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shrox
04-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Microsoft does stupid stuff like Windows 8 to condition us for our suffering in hell.

calilifestyle
04-23-2013, 02:23 PM
lol yeah i like win 8 , only because i'm used of using Android widgets . But on that note WIN 8 isn't as customizable as android and win 8 hides a lot of things with out any notification. http://www.stardock.com/products/?from=nav

Riff_Masteroff
04-23-2013, 03:32 PM
MS Win8 OS has been 'accused' of playing a major role in driving down the sales of PC's in general ( in favor of iPhones and such). Not my words, but I did read it either in the Washington Post newspaper or the Financial Times newspaper. I had thoughts to clip the articles (multiple) for future reference, but I did not.

calilifestyle
04-23-2013, 05:05 PM
yeah that's not true. i mean really, i read those articles some say Android some Apple . This why Microsoft made WIN8 RT. in hopes of getting into mobile OS. Even thought they already have a mobile OS. From what i read at the winsupersite , it was a given that business where not going to upgrade . you have have remembered Large/small business rarely upgrade OS , let alone PC. PC/desktops are like cars we tend to keep them around as long as you can get them to boot. Microsoft should have better branded what win 8 rt and win8 pro where about.

This win 8 affects the powers more then the basic user/stranded user.

cresshead
04-23-2013, 05:09 PM
win 8 is getting a update soon to bring back the start button, and i'm not joking.

microsoft should have just used windows phone for RT on the surface and kept window 8 separate for the surface pro etc
most of what people want to do thesedays can be done on a hand held computer (phone or tablet)
most just want to surf the web, check email and facebook and look at youtube
...you don't need a desktop pc to do that thesedays.

pc sales are going to shrink by a large margin an really only going to be used for productive work from now on.

shrox
04-23-2013, 06:30 PM
I am having real problems with Win8, programs stall, I have to click the close X, then wait for a try and restore dialog box, click yes, then it starts again.

I am going to buy Win7.

COBRASoft
04-23-2013, 08:06 PM
No problems here with Win8 Pro. It's fast, responsive and light compared to Win Vista/7. The 'service pack' will bring back the start button and some other goodies.
For those in trouble finding stuff, use Win key + x for a semy startbar and Win key + i for fast right panel access.

Doctor49152
04-23-2013, 09:41 PM
from what I've read (about 6 different articles now) when Windows 8.1 brings the start button back it's not going to be the 'good old one'. It will sit in the corner and look like a glowing blue ball with the new windows logo on it. But when you click on it it takes you to the 'Metro' start screen just like 8.0 does now.

I installed 8 on one of my work laptops when the beta got more polished. While there are some GREAT things in windows 8 the bad things stand inbetween you from the first boot. Like a purple wall of despair with tiles. To me there are only three things that bother me about Windows 8. But they are the big things

1 - Not being able to boot to desktop annoyed me (supposed to be an option in 8.1), This is where I do 90% of my computer work why drop me off two blocks away and make me walk! (insert Metro joke here).

2 - The Start Screen. To me the title explains the problem. It's a complete screen. The start button is a small out of the way icon. The start menu also is kind of out of the way. I could still see my desktop while accessing. Now I get thrown into some purple monstrosity that takes up my whole 27" display with ugliness+. When I install a regular windows program now it adds all the installed files to this screen as well. So I have to go and do clean up.

3 - The Easter Egg interface. From a UIX view the fastest way to get a user to interact with any interface is to actually SHOW them their options. The 'hunting to find them' approach is without a doubt the stupidest thing I've seen MS do in ages.

I rather like the way Apple keeps OS X and IOS separate but similar and I really wish MS had gone for something similar. Forcing this square-purple-pill down peoples throat so fast just annoys them. There is a difference between an APP and an application.

spherical
04-24-2013, 03:15 AM
Wait 'til you try to install an unsigned driver. Used to be that there was an option to just opt to go ahead anyway. Now, you get the hand to talk to and it aborts. Period. Only way around it is to either do an Advanced Startup and go through 3 reboots to get to the option to disable "Enforced Driver Signature Enforcement" or just nuke the thing from orbit by running two command line operations with bcdedit to disable it permanently.

UnCommonGrafx
04-24-2013, 04:28 AM
And those lines would be...

Ignoring Metro, I am finding 8 a joy over xp.

lol

safetyman
04-24-2013, 05:02 AM
If Windows 8 is stalling PC sales (as well as the Dell debacle) does that mean the price of a new PC/parts will go down? I've seen some insane deals lately (2 TB internal drives for ~ $100) so I'm hoping the prices continue to fall.

cresshead
04-24-2013, 05:25 AM
the price of pc's is due to rise in the future as reduced volume means higher component costs.

COBRASoft
04-24-2013, 06:40 AM
It will be in 2 steps. First cheaper because of overstock, later more expensive because of no stock for newer components :). Basic economics.

rwhunt99
04-24-2013, 07:24 AM
One of the biggest problem with Win8, now it takes more clicks to do what you want than Win 7 did. Even though Win8 is slightly faster, this stupidity makes it actually slower to use.

The driver issue is another major problem. Microsoft charges an arm and a leg to get driver s signed. As mentioned, now everyone must get cleared or they just won't load. This is just for Microsoft, it gates a revenue stream that was being ignored by a large number of vendors.

Microsoft has blundered so many times now, people are getting fed up and as pointed out, it is less relevant than it was just four years ago. Pressures on, hence yet another Windows "upgrade" (revenue enhancement) on the way.

Right now, tablets are far less able to swap parts out, attach peripherals and run mainstream full blown applications, but I see that changing in the future. Notice that some tablets allow you to attach to a full blown keyboard which will provide real estate for other addons and ports. this is heading back to a typical laptop style configuration in the end.

cagey5
04-24-2013, 07:35 AM
I agree, the vast majority of users have no real need for a full blown PC. As tablets get more popular they will be glad to reclaim the lost space given up to the hulking great computer sitting there.

As regards Windows 8, I doubt I'll use a Windows product again after the version I'm currently on (Win 7)

Come on Newtek, get Lightwave onto Linux and make for a simpler life for your users :)

torturebori007
04-24-2013, 07:45 AM
No problems here with Win8 Pro. It's fast, responsive and light compared to Win Vista/7. The 'service pack' will bring back the start button and some other goodies.
For those in trouble finding stuff, use Win key + x for a semy startbar and Win key + i for fast right panel access.

I have to agree here. I have had nothing but good things about it...Kind a leaning back to windows because of 8

geo_n
04-24-2013, 09:29 AM
No problems here with Win8 Pro. It's fast, responsive and light compared to Win Vista/7. The 'service pack' will bring back the start button and some other goodies.
For those in trouble finding stuff, use Win key + x for a semy startbar and Win key + i for fast right panel access.

So they are bringing the start button back. It seems the "majority" of win 8 users who insist that the start button is useless was wrong to say that if microsoft themselves will bring it back. Hopefully soon! I have two win 8 machines and only installed start8 on one.

djwaterman
04-24-2013, 10:25 AM
I installed that classic shell plugin so I can use the start menu and go straight to the desktop like the good old days and the big dumbed down splash screen remains an unknown and unexplored part of Window 8 for me. I love how quick it boots up and shuts down, but that's on my note book, when I buy the new PC I'm still not sure whether I should just get Window 7.

geo_n
04-24-2013, 10:37 AM
I didn't find any speed increase from win 7 because I compared both with a clean install. After some time my win 8 is as bloated as win7 when the hd is filled with appz and junk.

shrox
04-24-2013, 10:39 AM
When you are having problems with something like Win8, and someone else says they are not having problems, how does that help?

kopperdrake
04-24-2013, 03:02 PM
Come on Newtek, get Lightwave onto Linux and make for a simpler life for your users :)

LightWave for the Raspberry Pi :D

cagey5
04-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Funny you should say that..

http://www.zdnet.com/parallella-the-99-linux-supercomputer-7000014036/

It'll be interesting to see what people do with it.

allabulle
04-24-2013, 03:41 PM
(...)Come on Newtek, get Lightwave onto Linux and make for a simpler life for your users :)

Oh yes, please! I hear you.

BigHache
04-24-2013, 08:14 PM
One of the biggest problem with Win8, now it takes more clicks to do what you want than Win 7 did. Even though Win8 is slightly faster, this stupidity makes it actually slower to use.

:agree: I'm finding that to be Microsoft's SOP for some ungodly reason. Same thing with Office 2013 which follows the Win 8 design (if you can call it that). File-> Open used to bring up an open dialog. No more! Now they've refined the interface. Click File to slide that menu into existence, click Open to slide in a list of recently opened files, which BTW looks nothing like a file directory so why I would be expected to recognize anything in that list is beyond me, then I'm FINALLY presented with an Open button that actually brings up a dialogue.

Someone please tell them adding more clicks does not enhance usability.

COBRASoft
04-24-2013, 08:35 PM
Yeah, Office 2013 is not my favorite either. Add Visual Studio 2012 to that list too. Their new UI has something, but almost no colors... Comon, this is 2013, not 1990 with green monitors.

glebe digital
04-26-2013, 04:25 AM
Can you still turn off all that themes rubbish in W8?

BigHache
04-26-2013, 05:27 AM
Their new UI has something, but almost no colors... Comon, this is 2013, not 1990 with green monitors.

I do have to give them a little credit. They've finally created an integrated look among all their products, which is good marketing and good from a design perspective. Too bad the design is lame. This is probably the best they can accomplish though. Let's face it, Microsoft isn't a design company. As soon as they admit it the better off we'll all be. Instead of writing IE to finally render rounded corners properly, they adopt a design motif that uses solid, non-rounded corners. Double-fail!

