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vncnt
04-23-2013, 08:16 AM
As soon as I use a Roughness value > 0 the entire reflection disappears.

Does this depend on some other parameter?

dee
04-23-2013, 09:58 AM
I've reported this already but it's not a bug, you need to set shading samples to at least 2, then it works.

vncnt
04-23-2013, 11:01 PM
Thanks!
Glad there is a workaround.

jwiede
04-24-2013, 03:12 PM
I've reported this already but it's not a bug, you need to set shading samples to at least 2, then it works.
How is that not a bug?

If LW requires shading samples >=2 when roughness >= 0 on catcher, then it should either A) notify user when triggered conditions are not met, or (better) B) notify user with offer to increase samples (incl. ability for user to set new value there). Hiding requirements and dependencies is pretty clearly a defect, esp. since discoverability of workaround is low to unlikely.

BeeVee
04-24-2013, 04:25 PM
It's not unlikely if you read the manual ;) It's the same situation as with Ray Trace Recursion used to be with 7.5 days when people would complain they got black or pink parts of their render because they had reduced their Ray Trace Recursion to 2 to speed up rendering.

B

jwiede
04-26-2013, 11:52 AM
It's not unlikely if you read the manual ;)
If there was a viable, _comprehensive_ reference manual where the info in question was located in a section cross-referenced with "roughness" in UI/UX in index or such, I'd agree. Unfortunately, expecting customers to read the v10 & v11 addenda and remember every "note" associated with every feature discussed just isn't reasonable, and the way the addenda are structured (tour of new/changed features) doesn't work very efficiently for use as reference manuals -- at the least, they need much better cross-referencing of UI elements involved, etc. to resolve that.

Netvudu
04-26-2013, 06:43 PM
so you agree, John. Badly documented yes. A bug...hardly.

CAClark
05-02-2013, 09:07 AM
Badly documented? badly implemented ;)

If you try and use features elsewhere in Lightwave without a prerequisite setting elsewhere being sufficient, you'll be advised. I think this sits halfway between a bug and sloppy feedback for the user. It's no biggie though, things like load image appearing at the end of a huge list of textures rather then being after none and before the textures names when applying a texture map are much worse lol

Cheers!

jwiede
05-02-2013, 09:41 PM
so you agree, John. Badly documented yes. A bug...hardly.
Not really, no. It still shouldn't just magically "fail" without telling the user about the issue, esp. when there is a clearly-defined set of conditions that could be checked (and a dialog box put up if they're not met). Some have trigger conditions that make programatic identification difficult, and for those documentation is a "tolerable" (but not good) answer. However, for something like this, where a simple mis-setting causes the feature to just fail, not having some displayed indication about the setting issue and instead just allowing the silent failure IS still a bug, IMO.

Just because a behavior is documented doesn't magically turn that behavior into acceptable UX. As for whether there are bigger bugs in LW, of course there are. That said, just because those exist is no reason to ignore smaller UI/UX bugs, the small bugs still need fixing just like the big ones.

jwiede
05-02-2013, 09:57 PM
If you try and use features elsewhere in Lightwave without a prerequisite setting elsewhere being sufficient, you'll be advised. I think this sits halfway between a bug and sloppy feedback for the user.
UX bugs are still bugs, they're just a class of "design defect", in contrast to code defects, which represent defects in implementation.


It's no biggie though, things like load image appearing at the end of a huge list of textures rather then being after none and before the textures names when applying a texture map are much worse lol
Agreed 100%. The bug has moderate severity (it still leads to a failure), and likely a low priority, but still belongs in the queue.

vncnt
05-05-2013, 07:55 AM
If NT didnīt set the default shading samples to 1 there would not have been a problem.

I think the Shadow Catcher node system is designed for simple folks like me, so a warning message would have been appropriate.

mav3rick
05-24-2013, 12:29 PM
agreed

Tobian
05-25-2013, 07:38 AM
Sorry but it is a bug.. None of the other Reflection basesd shaders have this issue, and, as has been pointed out, the DEFAULT shading samples since 11.5 has been 1, which has obviously compounded the issue.

Lewis
05-25-2013, 11:46 AM
Agreed, If Shadow catcher rougness works only with Samples 2+ then Default number of samples (by instalation) shouldn't be 1 regardless of what manual could or should say :).

thomascheng
05-25-2013, 02:25 PM
Lightwave is getting more and more complicated with each new version. A lot of new features are built to be simple and intuitive to help ease the learning curve. A good design is a design that doesn't require the use of a manual to understand it. If Shadow Catcher needs a sample of at least 2, then it should perform one of the functions when activated:

- popup a msg warning that shading samples needs to be at least 2, if it was set to less than 2 - quick option
- design the shadow catcher to not have the requirement of at least 2 samples (maybe internally the node will always use 2) - good option
- Rebuild the system so that we don't need to mess with samples (VPR, Fprime are great examples) - Best option

Honestly, I rarely get a chance to read the manual during production. If the system was easier to understand, I would be a much better artist and the level of quality from my work will shoot up. It's in the interest of the LW community that we can learn it fast and easy without the need of the manual to understand anything.

I was messing with Mudbox 2014 and was pleasantly surprise that it gave me a popup warning me of all the problems that can go wrong because my geometry was not all quads.

Netvudu
05-25-2013, 05:11 PM
Ok, if Lightwave is a complex app, and the example to follow is an Autodesk app, then sorry, but besides disagreeing of yourself, I think you need a bit of a reality check as far as 3d packages go.
With more than 10 years of teaching experience of 3d packages including Lightwave I can assure you it is really hard to find anything easier than Lightwave to introduce anybody into CG. You mentioned and "specialty" app (mudbox), not a full package. Max, Maya, Softimage, Houdini...IMO all of them are way more complex to learn than Lightwave is.
Of course, it coud be a matter of tastes, but the range of opinions I can draw from after all these years, and working in a school where we teach many different packages at least qualifies my opinion (which might still mean nothing to you, of course)


Lightwave is getting more and more complicated with each new version. A lot of new features are built to be simple and intuitive to help ease the learning curve. A good design is a design that doesn't require the use of a manual to understand it. If Shadow Catcher needs a sample of at least 2, then it should perform one of the functions when activated:

- popup a msg warning that shading samples needs to be at least 2, if it was set to less than 2 - quick option
- design the shadow catcher to not have the requirement of at least 2 samples (maybe internally the node will always use 2) - good option
- Rebuild the system so that we don't need to mess with samples (VPR, Fprime are great examples) - Best option

Honestly, I rarely get a chance to read the manual during production. If the system was easier to understand, I would be a much better artist and the level of quality from my work will shoot up. It's in the interest of the LW community that we can learn it fast and easy without the need of the manual to understand anything.

I was messing with Mudbox 2014 and was pleasantly surprise that it gave me a popup warning me of all the problems that can go wrong because my geometry was not all quads.

thomascheng
05-31-2013, 02:36 AM
Lets not start taking things out of context. I mentioned 1 use of a popup message from a specialty app, that I thought was done right. It's up to you if you want to disagree with it, but lets not start stereotyping everything Autodesk does as crap. I use both Lightwave and 3ds Max on feature film and tv work here in LA. Both apps are great and both companies can learn from each other.