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erikals
04-09-2013, 11:23 AM
a small glimpse... http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/arteest.gif
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyS-SyQza0s#t=32m40s

geo_n
04-09-2013, 10:53 PM
Great kinect news!! Using a genoma rig?

Don't like making the point of separate appz/modules as an advantage and object referencing as stronger in lw than others. Its not. Even if its just used as a sales pitch its putting more focus on lw weakpoints. The two app separation should be put out of the spotlight as much as possible, not making it a major feature.

lino.grandi
04-10-2013, 01:39 AM
Great kinect news!! Using a genoma rig?

Maybe...



Don't like making the point of separate appz/modules as an advantage and object referencing as stronger in lw than others. Its not. Even if its just used as a sales pitch its putting more focus on lw weakpoints. The two app separation should be put out of the spotlight as much as possible, not making it a major feature.

Well...I would say that it really depends....what Rob says probably means more than what you have read in his words. This topic would really deserve to be discussed, because sometimes what we call a weak point can really become a major feature (just a very personal opinion).
Anyway this is the only comment I'll personally make on this topic, but of course I'll keep reading this thread and follow up how it will develop. ;)

erikals
04-10-2013, 03:24 AM
Lino, maybe you would know this, is it now possible to import a videostream from a Kinect camera?

this looks like something similar, but i'm not sure if it is...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyS-SyQza0s#t=36m00s

the thing is, it would be awesome to input a realtime video into LightWave to drive displacements...

erikals
04-10-2013, 03:40 AM
geo_n, both Rob and Matt are aware of the limitations it can lead to, NT is working on it.
just how they are working on it i have no idea... probably one of these >

-Bringing some tools into Layout
-Camera in Modeler
-Modeler/Layout unified in one go (something i highly doubt, because of the heavy amount of work)

but they are working on it.
Rob's explanation on the separate Modeler/Layout environment benefit is true, but more than anything a marketing strategy, as some 3D people think the separation makes Lightwave flawed, which is not true.

again, they are aware of the limitations and working on something, as they stated some time back (6 months back or so)
we might see it in LW12, we might see it in LW13...

geo_n
04-10-2013, 04:15 AM
Rob's explanation on the separate Modeler/Layout environment benefit is true, but more than anything a marketing strategy, as some 3D people think the separation makes Lightwave flawed, which is not true.



You know you can open two instances of xyz app and work exactly like lightwave except that in xyz app have more things you can reference real time(animation, lights,camera, etc) that you can never do with lightwave being there's nothing in modeller except mesh data.
The separation in lightwave is flawed there's no way anyone would think otherwise unless they don't know how to open another instance of xyz app.
The marketting talk is not converting anyone from thinking otherwise unless they've no touched another app besides lightwave.
This separation issue has been discussed countless times in this forum and users really want unification so its surprising to hear this marketting talk still happening. The effect to users is man this app is still in the stone age.

erikals
04-10-2013, 04:42 AM
i'm just saying, don't put too much into that one small sentence.
six months ago... >


Rob >
I will say that we are aware of the limitation caused by not being able to model from a camera perspective. I myself was frustrated by this a few times. As I mentioned at Siggraph there are strengths to having a clean focused modeling workflow separate from the "Shooting Stage" Layout workflow but this is one of the weaknesses. I am aware of it and want a solution for this....so....I'm just saying


Matt >
This is something we are fully aware of. Same deal with painting Weights in Layout.

MarcusM
04-10-2013, 04:46 AM
I played now with kinect for windows and MikuMikuDance free software. It's great fun.
It look like models must be convert to *.PMD.

Example from YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXHsl_DKqDk

You need:
http://www.geocities.jp/higuchuu4/index_e.htm
MikuMikuDance (DirectX9 Ver.)

https://sites.google.com/site/moggproject/enghome
version 0.3.2

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/kinectforwindows/develop/overview.aspx

MikuMikuCaputre have BHV options:
https://sites.google.com/site/mikumikucapturee/

For Maya is free plugin ;] :
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Mirage/
Maya OpenNI Server Version.0.2Alpha

Kaptive
04-10-2013, 05:24 AM
Great kinect news!! Using a genoma rig?

Don't like making the point of separate appz/modules as an advantage and object referencing as stronger in lw than others. Its not. Even if its just used as a sales pitch its putting more focus on lw weakpoints. The two app separation should be put out of the spotlight as much as possible, not making it a major feature.

Though I'm sure your point is perfectly valid, why derail a thread that is about Kinect in Lightwave? You pointed out yourself that it has already been discussed countless times, and if it is that important to discuss the promotion techniques, then start another thread. I don't wish to sound rude, it's just that I saw this thread and was really pleased to hear about Kinect being brought into Lightwave... but one post in and we are talking about Modeler and Lightwave separation! Rant over.

Back on topic.

I bought Jimmy Rig a couple of years back that now has kinect functionality, and it works suprisingly well for a quick solution for background characters. But seeing what Rob was doing here, it looks like it goes beyond just control for a character rig. It would seem you can take the input and assign it to other things. It looks like great fun.

Is this going to be an 11.6 feature? Looking forward to it!

On another point, when Microsoft update their software at some point in the future, we should be able to use 2 Kinects at once (without major work arounds). I hope Newtek will incorporate that too, as the range of use will be vastly increased.

erikals
04-10-2013, 05:35 AM
agree, this was meant as a thread for LightWave Kinect...

even though i understand the frustration, please don't derail threads like this...

----------

yes, 2 Kinects will improve the capture quite a bit, so hope Microsoft release the new software soon...

dsol
04-10-2013, 06:03 AM
Cool to see the NAB presentation in its entirety too. I spotted my 1xtra Bassphone (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134665-BBC-Radio-1xtra-quot-Bassphone-quot-promo) animation in the motion graphics reel - awesome! Some really great work in that reel.

geo_n
04-10-2013, 07:04 AM
I don't wish to sound rude, it's just that I saw this thread and was really pleased to hear about Kinect being brought into Lightwave... but one post in and we are talking about Modeler and Lightwave separation! Rant over.

Back on topic.

I bought Jimmy Rig a couple of years back that now has kinect functionality, and it works suprisingly well for a quick solution for background characters. But seeing what Rob was doing here, it looks like it goes beyond just control for a character rig. It would seem you can take the input and assign it to other things. It looks like great fun.