Bill Carey
04-26-2013, 06:47 AM
:Someone please tell them adding more clicks does not enhance usability.

That and....
- Having two 'workspaces' and failing to return to the originating space after defaulting to an app in the other
- Having standard operating system / program tools take up 50% of the screen is not a move in the right direction. Outlook 2013 is the worst offender. Almost unuseable on a laptop between the message header and ribbon, but there are plenty more examples.

You just have to wonder who looked at this and said, yeah, that's great stuff. Start8 really helps, but I'm sure their primary goal in 8.1 will be to break it permanently and not to incorporate it's features.

raymondtrace
04-26-2013, 06:52 AM
When you are having problems with something like Win8, and someone else says they are not having problems, how does that help?

That helps to point out that it might be inappropriate to make a general statement that Windows 8 sucks. I'm not sure which post is being replied but count me as another who has success with both 7 and 8 . UI quirks are pretty quickly "fixed" with free third party apps.

Since the advent of XP's cartoony colors, I have been dumbing down the UI to a monochrome "classic Windows" style.

But yeah, once Lightwave fully runs on Linux, I'm there.

shrox
04-26-2013, 09:54 AM
That helps to point out that it might be inappropriate to make a general statement that Windows 8 sucks. I'm not sure which post is being replied but count me as another who has success with both 7 and 8 . UI quirks are pretty quickly "fixed" with free third party apps.

Since the advent of XP's cartoony colors, I have been dumbing down the UI to a monochrome "classic Windows" style.

But yeah, once Lightwave fully runs on Linux, I'm there.

It's not inappropriate. It does things that suck! And we are expected to be happy to pay for this? Going backwards SUCKS!

stiff paper
04-26-2013, 10:15 AM
My XP64 still works absolutely perfectly.

raymondtrace
04-26-2013, 10:32 AM
It's not inappropriate. It does things that suck! And we are expected to be happy to pay for this? Going backwards SUCKS!

My happiness is not harmed by minor expense. When I upgraded from 7 to 8 during the initial promo, I think I spent $15. I only did it because I had nothing to lose. A driver problem was preventing me from running Premiere in Win7. Premiere ran fine after the Win8 upgrade. YM--(of course)--MV.

I'm not here to sell Win8. I'm just saying it is not inherently sucky for everyone. There are valid concerns about the UI that are addressed with a variety of third party tools. I struggle with trying to remember any OS that I have not had to tweak to my liking.

Danner
04-26-2013, 10:55 AM
It's not that bad. What made me curse out loud a few times is when I looked for things and they moved them or made them inaccessible in the traditional way, for no apparent reason. Just change for change's sake it seemed. Other than that it's been fine. Two quick tips for Win8: Use the Windows key + E to open file explorer. And since they make shutting the thing down so tedious using the mouse, just use Alt F4 while on the desktop.

shrox
04-26-2013, 11:01 AM
I am having real functioning problems with Win8, not aesthetic ones.

Which I will fix by "ungrading" to Win7.

ken_g9
04-26-2013, 11:27 AM
I am having real functioning problems with Win8, not aesthetic ones.

Which I will fix by "ungrading" to Win7.

I'm not sure if it was stated already but what specific issues are you having with Windows 8? I agree it is far from perfect, but I'm quite happy with the $35 upgrade from Windows 7. I had a few bumps along the way with my Wacom Intuos 3 (horrible lag), but after finding the fix and installing an older driver, almost everything is smooth sailing now. Granted, I don't use the Metro/Modern UI. I boot straight to desktop. For me, the improvements in the underlying core of the OS is enough for me to warrant the $35 upgrade. Now if it was the current retail price, I might hold back a bit...

shrox
04-26-2013, 11:47 AM
Programs stall on opening, I have to click the red X to close window, then wait for a dialog box that asks if I want to restore the program, I click yes, and it works after that. Loading scenes in Lightwave does that often too.

raymondtrace
04-26-2013, 11:50 AM
And what does the Event Viewer have to say about the errors?

The troubleshooting steps in all previous versions of Windows still apply.

shrox
04-26-2013, 12:26 PM
And what does the Event Viewer have to say about the errors?

The troubleshooting steps in all previous versions of Windows still apply.

How might I tell that, as I am not that proficient in locating the exact indicator. I could just leave it open, and check next time it happens, which should be soon.

cagey5
04-26-2013, 01:08 PM
The funny thing is it was Newtek that got me into Linux in the first place. It was something I was only vaguely aware of before Core was announced, but that gave me a reason to finally explore an alternative to Windows.

And with Lightworks coming out on Linux in a day or three, I'll have even less reason to boot back into XP.

raymondtrace
04-26-2013, 01:18 PM
There is no need to wait for another hang. All the previous hangs have been logged and are waiting for review. In Event Viewer, drill down to Custom Views, Administrative Events. Then sort the Source column to locate "Application Hang" events. Clicking on each event row shows further details. These details can be pasted in support forums.

EDIT: While stepping through my own log on a Win7 machine, I noticed a lot of hangs with Firefox. Copying/pasting event viewer log keywords to Google has pointed me in the direction of the browser extension that was added by our corporate AV software.

alexos
04-26-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm not here to sell Win8. I'm just saying it is not inherently sucky for everyone. There are valid concerns about the UI that are addressed with a variety of third party tools. I struggle with trying to remember any OS that I have not had to tweak to my liking.

There are quite a few rather nice things within 8 and in my experience it feels, on a hardware-identical machine, somewhat smoother than Seven. Granted the double interface is an utterly stupid concept and Metro, albeit pretty, is entirely useless - and yeah, the fact that every single bit of anything you install ends up there is nothing short of ridiculous, and don't get me started on the shut down procedure. But once you're on the desktop (click! Damn) it's remarkably solid and responsive and for the most part, works like a charm; "for the most part" because we've had cases of the same program (Archicad) running perfectly well on Seven while giving everyone a few shades of hell on 8, up to the long-forgotten BSOD (which is now disguised under a friendlier mask, not that it helps) and nobody, both at MS and at Graphisoft, seems to know why. Still, perhaps because I've always kept most of my stuff on the desktop anyway, I've discovered that I don't really miss the start button all that much - in fact, I've never liked it much to begin with...

ADP.

shrox
04-26-2013, 03:42 PM
I can deal with the interface. It's the not working I don't like. Occasionally it will even just shut down the computer right after I boot up.

shrox
04-26-2013, 06:16 PM
Here is the last event.
----------------------------------
Log Name: Application
Source: Application Hang
Date: 4/26/2013 5:11:25 PM
Event ID: 1002
Task Category: (101)
Level: Error
Keywords: Classic
User: N/A
Computer: z
Description:
The program modeler.exe version 0.0.0.0 stopped interacting with Windows and was closed. To see if more information about the problem is available, check the problem history in the Action Center control panel.
Process ID: 314c
Start Time: 01ce42da249d2e4d
Termination Time: 16
Application Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\NewTek\LightWave 3D 9.6.1\Programs\modeler.exe
Report Id: d5b07e61-aece-11e2-be8d-d4bed9e6e174
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:

Event Xml:
<Event xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/win/2004/08/events/event">
<System>
<Provider Name="Application Hang" />
<EventID Qualifiers="0">1002</EventID>
<Level>2</Level>
<Task>101</Task>
<Keywords>0x80000000000000</Keywords>
<TimeCreated SystemTime="2013-04-27T00:11:25.000000000Z" />
<EventRecordID>15693</EventRecordID>
<Channel>Application</Channel>
<Computer>z</Computer>
<Security />
</System>
<EventData>
<Data>modeler.exe</Data>
<Data>0.0.0.0</Data>
<Data>314c</Data>
<Data>01ce42da249d2e4d</Data>
<Data>16</Data>
<Data>C:\Program Files (x86)\NewTek\LightWave 3D 9.6.1\Programs\modeler.exe</Data>
<Data>d5b07e61-aece-11e2-be8d-d4bed9e6e174</Data>
<Data>
</Data>
<Data>
</Data>
<Binary>430072006F00730073002D0074006800720065006100640000 000000</Binary>
</EventData>
</Event>

shrox
04-26-2013, 08:38 PM
Another!!!
-----------------------

Log Name: Application
Source: Application Hang
Date: 4/26/2013 5:13:21 PM
Event ID: 1002
Task Category: (101)
Level: Error
Keywords: Classic
User: N/A
Computer: z
Description:
The program modeler.exe version 0.0.0.0 stopped interacting with Windows and was closed. To see if more information about the problem is available, check the problem history in the Action Center control panel.
Process ID: 2eac
Start Time: 01ce42dbc56bab8c
Termination Time: 16
Application Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\NewTek\LightWave 3D 9.6.1\Programs\modeler.exe
Report Id: 19076ddd-aecf-11e2-be8d-d4bed9e6e174
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:

Event Xml:
<Event xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/win/2004/08/events/event">
<System>
<Provider Name="Application Hang" />
<EventID Qualifiers="0">1002</EventID>
<Level>2</Level>
<Task>101</Task>
<Keywords>0x80000000000000</Keywords>
<TimeCreated SystemTime="2013-04-27T00:13:21.000000000Z" />
<EventRecordID>15695</EventRecordID>
<Channel>Application</Channel>
<Computer>z</Computer>
<Security />
</System>
<EventData>
<Data>modeler.exe</Data>
<Data>0.0.0.0</Data>
<Data>2eac</Data>
<Data>01ce42dbc56bab8c</Data>
<Data>16</Data>
<Data>C:\Program Files (x86)\NewTek\LightWave 3D 9.6.1\Programs\modeler.exe</Data>
<Data>19076ddd-aecf-11e2-be8d-d4bed9e6e174</Data>
<Data>
</Data>
<Data>
</Data>
<Binary>55006E006B006E006F0077006E0000000000</Binary>
</EventData>
</Event>

BigHache
04-26-2013, 10:33 PM
I'm going to try here, keeping in mind I don't have access to Win 8 at all. Shrox can you try disabling Error Reporting service (WER) (http://www.technoon.com/how-to-enable-or-disable-problem-reporting-in-windows-8.html)?

prometheus
04-28-2013, 03:36 AM
I do have to give them a little credit. They've finally created an integrated look among all their products, which is good marketing and good from a design perspective. Too bad the design is lame. This is probably the best they can accomplish though. Let's face it, Microsoft isn't a design company. As soon as they admit it the better off we'll all be. Instead of writing IE to finally render rounded corners properly, they adopt a design motif that uses solid, non-rounded corners. Double-fail!

