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View Full Version : Switching between apps - crashing 11.5 layout



JGary
04-16-2013, 01:03 AM
Intend to submit this as a bug, but wanted to see if anyone else is experiencing my issue. Running LW 11.5 on a windows 8 laptop and can get Layout to lock up/crash easily and consistently by switching between it and another app or folder using Alt + Tab keys...have to switch a few times before it happens. It will crash with no scene loaded. This is making Layout very unusable for me since I'm constantly switching to folders, email, Zbrush and Photoshop. Laptop is a ASUS G75VW with 16 gb of ram and a Geforce GTX 670M.

Sensei
04-16-2013, 01:40 AM
I had crashes with scene loaded and VPR running, but they shut down report because (as usual) "can't reproduce here"..

Compare module & offset of crash with yours.
https://fogbugz.newtek.com/default.asp?57265_ffadf5omhn31ef5u

prometheus
04-16-2013, 02:02 AM
not of help exactly, but not sure if it is layout that is useless..I would rather go windows 8 useless, switch to a better system:) :) that win 8 thing isnt getting anywere near my laptop or desktop.

Michael

JGary
04-17-2013, 09:07 PM
not of help exactly, but not sure if it is layout that is useless..I would rather go windows 8 useless, switch to a better system:) :) that win 8 thing isnt getting anywere near my laptop or desktop.

Michael

Turns out Windows 8 and the hub do not get along...had to disable the hub for now. Below is the better description I included in the bug. Newtek support clarified that it is a 'lock up' I'm experiencing, not a crash.

"Layout crashes, not modeler. When switching between Layout and another app or folder (even Modeler), Layout will become unresponsive after switching a few times...can try and Alt + Tab back to it but does not work. It remains open but unavailable. Opening task manager shows it as 'not responding'...have to close out Layout using 'end task'. If Modeler is open when Layout freezes, it will show as 'not responding' as well until I 'end task' on Layout, then Modeler resumes working."

ivanze
04-17-2013, 09:44 PM
I am using Lightwave with Windows 8 without any issues. Did you try updating your graphics card drivers?

GoatDude
04-17-2013, 10:18 PM
Myself, and others have had problems with lockups caused by AVG Antivirus under Windows 7. Just a thought..

Thomas Helzle
04-22-2013, 09:29 AM
I definitely get crashes when the VPR is running while switching apps. Not instantly or always but sooner or later it happens with a 100% probability.
Not sure if it's related to using instances in the scene and updating their model?
I reported it but it wasn't reproducible. The scene I experienced it with the most is too large to send, but I'll try to make it happen with a more simple one.

Deactivating the VPR is something I simply forget every now and then - maybe it could be turned off automatically when switching with F12?

But even in older versions before VPR I had this happen sometimes...

Cheers,

Tom

Sensei
04-22-2013, 09:43 AM
The scene I experienced it with the most is too large to send, but I'll try to make it happen with a more simple one.


I have only simple scenes.. :)

So it happens regardless of complexity..

Instances were not used in mine case.

Thomas Helzle
04-22-2013, 09:49 AM
So we have to find a way to enable them to reproduce it...
Hm...

Cheers,

Tom

vncnt
04-22-2013, 11:16 AM
I definitely get crashes when the VPR is running while switching apps. Not instantly or always but sooner or later it happens with a 100% probability.

Ive had the same experience today. Updating the model in Modeler for a few times while VPR was running in Layout. Then suddenly it stopped working. The scene and objects were on a network drive.

MarcusM
04-22-2013, 12:38 PM
I have Layout crashes when:
1. Send object do Layout
2. Back/switch to Modeler to triangulate polys. (without saving object)
3. Switch to Layout -> crash
;]

Snosrap
04-23-2013, 09:38 PM
Ive had the same experience today. Updating the model in Modeler for a few times while VPR was running in Layout. Then suddenly it stopped working. The scene and objects were on a network drive. You aren't by chance using Worley's G2 are you? If so - don't. :)

vncnt
04-24-2013, 11:17 PM
You aren't by chance using Worley's G2 are you? If so - don't. :)

Nope.
These days I use Save a lot.

jboudreau
04-25-2013, 12:42 AM
I have Layout crashes when:
1. Send object do Layout
2. Back/switch to Modeler to triangulate polys. (without saving object)
3. Switch to Layout -> crash
;]

Hi

Works here no problem, Strange

Mac or PC?
32 or 64bit?