Not rude at all. But the video itself has 1/1000 kinect. :D
Avatar info was great though.
In anycase this issue was raised in another thread with regards to the NAB presentation mentioning the "strength" of lw app separation. Just can't find the thread and only here the NAB presentation is available to see and people are able to comment on the presentation. I would love to show this to non-lwvers but omit the marketting stuff because it will just remind them lw is separate still. Bad sales pitch imo.

MauricioPC
04-10-2013, 08:31 AM
I'm not a LW user and thought the presentation was great. And the fact that Rob is a great artist help sells as he shows what he can do and the images are quite fantastic.

Even though Maxon with Cineware is incredible, for the price tag, in the future, I would still prefere LW.

As for the Kinect ... I found it really cool. And he talked about more control with music and such.

merovingio
04-10-2013, 03:27 PM
I used Kinect with Unity, using a commercial plugin called Zigfu. It was really simple, just install driver, install plugin, import mesh and assign bones. The result capture was convincing, but miles away from what i see in the video of Rob and Lino. I see Lino moving legs, jump and even mouth and that is a result i never been able to achieve in Unity.

So, the question is why? Is it just a matter of better built software? Or maybe they are using more then one kinect?

jwiede
04-10-2013, 08:43 PM
So, the question is why? Is it just a matter of better built software? Or maybe they are using more then one kinect?
It may also have to do with "optimum tracking conditions", iow well-lit wide open area with little visual distraction to degrade Kinect's tracking. You'd be amazed how some minor "tweaking" of your capture area (better lighting, in particular) can greatly improve the quality produced.

The "Kinect for Windows" device used to have a few minor tweaks the "XBox Kinect" did not (firmware may be caught up now, I'll check at work). If you were using just a regular XBox Kinect, that might explain some of the difference as well.

littlewaves
04-11-2013, 01:28 AM
is there a video of Lino using kinect with the robot model as Rob mentions is this vid?

cresshead
04-11-2013, 06:11 AM
is there a more detailed video showing the kinect live link to lightwave?

this is a big deal and looks to have been just hinted at for 20 seconds of video...
i want to see a what's needed hardware and software.
how to set up
and a demo of it working in the viewport
final animation renderd.

is it a commercial plugin or just lightwave 11.5?

phillydee
04-11-2013, 06:37 AM
i want to see a what's needed hardware and software.


From what I saw: just a Kinect with LW 11.5--Lino was using a XBox 360 Kinect sensor. (One only)



how to set up


The real-time feedback was done similar to the PS3 Move demo: motion data came through the Virtual Studio tool. Difference here obviously is the Kinect was the input device.



and a demo of it working in the viewport


He actually showed me two different demos: one was the robot rig demo (shown in the video), and a demo where the elevation of your left and right hands controlled two different procedural textures' displacement effect and it's positioning. That one was just as cool and really fun to play with as well.



is it a commercial plugin or just lightwave 11.5?

This was just running off of 11.5--again, this is what I saw. Even Rob says "11.5" in the video.


Personally, I would gladly pay for a LW update that included Kinect as a recognized input device.

geo_n
04-11-2013, 06:45 AM
I hope they update to two kinects. We're using ipisoft and with only one kinect its very limited. The best you can do is get an animation of a character standing waving their arms or moving their legs JUST to show motion but its not very useful motion. You need atleast two kinects or 4 ps3 cams to get useable motions that a character makes and occlusion won't be a problem in this case.

littlewaves
04-11-2013, 06:51 AM
He actually showed me two different demos: one was the robot rig demo (shown in the video), and a demo where the elevation of your left and right hands controlled two different procedural textures' displacement effect and it's positioning. That one was just as cool and really fun to play with as well.

I can't really see the robot demo very clearly in Rob's presentation but it looks as though its mouth is animated. Do you know if this was achieved via the kinect's facial capture or was he animating it in some other way?

phillydee
04-11-2013, 06:54 AM
Do you know if this was achieved via the kinect's facial capture or was he animating it in some other way?

The mouth moving is being driven by AUDIO, not facial capture. The audio input came from the stage of the booth that Lino's station was set up at. So, while we were talking, the robot would move it's mouth when a presenter was on stage giving a presentation etc.

cresshead
04-11-2013, 06:57 AM
Newtek need to make a specific motion capture feature video, honestly...just do it!

cresshead
04-11-2013, 07:01 AM
Dear Matt, Rob and newtek staff

can someone please SCREAM at whoever is needed to be screamed at in the lightwve 3d division to create a kinect/move/motion capture how to/set up video to help shift more updates of lightwave?

frustrated potential upgrade customer

inkpen3d
04-11-2013, 07:04 AM
Alas, Microsoft's Kinect is just so ... passé for anything other than crude whole body motion detection! ;)

I'm far more interested in the huge potential of the new Leap motion sensor (https://www.leapmotion.com/) - it's reputed to be 100 times more accurate than, and retails at 1/2 the price of, Microsoft's Kinect. Watch the video on the home page of Leap Motion's web site to get a feel for the awesomeness of this device.

Also, unlike Microsoft, Leap Motion have made their device API available to developers from the very start, so plenty of interesting apps under development already.

To illustrate how it's already being put to use in the world of 3D, here's a quote from an article on the Leap device in the 8th April issue of New Scientist "... Brian Pene, a researcher at 3D design company Autodesk in San Francisco, has built a prototype using Leap which lets users manipulate a digital model of an engine with their own hands. "Let's say you wanted to disassemble and reassemble a 3D engine model," he says. "Using a mouse you'd have to pick up everything in 2D space while constantly manipulating the view. With Leap you can reach in and grab much like you do in the physical world."...".

So cheap accurate gesture control of your favourite 3D application looming on the near horizon!

Peter

littlewaves
04-11-2013, 07:07 AM
The mouth moving is being driven by AUDIO, not facial capture. The audio input came from the stage of the booth that Lino's station was set up at. So, while we were talking, the robot would move it's mouth when a presenter was on stage giving a presentation etc.

cool. Supermarionation (http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Supermarionation+lip+solenoids) style.

Hopefully the facial capture included in the kinect 1.5 sdk will also be usable in LW. It could be really useful as while a lot of people probably don't have room at their workstation to set up a motion capture area for full body work they could at least use the facial stuff.