And may I say, I want the old hotmail look back, hate the outlook design, and why o why do they hide the log out button buried under settings, takes longer time to log out.

and no..win 8 isnīt any option for me as from what Ivé heard, when thereīs no other option but to use it, then maybe..win 7 is just fine..better than winxp, and definitly better than vista...win 2000 was my favourite though.

Michael

geo_n
04-28-2013, 04:14 AM
Was it a clean window 8 install anyway?

Philbert
04-29-2013, 01:06 AM
I love Windows 8. It's been much more stable and fast than 7 was and the Start page makes it much faster to find and load an app. I even find use for a number of the apps like Weather and News Bento. I do wish the apps would load faster and that they live tiles were more like Android Widgets. For example the People tile shows pictures of people but if I click one it doesn't go straight to that one it simply opens the app. I'm really looking forward to the update it will be great to organize the tiles better. The Start button is laughable though, it will act exactly the same as it currently does. It's just being added in to shut people up. I hope there's a way to remove it, it will just take up space on the task bar.

Oedo 808
05-13-2013, 02:44 AM
When using a Wacom on Windows 8 I can't get rid off Windows interfering with the pen, it's quite noticeable getting the drag delay moving any windows around, this can be improved by turn on the press and hold to right-click option, but I still seem to have an initial dead zone where if I click next to an edge and drag across it won't be selected and likewise when making any colour adjustments when I click and drag the RGB/HSV it will do nothing initially before jumping say from 075 the first change I'll see will be ~082. I don't see this issue in 3D-Coat or ZBrush, but LightWave doesn't seem to be blocking this new touch tablet guff very well, I don't get the modifier key pop-up in those either... am I missing something?

Anyone else experience this?

Cheers.

Philbert
05-13-2013, 03:44 AM
I don't see that . Update the Wacom drivers (http://www.wacom.com/en/support/drivers) maybe? The latest are from March 18th. I think I heard about new drivers coming soon actually that will add better support for Win8 tablets The only thing that bugs me with it is that it shows a tool tip by the cursor every time I press Ctrl, Shift, or Alt. That's a minor annoyance though.

Oedo 808
05-13-2013, 04:47 AM
I don't see that . Update the Wacom drivers (http://www.wacom.com/en/support/drivers) maybe? The latest are from March 18th. I think I heard about new drivers coming soon actually that will add better support for Win8 tablets The only thing that bugs me with it is that it shows a tool tip by the cursor every time I press Ctrl, Shift, or Alt. That's a minor annoyance though.

Bah! I guess it's just me then, thanks for responding. I have the latest driver, I've tried all mix of settings, nothing seems to fix it.

So say your background colour was 050 050 050, you could click any of the RGB values and shift it to 051 no problem?

If so there must be some setting I'm missing, and it's getting on my moobs.

Philbert
05-13-2013, 04:59 AM
Let's see, I don't generally use a tablet with LightWave so I'll try... I do have a slight delay before it catches, like I have to move the pen 3 or 4 mm before anything changes on screen, but once it does I can precisely change the number to whatever I want. I don't really notice it when dragging windows around since I usually start dragging them fairly quickly.

geo_n
05-13-2013, 05:35 AM
When using a Wacom on Windows 8 I can't get rid off Windows interfering with the pen, it's quite noticeable getting the drag delay moving any windows around, this can be improved by turn on the press and hold to right-click option, but I still seem to have an initial dead zone where if I click next to an edge and drag across it won't be selected and likewise when making any colour adjustments when I click and drag the RGB/HSV it will do nothing initially before jumping say from 075 the first change I'll see will be ~082. I don't see this issue in 3D-Coat or ZBrush, but LightWave doesn't seem to be blocking this new touch tablet guff very well, I don't get the modifier key pop-up in those either... am I missing something?

Anyone else experience this?

Cheers.

There's no fix for tablets atm and its annoying indeed. This is the best you can do for now. Read through it.

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_8-hardware/how-do-i-turn-off-pen-feedback-in-windows-8/4cbfb07b-6d19-4e86-b7fe-ae97dff3e0e2?page=2

It will still leave the tool tip by the cursor every time you press Ctrl, Shift, or Alt. But the lag is gone and so are the ripples and other issues.

BigHache
05-13-2013, 05:43 AM
Microsoft is the annoying drunk guy at the party. We keep telling him to sit down, he's drunk, but he refuses.

I have an Intuos 5 at work and Windows 7 Professional. Microsoft absolutely REFUSES to get out of the way of my Wacom driver. There's no reason in the world that if *I* install a driver for MY device Windows needs to jump in and install it's own tablet driver without ever asking me for permission, and then not allowing my driver to always do what I installed it to do. Turning off all of Microsoft's crap tablet software is a placebo. They didn't fix this in 7 so why would I purchase 8 when it's still broken?

This is a bug but Microsoft calls it a feature. After all, they know better what I want than me. 8~

Oedo 808
05-13-2013, 06:07 AM
Thanks for the replies folks,

One of the ways this manifests itself that really annoys me is in the image below, if I click and drag to the right far enough out I'll catch all three edges, but if I'm too close the first edge will hit the dead zone, and if I click on the first edge that with be selected by the tap, but the next edge will fall inside the dead zone and be missed. I miss so many point, poly and edge pick ups this way, it really f***s me off, so I was hoping perhaps I had some dodgy settings somewhere.

I have no doubt that Microsoft have chosen to ignore this and have left software developers need to block the tablet crap, Pilgway and Pixologic seem to have managed it, so unless these new Wacom drivers do it by default perhaps NT will need to look into it also.

geo_n, can you confirm that the lag fix works on Windows 8? I thought I'd tried that, but it isn't happening for some reason. Managed to get rid of that ripple crap easily enough thankfully.

Cheers.

114289

*edit*

Oh one thing I wondered, unrelated really, but is there a way to set the colour and spec etc for the default polygon colouring? I can't seem to find anything.

Red_Oddity
05-13-2013, 06:50 AM
Does changing the local group policy for tablet input/cursor still work on 8? Like it did in Window 7?

lardbros
05-13-2013, 07:03 AM
When using a Wacom on Windows 8 I can't get rid off Windows interfering with the pen, it's quite noticeable getting the drag delay moving any windows around, this can be improved by turn on the press and hold to right-click option, but I still seem to have an initial dead zone where if I click next to an edge and drag across it won't be selected and likewise when making any colour adjustments when I click and drag the RGB/HSV it will do nothing initially before jumping say from 075 the first change I'll see will be ~082. I don't see this issue in 3D-Coat or ZBrush, but LightWave doesn't seem to be blocking this new touch tablet guff very well, I don't get the modifier key pop-up in those either... am I missing something?

Anyone else experience this?

Cheers.

I get this too... most noticable when I'm using the 'Sletch' tool in Modeller. I don't get this at work on Win 7, but at home on my Win 8 using a bamboo pen and touch. I've disabled ALL of Window's built in tablet functionality, but I still get the slight pause when Windows is thinking about whether I'm going to do a long press, or draw something. It drives me mental, and makes it pretty unusable.

There are loads of web pages that go into detail about disabling functions using RegEdit... and tried all of them to no avail! Got the latest drivers too, so it's not that.

Anyone fixed this?

lardbros
05-13-2013, 07:07 AM
One thing I've just checked on my Win 7 machine here at work, is the 'Turn Windows Features on or off' within the Uninstall programs window.

On my Win 7 Machine, I have removed all the 'Tablet PC Components' and I don't get any interference at all.
Will try this at home when I get home, but I'm sure I'd done this?!

geo_n
05-13-2013, 09:25 AM
geo_n, can you confirm that the lag fix works on Windows 8? I thought I'd tried that, but it isn't happening for some reason. Managed to get rid of that ripple crap easily enough thankfully.

Cheers.

114289

*edit*



This has fixed all issues except two. The text when pressing the buttons previously by Phil, and strangely has affected the zoom in of alt+rmb that I changed using autohotkey. It stutters.
So I use the default alt+ctrl+lmb to zoom in again using a tablet.
Why newtek doesn't want to adapt the alt+rmb as default zoom like maya, 3dcoat, etc SUCKS! Pressing three buttons to zoom AND pan SUCKS, welcome RSI. Maybe lw 12.

Oedo 808
05-13-2013, 09:39 AM
Does changing the local group policy for tablet input/cursor still work on 8? Like it did in Window 7?

I have no idea, how does one go about changing the group policy?

Cheers.


