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archiea
11-10-2003, 03:05 AM
Well, looks like the market is gonna get a bit crowded...

http://store.softimage.com/store/lang/EN/3d_v4.asp

A base version of SI can be had for under $800, a higher end version with a built in Mental ray renderer can be had for $1250. Add $600 to that for Cloth Extreme...

XSI is available ffor between $4000 and $10,000

An XSI tutorial kit for $80

I think its important to mention this as its indicative of the current climate. Max is still at 4K I think. Considering what NT gives you in LW, and that the tuts are free, I stil think LW is the better value (unlimited render nodes, a mac version, built in dynamics (at least in 8) and a full investment in one version, as opposed to LW enterprise and LW pro.. :D )

Since Ihave a PC now, I'd love to take advantage of this just to have access to the modeler and animation tools, and provide better feedback to NT for LW :D .

Seriously though, I hope this creates some form of competative parity w/ LW to inspire innovation in its development....

Kinda like competition = kewl new features for us!!!!

takkun
11-10-2003, 03:55 AM
I didn't even know that they were still selling the old softimage. And softimage has it's own renderer too? I always assumed that their "main" renderer was Mental Ray.



yeah, legacy products... woo hoo :rolleyes: (sorry, I just can't get that excited about it)

Nemoid
11-10-2003, 04:06 AM
Yap the market is going to be more crowded. competition is very high level and surely in 2004 we will see interesting things.for example one day or another Lux apps will arrive, so that another competitor will be in the market as well.
(here Alias and Avid could have some problem...)

as a node based soft, XSI is right now a great app indeed, very competitive also with Maya, wich is more difficult to use. the rendering nodes are the only "lack" point here

on one hand Lw have unlimited render nodes and this can save you a lot of money especially if you're starting a new company.the Lw rendering is if not fast, very accurate, with a good final result.

on the other hand in XSI you have the best MRay integration
( better than Maya's indeed)

but I think NT will not just stay there and see , and that the price and power of Lw will be competitive as well, especially for the solo artist and small company.

mattclary
11-10-2003, 05:49 AM
Note that technical support and upgrades are not included in those base prices. Sounds like they're offloading extra copies prior killing that code stream. Not to say it wouldn't be interesting to get my hands on though.

hrgiger
11-10-2003, 10:18 AM
I think it was to be expected. They couldn't hope to keep selling their product at the inflated price it was at. The whole industry for the most part has changed and price has been an issue. Competitors won't necessarily change their price just because someone else does it, at least not immediately. It's starting to catch up though on some of the higher priced apps as lower priced apps become more flexible and powerful. God help the rest of the industry if Lightwave ever became an integrated app with edge weighting, real time animation capabilities, and lightning fast rendering, that's all I have to say.

Nemoid
11-10-2003, 10:26 AM
Agree. if ever lw will become like that, it will be a dark period for other apps.

cresshead
11-10-2003, 01:02 PM
and just a note on this subject...discreet and 3dsmax have not changed it's price since 1996/1997 when max 1 came onto the market...it's always been £2695 plus vat...thay are the only vendor who has not dropped or changed pricing ever.

and they still shift quite a few seats of 3dsmax...

softimage is interesting at $800 or $1200 for the one with a single mental ray node...remember they shipped softimage free with xsi 1.0 as xsi was pretty poor in the first version and loads of stuff was still in DEV.

softimage would be interesting...but a cul de sac of an app in comparison to ligtwave or maya 5.0

if it had what you needed in it as it was then it's a good idea.

steve g

Librarian
11-10-2003, 03:55 PM
The price change of softimage product is just a temporary advertising campaign. Iīm sure Avid and Softimage are not permanent changing their pricing policy within the next months. They spend more money on research than any other company, Alias included. They are young, ok not really ;), and need the money :D

EyesClosed
11-10-2003, 07:14 PM
I think it was to be expected. They couldn't hope to keep selling their product at the inflated price it was at.