I realise the quality wouldn't be great animation wise but would be great for pre-vis.

phillydee
04-11-2013, 07:08 AM
Dear Matt, Rob and newtek staff

can someone please SCREAM at whoever is needed to be screamed at in the lightwve 3d division to create a kinect/move/motion capture how to/set up video to help shift more updates of lightwave?

frustrated potential upgrade customer

IIRC, setup of the PS Move controller system is covered in the LW11.5 addendum docs. I think some of the example scenes also require the Move...? (citation needed lol)

littlewaves
04-11-2013, 07:11 AM
Dear Matt, Rob and newtek staff

can someone please SCREAM at whoever is needed to be screamed at in the lightwve 3d division to create a kinect/move/motion capture how to/set up video to help shift more updates of lightwave?

frustrated potential upgrade customer

from the sounds of a post that Matt made direct kinect support isn't yet in LW unless you can delve into the SDK yourself.

So not plug and play as a Virtual Studio controller just yet. Hopefully it will be.

another frustrated potential upgrade customer.

cresshead
04-11-2013, 07:12 AM
IIRC, setup of the PS Move controller system is covered in the LW11.5 addendum docs. I think some of the example scenes also require the Move...? (citation needed lol)

you can write anything in documents for example "i own the moon"...it doesn't mean i actually own the moon though does it?

Video - see it...does it...buy it.

and yeh..i'm in a grumpy mood!

phillydee
04-11-2013, 07:18 AM
you can write anything in documents for example "i own the moon"...it doesn't mean i actually own the moon though does it?

Video - see it...does it...buy it.

Yeah I understand where you came from initially, was just trying to state I remember seeing some instructions in the addendum PDF... Anyways. It was a shame Lino wasn't featured more in the presentation.


from the sounds of a post that Matt made direct kinect support isn't yet in LW unless you can delve into the SDK yourself.

So not plug and play as a Virtual Studio controller just yet. Hopefully it will be.
Yes to state something I did see it running on LW11.5, obviously a different build as the Kinect input device was listed in the VST. I'm speculating here, but hopefully we'll see a bit more on this come Siggraph.

littlewaves
04-11-2013, 07:34 AM
Alas, Microsoft's Kinect is just so ... passé for anything other than crude whole body motion detection! ;)

I'm far more interested in the huge potential of the new Leap motion sensor (https://www.leapmotion.com/) - it's reputed to be 100 times more accurate than, and retails at 1/2 the price of, Microsoft's Kinect. Watch the video on the home page of Leap Motion's web site to get a feel for the awesomeness of this device.

Also, unlike Microsoft, Leap Motion have made their device API available to developers from the very start, so plenty of interesting apps under development already.

To illustrate how it's already being put to use in the world of 3D, here's a quote from an article on the Leap device in the 8th April issue of New Scientist "... Brian Pene, a researcher at 3D design company Autodesk in San Francisco, has built a prototype using Leap which lets users manipulate a digital model of an engine with their own hands. "Let's say you wanted to disassemble and reassemble a 3D engine model," he says. "Using a mouse you'd have to pick up everything in 2D space while constantly manipulating the view. With Leap you can reach in and grab much like you do in the physical world."...".

So cheap accurate gesture control of your favourite 3D application looming on the near horizon!

Peter


It's just hands though right?

Not saying that it wouldn't have uses (lots of them) but not really the same purpose as the kinect

inkpen3d
04-11-2013, 07:52 AM
It's just hands though right?

Not saying that it wouldn't have uses (lots of them) but not really the same purpose as the kinect

Yep agree with you - at the moment, Leap = hands. But I'm sure that Leap Motion are not going to just stop there and will no doubt attempt to take a sizeable bite out of the MS Kinect market!

So, currently, MS Kinect for whole body motion capture and very, very soon Leap for high-accuracy hand motion capture.

BTW, Leap are planning to shrink the device down in size so it can fit inside smart phones and tablets - so no more mucky fingerprints on screens! Also, given time, I can also see it being fitted as standard into monitors by manufactures.

Cheers,
Peter

phillydee
04-11-2013, 07:53 AM
It's just hands though right?

Not saying that it wouldn't have uses (lots of them) but not really the same purpose as the kinect

I'd say we could expect both in Kinect 2.0. Finger jestures and eye tracking. I'm only going by what I've read on Kinect 2.0, so I guess for now we'll have to wait and see.

http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2013/02/20/microsofts-kinect-2-0-specifications-allegedly-leak-1920x1080-color-stream-60ms-latency-and-usb-3-0/

http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/10/4208970/next-xbox-tv-entertainment-plans

erikals
04-11-2013, 07:47 PM
...hope it's true... :]

khan973
04-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Kinect to drive facial expressions in real time!

jwiede
04-11-2013, 11:00 PM
...hope it's true... :]
I can just say it's a really fun time to work in the XBox division at MS. :D

Greenlaw
04-11-2013, 11:02 PM
Some of you have already seen this but here's something I put together a couple of nights ago for use with iPi Mocap Studio and LightWave:

113527 113528

I'm using this rig to capture head motions while capturing body motions from two Kinects. It works quite well actually. I'm also using two more PS Moves to capture wrist rotations--currently hand held but I'm designing gloves with the devices attached on risers.

Here's an 'old' motion test I did a couple of months ago for our short film using an earlier setup: Sister Motion Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY)

In this video, I didn't have the PS Move head capture system available but the software is able to use the merged point clouds to give the character some limited head motion (pitch and bank but no heading.) Using the PS Move for the head should be a lot more accurate (precise rotation for all axis.) Hope to test this for an actual shot this weekend.

BTW, the Nintendo Wii Mote with Motion Plus also works. But PS Move is more accurate for this purpose.

G.

dsol
04-12-2013, 04:41 AM
Yep agree with you - at the moment, Leap = hands. But I'm sure that Leap Motion are not going to just stop there and will no doubt attempt to take a sizeable bite out of the MS Kinect market!

So, currently, MS Kinect for whole body motion capture and very, very soon Leap for high-accuracy hand motion capture.

BTW, Leap are planning to shrink the device down in size so it can fit inside smart phones and tablets - so no more mucky fingerprints on screens! Also, given time, I can also see it being fitted as standard into monitors by manufactures.