This has fixed all issues except two. The text when pressing the buttons previously by Phil, and strangely has affected the zoom in of alt+rmb that I changed using autohotkey. It stutters.
So I use the default alt+ctrl+lmb to zoom in again using a tablet.
Why newtek doesn't want to adapt the alt+rmb as default zoom like maya, 3dcoat, etc SUCKS! Pressing three buttons to zoom AND pan SUCKS, welcome RSI. Maybe lw 12.

Thanks, I'll check it out more thoroughly after I've had a cup of (spelled off again durp durp) tea, my brainpower seems to be at an all time low at the moment, typos ahoy. Will be great if I can get this sorted.

@lardbros, good luck on any of your endeavours, hopefully a solution is not too far away, I have read it was easier to fix in Win 7.

*edit*

Well I must be doing something wrong, the lag goes from dragging the window around, sure, but I still get this small dead zone which can be really annoying.

@geo_n, are you sure you can increment the RGB values for the background colour (for example) in Modeler by 1 using the pen? If so... I think I'll have to reinstall and start over with the reg hacks.

Cheers.

Sanchon
05-13-2013, 07:15 PM
Here is a information and tool to make old Wacom tablets works perfectly with Win8 - http://forum.wacom.eu/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12751 . The tool is here : http://puu.sh/1X5nd

Oedo 808
05-14-2013, 01:38 AM
Here is a information and tool to make old Wacom tablets works perfectly with Win8 - http://forum.wacom.eu/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12751 . The tool is here : http://puu.sh/1X5nd

Brilliant!

I had come across this topic before but was wary of utilizing it if I could have gotten a reg hack to work, however I decided to give it a try as I just couldn't get the other options to work, and though I haven't tested it thoroughly it seems to work great.

I read someone saying they didn't need to do the .xml editing and so I tried double-clicking on the 'click' in the Wacom properties and it turned into a pull-down list with disable as an option same as for the thumb buttons!

I don't know if the lag distance scales but I often use the quickpoint mapping and this issue was a real pain.

Thanks for posting the link, and thanks to everyone else for the help too.

I'm a much more contented Oedo this morning :)

Red_Oddity
05-14-2013, 02:42 AM
run gpedit.msc, then in User Configuration->Administrative Templates->Windows Components-> Tablet PC->Cursors, set 'Turn off pen feedback' to Enabled.

That combined with disabling all Tablet Input /Tablet PC services (besides Wacom's of course) and uninstalling the Tablet PC Components via the 'Turn Windows features off' panel helped giving me back control of my wacom on Windows 7.

(It's insane this has to be done on a Desktop pc anyway, but hey, i guess MS knows what's best for us all :twak: )

Oedo 808
05-14-2013, 06:14 AM
run gpedit.msc, then in User Configuration->Administrative Templates->Windows Components-> Tablet PC->Cursors, set 'Turn off pen feedback' to Enabled.

That combined with disabling all Tablet Input /Tablet PC services (besides Wacom's of course) and uninstalling the Tablet PC Components via the 'Turn Windows features off' panel helped giving me back control of my wacom on Windows 7.

(It's insane this has to be done on a Desktop pc anyway, but hey, i guess MS knows what's best for us all :twak: )

Ahh I see, thanks, I had already done so, but perhaps I missed some service or other. While I can see the initial changes to Windows catching out a developer, I can't help but feel it's probably not a great undertaking to have the tablet drivers disable all this nonsense much as ZBrush appears to have done so when it is running. I could be doing them a disservice, but I think as the go to manufacturer in the West for tablets, Wacom has been sitting on its laurels for some time, looking at some of their responses has certainly not filled me with awe.

The little application that captures the pen click and substitutes it for a mouse click nullifies pressure sensitivity from being utilized (though it is still visibly working when you open the Wacom control panel), but as pressure matters not in LW, I can live with it for the time being.

Thanks again.

lardbros
05-14-2013, 06:25 AM
Could Newtek disable any windows touch stuff going on instead? I'm fed up with my tablet being unusable for painting... nightmare.

This error seems to be different on each person's machine.

shrox
05-14-2013, 10:54 AM
Still sucks.

Philbert
05-14-2013, 02:33 PM
run gpedit.msc, then in User Configuration->Administrative Templates->Windows Components-> Tablet PC->Cursors, set 'Turn off pen feedback' to Enabled.

That combined with disabling all Tablet Input /Tablet PC services (besides Wacom's of course) and uninstalling the Tablet PC Components via the 'Turn Windows features off' panel helped giving me back control of my wacom on Windows 7.

(It's insane this has to be done on a Desktop pc anyway, but hey, I guess MS knows what's best for us all :twak: )

I did all this and it didn't help with the lag.

geo_n
05-14-2013, 06:02 PM
It won't work on win 8. For windows 8 no such easy fix.
This is the easy way to fix it in windows 7 though.
http://viziblr.com/news/2011/8/13/fix-my-pen-makes-your-wacom-tablet-just-work-on-windows-7.html

Philbert
05-14-2013, 06:02 PM
So I set this program up, though the instructions were pretty confusing. It seems to work just fine, but do I have to run this program manually every time I start my computer?

One random thing I notice is that previously I could flick up and down to scroll web pages, and now I can't. not a big deal since I generally don't use my pen for web browsing.

Shawn Farrell
05-14-2013, 08:48 PM
Windows 8 sucks for me because SpeedEDIT won't work on my HP Envy DV-6 Laptop... :(

Oedo 808
05-15-2013, 04:29 AM
So I set this program up, though the instructions were pretty confusing. It seems to work just fine, but do I have to run this program manually every time I start my computer?

One random thing I notice is that previously I could flick up and down to scroll web pages, and now I can't. not a big deal since I generally don't use my pen for web browsing.

I think so, I only use it with LW so I start it up when I want to use LW and disable the click on the pen. I didn't have any issues with ZBrush that I noticed but I tried with that anyway and the pressure wasn't utilized, even though you can see the pressure meter changing in the Wacom panel, so it doesn't seem suitable for full time use. I just wanted to stop the pen hijinks in LW. Perhaps the next Wacom drivers will allow the tablet to function properly.

BigHache
05-15-2013, 05:35 AM
Or perhaps, following the ongoing tradition of only using every other version of Windows, Windows 9 will actually step back and let us use our tools. :D

shrox
05-15-2013, 11:35 AM
Win8 greeted me this morning by another double boot..."Sorry, we can't find your profile, a temporary one has been assigned."

coremi
05-15-2013, 12:55 PM
Win8 greeted me this morning by another double boot..."Sorry, we can't find your profile, a temporary one has been assigned."

Sorry to hear that. I do resell windows and I got windows 8 through the channel last year august when it was RTM. I find very very good and stable, I hate to see Start menu go, but actually start menu hasen't gone it was changed into metro, this is what metro is, a mega start menu. The problem is, that the software is not ready for metro so installing a lot of software required from the OS, like codecs, players, zip, acrobat, only utilities will bring 100 icons on Metro interface wich sucks big time. Windows 8 is really simple and limited, I would not recommend buying it, just upgrade to PRO. The idea is, found out a month ago, from a presentation and discution with intel and Microsoft that finally metro will completely replace desktop, and soon, like 2, 3 years. I was expecting, but no info yet so see the new windows explorer under Metro. About PC, the sales didn't decline because of windows 8, because of bad economy but because INTEL doesn't want the PC anymore on this form. At the presentetation we have asked, because we are warried, i'm selling lots of INTEL motherboards, why is INTEL leaving the motherboards market starting 2014 and how warranty bla bla bla is going forward. They said in simple words clear word that the PC doesn't offer a margin for profit anymore so all INTEL efforts will be concentrating on mobile, especially on Ultrabooks because this is what they want people to educate so they will make a bigger profit. On the other hand Microsoft did a great thing, an ecosystem, Phone with Tablet with Laptop with PC and probably with Xbox infinity or how it is called. I love the versatility of my Android phone, great for fun but I hate that I have 20 apps with 25 interfaces, one will swipe from left, another will have a pressed button for a few sec, another does thing another way, some icons similar across apps do different things and so on, a great gadget, but annoying productivity. Can't wait to buy an windows 8 phone to use same software with the same interface across everything I do, and also across Microsoft web accounts, cloud etc...

UnCommonGrafx
05-15-2013, 04:09 PM
Windows 8 sucks for me because SpeedEDIT won't work on my HP Envy DV-6 Laptop... :(



It AIN'T windows 8 in that scenario.

ken_g9
05-16-2013, 05:06 AM
I've been bothered by this delay as well. There was a forum post (forgot where) that advised to install an older Windows 7 driver. Did that and all my issues about the delay are gone. I'm sticking to this driver even if Wacom updates their Windows 8 driver.

chikega
05-16-2013, 09:27 AM
Win 8 has totally mucked up my permissions on my C drive. I can't access anything now even though I'm an administrator. I've researched everything for the last 3 days and always a dead end. I can't refresh Win 8, nothing. I've had to order Win 8 Disk from Microsoft and reload the OS. I can't find my original recovery disk for my computer which had Win 7. :(

DrStrik9
05-16-2013, 02:52 PM
Microsoft does stupid stuff like Windows 8 to condition us for our suffering in hell.