Thanks,
Jason

MarcusM
04-25-2013, 02:48 AM
I made now test and print screens.

After triangulate object in Modeler, not saving this object and switch to Layout immediately crash is showing.

Windows 7 64bit, LW Ver 11.5 Build 2519 (Win64) 27-Jan-2013

jboudreau
04-25-2013, 02:53 AM
I made now test and print screens.

After triangulate object in Modeler, not saving this object and switch to Layout immediately crash is showing.

Windows 7 64bit, LW Ver 11.5 Build 2519 (Win64) 27-Jan-2013

Hi

Are you able to send me the model so I can tested on my end. See if I get a crash or not

Thanks,
Jason

MarcusM
04-25-2013, 03:45 AM
I test this model without textures and Layout not crashing. (It was happening with other models too if this you suspect ;])

I suspect problem is in uploading images/textures between Layout and Modeler. Even sometimes Layout or Modeler, after switching, asking for texture path. It's strange that connected by HUB Layout and Modeler don't have the same image lists in Image Editor and asking for images...

I not attaching model becouse it was prepared for bake with many texture and this is mess in middle of work ;]

inkpen3d
04-25-2013, 03:47 AM
I too have experienced either Layout or Modeler crashing in LW11.5 when switching between the two applications - having VPR running seems to increase the odds of it happening, so I try to remember to turn it off when about to switch over to Modeler.

At first I thought the crashing was due to the high poly count objects I was using in the project I was currently working on for a client, but having just completed another couple of projects for a different client, which in this case used low poly count objects, I'd say the tendency to crash is about the same. I didn't FogBugz these observations due to firstly being under extremely tight delivery schedules, and secondly, the projects I was working on in all these instances were highly commercial-in-confidence and so the files couldn't be supplied to the NT support team to back up these observations (and, as you know, they invariably ask for them).

My machine specs are: Win 7 64 bit, 3 GHz PC with 24GB RAM, nvidia GeForce GTX460 card driving 2 NEC EA232WMi monitors. All LW project files were located on a QNAP network drive.

Regards,
Peter

Thomas Helzle
04-25-2013, 09:24 AM
My files all were local, Windows 8 Pro 64 Bit, 32 Gb RAM, GeForce 660 GTX TI.

So my guess would be:
- It's not about where the files are stored.
- It's not about high or low polycount.
- It's not about instances being involved or not.
- VPR seems to increase the likelihood but it happens without as well.

I don't know enough about how the synch between the two apps via Hub works to make any educated guesses, but it could even be completely unrelated to the Hub itself and be just an object-replacement bug where under certain conditions the refresh in Layout either doesn't disconnect cleanly from the old object or something hangs still in memory when the new object is loaded.

Hm - one of those really hard to track ones I guess...

Cheers,

Tom

allabulle
04-25-2013, 11:43 PM
I have some similar problem, but oddly enough, it's Modeler that crashes here. After some tweaks in Layout, going a bit back and forth and Modeler gets pretty unstable. A classic here is when we try to incremental save the object. Crash!

I should try to model on another machine to see if there's some Modeler specific bug. But definitely switching through the Hub starts the clock fro the near crash. Layout is quite solid, though. I'll try to test using both without the hub and redo some work to see if it behaves.

LightWave used to be reliable here for what we do. This last weeks not so much.

Thomas Helzle
04-26-2013, 03:24 AM
I worked without Hub and without synching for a while, but it gets pretty annoying after a short while if your not only modelling or only rendering. Things were extremely stable then, but since I reloaded Modeller and Layout very often, that isn't really surprising.
My gut-feeling is, that there is something wrong with the reloading, which would also fit with your modeller crash after incremental save.
Something not getting unloaded properly or something still using the old values for the new object after the reload/rename.