Cheers,
Peter

Leap would awesome to use as a virtual armature controller. So, you could map your hand and finger movements to limbs like a virtual glove puppet. Or a virtual string or rod puppet as someone else suggested. Obviously this would be much better for non-humanoid characters (dinosaurs - RAH!!), but I could see a lot of uses. Even for things like motion graphics!

papou
04-12-2013, 07:13 AM
We need 2 kinect compatibility if we want to use usable body motion...
I have one Kinect and JimmyRig and i think it's only good to say Hello and move like a retarded.

dsol
04-12-2013, 07:28 AM
Is it possible to use 2 kinects at once? The multi-kinect setups I've seen only seem to let you switch between one at a time. Kinect works by projecting an IR dot pattern over all surfaces, which it uses to build a Z buffer. Having more than one kinect = dot pattern overlap. Unless you halve the capture frame rate and pulse the patterns from alternate kinects, but the capture rate on Kinect is low as it is.

geo_n
04-12-2013, 07:41 AM
I hope they update to two kinects. We're using ipisoft and with only one kinect its very limited. The best you can do is get an animation of a character standing waving their arms or moving their legs JUST to show motion but its not very useful motion. You need atleast two kinects or 4 ps3 cams to get useable motions that a character makes and occlusion won't be a problem in this case.


We need 2 kinect compatibility if we want to use usable body motion...
I have one Kinect and JimmyRig and i think it's only good to say Hello and move like a retarded.

yep one kinect is just for demo that it works but not really useful especially for real work and to avoid occlusion.

erikals
04-12-2013, 08:07 AM
We need 2 kinect compatibility if we want to use usable body motion...
I have one Kinect and JimmyRig and i think it's only good to say Hello and move like a retarded.

i'm sure NT will add support for two once Microsoft supports it.
(or an open-source project releases a two-kinects feature)

Greenlaw
04-12-2013, 09:43 AM
Is it possible to use 2 kinects at once? The multi-kinect setups I've seen only seem to let you switch between one at a time....

Dual Kinects is not officially supported by Microsoft yet but I've been using dual Kinects with iPi Mocap Studio for almost a year and a half now--in fact, Happy Box (http://www.littlegreendog.com/movies/happyBox/happyBox.php#.UWgl6MqRe2A) was almost entirely captured using the dual Kinect system. So, yes, two Kinects simultaneously recording a single subject has been possible for some time now.

The way it works in iPi Mocap Studio is that you can position the Kinects at a 90 degrees or near 180 for full coverage--occlusion is only occasionally an issue even with the 90 degree setup (which is what I use most of the time. IMO, 90 is a little more accurate because of the overlap, but it really depends on the type of motion you're trying to capture.) It generates a point cloud simultaneously from both angles and then merges the two in the tracking program to form a more complete volume of the subject. The rig is then driven by the volume. It's not a realtime process but but it's pretty fast and it's significantly more accurate than any of the realtime Kinect-based systems currently out there. There are a few gotcha's to be aware of--for example, if you shoot in a room with natural light, IR pollution from outdoors can corrupt the data. Also, you need to watch out for reflective surfaces like mirrors, shiny floors, shiny clothing, etc.--this will bounce the rays and give you inaccurate results. Follow the rules though, and you're golden.

Additionally, the system can capture from multiple PS Move and/or Wii controllers for recording other motion from your body--wrist, props and head rotations for example. In the Sister motion test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY) mentioned above, you can see this combo of tools in action (minus the PS Move head tracking because this feature was released only about a week ago.)

In an upcoming iPi Mocap Studio update, the software will allow you to capture two performers simultaneously plus independent auxiliary controllers for each person. I think this configuration will require six PS3 Eye cameras though and probably won't work with Kinect.

It exports in many formats, including FBX and DAE. I use FBX to Motion Builder for retargeting and editing, and then MB FBX to LightWave. I use MB because, even though Mocap Studio has a built-in retargeting system it does not currently have animation tools.

Here's a test we did from about a year ago (March 2012) using dual Kinects positioned at 90-degrees. At the time this test really pushed the system's capabilities and we were all surprised that it worked this well. (I think the developers were surprised too.) :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJZabVZqCl0

You can see the simultaneous recording from each Kinect in the PIP. The two Kinects not only record depth but RGB video too. iPi Soft intends to use RGB data to enhance the mocap accuracy in an upcoming release. Currently, the RGB streams are primarily used for visual reference for minor edits and aligning the hand for the wrist tracking devices.

Anyway, it will be good to see a Kinect based system natively and directly supported by LightWave but I just wanted to point out that a mature dual Kinect mocap solution already exists and it works quite well with LightWave.

G.

dsol
04-12-2013, 09:54 AM
That's really awesome. Damn, I might have to set up a windows box so I can play with this myself (not much Kinect love for us OSX users!)

tyrot
04-14-2013, 06:08 AM
greenlaw awesome tests .. Do you have full IPI - Lightwave - Kinect tutorial ?

I also have JimmyRig + single Kinect - it is good for basic hand and body moves .. ( unfortunately no news from Enki - adding second Kinect etc)

So my interest is focusing on IPI or should i wait for LW's native solution...(genoma + kinect(s))

erikals
04-14-2013, 06:22 AM
that's a good question, the good thing is that LW now supports 1 Kinect but also PS-Move controllers,
maybe those controllers could be used to record wrist and head movement as well...?

to me, it depends on when LW will support 2 Kinects...

silviotoledo
04-14-2013, 07:54 AM
Does Lightwave, actually, do MOCAP using one Kinect?

tyrot
04-14-2013, 08:14 AM
at NAB 2013 presentation - they showed a short demo - check that out

erikals
04-14-2013, 08:45 AM
it looks to be included in LW12, yes...

Greenlaw
04-14-2013, 10:28 AM
greenlaw awesome tests .. Do you have full IPI - Lightwave - Kinect tutorial ?
Thanks for asking. After we finish 'Brudders 2' and assuming there is enough interest, I think I might do a series of tutorials or a couple of courses based on the production, and mocap should be covered. Depending on the scope of this project and my time available to do it, it will either be a few short videos on YouTube or a more comprehensive course for purchase and download. Nothing firm yet, just something in the back of my head. Right now I just want to get this movie done . :)



that's a good question, the good thing is that LW now supports 1 Kinect but also PS-Move controllers,
maybe those controllers could be used to record wrist and head movement as well...?

to me, it depends on when LW will support 2 Kinects...
One nice thing with iPi Mocap Studio is that it doesn't require a PS3 or Wii game console to use the motion controllers--it just needs a bluetooth adapter. (Tip: I use a USB repeater cable to run a $20 bluetooth USB stick closer to the performance space to improve accuracy.) But this works because the software is only capturing rotational data from the controllers and getting the positional data from the rig's skeleton tracked by the Kinect(s). Technically, as far as the PS Move is concerned, what LW does is more advanced because it's capturing both rotational and positional data through the game console--but that system is also a bit more complicated, and probably better suited for VR camera use. This is not a criticism of either system, just pointing out a difference. I don't think LightWave currently has a bluetooth-only option but I imagine they could add it easily--iPi Soft has their own PS Move/Wii Motion Plus to bluetooth driver but there does exist an openSource driver called 'Motion in Joy'. (I think iPi recommends this if you use Windows 8.)