:thumbsup: Haha!!! Yes, Microsaur is actually satan. :+)

jrandom
05-17-2013, 04:24 PM
At my place of employment I sit near the IT department. I've been listening to them rant about Windows 8 all day. Apparently, today was their first day working with it and they are very much not happy with it.

geo_n
05-17-2013, 08:58 PM
Windows 8.1 is coming and free so hopefully it addresses some issues.

shrox
05-17-2013, 09:04 PM
It just occurred to me that Win8 is like BOB. No one that either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob

"It was one of Microsoft's more visible product failures. Microsoft's Steve Ballmer mentioned Bob as an example of a situation where "we decided that we have not succeeded and let's stop."

The hated font Comic Sans was created for, but was not used in Microsoft Bob.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegWedG-jk4

Philbert
05-19-2013, 02:47 AM
Bob was terrible. Win8 is the most secure and fastest version of Windows to date. It's also easier to use than previous versions.

Oedo 808
05-19-2013, 06:11 AM
I've been bothered by this delay as well. There was a forum post (forgot where) that advised to install an older Windows 7 driver. Did that and all my issues about the delay are gone. I'm sticking to this driver even if Wacom updates their Windows 8 driver.

It might be worth giving this a bash, can you let me know which driver version you are using?

Cheers.


Bob was terrible. Win8 is the most secure and fastest version of Windows to date. It's also easier to use than previous versions.

The internals seem good, but I find that Metro rapidly becomes a mess when you are using a lot of applications.

geo_n
05-19-2013, 06:39 AM
Metro ui is obnoxious and too in your face, covers the whole screen who's idea was that? Kids and "old" kids love it because anything that you can swoosh in public and cafe's is cool.

shrox
05-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Metro ui is obnoxious and too in your face, covers the whole screen who's idea was that? Kids and "old" kids love it because anything that you can swoosh in public and cafe's is cool.

It's like it was designed by PlaySkool Toys.

scallahan1
05-19-2013, 01:46 PM
I remember MS Bob. I was asked to install it on a friend's PC after I sold them my old PC. I tried to talk them out of it, quoting system resources and all that jazz. They still wanted it. I reluctantly gave in. Lame!

Steve-o

EDIT: Hah! I got 1:42 into that video and found it too painful to watch. :)

Philbert
05-19-2013, 08:46 PM
The internals seem good, but I find that Metro rapidly becomes a mess when you are using a lot of applications.

I don't know what you're doing to it, I have about 70 icons on my Start page, both programs and apps, and it's nice and organized. Also faster to access things than it was with 7. That said, I can't wait for 8.1 to come along and make it even better.

Of course how much time do you spend with the Start Page on the screen anyway? 5 seconds each time you need to open a program? Less?

kopperdrake
05-20-2013, 03:52 PM
I'd never heard of Microsoft Bob. I watched that video for a minute or two, expecting the joke to become obvious. Then I realised it was a serious bit of software!

The mind boggles.

geo_n
08-15-2013, 09:04 AM
Just bought a touch enabled windows 8 laptop. What a horrible os for touch screen. Lol. Didn't notice how horrible windows 8 was since I was using it as a normal desktop, laptop os. With a touch enabled laptop its useless. Changing the volume on windows media player, using office appz, etc, most software on windows is not really designed for touch so its so useless. Apple got it right not making a dual purpose os.
Stay away from touch enabled windows laptops. :D

jrandom
08-15-2013, 11:41 AM
I just bought a Windows 8 laptop specifically to play Kerbal Space Program (its physics code is single-threaded and doesn't work so well on my Mac Pro -- it's also why I've pretty much dropped out of sight -- when I'm not at work, I'm in simulated space), and Windows 8 is just awful. Hate it. Worst OS this side of Windows ME.

bobakabob
08-15-2013, 01:44 PM
About to order a new 64 bit workstation soon for LW and Zbrush. Was going to go for Win8 but from reading this forum it sounds like er, a bad idea.

Philbert
08-15-2013, 01:46 PM
Win 8 is an awesome OS. I can't imagine what people are talking about. I was happy with the current WIn8 then 8.1 Preview came out so I'm running that and even more happy. I can't wait for the official release.

prometheus
08-15-2013, 01:52 PM
I would stay away from windows 8 as long as possible, but then again ..thatīs only from what Ive heard and not first hand experience like those from Philbert...for me, general research around how it works and the rumour feedback outways those few saying it is awesome.

Michael

Philbert
08-15-2013, 02:10 PM
I'd suggest going to a store like Best Buy and playing with it on a computer there. Using both mouse and touch screen. If you talk to actual users there are hardly a "few" who like it. Most of those who dislike it haven't actually used it. Or have used it for a few minutes and said it's horrible before giving it a fair chance. I will admit it took me a day or so to get used to how things work now, but once I did it's a lot faster and easier to access things. Not to mention the OS is faster in general and more secure. For example my boot time is now like 20 seconds when Win7 took well over a minute. Of course I'm on a 6 year old PC.

jrandom
08-15-2013, 02:12 PM
Internally, it's fairly stable as far as OS's go, but you still have to do the "find the 800 incredibly obscure and hidden settings to get basic functionality up and running correcty" stage. I spent an entire day getting my new laptop to work they way it should have out-of-the-box. My biggest gripe with Windows 8 is the UI design and location of functionality and settings. I have to constantly google to find out where a lot of the settings are, which is ridiculous. On Mac OS X, if I don't know where a setting or command is I can usually find it on my own very quickly -- it's pretty consistent and very intuitive.

Windows 8 feels like it was designed by a bunch of bickering committees that all hated each other.

There is one feature of Window 8 that I like: from that starting "panes" thingy you're greeted with (including adverts! friggin' ADVERTS! ARHG!!), if you start typing, Windows 8 will immediatly start searching your local machine for programs and documents. That's pretty slick.

saranine
08-15-2013, 04:37 PM
I will be using windows 7 till the end of days. I don't care if windows 8 is faster, more secure or anything else. I haven't got the time to mess around with learning a new OS. I also couldn't get the Win 8 consumer preview to work at all, either dual boot or a virtual box. The preview even tried to take over my entire OS when I tried to dual boot it. I also don't want to become an app store junkie adjunct. If I wanted that I would become an apple head. The only point behind Windows is to put you in front of an apps store to get more money from you. That's it. All else is a useful byproduct. I don't want to be an appie, app trendy yuppie app slave. I want to be me. I want to be free. I will not sell my soul to Microsoft. Begone evil app store. Go. May you be banished to the depths of Hades.

geo_n
08-15-2013, 06:02 PM
I'd suggest going to a store like Best Buy and playing with it on a computer there. Using both mouse and touch screen. If you talk to actual users there are hardly a "few" who like it. Most of those who dislike it haven't actually used it. Or have used it for a few minutes and said it's horrible before giving it a fair chance. I will admit it took me a day or so to get used to how things work now, but once I did it's a lot faster and easier to access things. Not to mention the OS is faster in general and more secure. For example my boot time is now like 20 seconds when Win7 took well over a minute. Of course I'm on a 6 year old PC.

I have been using it for a long time on desktop and old laptop. My issue is with using it as a touch os. As a desktop os its fine except for the wacom issues which could be random.
As a touch os its just a gimmick for hipsters in coffee shops. My new touch enabled laptop is useless when using typical appz for windows.
Its funny how I only use the metro menu with touch and have to use a mouse for everything else. The touch feature is there so I use it just for the sake of it. But no way you can use a windows 8 os and its appz without a mouse unlike IOS and Android which is great for touch experience.

You will only realise how it sucks for touch when you use it on a daily basis. There's too many basic issues with most typical win 8 appz. Try resizing an app window using touch. Lol.

Microsoft Surface is on big sale. Its probably because its not doing well and they're getting rid of that expensive crap.

jrandom
08-15-2013, 06:10 PM
I started with MS-DOS 2.1. I have used (on a regular basis or as a primary operating system) MS-Dos 2.1 - 4.0, MS Windows 2.something, 3.0, 3.1, NT, 95, 98, ME, 2000 server, Vista, 7, 8, Mac OS 7, 9, 10.1-10.8, and about a zillion different distributions of Linux starting in 1995 and used as a primary OS on at least one machine until 2007.

So I'd hardly say I'm biased or "trendy". User-interface-wise, OS X still blows the rest out of the water at this point in time. Mac OS 9 was crufty and buggy. Windows Vista was a trainwreck, 7 is usable but highly cluttered in that over-engineered-but-not-designed Microsoft fashion, and Windows 8 is just a catastrophe in almost every way you can interact with it. If you "like" Windows 8, it's because you've never fully used a better OS and don't understand just how much time and mental frustration you save by using something with a clean design. I'm backing this up with a lifetime of using all these different operating systems starting back when I was in the 3rd grade.

Davewriter
08-15-2013, 06:58 PM
I am to understand that, yes the Surface units will be having some rather "clear the shelf" sales going on, and that there will not be any new production runs done with them. Not that Microsoft is getting out of the tablet field, just that they are going to "rethink" their approach.
So if you like them touch screens - prices are a dropping.

geo_n
08-15-2013, 07:18 PM
Yep big price drops for Surface.
I was tempted but bought the asus vivo since its half price(on discount) with nearly the same specs.
They have to abandon windows desktop appz and start from scratch with new apps designed for touch. Problem is windows is 99.9% legacy appz. They're trying to do it with windows RT but its not clicking.

saranine
08-15-2013, 07:18 PM
Jrandom, I appreciate your extent of experience with different computer systems. I'd like to say some things that I was going to start a new thread about.

I left school knowing nothing about computers in the early 1990's. The first computer that I had was in 1993. It was an Apple with Clarisworks. I liked it. But I had to change to Windows in 1995 because in those days apples lacked the Co-Processor that was needed to number crunch. Maths software was also written only for Windows. I had to use a maths DOS micro-program that came with the Anderrsen, Sweeney and Williams book "introduction to management science". So with reluctance I left the apple world and have been in Windows ever since.