Actually, they are one of the only companies to make a profit (besides Maxon), so clearly their price was right.

hrgiger
11-10-2003, 08:34 PM
Maybe for right now. But it won't last indefinately. Eventually, when it comes to a matter of features or who can do it just as good for half as much.....

Besides, Softimage can hardly be compared to Ligthwave at the moment as Softimage is hardly aimed towards the individual home user/hobbyist where Lightwave is.

Beamtracer
11-10-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Softimage can hardly be compared to Ligthwave at the moment as Softimage is hardly aimed towards the individual home user/hobbyist where Lightwave is. I hope that is not true, that Lightwave is for the home hobbyist. It would be a foolish marketing move. Next we'll get a religious version.

A 3D app like Lightwave should be developed and marketed to the top end of town, to the professionals making content that we can all see at the movies, on TV, in print and in games.

Once it's known as the app the professionals use, those who aspire to make similar content will be attracted to it automatically.

It worries me to think that Newtek may be contemplating a downgrade of Lightwave's professional status.

WizCraker
11-11-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer, a GoldMember
Next we'll get a religious version.

And there is nothing wrong if Newtek wants to make a version set for the Religious market. But there is no need to discuss this topic as it has been beated to death on the Genesis thread.


A 3D app like Lightwave should be developed and marketed to the top end of town, to the professionals making content that we can all see at the movies, on TV, in print and in games.

Last time I checked Newtek does market to the professionals that use it in TV, Film, and Print. Almost every major studio uses Lightwave somewhere in their production pipeline.


Once it's known as the app the professionals use, those who aspire to make similar content will be attracted to it automatically.

This is all marketing and I have to agree with you here as Newtek does not seem to take an active role in getting the LW out there for people to see. Alias for instance excels at marketing their product. For instance I walk into the closest bookstore and I see maybe 3 books on LW, 5 on Max, and 10+ on Maya. Most of the books on Maya are published by Alias Press they have a book that covers everything from character, animation, basic, advanced stuff. The books are easy to open [and stay open when layed flat] usually have color photos to help show the important steps and not to confuse the user with bad greyscale images. And most importantly included on the CD is PLE of Maya. Newtek needs to start getting the DE of LW out there for people to use. Then again that is only my opinion and will most likely be argued to death of Newtek does not need to market their product any more than what they have done.

Oh and I should add it's great to see Wordware getting 20+ books out for Lightwave, but I wish they could make the books a little bit wider as the current books are to thin and hard to open, and are like reading a quick refrence guide to UNIX admistration [like the In a Nutshell Books from Orielly]


It worries me to think that Newtek may be contemplating a downgrade of Lightwave's professional status.

I don't think they are downgrading it; just the Lack of mass marketing to get the product noticed by potential users and getting the LWDE shown largely on their website,

Nemoid
11-11-2003, 01:35 AM
Well, of course marketing is very important to make a product noticeable.

you know, I think companies like Alias and Avid and Discrete are huge companies. the price of their apps was high, and into that price, marketing was comprised surely.

Now, we have Alias that went from a very high price for Maya to a 2000$ for complete edition, but the money earned with previous pricing allows tham to do a huge marketing about their product.
the same is valid for Avid still now, with a marketing temporary advertising at a low price for XSI, tempting many users to make the move, and probably going in this line for the future.
in fact, even if XSI is a very good app, its previous price was just inflated, really too high.

Nt mantains always the same good price for Lw, PC and Mac licence and unlimited rendering node, wich is the best for the single artist and the small company. upgrades, also are cheap and this is very good.

of course, I think a little more advertising should be good for Lw. but a huge advertising campaign costs a lot of money and this could have a great influence in pricing. now, I think that, if smth have to have some influence in pricing, its only research.

I also think that a a good thing to make better are the learning resources, wich are what a newbie user search and needs.