Anyway, the point being, if you have positional data from the bones, then all you need is rotational data from the motion controllers. The question is, can most desktop computers handle this much streaming data for live motion capture. This is a notable advantage with iPi Mocap Studio's two step process--by separating motion capture and motion tracking into two steps, the system can focus all CPU/GPU processing for each task, resulting in greater accuracy and advanced capabilities, and compatibility with more 'common' desktop computers.

G.

Samus
04-14-2013, 10:50 AM
Hi GreenLaw... So your saying if i have a psMove only and IPI software i can run mocap without the Playstation Console ???

Kaptive
04-14-2013, 10:52 AM
greenlaw awesome tests .. Do you have full IPI - Lightwave - Kinect tutorial ?

I also have JimmyRig + single Kinect - it is good for basic hand and body moves .. ( unfortunately no news from Enki - adding second Kinect etc)

So my interest is focusing on IPI or should i wait for LW's native solution...(genoma + kinect(s))

Just wanted to put this here... This is what the Jimmy Rig team had to say about multi kinects (several posts amalgamated into one)


Once Microsoft's solver is multi kinect, we will automatically support it. Supposedly, they are working on that so it doesn't make sense for us to duplicate efforts.

Yes, the SDK supports multiple kinects, however, not for skeleton solving YET. Once Microsoft supports their own skeleton solving in the SDK, it'll work with JR as well.

Greenlaw
04-14-2013, 03:37 PM
Hi GreenLaw... So your saying if i have a psMove only and IPI software i can run mocap without the Playstation Console ???
The PS Move and/or Wii Motion Plus is only for hands and head--you still need one or two Kinects or four to six PS3 Eye cameras for body capture. But apart from that, yes, all you need is a Bluetooth adapter for the 'handheld' devices--no console needed. I put 'Handheld' is in quotes because you can fix one to your head (see my photo above) or to attach it to a prop you can carry (like a sword, gun, or musical instrument for example.)

G.

Greenlaw
04-14-2013, 03:41 PM
It may seem funny but we currently have two Kinects for XBox, two Kinects for Windows, three PS Move Controllers, and six PS3 Eye cameras but we do not own an XBox or a PS3 game console.

We also have two Wii Motion Plus devices which we do not use for mocap but we actually own a Wii console to play games with--we bought the Wii long before we were doing any mocap in our home studio. :)

G.

Samus
04-17-2013, 07:00 PM
Thanks Greenlaw!! ill have to look into this..really interesting.

geo_n
04-17-2013, 07:29 PM
Brekel is working with multi kinect in real time(live) so it would be interesting if lightwave went this direction and not the Ipi direction. As nice as Ipi is working for us and its the only one with two kinect support at this time, its still not fast and going back and forth to redo mocap is time consuming because of the preprocess involved.

Philbert
04-17-2013, 11:40 PM
I have done basic Kinect mocap for projects using iPiSoft. I was able to do things like take a few steps, turn and "press buttons" to the side, then face forward and take another few steps. That worked pretty well, but I think one difference is that iPiSoft records video with depth information from the Kinect and then processes the motion capture later, it's not real time like Brekel or like LightWave presumably is. That said I'm really looking forward to seeing what can be done with this. As for the Leap, I'm really excited about that too, not just for mocap type stuff, but also for the high res 3D scanning you should be able to do with it at some point. Last I heard ReconstructMe was working on this but needed access to some part of the API from Leap Motion or something and was trying to get it from them.

lino.grandi
04-18-2013, 09:42 AM
Kinect support in LightWave happens through Virtual Studio. So it's absolutely Real Time. ;)

cresshead
04-18-2013, 09:45 AM
Kinect support in LightWave happens through Virtual Studio. So it's absolutely Real Time. ;)

post da video please!
let's see how you set this up and how it works.

CaptainMarlowe
04-18-2013, 10:55 AM
Kinect support in LightWave happens through Virtual Studio. So it's absolutely Real Time. ;)

Is it due for 12 or 11.5.1 ? ;)

blueshift
04-18-2013, 11:04 AM
I was just about to purchase IClone Animation Pipeline $600, when I saw Lino Grandi's post about Kinect being supported in Virtual Studio. I have LW 10, does that support the Kinect in VS or would I have to upgrade to 11.5?
If I have to upgrade to 11.5 to use Kinect I would rather spend $495 on the upgrade rather than $600 for IClone. I have a plugin for LW that imports all My Daz Characters and assets so it seems I would be wasting money on Iclone? What do you think?

Ztreem
04-18-2013, 11:24 AM
Kinect support in LightWave happens through Virtual Studio. So it's absolutely Real Time. ;)

I hope it works with just connecting the kinect to the computer and virtual studio finds it. So it's not like the ps3 move disappointment.:devil:

Hail
04-18-2013, 12:03 PM
I hope it works with just connecting the kinect to the computer and virtual studio finds it. So it's not like the ps3 move disappointment.:devil:

Really?
How was it a disappointment?

erikals
04-18-2013, 12:23 PM
i think you have to have the PS3 as well... (so, i slight minus, still, a PS3 ain't all that these days...)

Philbert
04-18-2013, 12:33 PM
I love my PS3, I have one of the first models to come out, with all the backwards compatibility and all. Over 6 years old and still running strong. Now I just have to pick up a Move to use with LightWave.

CaptainMarlowe
04-18-2013, 12:35 PM
My concern with kinect is : will it work on Mac ?

Philbert
04-18-2013, 12:45 PM
I had to double check but apparently it does connect to macs so I would assume it would work with LW there too.

CaptainMarlowe
04-18-2013, 01:15 PM
THAT would be awesome, I do see a lot of use for mocap+genoma (or genoma+mocap).

Ztreem
04-18-2013, 01:41 PM
Really?
How was it a disappointment?

A minus is that you need the whole ps3 not just the move controllers, but the big disappointment is that you need a special software for the ps3 that is not available in Europe.