Now I am trying to help a person in his 60's use a computer. He uses Windows 7. He was not brought up with computers. He cannot grasp the concept that if a document is minimised that it hasn't vanished. He often by accident minimises his document and then panics about it having "gone". Each time he phones me up and I have to come to his house and restore the document. He is acting intelligently. He's spent his whole life with things that vanish if you can't see them any more. To him that is normal. So to me it's not him; it's the fault of the computer architecture/OS. It should cater for him. What about say a function that brings the document to his notice when it's minimised?

So what is windows 8 doing for him? Nothing! And take the start button from him? Sweet Jesus. He would literally chuck the computer out the window.

I see nothing of any value for him in Windows 8. App store? He can't surf the net. Apps are no use to him.

jrandom
08-15-2013, 07:39 PM
I think Windows 8's biggest failing is it's sheer inconsistency in the design. Want to execute some simple command or find a simple thing? Well now, it could be in the menu, or a button on the title bar, or a button in one of the ribbons accessed by things that look like menus, the app menu, the right-click menu on the file explorer window, possibly the screen's right-click menu, the system tray, or buried somewhere deep in the control panel. Is it a device? Or maybe hardware! That's right, devices and hardware expose completely different sets of functionality! Or maybe you need to mouse over to the upper/lower left side of the screen for that pop-out toolbar. On the right side you have a completely different pop-out toolbar. Or maybe the primary bottom app bar. Or maybe the tiled "Start" screen, which is a mess of "where is that one tile I'm looking for". Oh hey, the screen kinda scrolls, but you'd never know that unless you accidentally moved the mouse over to the edge of the screen.

This might actually work except there's no consistency. Things are flung into the far corners of Windows willy-nilly. The only way to know where things are is to memorize quite literally dozens and dozens of arbitrary placements. There's hardly any rhyme or reason to where things are -- the level of failure of design is staggering. I am extremely computer literate, being a part of the first generation to grow up with computing devices, and I am constantly fighting with this OS just to do regular everyday tasks.

So I'm boggled by people who step up to Windows 8's defense. As best I can tell, they're enemy propaganda droids from the Evil Future sent back to wreak some kind of bizarre and horrible practical joke on the human race, because no other explanation makes any kind of rational sense. :)

shrox
08-15-2013, 07:52 PM
...So I'm boggled by people who step up to Windows 8's defense. As best I can tell, they're enemy propaganda droids from the Evil Future sent back to wreak some kind of bizarre and horrible practical joke on the human race, because no other explanation makes any kind of rational sense. :)

Boggled and Googled am I. Not to mention how about every fourth boot, it doesn't recognize who I am until I restart.

jrandom
08-15-2013, 08:06 PM
Sometimes it decides not to route sound through my HDTV. I can only run fullscreen apps on the "primary" screen (in this case, the TV), but as soon as I switch to a program on the local laptop monitor, the fullscreen app minimizes. Why? Who wrote this thing??

rwhunt99
08-15-2013, 08:12 PM
75% of large companies are still on Win XP. A tech article I read said that the Win 8 RT is DOA. I personally think it is atrocious, it makes you work two to three times as hard to do the same things you could on Win 7. In fact there is no reason whatsoever to upgrade, in fact it is recommended to downgrade to Win 7 if you get a computer with it on it. Unless you just want to do social media, do not get Win 8 at all. That said, they did actually make some improvements with the new 8.1 release, which will help the afflicted v8 owners. I would still get Win 7 for any new computer you get.

saranine
08-15-2013, 08:51 PM
The only good thing that I can see in Win 8 is its support for 3D printing. That is a rare instance of vision for the future by Microsoft.

There is a computer security expert who appears on the Leo Laporte radio program. The guy has a moustache. Forgotten the name. Anyway, he said this year that he still uses Windows XP because there is no security benefit to later versions of windows; to him it is basically the same dressed up computer architecture!!!! Amazing. That someone with that degree of computer experience still uses Win XP! It doesn't say a lot for Vista, 7 or 8 :)

jasonwestmas
08-15-2013, 08:56 PM
xp is horrible, I would be on osx if we still had to use that junk. Windows7 is such a smooth ride for me. I'm speaking strictly as an 3D artist that does a little bit of scripting when I need it.

rwhunt99
08-15-2013, 09:14 PM
The only good thing that I can see in Win 8 is its support for 3D printing. That is a rare instance of vision for the future by Microsoft.

There is a computer security expert who appears on the Leo Laporte radio program. The guy has a moustache. Forgotten the name. Anyway, he said this year that he still uses Windows XP because there is no security benefit to later versions of windows; to him it is basically the same dressed up computer architecture!!!! Amazing. That someone with that degree of computer experience still uses Win XP! It doesn't say a lot for Vista, 7 or 8 :)

I would have to say that is false; they completely redid the whole kernel in Windows Vista, and reworked things to eliminate all (most) of the security holes from Win XP and continued it in Win 7 which is basically a Vista patch to fix their botched rollout in Vista. There is a developing history of every other version needs a rework in order to sell it. There is no real need to come out with a new OS version every 18 months. It is simply to fill their coffers.

nemofish
08-15-2013, 09:51 PM
I wouldn't update my system to Windows 8.

djwaterman
08-15-2013, 10:13 PM
I've been using it since before the beginning of the year on a new laptop. Hated it at first, but once I installed the classic shell plugin I can use it like old times and I do like the boot up time. I can honestly say I have never used the window 8 UI as it is meant to be used, or rather I have forgotten what I'd learn't in order to find and download the plugin. Are they intending to bring back the start menu in the next version, or have they already solved it in the updates? Yeah that weird panels touchscreen layout has bad move written all over it, I especially haaaate all those news and music panels designed for people that need some corporate service to tell them what's hot at the moment, yuk! I think it's more secure as I don't run any anti virus apart from Windows defender that comes with it.

It has it's good points and I don't think there are any issues regarding 3D software performance, but I'm still on the fence because of the stupid simplified layout, I feel that has to evolve into something more intuitive. I'm getting a PC soon and have to decide whether to go with Windows 8 or not, I'm not totally sure what I'll decide, my main thing that I feel is good are boot up times and security.

wesleycorgi
08-15-2013, 10:51 PM
I hate Windows 8 as a desktop OS, but find it a great Phone OS — I actually prefer Win 8 on my Nokia Lumia (my work phone) vs. my iPhone (my personal phone) because I can focus on the 3 tasks (telephony, email, and instant messaging) that I need for work purposes.

Here's what I've concluded, though: Win 8 wasn't made for us old curmudgeons (or at least me), but for the youngins'. My 9 and 11 year old kids love the experience — they've been growing up in an iOS/Android world. They don't want to be bogged down by an OS and just want access to the stuff they are interested in: Instagram, Youtube, Minecraft, etc. They could care less about menu systems, lots of typing, etc.

geo_n
08-15-2013, 11:29 PM
I hate Windows 8 as a desktop OS, but find it a great Phone OS — I actually prefer Win 8 on my Nokia Lumia (my work phone) vs. my iPhone (my personal phone) because I can focus on the 3 tasks (telephony, email, and instant messaging) that I need for work purposes.

Here's what I've concluded, though: Win 8 wasn't made for us old curmudgeons (or at least me), but for the youngins'. My 9 and 11 year old kids love the experience — they've been growing up in an iOS/Android world. They don't want to be bogged down by an OS and just want access to the stuff they are interested in: Instagram, Youtube, Minecraft, etc. They could care less about menu systems, lots of typing, etc.

That's just it. Touch OS are meant for a different purpose. More on media viewing, consumption which kids usually do.
Earlier in the thread I said win 8 was ok. I didn't really think that win 8 would suck prior to buying a touch enable lappy. After three weeks using a touch lappy, personally I think the touch feature in win 8 is useless as a work os. Try working with excel without a mouse, sucks. Basically any app that is typical for win 7 users suffers major usage with a touch os.

geo_n
08-15-2013, 11:43 PM
I wouldn't update my system to Windows 8.

Probably a good idea if there's no immediate need to upgrade. Plus some people are having issues with their wacom tablets.

jwiede
08-16-2013, 04:01 AM
I would have to say that is false; they completely redid the whole kernel in Windows Vista, and reworked things to eliminate all (most) of the security holes from Win XP and continued it in Win 7 which is basically a Vista patch to fix their botched rollout in Vista.

Yep, not sure who this so-called "expert" was, but he couldn't be more wrong. Windows from Vista onwards is _vastly_ more secure than XP, from the most fundamental levels of the kernel upwards. The amount of development effort put towards that rework has been staggering, but it has definitely paid off.

wesleycorgi
08-16-2013, 05:48 AM
Try working with excel without a mouse, sucks. Basically any app that is typical for win 7 users suffers major usage with a touch os.

Yup. I work with insanely smart network engineers and developers. I've never seen so many adults so confused and frustrated when they have to use my department's Win 8 loaded laptops that are used for trade shows. Microsoft has done a good job of training us for decades on how we should interact with software.

I'm a Mac user. So I'm hoping Apple learns Microsoft's lesson and understands that is a mistake to evolve their desktop OS into iOS.

BambooPutty
08-16-2013, 06:23 AM
Isn't Windows 8 an OS for mobile phones and tablets? I don't think it's meant for a desktop or laptop computer.

shrox
08-16-2013, 08:25 AM
Isn't Windows 8 an OS for mobile phones and tablets? I don't think it's meant for a desktop or laptop computer.