I can often work for hours without crash, but I can't work without crash for days. So crashes are always part of the picture.

Since I started using "Package Scene" for saving incremental versions to individual subfolders, I'm less concerned by those problems and find it easier to keep track of what I do. Incremental save was getting messy very fast for me.

It would be cool to get to the bottom of this, since it is the one regular crash bug I get.

Cheers,

Tom

allabulle
04-26-2013, 03:39 AM
Yes, Thomas. I was wondering the same. That's why I want to try what happens if I do the same but without the Hub. And then practice a bit more to see if the Hub is the culprit: if it becomes rock solid, we have a prime suspect (if it's not already).

We really need to find out what is the problem, because working without the Hub is a real pain in many situations. If I kept away from FiberFX LightWave used to be so stable. It was a joy. Well, I'll keep testing. Please post any findings of yours (or even intuitions we can test too).

Anyone else's doing tests to find a reproducible crash the developers can check and confirm?

prometheus
04-26-2013, 04:22 AM
Iv gotten a little too much crashes when working with layers in surfacing, or with hypervoxels and using vpr, happens when removing a procedural texture or invert it ....not all the time but too often I think and
this wasnt the case with 11.03.

Something with the updating of the vpr that might cause it perhaps, besides that..Lightwave has been having issues of keeping track on which procedural layer you are currently working on, sometimes
you change layer mode only to find out that it has changed in on the wrong layer, or you think you tweak frequencies on one layer, but it in fact changes it on another, but I think this has been a problem
since a long time ago.

Michael

vncnt
05-01-2013, 05:00 AM
Even sometimes Layout or Modeler, after switching, asking for texture path.

I noticed that LW sometimes didn't find the config file that was referenced in the shortcut:
"C:\Program Files\NewTek\LightWave11.5\bin\Layout.exe" -c"S:\config" -0

Many times I discovered this when certain keyboard shortcuts, defined in previous LW sessions, suddenly were not recognised anymore.

Even immediately after closing a Layout session and restarting Layout.

ruud
05-13-2013, 05:23 AM
To any of you, did this occur since a new DirectX update?

Thomas Helzle
05-13-2013, 07:28 AM
Not sure - isn't DirectX now part of the system? I never installed it on my Windows 8 x64 OS...

Cheers,

Tom

vncnt
05-13-2013, 08:20 AM
This morning Modeler crashed after saving All Objects in Layout.
It crashed the moment I switched from Layout to Modeler.
64bit/Win7

allabulle
05-13-2013, 08:37 AM
I've seen that many times too, vncnt.

But it's quite irregular here, sometimes it does crash, then it won't... I don't know what, but something is wrong. Since it seems that at NewTek they can't reproduce it, we're trying to find the culprit. I can't make a scene were it's definitely clear when or doing what it crashes.

I hope one of us can find the damn thing (or even better the developers themselves) and fix the bug or bugs. It's quite annoying to be paranoid, but not having at least the 'save often' guarantee it's seriously irritating. We'll see.

ruud
05-13-2013, 08:54 AM
with me it suddenly occured, previously it worked fine, but from one day to another it just FROZE randomly switching between Modeler and Layout. Now since I've turned off AVG Security it runs smoothly all day long... could be a coinsidence, but I'll see how it works the upcoming days...

ruud
05-20-2013, 04:15 AM
Well, Layout and Modeler Froze again... the past week I shut down AVG Free and I got no lockups, today I worked with AVG on and it froze pretty soon, but while it was frozen I shut down AVG and Layout and Modeler immidiately started working again.
Now, I don't think this story applies to everyone here, but it does have something to do with something in the Hub that's being blocked by AVG or any other service.
Put it to your advantage, this is the only thing that I can say about it...
Good luck!

Snosrap
05-20-2013, 08:11 AM
Yep - it's an AVG issue for sure. I've gone to Avast and have had no issues since.

vncnt
05-20-2013, 03:06 PM
Now since I've turned off AVG Security it runs smoothly all day long...
Im using MS Security Essentials.

allabulle
05-20-2013, 04:04 PM
I'm using Comodo.