Proton here did a great job, but I think that in the future this could be also enhanced, especially with videos and DVD's wich I find to be a very good way to learn.
A video stores much more information than a book, shows directly the way to work, and of course a cd or DVD can contain a rom part with PDF's scenes objects, images and other.

also, to make a good video, you just can use Camtasia, and grab your work on the screen in an efficient way, and so you loose no great time making it.

another interesting thing in a good app are the manuals.
I had the occasion to see C4D's manuals for example, and they are very good indeed, with also a tutorials book.

So, for learning resources I think Nt too could go with a DVD series or smth like that. this will also allow to earn some more money, without going with an inflated price only because of huge advertising, while the manuals I hope they will be good for [8]. they just need some inflation for real!:D

chico
11-11-2003, 01:42 AM
... that's all I have to say.

God I hope so, that didn't make any sense what-so-ever.:rolleyes:

lord
11-11-2003, 01:57 AM
Well young LightWave hobbyists, perhaps we should do our homework before commenting about the price of competing 3D applications, it's not that hard to visit their website. XSI's current price is simply a temporary incentive until the end of december.;)

By the way, you can't honestly put LightWave into the hobbyist's basket, wings, rhino, strata studio perhaps, even Lego, but not LightWave, at least not yet.;)

To clarify things for our hobbyists, I think NewTek were really suggesting that they could provide a professional package like LightWave at a price that even nonprofessionals could afford.;)
Will it backfire?


I think while they're visiting the competing 3D app site, our intrepid hobbyist's should take a quick glance down the lengthy feature list kindly provided. Really is a dead give away as to why XSI costs what it does.;)
Most people refer to that as value for money, not an inflated price.


Actually, they are one of the only companies to make a profit (besides Maxon), so clearly their price was right. kinda interesting really. Where did you get the figures from EyesClosed?

EyesClosed
11-11-2003, 02:18 AM
I hope that is not true, that Lightwave is for the home hobbyist. It would be a foolish marketing move. Next we'll get a religious version.

Newtek is a tiny, private company. They could never hope to ever compete directly with the likes of Avid or Alias, who are huge, public companies.

Beamtracer
11-11-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Newtek is a tiny, private company. They could never hope to ever compete directly with the likes of Avid or Alias, who are huge, public companies.
I don't see why not. In fact, Lightwave must compete against XSI and Maya.

Avid (makers of SoftImage) is usually deep in the red financially. They were one of the first to get into non-linear video editing, but that makes no profit for them anymore, as they can't compete with the likes of Apple's Final Cut Pro.

More recently Avid has been trying to manouvre themselves into a slightly different area... television newsroom automation. Maybe they'll do better there, as that's not a market that Final Cut Pro is after.

The parent company of Alias is SGI, a company with an innovative history but also a heavy loss maker. These companies don't have massive amounts of money to throw around.

The market for 3D apps is crowded. Most are losing money. Then there's that breakaway group of ex-Newtek programmers who hope to make a buck in their somewhere.

In a crowded market, one can only hope that all the companies generate new "unit-sales" to keep themselves going.

cresshead
11-11-2003, 04:24 AM
just to clarify..and make sure that everone has hold of the right and of the stick so to speak...

the deal for softimage 4.0 with cloth and mental ray for £800 is for softimage 4.0 ....NOT xsi...

softimage 4.0 looks to have had it's progress halted now that xsi can stand on it's own 2 feet [version1 needed softimage to make it a complete solution with poly modeling etc]

so yes, £800 is a great price for some top software with a single mentral ray 2.2 node [mental ray is now in 3.2]

BUT....

i wouldn't expect any more upgrades for softimage 4.0 other than a upgrade to xsi.

so your buying a "cul de sac" style software...which is fine if what you need from a 3d app is all contained in softimage 4.0


steve g

takkun
11-11-2003, 04:54 AM
Besides, Softimage can hardly be compared to Ligthwave at the moment as Softimage is hardly aimed towards the individual home user/hobbyist where Lightwave is. It's not really aimed at the home user/hobbyist only. If you look at the recent ads and the site, Lightwave is being marketed as an all-around application with emphasis on the emmy award winning studios that use it as one of their main tools.