It's shipped on every new PC.

ken_g9
08-16-2013, 09:37 AM
Probably a good idea if there's no immediate need to upgrade. Plus some people are having issues with their wacom tablets.

I don't have any issues anymore with my Wacom after installing an older Windows 7 driver. However I'm surprised that this isn't resolved yet officially.

- - - Updated - - -


Yep big price drops for Surface.
I was tempted but bought the asus vivo since its half price(on discount) with nearly the same specs.
They have to abandon windows desktop appz and start from scratch with new apps designed for touch. Problem is windows is 99.9% legacy appz. They're trying to do it with windows RT but its not clicking.

Which Surface? Pro or the RT? The Surface Pro with the Wacom digitizer can be a poor man's Cintiq. :P

Windows RT...dead OS for me. I don't know why they didn't just scale the Windows Phone 8 OS for tablets running ARM instead of having 3 different OSes.

geo_n
08-16-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't have any issues anymore with my Wacom after installing an older Windows 7 driver. However I'm surprised that this isn't resolved yet officially.

- - - Updated - - -



Which Surface? Pro or the RT? The Surface Pro with the Wacom digitizer can be a poor man's Cintiq. :P

Windows RT...dead OS for me. I don't know why they didn't just scale the Windows Phone 8 OS for tablets running ARM instead of having 3 different OSes.

What tablet are you using? If its old like my 5 year old bamboo first gen then we're the lucky few.
SPro is down 20000yen. SRT not sure didn't check since I wanted to run normal windows appz but after three weeks I can say for me touch screen with "legacy" appz(99.9% of windows ecosystem) is crap.

COBRASoft
08-16-2013, 05:37 PM
Win8 all the way and super happy with it. New hardware, new software, no problem at all! Soon 8.1 and this will be even better normally.

jeric_synergy
08-16-2013, 05:48 PM
Windows 8 feels like it was designed by a bunch of bickering committees that all hated each other.
If YOU worked at M$ wouldn't you be filled with hate? --Seriously, I have never heard anything good about it, and subcontracting for them is just as miserable.

COBRASoft
08-16-2013, 06:48 PM
I'm wondering why so many people have problems with Windows.
I used following OS's without any problems Win2000, XP, Vista, 7 and 8. All in 64-bit.
Software on those machines: Visual Studio, MSOffice, Adobe products, LightWave, SQL Server, ... And, importantly, no games :)!

jrandom
08-16-2013, 07:17 PM
I'm wondering why so many people have problems with Windows.

I listed some very good reasons a few posts up. :)



... And, importantly, no games :)!

I made the horrible mistake of installing Kerbal Space Program. It has eaten my life.

COBRASoft
08-16-2013, 07:53 PM
JRandom, I understand your frustrations about consistency. The problem is that ALL OS's, apps, ... have those problems in some way (the one more than the other, I agree).

The first thing I do when installing a new Windows OS is look for available shortcuts (Windows + key). This way I found Windows+X gives a nice little menu with interesting stuff. The right toolbar can be called with Windows+I. I know, this shouldn't be the way to do things, but as a developer, I'm mainly on the keyboard with my hands, so shortcuts are my 'life' in any application. MS should stick with their Ribbon for some time. At first I hated it, but after I implemented it in my own ERP, my customers just loved it.

Besides, Win8 uses a lot less resources than Win7 and Win8 is also faster (in my experience). I hate the Metro startup screen. So, a spacebar press, enter my password and simple Windows key to go to the desktop and get 'rid' of Metro. I heard Win8.1 will let you boot in 'Desktop' right from the start. Oh yeah, and I use DOpus :D!

shrox
08-16-2013, 08:37 PM
Just today, I had to boot twice, Win8 could find my profile...

geo_n
08-16-2013, 10:40 PM
Win8 all the way and super happy with it. New hardware, new software, no problem at all! Soon 8.1 and this will be even better normally.

No problem with wacom lag and the alt,ctrl,shft is always there even after registry editing? So far my friends have problems with their highend wacom tabs.
For the record I have no problem with windows 8 except if its going to be used as a touch os like IOS and Android. For that its really horrible.

BigHache
08-17-2013, 06:03 AM
For the record I have no problem with windows 8 except if its going to be used as a touch os like IOS and Android. For that its really horrible.

Wait, so you're only issue with Windows 8 is the main intention of the new UI elements? That's kind of funny.

geo_n
08-17-2013, 07:12 AM
Wait, so you're only issue with Windows 8 is the main intention of the new UI elements? That's kind of funny.

Microsoft aint finding the awful sales of surface pro funny though. :D
Not exactly just the new UI elements, which is another issue :D. They're selling surface pro and other oem has similar tablet only devices based on windows 8 pro that has 99.9% windows 7 and windows past software. If you try using appz with surface pro, etc with touch which is their marketting strategy, good luck trying to do the basic thing with touch with "legacy" appz. Touch is not even accurate for work imho so mouse and wacom tablets will not disappear.
Complaints on the web regarding metro ui is not a fluke. Not everyone wants a big ui that covers the work ui.
I got rid of metro and was ok with windows 8 as a desktop os since its slightly faster than windows 7 but as a touch os :compbeati:compbeati I wouldn't recommend paying the premium for touch enabled laptops, mine was just 400usd on discount which is just for testing what it would be like to have a touch lappy. Now I know it sucks.
Will mac pros and mac air have touch enabled panels soon? That will be the same crap to deal with in osx.

COBRASoft
08-17-2013, 10:47 AM
The other day I was looking for a nice Touch Screen with IPS panel 30" 2560x1600... Didn't even find something with decent quality. So touch is far off for me to be honest. I talked with houndreds of customers about touch. NOBODY was interested! Touch is nice for smartphones, there it does what it is supposed to do. For laptops/desktop computers a mouse is more precise.

prometheus
08-17-2013, 11:15 AM
I hate the touch device, I have it disabled on my portable computer, prefer the mouse still.
Touch screens for interactive displays and mobile devices is cool and based upon situations where you do not sit in front of a computer with a table so it works best there, or being in bed with your beloved
portable computer:) then touching is okay:), otherwise let it be.

Michael

shrox
08-17-2013, 11:22 AM
Hold your arms out in front of yourself for 10 minutes while acting like you are using a PC touch screen.

Wasn't that fun?

prometheus
08-17-2013, 11:32 AM
Hold your arms out in front of yourself for 10 minutes while acting like you are using a PC touch screen.

Wasn't that fun?

Im working on a steady arm support design for that, wonīt cost much:)
Soon we will also see implanted brain chip that can control robot arms for you, so you donīt have to use your own arms, you can do other things with the arms while you multitask control the robot arms with your brain while browsing etc:)

jasonwestmas
08-17-2013, 11:33 AM
Hold your arms out in front of yourself for 10 minutes while acting like you are using a PC touch screen.

Wasn't that fun?

Makes me tired. I'll keep my exercises outside of work. :)

shrox
08-17-2013, 11:38 AM
Win8 for PCs is just not ergonomic.

prometheus
08-17-2013, 11:45 AM
But isnīt it easy just to turn off the touch screen and make it work as usuall with mouse? if it isnīt ..I would call it a disaster.

shrox
08-17-2013, 12:11 PM
But isnīt it easy just to turn off the touch screen and make it work as usuall with mouse? if it isnīt ..I would call it a disaster.

I mean the premise of the touch screen in the same orientation as a typical PC setup does not work well ergonomically. Imagine typing that way.

DrStrik9
08-17-2013, 12:42 PM
I mean the premise of the touch screen in the same orientation as a typical PC setup does not work well ergonomically. Imagine typing that way.

Agreed. But it probably sells computers at Best Buy. :-/

jasonwestmas
08-17-2013, 01:15 PM
Touch screen is for people who don't want to work very hard with their majical viewing windows. So typing is out anyway. :)

shrox
08-17-2013, 01:51 PM
I don't like how the user's hands are actually in the way of your view with the touch screen either, the cursor doesn't obscure my view of the workspace. Let's see, what else don't I like? Oh, all the screaming, bad smell and sparks in the middle of the night. I am sure its Win8.

spherical
08-17-2013, 02:04 PM
I hate the Metro startup screen. So, a spacebar press, enter my password and simple Windows key to go to the desktop and get 'rid' of Metro. I heard Win8.1 will let you boot in 'Desktop' right from the start.

An interesting thing has begun happening with my 32-bit. At WinStart, let the Metro screen sit there for about 10 seconds and it disappears to the desktop all on its own. I have Classic Start Menu installed, which brings back Win7 and earlier features that we all have grown accustomed to over so many years. It has a check box to Skip Metro Screen but it is off, always has been.

geo_n
08-17-2013, 02:12 PM
But isnīt it easy just to turn off the touch screen and make it work as usuall with mouse? if it isnīt ..I would call it a disaster.

It is and now I just completely ignore my laptops touch screen. But if you did that then windows 8 with its cool touch metro feature becomes superfluous.

jrandom
08-17-2013, 02:16 PM
I mean the premise of the touch screen in the same orientation as a typical PC setup does not work well ergonomically. Imagine typing that way.

This problem is what killed the original touchscreen computer designs twenty years ago, and saw the rise of the term "gorilla arms" (which is what you'd need to be able to use such a system). For some reason nobody went with the obvious solution of having touchscreen laying horizontal and so they never caught on until touchscreen phones and tablets hit big.

shrox
08-17-2013, 02:53 PM
This problem is what killed the original touchscreen computer designs twenty years ago, and saw the rise of the term "gorilla arms" (which is what you'd need to be able to use such a system). For some reason nobody went with the obvious solution of having touchscreen laying horizontal and so they never caught on until touchscreen phones and tablets hit big.

