quality of their product. Now they've soured it all with their blatant crash grab.

MichaelT
01-20-2018, 01:17 AM
...