But on the other hand, XSI (not softimage 4.0) is being marketed solely at large film/tv studios only and it's definitely one of the best programs out there.

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by takkun
It's not really aimed at the home user/hobbyist only. If you look at the recent ads and the site, Lightwave is being marketed as an all-around application with emphasis on the emmy award winning studios that use it as one of their main tools.



I wasn't suggesting Takkun that Lightwave is marketed only towards hobbyists, I just wanted to mention that Lightwave is definately aimed at the hobbyist or even single professional as part of their customer base where softimage is not. They could only hope to appeal to the studio customer.

One of Newtek's aims has always been to provide pro quality tools that even an artist can afford. This isn't a new marketing thing, they've been saying this for at least the last few years that I've used Lightwave. That doesn't necessarily sound like they want to exclude the home hobbyist nor does it mean they aren't marketing to professional studios.

I love how everyone wants Lightwave to be just like XSI or Maya, but then they don't want to pay for it. Research and development cost money, and you can't hope for Lightwave to best XSI and only pay $1500 for it.

mattclary
11-11-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by lord

Will it backfire?



You guys are killing me! "Will" it backfire? The question is, "Has" it backfired, since it has always been Newtek's policy to provide professional software at affordable prices. And, no, it has not backfired, just in case you were wondering.


I suggest you all read this:
http://www.newtek.com/newtek/summary.html


edit:
Funny, Steve! I hadn't even read your post when I wrote this!

chico
11-11-2003, 05:39 AM
... that's all I have to say.

First off, you promised.!

Second, what the hell is your point?
You winge about how XSI is too high priced, then you comment on how other users don't want to pay that same amount for Lightwave and should be happy with what they have:confused:

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 05:44 AM
Chico, I'm not sure what your problem is, but perhaps if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, you should spend your time elsewhere.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Chico :

"You winge about how XSI is too high priced..."

Just wondering what a winge is and how one winges....?

chico
11-11-2003, 05:46 AM
I just can't for the life of me figure out what you argument is?

cresshead
11-11-2003, 05:48 AM
to get a better view on soft's 4 deal think of it as either of these two things....


3ds dos v4 then max was created....
max is xsi and 3ds dos is softimage...

or alias power animator and maya 1
soft4 is power animator and maya 1 is xsi

your being offered old technology that will not be developed anymore...

great deal yes but doomed to stay exactly where it is forever.


of course this still means that the soft 4 is a great app and will do you proud but just remember it's a redundant app in the long run.

where as maya, lw max and xsi will continure to develope more capabilities in the future and also run on future operating systems



steve g

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 05:57 AM
Ok Chico, I'll explain it slowly to help you out little guy...
Yes, I think XSI is too high priced. Do studios use it? Yes. What does it have to do with how I feel about the price? Nothing.

Do I want the features of XSI? Sure. Are they worth the price difference between what I paid for Lightwave and what XSI would cost? Not for me.

Do others want the features of XSI but only want to pay $1500 for it in Lightwave. Sure. Do I love it? No, I was being sarcastic. Should it matter what I think? Not really. Should you be getting your panties all in a bunch over it and flaming me? No. Did I report you to a moderator for statements you made in another thread towards me? Sure.

See ya.

chico
11-11-2003, 05:57 AM
max is xsi and 3ds dos is softimage...

Yea, but you would be an idiot to part with money over 3dsdos, S4 is highly production proven up current day. Dos4 hasn't be used for any serious work for many years.

mattclary
11-11-2003, 06:01 AM
Muuussst... resist... urge... to... hit... "Ignore"... button....!

chico
11-11-2003, 06:02 AM
Did I report you to a moderator for statements you made in another thread towards me? Sure.