Even the original Star Trek had similar panels slanted at a comfortable angle.

pinkmouse
08-18-2013, 03:11 AM
I may be strange, (well, I am a mac user;) ), but I just don't get the idea of touch in a desktop environment. Why on earth would I want to get greasy fingermarks all over my nicely calibrated monitors?

COBRASoft
08-18-2013, 03:20 AM
^^ agreed.

But, the idea of live 'tiles' is certainly not bad. I use it in my ERP after login. The users can see the most used modules in a structures tile way, with interesting info on them. Although that part can be used with touch, everything is easy accessible with the mouse like it should be for a desktop app.

geo_n
08-18-2013, 05:45 AM
I may be strange, (well, I am a mac user;) ), but I just don't get the idea of touch in a desktop environment. Why on earth would I want to get greasy fingermarks all over my nicely calibrated monitors?

Wonder how many mac users would pay the premium for a touch screen macpro or air? Will apple even offer it soon? I have no doubt basic interaction with older appz would be annoying with touch screens.

jrandom
08-18-2013, 09:43 AM
Wonder how many mac users would pay the premium for a touch screen macpro or air? Will apple even offer it soon? I have no doubt basic interaction with older appz would be annoying with touch screens.

I wouldn't. Touchscreen is great for tablets and smaller, but a regular laptop? Nope.

Philbert
08-18-2013, 11:33 AM
I may be strange, (well, I am a mac user;) ), but I just don't get the idea of touch in a desktop environment. Why on earth would I want to get greasy fingermarks all over my nicely calibrated monitors?

That's why it's great to have a choice. A mouse still works just as well, even better, than it did with Win7.

spherical
08-18-2013, 03:05 PM
Agree on the touching my normally pristine monitors with oily fingers as being a dumb assumption, but people who calibrate their monitors aren't the segment of the market they're looking at with touch.

Where they really screwed the pooch is the Start screen with tiles that are not sizable to how you want your system to look and function. being able to drop the tile size to 80% or less, merely by narrowing the padding around the actual icon, and sneak the whole grid up the screen just a tiny bit and you can easily fit more rows in. No way to create a hierarchy of tiles. Tiles that expand to reveal tiles within them is something that never crossed their minds. I know that many people just accept where Windows puts start menu shortcuts when it installs an application and it grows into a multi-sub-column mess about 100 icons long. I go through quite a bit of reorganization with the standard start menu to group shortcuts where they make the most sense; drastically shrinking the length and number of submenus that I have to wade through to get to what I want. Seems that near zero user research was done on this. With the addition of Classic Start Menu, I get this functionality back or I'd be climbing the walls.

COBRASoft
08-18-2013, 03:30 PM
For this I use a DOpus Toolbar docked at the bottom. No matter what Windows Version, it will behave and organize the way I want it to, have the icons I like at the size I want. Submenu's in the way I see fit :).

saranine
08-18-2013, 08:39 PM
Windows 7 sucks. Windows 8 sucks for the same reason; in Win 7 I had to disable the windows + X commands with an obscure gpedit.msc process that you would never find by accident.

In the early 90's the buzzword was "user friendly" computers. User unfriendly computers are still the norm.

ken_g9
08-19-2013, 12:40 AM
What tablet are you using? If its old like my 5 year old bamboo first gen then we're the lucky few.
SPro is down 20000yen. SRT not sure didn't check since I wanted to run normal windows appz but after three weeks I can say for me touch screen with "legacy" appz(99.9% of windows ecosystem) is crap.

Wacom Intuos 3. Works just like it worked in Windows 7.

I generally don't have any problems with Windows 8. I understand where most of the resentment comes from but on my desktop PC, I live in the desktop part of Windows 8 so all is good, even better than Windows 7.

Wait, Surface Pro is down 20,000 yen or down TO 20,000 yen? If it's the latter, that's a steal! I'd grab one next month when I get to Tokyo. :P

geo_n
08-19-2013, 01:33 AM
The srpro is now 99800yen from 120000yen, meh. I got the asus vivo with similar specs for 44800yen. Didn't have to pay for an expensive keyboard attachment, too, which I'm sure srpro would need anyway to be anywhere near productive with win 8, oh plus a mouse. :D

ken_g9
08-19-2013, 06:10 AM
99800yen? Meh indeed.

shrox
08-19-2013, 10:17 AM
Wacom Intuos 3. Works just like it worked in Windows 7.

I generally don't have any problems with Windows 8. I understand where most of the resentment comes from but on my desktop PC, I live in the desktop part of Windows 8 so all is good, even better than Windows 7.

Wait, Surface Pro is down 20,000 yen or down TO 20,000 yen? If it's the latter, that's a steal! I'd grab one next month when I get to Tokyo. :P

My "resentment" comes from the fact that Win8 hangs up and freezes a minimum of five times a day on my new Dell, and every third or fourth boot, it can't find my profile.

ken_g9
08-19-2013, 10:45 AM
My "resentment" comes from the fact that Win8 hangs up and freezes a minimum of five times a day on my new Dell, and every third or fourth boot, it can't find my profile.

Well I would agree, those are indeed serious issues. Have you contacted Dell? I'm not sure if it's solely due to the OS, but if incompatible or unavailable drivers are the cause, then I guess it is.

shrox
08-19-2013, 11:11 AM
Well I would agree, those are indeed serious issues. Have you contacted Dell? I'm not sure if it's solely due to the OS, but if incompatible or unavailable drivers are the cause, then I guess it is.

Yes, did all that. maybe 8.1 will fix it, but I wary of it causing more problems.

COBRASoft
08-19-2013, 12:11 PM
Could be mallfunctioning memory. My brother had this too on his new Dell some years ago. Search online for a free memory tester that starts from USB or similar.

jasonwestmas
08-19-2013, 12:34 PM
yeah I wouldn't rule out malfunctioning hardware, that's for sure.

shrox
08-19-2013, 12:40 PM
yeah I wouldn't rule out malfunctioning hardware, that's for sure.

I have tested that and other things, but I haven't found a fixable problem.

geo_n
08-19-2013, 06:59 PM
I don't trust Dell and HP. :D Personal experience from my Dell and HP hardware in the past as well as friends, they are low quality unless you buy the premium models. Always some faulty components. Among the cheap oem, acer and asus are good quality for the price.
You should return it. I don't experience any problem with windows 8. Its as solid as win 7 as a desktop os.

PixelDust
08-19-2013, 07:08 PM
My "resentment" comes from the fact that Win8 hangs up and freezes a minimum of five times a day on my new Dell, and every third or fourth boot, it can't find my profile.

I had the Win 8 hanging problem recently. Turned out it was my NVIDIA driver - version 320.49. Seems the 320.xx drivers don't play nice with some GeForce cards (mine's a GTX 460). Rolled back to 314.22 and no more freezes. Not sure about the profile problem - I haven't had that happen.

COBRASoft
08-20-2013, 01:40 AM
I build my PC's myself since several years now. I chose the best components for an acceptable price (mostly :)). HP workstations are rocksolid, but way too expensive for what you get.

bobakabob
08-20-2013, 04:02 AM
Have just bought a Dell Precision workstation and made the decision to go for Windows 7. So far, touchwood, no major problems with Dell after nearly 20 years and backup is good. My last Precision has run virtually problem free and Win7 has been rock solid. Maybe it's the luck of the draw... Unfortunately considering their reputation, a Boxx workstation with XP gave me hell, booting up then shutting down in endless loops, not recognising all the memory and terrible problems in bios. One day it didn't boot up at all and I flung the thing on a skip. I couldn't bear to look at its beautiful case which disappeared a day later. I really sympathise with Shrox, because when computers go seriously wrong it can take a lot of time to diagnose and fix (if you're lucky). After reading all the comments about Win8's Wacom problems, admin issues and frustrations with the interface it seemed safer to stay with a proven reliable OS.

Francis60
09-20-2013, 11:26 AM
Deja Vista!!! With some pretty little lights to keep your attention. If you don't spend a couple days figuring out how to use it, and downloading other software so it runs right, I guess their marketing ploy worked.
They didn't even bother to change the bootloader name from Vista. Now is an ample opportunity to devote time to Linux.
C'mon Matey's, time to abandon ship!!

Francis60
09-20-2013, 11:28 AM
Hmmmm, I wonder if the next Windows upgrade will be called ObamaCare?

shrox
09-20-2013, 12:15 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if the next Windows upgrade will be called ObamaCare?

Boo!

jeric_synergy
09-20-2013, 12:21 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if the next Windows upgrade will be called ObamaCare?

Lame. And stupid.

stiff paper
09-20-2013, 01:03 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if the next Windows upgrade will be called ObamaCare?

Wow. Your second ever post. That's got to be a forum record. Usually it takes much longer than that to work out that somebody's an utter fool.

shrox
09-20-2013, 03:20 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if the next Windows upgrade will be called ObamaCare?

Double boo!

People who just spout such just don't like the fact that Obama has more melatonin than them...

allabulle
09-20-2013, 03:28 PM
please shrox don't encourage him or her.

Dexter2999
09-20-2013, 03:35 PM
melanin= coloring pigment

melatonin= hormone contributing to ones ability to regulate sleep

shrox
09-20-2013, 04:14 PM
melanin= coloring pigment

melatonin= hormone contributing to ones ability to regulate sleep

Doh! Stupid spellcheck!