Sensei
05-20-2013, 10:11 PM
It doesn't matter which firewall you're using.
If connection through TCP/IP will be intercepted by firewall, it might in some cases, wait until reaching packet timeout, which might be as long as 180 seconds in one direction. If I recall correctly that's default timeout if application doesn't play with timeout settings in packet.

Thomas Helzle
05-21-2013, 04:13 AM
Hm - not sure I subscribe to the Antivirus/Firewall idea for those problems.
I use Avira Antivirus and the Windows Firewall.
The Firewall asks when I first start a new Lightwave version if I want to allow Layout, Modeller and Hub to communicate. I allow that and IMO that should be it.
The Antivirus scans on reads and writes, but I would be surprised if it were the reason for the problems, which would still point to a problem in Lightwave itself IMO.
If no problem with the files is found by the AV app, it should only introduce a tiny lag, which shouldn't make a software crash.

Both of those things are so common today, that Newtek should be able to reproduce it - I can't imagine they have no Firewall and no AV-software running?

The next time I work on a project with LW I'll give it a try though.

Cheers,

Tom

allabulle
05-21-2013, 04:46 AM
I'm in doubt too. But if that's a real problem... are we supposed to avoid firewalls just to work with LightWave? Nah. It must be some other thing. I have my firewall set up to allow whatever Layout, Modeler and the Hub care to do. What else should it be?

Sensei
05-21-2013, 04:51 AM
Does switching off hub -0 fixes freezing?

Thomas Helzle
05-21-2013, 05:35 AM
No.

The only way I personally found to avoid the problem was disabling both the Hub and the new synch on save feature. But then you basically have to reload Layout or Modeller on every change (only have one app open at any given time). While this is very reliable and you can be sure that no sync-hiccups occur (where you suddenly are back to an old version because the synch didn't work and you get back-synced, which cost me several hours of work) it is also a major pain in the behind and not really practical, especially for more involved scenes.

I found that the Hub is actually more reliable if I follow the proscribed path than the synch-on-save which created problems all the time.

What I personally would prefer (if the automatic way can't be fixed 100%) is a way to be able to synch manually. Have two buttons in both Layout and Modeller:
- Reload current object from disk
- Reload all objects from disk
Would basically do almost all I need and I could keep track myself of when I want the change in one app to be synced to the other.

Cheers,

Tom

jwiede
05-21-2013, 09:56 AM
I found that the Hub is actually more reliable if I follow the proscribed path than the synch-on-save which created problems all the time.
That's been my experience as well. Running with the hub is substantially more reliable/stable here than running with its "synch-save" replacement (which I've found neither stable nor reliable).

inkpen3d
11-25-2013, 09:15 AM
Hi Guys,

FYI - the bug that I logged on the 8th November: Synchronising Modeler with Layout whilst VPR running crashes Layout (case 66953), and which several of you had also experienced, has been fixed according to an email I received from the software team a few days ago.

Regards,
Peter

Snosrap
11-25-2013, 07:53 PM
Hi Guys,

FYI - the bug that I logged on the 8th November: Synchronising Modeler with Layout whilst VPR running crashes Layout (case 66953), and which several of you had also experienced, has been fixed according to an email I received from the software team a few days ago.

Regards,
Peter

Yeah - I haven't had that issue for quite some time now.

allabulle
11-26-2013, 03:40 AM
Neither do I, but the paranoia will fade slowly; I still only switch to Modeler with VPR running by accident.

inkpen3d
11-26-2013, 04:10 AM
Yeah - I haven't had that issue for quite some time now.

Well, given that the bug report was raised against LW11.6 and it has only just been fixed, I would attribute that change in behaviour to something else. Unless, that is, NT have recently made a new build exclusively available to your good self. ;)

Here, with my LW11.6 build 2723, I'm still experiencing the crash when VPR is running and I switch between Layout and Modeler.

Regards,
Peter

Snosrap
11-26-2013, 07:14 PM
Here, with my LW11.6 build 2723, I'm still experiencing the crash when VPR is running and I switch between Layout and Modeler.

Regards,
Peter What OS? It's been solid for me on Win7 - at work and home.