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View Full Version : How to get Lightwave Grass like MODO Grass



tcoursey
04-24-2013, 07:20 AM
I've not used FiberFX much since it was first released. But I did do some tests when first released. I remember a YouTube video that showed a process of getting grass from FiberFX nice and easy.

The biggest difference that happened somehwere in the new CODE is that FiberFX meshes as I understand it have to be Sub-D. This causes a problem when working with Architectural models (at least my workflow).

Is there any way to get similar results with FiberFX in Lightwave? notice the polys that are shown are irregular 4+ point models or islands. No sub-d or anything. Just add the texture and bam, nice grass!

Thanks!
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geo_n
04-24-2013, 09:35 AM
Are those modo replicators? The best grass lw has is instanced grass. No micropolydisplacement yet. Wait for kray to have its own micropolydisplacement in kray 3.0.

monovich
04-24-2013, 09:38 AM
I've used the grass instancing sample scene as a starting point for a few projects recently and I've found the grass it creates to be quite nice.

tcoursey
04-24-2013, 09:41 AM
As I understand the PRESET in MODO it's just FUR, similar to FiberFX in LW. I can certainly spray thousands of points onto a surface and use grass geometry with instancing.

I can't use the SURFACE in instancing because the instances cross through the open parts of an object, has to be SUB-D I guess.

Not interested in KRay at this point.

Thanks for the feedback...anyone else with thoughts?

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I've used the grass instancing sample scene as a starting point for a few projects recently and I've found the grass it creates to be quite nice.

I'll take a look at how those scenes react in real world situations (at least for me) In the past the sample scene works great, I agree. However when tried to apply technique to real world geometry with parking lot islands etc..etc... no go, grass everywhere! lol.

Do you have some techniques with the instancing that works for all surfaces "grass" or similar?

tcoursey
04-24-2013, 09:55 AM
Ok I pulled up some grass, added an instancer told it to be on the GRASS SURFACE, added 1000+ instances and rendered. As you can see there are at least a couple major issues with this technique for me.

1. The grass module (not that great in this sample I know) will be the same everytime. Yes I can add several instances that are different into the system, more work and still only as random as there placement and variety. Not organic.

2. LW allows us to use NGons all over the place, but certain things require us to tripple. I don't want to tripple my objects for other reasons. Not even the grass surface/layer. In this picture you can see instancing doesn't work on the ngon on the left, as I've chosen to use SURFACE as the instnace placement method.

Other Thoughts???
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tcoursey
04-24-2013, 10:05 AM
another test with instancing. I could work with this. But just have to tripple objects that I want grass on. hmm...

Can hope that fiberFX comes along with some improvements.
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djwaterman
04-24-2013, 10:31 AM
Well it does look really good at least.

geo_n
04-24-2013, 11:03 AM
how about this kind of grass?

tcoursey
04-24-2013, 12:13 PM
how about this kind of grass?
Hey that looks alot like my front lawn! weeds and all.

Yea, I guess the only way to get that will be to do the instancing technique. You could either use points and place them where you want or do the random % amount.

Just liked the simplicity of the other approach. With simplicity comes less customization and with more customization it typically requires more setup/technique/time.

Doh, this 3D stuff we all love!

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Well it does look really good at least.
Thanks. I do agree, it has a nice look. Can't argue there. Render time was not too bad at all either. Radiosity and all.
Just spending some free time working on new techniques and strategies for upcoming production.

prometheus
04-24-2013, 01:39 PM
sasquatch_lite if it works with the latest Lw versions ??
and if there´s no need for the grass to show in reflections:)
http://www.worley.com/E/Products/sasquatch/rendering.html

animation fan flying over grass..dynamics...pro version I think..
http://www.worley.com/Media/animations/sasquatch/chopper.avi

Michael

OnlineRender
04-24-2013, 01:56 PM
I created this grass using instancing and lw content http://25.media.tumblr.com/745aebea65cc4fac0858fb50838bcfe4/tumblr_mijkh1AKrA1rvbhboo1_1280.png

Lewis
04-24-2013, 03:58 PM
FiberFX won't work for large grass fields so don't waste your time wiht it, also it's too slow and to problematic for grass fileds and on to of that it won't look nearly realistic as instanced grass. Only donwside of using instacned grass on Surface is that you can't use it on N-Gons as you realized try to Triple or make them Quads.

There is WildGrass mesh in LW 11.x content (I think Matt made it) which has great grass meshes and ready for instancing.

Here is one of my older renders made with same that mesh of grass patched instanced in LW 11.

Ma3rk
04-24-2013, 06:54 PM
Now that I have LW11.5, I'll have to take another look at FiberFX and definitely instancing. Those are some nice looking examples.

When I got LW 10x, I tried for days to get FiberFX to work on a simple yard and just couldn't get it to behave. I upgraded Sasquatch to 64-bit, loaded in a several year old preset, and was 90%+ there on the first test render.

M.

adrian
04-25-2013, 08:31 AM
FiberFX won't work for large grass fields so don't waste your time wiht it, also it's too slow and to problematic for grass fileds and on to of that it won't look nearly realistic as instanced grass. Only donwside of using instacned grass on Surface is that you can't use it on N-Gons as you realized try to Triple or make them Quads.

There is WildGrass mesh in LW 11.x content (I think Matt made it) which has great grass meshes and ready for instancing.

Here is one of my older renders made with same that mesh of grass patched instanced in LW 11.

That grass looks great! Why is it whenever I use the WildGrass models the grass always looks so horribly dark at the bottom. So frustrating. What surface and lighting settings did you use for this scene? Also how many instances were used in that scene?

prometheus
04-25-2013, 09:28 AM
Let´s study Avatar grass again shall we:) not a single blade off grass is real as I undstood it.