Greenlaw
04-18-2013, 01:51 PM
I was just about to purchase IClone Animation Pipeline $600, when I saw Lino Grandi's post about Kinect being supported in Virtual Studio. I have LW 10, does that support the Kinect in VS or would I have to upgrade to 11.5?
If I have to upgrade to 11.5 to use Kinect I would rather spend $495 on the upgrade rather than $600 for IClone. I have a plugin for LW that imports all My Daz Characters and assets so it seems I would be wasting money on Iclone? What do you think?
We purchased the full iClone bundle too, about a year ago. We intend to try it out later this year on a 'machinima style' project we have in mind (after we finish 'Brudders 2' of course.) We haven't had time to test iClone/Pipeline yet but in addition to Kinect support, the software appears to have a full range of mocap editing tools including retargeting, something that isn't included with LightWave. With Pipeline, you also get FBX I\O, so this might serve as a economical substitute for the more expensive Motion Builder. If that's the case, then I don't think you've wasted your money. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try it out.

FYI, we currently use Motion Builder as an intermediary program between Mocap Studio and LightWave but for a variety of reasons (specifically related to the project,) we're very interested in trying iClone when we get the chance.

Sorry, I don't have any firm information about iClone to LightWave, but I hope this is somewhat helpful.

I don't know what NewTek has in mind but I imagine their Kinect interface is using the standard Microsoft SDK used by many single-Kinect capture programs (including iClone.) What will distinguish it from the others will be the tools available for retargeting, clean up and editing. As already mentioned, LightWave doesn't feature retargeting yet but with the right rigging, you can at least edit your recordings. This is pure speculation but I imagine they will provide a Genoma preset for Kinect.

This is just a personal opinion but I think realtime Kinect recording is not necessarily the way to go for capturing high quality data. The Kinect is only a 30 fps device so it tends to lose track of motions and the motions lack subtlety. But with reasonable expectations, you could still do some nice things with it.

However it works out, NewTek's 'Kinect enabled' release of LightWave should be very interesting. :)

G.

Greenlaw
04-18-2013, 02:05 PM
A minus is that you need the whole ps3 not just the move controllers, but the big disappointment is that you need a special software for the ps3 that is not available in Europe.
I don't see how that's a disappointment--to capture motion you need more than just the rotational data sent by PS Move alone. The PS3 game console, FYI, is also being used to record positional data--without that, all you will get is a spinning object in Lightwave, no translation. There's no way around this.

It works without the console in iPi Mocap Studio because the software doesn't bother capturing translation. iPi Mocap Studio doesn't require PS Move positional data because it already has that information from the tracked actor's bones (wrist, head, prop,)--all it needs from the PS Move (via bluetooth,) is the rotational data. Now, if NewTek took a similar approach, combining PS Move recording with Kinect body recording, then you should be able to use the PS Move without the console.

This is a very specific use of the PS Move of course. If you want to use the PS Move as a virtual camera, you'll probably want to use it with a console instead.

Again, I'm just speculating. :)

G.

Ztreem
04-18-2013, 03:00 PM
I don't see how that's a disappointment--to capture motion you need more than just the rotational data sent by PS Move alone. The PS3 game console, FYI, is also being used to record positional data--without that, all you will get is a spinning object in Lightwave, no translation. There's no way around this.

It works without the console in iPi Mocap Studio because the software doesn't bother capturing translation. iPi Mocap Studio doesn't require PS Move positional data because it already has that information from the tracked actor's bones (wrist, head, prop,)--all it needs from the PS Move (via bluetooth,) is the rotational data. Now, if NewTek took a similar approach, combining PS Move recording with Kinect body recording, then you should be able to use the PS Move without the console.

This is a very specific use of the PS Move of course. If you want to use the PS Move as a virtual camera, you'll probably want to use it with a console instead.

Again, I'm just speculating. :)

G.

To clarify: the big disappointment is when you see a new feture demonstrated and sold like a plug n play solution and then realize that it's only for the ones living in the US. I don't own a ps3 so it's no biggie, just hope that same thing is not happening with the kinect. :)

Greenlaw
04-18-2013, 03:35 PM
To clarify: the big disappointment is when you see a new feture demonstrated and sold like a plug n play solution and then realize that it's only for the ones living in the US. I don't own a ps3 so it's no biggie, just hope that same thing is not happening with the kinect. :)
Ah, I gotcha...sorry for the misunderstanding. I wonder what the hold up is on that software? It does seem pointless to limit their sales like that.

That said, unless NewTek writes their own drivers, it's probably out of their hands. Or...another option might be for them to license the drivers for inclusion with LightWave. For all I know, they may have tried to do that and was turned down, but it probably wouldn't hurt to submit a request via Fogbugz anyway.

G.

wesleycorgi
04-18-2013, 03:39 PM
I had to double check but apparently it does connect to macs so I would assume it would work with LW there too.

I've connected the Kinect with Mac using ZigFu. I ran a few of their sample apps with no problem. Then got busy, but want to dive back in soon. I'm interested in creating Unity visualizations using the Kinect and my main platform is Mac. I have also got the Kinect working with Jimmy Rig, but ran into a time crunch. Also the PC laptop I was using is now out of commission. So I have to find the right voodoo again to get JR to work.

erikals
04-18-2013, 03:59 PM
FogBugz > http://tinyurl.com/6ccg9gk

geo_n
04-18-2013, 08:15 PM
A minus is that you need the whole ps3 not just the move controllers, but the big disappointment is that you need a special software for the ps3 that is not available in Europe.

What is the special software? If you need to purchase regional ps3 software you can create different psn account. Atleast that's what's done for games. But I think what's disappointing is that you need another software to make it work. Why not make it work with lw natively.

erikals
04-19-2013, 06:57 AM
Why not make it work with lw natively.

because as Greenlaw explains above (#70) it's impossible, if you want it to work like a virtual camera.
for the special software though, yes, hopefully they can make it work without it.

blueshift
04-19-2013, 09:17 AM
We purchased the full iClone bundle too, about a year ago. We intend to try it out later this year on a 'machinima style' project we have in mind (after we finish 'Brudders 2' of course.) We haven't had time to test iClone/Pipeline yet but in addition to Kinect support, the software appears to have a full range of mocap editing tools including retargeting, something that isn't included with LightWave. With Pipeline, you also get FBX I\O, so this might serve as a economical substitute for the more expensive Motion Builder. If that's the case, then I don't think you've wasted your money. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try it out.

FYI, we currently use Motion Builder as an intermediary program between Mocap Studio and LightWave but for a variety of reasons (specifically related to the project,) we're very interested in trying iClone when we get the chance.

Sorry, I don't have any firm information about iClone to LightWave, but I hope this is somewhat helpful.