HUh? oh they were not addressed at you, I was simply testing out the magical swipe trick, I just used what I had in my clipboard I guess. The post beforehand I gave you words of encouragement. Sounds like you have some paranoia issues to me.

lord
11-11-2003, 06:05 AM
Hang on a minute, I'm getting a little confused. Let's see, if XSI is going for US$4000, but only temporarily, as it's usually £4.883.34, and SI which is in fact not XSI as we are all aware of is going for £800 which is actually US$1,309.79, and LightWave fluctuates between R24,270.40 and US$1595, depending on whether you use it for print or tv/film production 3Ds dos is compararable to alias power animator, but isn't currently available for purchase but 3D Studio Max 6.0 is, at roughly •410,346.00 which is about twice the price of LightWave's standard price. And Maya is regarded as a high end 3d animation package, whereas LightWave's just for hobbyists and the occasional professional freelance artist, and Maxon is the only 3D developer currently making a profit (incidentally a German profit) and Cinema 4D has a range of prices in various currencies, but still isn't considered high end either... no I've lost my train of thought.


Bugger.


Now I'll have to start again...:confused:

chico
11-11-2003, 06:23 AM
Ok Chico, I'll explain it slowly to help you out little guy...
Yes, I think XSI is too high priced. Do studios use it? Yes. What does it have to do with how I feel about the price? Nothing.

***Okay so XSI is expensive, studios use it, you don't care.
Okay I'm with you so far, thanks for toning it down.

Do I want the features of XSI? Sure. Are they worth the price difference between what I paid for Lightwave and what XSI would cost? Not for me.

***Okay still following...

Do others want the features of XSI but only want to pay $1500 for it in Lightwave. Sure. Do I love it? No, I was being sarcastic. Should it matter what I think? Not really.

***Okay now I've lost you, but you conclude on the fact that it doesn't matter what you think. Well I think we can both agree on this, so let's just leave it here.:cool:

cresshead
11-11-2003, 06:47 AM
the best way to explain all ths is:

"there is no spoon"



there you go...all solved!


life is SO simple when you break it down.

chico
11-11-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
the best way to explain all ths is:

"there is no spoon"



there you go...all solved!


life is SO simple when you break it down.

Bugger, well there goes breakfast then, guess I'll be eating toast. There is a knife right? Isn't there?

cresshead
11-11-2003, 09:24 AM
there will always be a knife...so we can use it to make "cutting statements" and have a "slice of reality" and in the end "spread happiness" around the world.

see...a knife is much more uesful than a spoon.

unless you like pudding or cereals...then it just won't "cut it"


"may the fork be with you"


steve g

takkun
11-11-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
Muuussst... resist... urge... to... hit... "Ignore"... button....! There's an ignore button?!?!

lord
11-11-2003, 04:24 PM
Personally I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, it's got everything I need to be entertained, a plot, well developed characters, an excellent story and a balanced degree of gratuitous violence, what more could you ask for.;)

GruvSyco
11-11-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by takkun
There's an ignore button?!?!

Click on profile (of user you wish to ignore) and there is an add user to ignore list link.

takkun
11-11-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by GruvSyco
Click on profile (of user you wish to ignore) and there is an add user to ignore list link. Hey thanks, does anyone know how it works? Does it just hide posts from people you ignore, or does it just block private messages?

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by lord
Personally I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, it's got everything I need to be entertained, a plot, well developed characters, an excellent story and a balanced degree of gratuitous violence, what more could you ask for.;)

Well, you really don't need any of those things. ;)

mattclary
11-11-2003, 06:12 PM
LOL!! Excellent point, Steve! :)

Takkun, posts by ignored individuals just have a place holder wher their post is, saying, "This poster is on your ignore list". Doesn't even show their name if I remember correctly. Been a while since I used it.

colkai
11-12-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I hope that is not true, that Lightwave is for the home hobbyist. It would be a foolish marketing move.
.........
It worries me to think that Newtek may be contemplating a downgrade of Lightwave's professional status.