It worries me a little that no one recommends fiberFX for grass.
Instances worries me when comparing dynamics with what you could pull of with sasquatch pro dynamics, anyone able to match dynamics with instances like this?
http://www.worley.com/Media/animatio...ch/chopper.avi

Michael

jwiede
04-25-2013, 10:24 AM
Instances worries me when comparing dynamics with what you could pull of with sasquatch pro dynamics, anyone able to match dynamics with instances like this?
http://www.worley.com/Media/animatio...ch/chopper.avi
Has anyone got any dynamics working on individual instances in 11.x? I recall lots of attempts without success in 11.0.x.

hrgiger
04-25-2013, 12:14 PM
I think if dynamics worked on instances they probably would have demoed that. Does any other software use dynamics and instancing together?

Lewis
04-25-2013, 01:11 PM
What surface and lighting settings did you use for this scene? Also how many instances were used in that scene?

Surfacing is nothign special, just gradient of lighter/darker green across grass blade but lighting is soft light/shadow and 2 bounces Global Illumination.

jwiede
04-25-2013, 05:21 PM
Does any other software use dynamics and instancing together?
If you're asking whether any other pkgs _support_ dynamics affecting instances, then yes, both C4D and Modo support that usage scenario. If that's not your question, I'm not sure what you're asking.

Red_Oddity
04-26-2013, 04:52 AM
I think if dynamics worked on instances they probably would have demoed that. Does any other software use dynamics and instancing together?

I don't think so, transformation yes, but certainly not for deformations, it's one of the drawbacks of instances (Maya and Houdini don't as far as i remember.)

Lewis
04-26-2013, 05:08 AM
Works just fine in Cinema4D, you can use Hair for geometry instances and affect it with dynamics. Also it's nice video to see massive benefits of unified app 'coz he can pick polys, points and shake it :) ;).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X8et0bqw7U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-0WeWvuXQ

skype6
04-26-2013, 06:22 AM
I can tell that I lot experimenting with instancing and it's a fantastic tool with many possibilities! There are certain flaws well as place for innovation in the future. C4D I like because it has very good dynamics and physics. I'd like to see something of these tools in the next version of LW!! These things are really needed in certain situations..

Red_Oddity
04-26-2013, 06:25 AM
Works just fine in Cinema4D, you can use Hair for geometry instances and affect it with dynamics. Also it's nice video to see massive benefits of unified app 'coz he can pick polys, points and shake it :) ;).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X8et0bqw7U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-0WeWvuXQ

Do they remain true instances? do they still use the same amount of memory as when using a single object? Of course i can deform instances in other programs, but the moment i do, they're not truly instances anymore (the output meshes don't share the same memory anymore, they can keep their input history stack/network of course.)

Lewis
04-26-2013, 06:31 AM
Do they remain true instances? do they still use the same amount of memory as when using a single object? Of course i can deform instances in other programs, but the moment i do, they're not truly instances anymore (the output meshes don't share the same memory anymore, they can keep their input history stack/network of course.)

LW instances don't use SAME amount of memory as it's single object only so i fail to see how's that important in question "can other packages use instances with dynamics" Sure it's not doubling RAM usage for each instance but it spends certain amount of RAM anyway, small but still, and on top of that LW can't do it with bullet, you can use instances but they all behave as they are single mesh i.e. repeat dynamics of main instanced object i.e. true geometry which means LW can't use instances with dynamics :(.

Maybe there is way that FiberFX could be used as in Cinema to replace fibers with geometry ? But then again FiberFX is memory hog (one of reasons why it's not usable for large grass fields) so i guess that would be hard too :(.

UnCommonGrafx
04-26-2013, 04:18 PM
That used to be in the manual as a feature.
Seems that went away and they went with the instance system, to which ffx is not yet totally hooked into.

jwiede
04-27-2013, 04:55 AM
Do they remain true instances? do they still use the same amount of memory as when using a single object? Of course i can deform instances in other programs, but the moment i do, they're not truly instances anymore (the output meshes don't share the same memory anymore, they can keep their input history stack/network of course.)
The primary benefit of instances is to reduce resource consumption over replicated geometry. Your definition of "true instances" seems to miss that, focusing instead on distinctions that seem to lack relevance to instancing's chief benefit.

chikega
05-07-2013, 08:05 AM
I wonder if Pawel Olas' Grass Generator is still relevant: http://www.polas.net/plugins/grass.php

prometheus
05-08-2013, 06:50 AM
I wonder if Pawel Olas' Grass Generator is still relevant: http://www.polas.net/plugins/grass.php

Dont think there´s any dynamics built in that..but that´s not what you ment perhaps, the Pawel Olas Grass generator is free, I haven´t tried it with LW11.5...maybe will do that.
otherwise you also have Dponts verdure tree,leaf and grass generator...also free.
http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Verdure/DP_Verdure.html
http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/Verdure/DP_Grass_Manual.htm

or if you own Lw cad theres a grass spray tool in there too.

prometheus
05-08-2013, 07:24 AM
Here´s an old avatar article..probably youvé seen it or so but anyway..check the "building the jungle"
Of course it seem to have special dedicated tools and scripts made for this huge task.
Maya and Massive and some paint effects, some ivy generator tool and some special script to replace grass/plants with dynamics when character contact was needed.

I don´t need that now though..but I could do well with a dynamic locator working on a new fiberFx feature special dedicated for grass and huge areas solely..also some sort of tree L-system:)

http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/avatar

Tobian
05-08-2013, 08:09 AM
Hmm very impressive how cinema can apply geometry to the hairs and deform like that.