I don't know what NewTek has in mind but I imagine their Kinect interface is using the standard Microsoft SDK used by many single-Kinect capture programs (including iClone.) What will distinguish it from the others will be the tools available for retargeting, clean up and editing. As already mentioned, LightWave doesn't feature retargeting yet but with the right rigging, you can at least edit your recordings. This is pure speculation but I imagine they will provide a Genoma preset for Kinect.

This is just a personal opinion but I think realtime Kinect recording is not necessarily the way to go for capturing high quality data. The Kinect is only a 30 fps device so it tends to lose track of motions and the motions lack subtlety. But with reasonable expectations, you could still do some nice things with it.

However it works out, NewTek's 'Kinect enabled' release of LightWave should be very interesting. :)

G.
I see a lot of people here referring to the Kinect for Ps3 and Xbox but I purchased the Kinect for Windows and the SDK was written specifically for Windows to allow app developers such as NewTek to support it directly from within their app without the need for a game controller or any workaround to make the game controller Kinect work with the app. This is what I believe Lino Grandi was referring to in regards to Virtual Studio. I'm trying to avoid the kind of redundancy i've experienced in the past such as purchasing a camera tracker plugin for After Effects only to find a few months later when I upgraded to Adobe CS6 Cloud membership that After Effects had included new Camera Tracking capabilities making my plugin unnessasary . Ditto with FPrime when I upgraded Lightwave. Right now I'm trying to discover if the support for Kinect in Virtual Studio that Lino Grandi spoke of would work in my LightWave ver10 since I have VS in ver10 of LightWave or do I have to upgrade to 11.5 to get that capability ? I definitely want to upgrade to LW 11.5 but at the moment it's a financial choice either LW or Iclone I want the Kinect mocap capabilities but I can't afford both right now. I really hope I can just upgrade LW and get mocap via Virtual Studio.

Greenlaw
04-19-2013, 11:27 AM
FWIW, 11.5 doesn't have that yet. That doesn't mean you shouldn't upgrade but it does mean you won't immediately have direct Kinect support in LightWave if you do. I don't think anybody here (except maybe Lino,) knows when Kinect support will become publicly available. My guess is that it will be around or after Siggraph--and that's absolutely just a guess.

As for compatibility with version 10, that's a great question. Unless it's using something specific to LightWave 11, it might work with 10 if NewTek decides to offer this to LW 10 users. Of course, with 10, you still won't have Genoma or any new mocap editing tools that might be introduced in the official 'Kinect' release. Of course, I'm totally speculating again. Hopefully we'll have real information before long.

BTW, we use two Kinect for Windows with iPi Mocap Studio on our short films. We also have two Kinect for XBox here (which were used for 'Happy Box',) one of which died recently. Either version of Kinect is generally the same hardware but the software for the Windows version has a few advantages.

Some differences:

1. The XBox version is a lot cheaper.
2. The Windows version features near mode--not useful at all for full body capture but it can be useful if you also intend to do face capture or small scanning with the device.
3. The XBox drivers are not officially supported by Microsoft, only the Windows version is. For now, this is not a problem but for, better or worse, the situation may change at the whim of Microsoft.
4. The Windows version is compatible with more third party 3D software on the PC. I'm not sure Kinect for Windows will work with an XBox. (Not important to me since I don't have an XBox.)
5. In iPi Mocap Studio, the quality of the RGB stream is much higher when using Kinect for Windows. At present, this is only somewhat useful because you can use the data as visual reference (for calibrating the hand rotation, for example.) However, in the future, iPi intends to use the RGB data to enhance the tracking data it generates from the depth data. This should result in even higher quality mocap data than creates now.

At the moment, I'm very interested in Carmine, an affordable alternative to Kinect for Windows. The quality of the data is supposed to be a bit higher than Kinect. The downside is that you may need to buy two different versions of the device if you want to do full body and close-up scanning. But we're not buying any new gear until after we finish our film, so I'm trying hard not to think about this.

FYI, there is no 'Kinect for PS3'. You might be confusing this with the PS Move, which is a hand held controller for the PS3. We use three of these devices in simultaneously with two Kinects. The Kinects are used to capture the body, and the PS Move devices record the rotation of the hands and head because the Kinect's resolution and frame rate is not high enough to record these body parts accurately. Technically, iPi Mocap Studio can track the head (the Sister Mocap Test mentioned earlier uses this method) but the PS Move capture is far more accurate. Additional note: You can also use the Wii Motion Plus to record rotation with iPi Mocap Studio--it's not as accurate as the PS Move though. According to iPi Soft, there is no specified limit to the number of devices you can use to record mocap--but you may be limited by the capability of your computer or bluetooth device/drivers. Some users, for example, are currently using as many as 8 PS3 Eye cameras with iPi Mocap Studio--that's pretty crazy but cool. :)

G.

geo_n
04-19-2013, 11:29 AM
because as Greenlaw explains above (#70) it's impossible, if you want it to work like a virtual camera.
for the special software though, yes, hopefully they can make it work without it.

Impossible with text and code? How about unification? :D
If you make something similar to the required ps3 software and integrate it into lightwave then its not impossible to use without the ps3 software.

geo_n
04-19-2013, 09:30 PM
This looks great. For lw 11.5.
http://waskul.tv/portfolio/nab-show-2013rob-powers-demonstrates-new-motion-capture-in-robot-demo/

Philbert
04-19-2013, 10:19 PM
What's curious was how Rob said this is built into LW 11.5... Into an upcoming release of 11.5? I don't think my 11.5 will even recognize my Kinect let alone control a character with it.

geo_n
04-19-2013, 10:22 PM
He said its for lw 11.5 so there must be a point release coming. Something to counter the modo 701 release?

CaptainMarlowe
04-20-2013, 12:03 AM
A word about wether it is in lw11.5 scope or not from a lw3dg offical would certainly be much appreciated.

Samus
04-20-2013, 12:17 AM
LW/Kinect at NAB...hmmm Interesting... http://waskul.tv/portfolio/nab-show-2013rob-powers-demonstrates-new-motion-capture-in-robot-demo/

Whoops!! did not notice the link wass already up...oh Well...Lightwave needs this kind of Promotion anyways!!
Cheers!!

jwiede
04-20-2013, 03:38 AM
A word about wether it is in lw11.5 scope or not from a lw3dg offical would certainly be much appreciated.
Yes, since Rob clearly stated it was "in 11.5" there are probably customers buying/upgrading to 11.5 now to obtain the feature, and getting quite confused by its apparent absence. Some sort of clarification from LW3DG would be useful to avoid confusion.

geo_n
04-20-2013, 04:33 AM
I doubt Rob would make the mistake as announcing a feature intended for lw 12 to be included for lw 11.5.
He said lw 11.5 but it could mean the polished version could be in lw 12 :D
Or maybe its a mistake like what Adobe did giving away software with serails. :D

Samus
04-20-2013, 11:39 AM
I think this is possible... a equivalent of NAB in Japan did the same thing on lightwa about 4 to 6 months ago : Here http://www.dstorm.co.jp/archives/press/LW10_KinectP_20111115.pdf

cresshead
04-20-2013, 01:37 PM
i's not in 11.5 as yet, heard from a guy at newtek the other week, it's arriving soon though

tyrot
04-20-2013, 02:42 PM
Ok but what is the workflow?