Well, speaking extremely biased as a hobbyist, I would hate LW to go "top-end" as normally, this puts it beyond the reach of the home user.
If you have no home-users, were does the next generation of talent come from? Purely the exclusivity (new word folks) of Universities - well whoop de -frakkin-doo!

Don't think that because LW is accessible to the home user that it is not a serious tool, we all know otherwise, indeed you say as much.
Newteks strength is that they cater to both fields, long may it continue.
At the base-user level, the difference between 1k and 2k is huge, after all, unlike studios, hobbyists cannot just "write-off" the package cost, so when it comes to bang for buck, LW still has an edge.
Now as to the future, one cannot say, but right now, my money stays on LW.

colkai
11-12-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid

Proton here did a great job, but I think that in the future this could be also enhanced, especially with videos and DVD's wich I find to be a very good way to learn.
A video stores much more information than a book, shows directly the way to work, and of course a cd or DVD can contain a rom part with PDF's scenes objects, images and other.


Nemoid,
Damn fine ideas, which I heartily agree with.
Certainly there is a chance new buyers may get a "gettings started" video for free, but allowing upgraders access to such training videos on the web would be a huge boost in getting to grips with new versions.
After all, history has shown, knowing LW4.0 doesn't mean a user would have a clue how to drive LW7 - even though an upgrade path for that existed.
With training videos, people get up to speed faster, which is good news for Newtek as well.
Even now, long-time users are surprised to discover something hidden within LW that they could have been using for a long time, but did not know about.

Oh dear - I'm starting to ramble..time for a coffee ;)

colkai
11-12-2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
[BJust wondering what a winge is and how one winges....? [/B]

It's like a whinge but not as loud ;)

..In case you don't know, as it is a regional thing, it basically means to complain, but it a irratating fashion, like a small kid saying "but I wan't" over and over.

Also known as whining, moaning, round my parts "quit your whinging" is as used as "it was the kippers knickers" which means very good, but why kippers..and why knickers I've never known ;)

lord:

Hang on a minute, I'm getting a little confused

Good one - I ended up with a 'huh?' expression just reading it ;)

Cresshead;
You cut me up man - really, sharp humor you got there, can see your point. :D

Nemoid
11-12-2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by colkai
Nemoid,
Damn fine ideas, which I heartily agree with.
Certainly there is a chance new buyers may get a "gettings started" video for free, but allowing upgraders access to such training videos on the web would be a huge boost in getting to grips with new versions.
After all, history has shown, knowing LW4.0 doesn't mean a user would have a clue how to drive LW7 - even though an upgrade path for that existed.
With training videos, people get up to speed faster, which is good news for Newtek as well.
Even now, long-time users are surprised to discover something hidden within LW that they could have been using for a long time, but did not know about.

Oh dear - I'm starting to ramble..time for a coffee ;)

Well, you know both for starting and for learning new stuff, videos are the most direct way to show things. if you think that a simple action on the screen can show what's stored in different pages of a book, then you can clearly understand that. you can simply watch and rewatch your videos,stop them, etc, and its only a prob about organization of the video itself.and the quality of teaching of the artist wich make them, of course.
then, there are graphics way to make exaples more understandable, with closeups, arrows and other stuff. I love books very much, but when it comes to a 3D apps I find videos be the best.

so, while we have online tutorials videos in this website, and the great Desktop images dvds as well as other dvds from great users, I find that a good way for Nt would be make some DVD as well, so thežat they could earn more money and for example explain parts of the app mostly uncovered or not so well documented, in a deep way.

plus, in the community there are a lot of good artists wich could produce some great teaching stuff, and this stuff could be bought from Nt itself instead than force them to face the 3D market all alone, and making at the same time these artists more visible and the 3D video learning stuff be more compact and certified by the software house granting the great quality of the product.

this is a good marketing. new and users of different level find what they need to learn, maybe also at a good price so they have no problem for not knowing their app deeply, wich is a good condition, because an app like Lw , if well known and used 100% of its possibilities can produce astonishing works.