What can you do with a recorded animation - if you do not have something like Jimmy Rig's easy to use - transition mixer -

I always find MotionMixer terribly confusing - it KILLS me - when i compare it with Character Studio's easy to use motion mixer..

I do not know - how you will BLEND those animations - And you must RIG / Skining the character before having Kinect connection right? Is there any development on AUTO weighting?

and ONE kinect support no matter what is a kid's toy . At least 2 Kinects must be supported ...

- IN 2013 lightwave deserve - LAST decade's Character Studio ... Stop playing with PSMove and one Kinect! - if you do not add easily please GO and BUY some codes from ENKI (origami digital) at least for auto WEIGHTING and motion mixer.

Why Autodesk bought character Studio years ago - and simply became "the software" for character animations . WHY NT cannot buy or offer something to acquire technologies like Jimmy Rig?

So you cannot impress anybody with ONE kinect connection (and prehistoric motionmixer) - PEOPLE SAW IT . We - lightwave users are using since JimmyRig introduced couple of years ago.

(as a side note - I watched that presentation , I admire personal accomplishments of Rob , but lately half of his presentations becoming more like - personal biography of "How did I help James Cameron using Lightwave" ... instead of what YOU - a mortal user- CAN do with lightwave.
Because i believe many others who does not have such opportunity - have terrible clients asking for simple Character animation tasks which can be done in SECONDS in Max 2004 or whatever.
Also talking so much about "PREVIZ stage of AVATAR" makes Lightwave like a PREVIZish tool in those presentations... which is kind of a sad truth actually)

Samus
04-20-2013, 02:45 PM
If it's not in 11.5 may they add IPHONE AND Android Accelerometer Support to control any Channels !!!

blueshift
04-20-2013, 03:18 PM
I doubt Rob would make the mistake as announcing a feature intended for lw 12 to be included for lw 11.5.
He said lw 11.5 but it could mean the polished version could be in lw 12 :D
Or maybe its a mistake like what Adobe did giving away software with serails. :D

I may be wrong but since Rob Powers clearly stated that the Kinect support is available in LW ver.11.5 then NewTek I believe would
be legally required to honor that statement even if it was a mistake and it was intended for ver12.
I believe this would fall under the heading of false advertising even though it was unintentional.There have been Merchants of other products
who have been required to sell their product at a price that was mistakenly printed in a newspaper ad. Hence $0.29 cent TVs or $1.49 refridgerators.

I have not personally encountered any of these purchasing opportunities or maybe it's just an urban myth?

cresshead
04-20-2013, 03:43 PM
I may be wrong but since Rob Powers clearly stated that the Kinect support is available in LW ver.11.5 then NewTek I believe would
be legally required to honor that statement even if it was a mistake and it was intended for ver12.
I believe this would fall under the heading of false advertising even though it was unintentional.There have been Merchants of other products
who have been required to sell their product at a price that was mistakenly printed in a newspaper ad. Hence $0.29 cent TVs or $1.49 refridgerators.

I have not personally encountered any of these purchasing opportunities or maybe it's just an urban myth?

things can change, i bought into Core only to get lightwave 10 for example and that still hurts.
however i now only go on what IS and not what might be.

so once it's IN lightwave i'll have a look.

Greenlaw
04-20-2013, 05:06 PM
Doesn't iPhone/Android only report rotation though? I don't know, just asking as I haven't kept up on the latest with using phones for motion tracking.

I do know that iPi Soft was looking into this but they may have decided it's cheaper to use a PS Move controller instead. (The rotation data from the Move's magnetometer is pretty accurate.)

BTW, if anybody is interested, here's the latest version of my DIY mocap head gear: Mocap Helmet Update (http://littlegreendog.blogspot.com/2013/04/mocap-helmet-update.html)

G.

COBRASoft
04-20-2013, 06:39 PM
I guess the Kinect stuff is coming in 11.5.1 or something similar. Lino already stated on this forum they fixed some bugs already and it's coming to us... So, be a bit patient and enjoy what you have in 11.5 today. There's plenty to do awesome stuff with I think.

I'm more interested who Lightwave has hired recently and what those people will do for 'us'. I for one am looking forward to news in this regard.

shrox
04-20-2013, 06:54 PM
I may be wrong but since Rob Powers clearly stated that the Kinect support is available in LW ver.11.5 then NewTek I believe would
be legally required to honor that statement even if it was a mistake and it was intended for ver12.
I believe this would fall under the heading of false advertising even though it was unintentional.There have been Merchants of other products
who have been required to sell their product at a price that was mistakenly printed in a newspaper ad. Hence $0.29 cent TVs or $1.49 refridgerators.

I have not personally encountered any of these purchasing opportunities or maybe it's just an urban myth?

A verbal mistake or misprint does not obligate a company to something.

LW_Will
04-21-2013, 12:24 AM
If it's not in 11.5 may they add IPHONE AND Android Accelerometer Support to control any Channels !!!

And put the video in the screen of the iPhone/touch/android...

well, I was thinking about that...

LW_Will
04-21-2013, 12:34 AM
Looking at the video, what a difference a year makes.

Last year, the two men in the Japan video (Sorry, don't know who they are.) were using the Kinect in a rather shaky demo of the beta version of the plugin.

Now, Rob and Lino were using a totally stable rig... with an articulated voice! (actually, I need that one, too...BID...)

I think there is a knack to setting up the virtual studio... a piece of software may be involved as well.

My only trepidation is that if it used another piece of software other than OpenNI. Something that would be included in the Kinect for Windows... which is MUCH more expensive than the XBox version.

Me, and my two Kinects for XBox will wait... patiently... until 11.5.X...

11.5.XBox?

No, don't really think that... but it would be cool if it were.

3djock
04-21-2013, 08:09 AM
What's curious was how Rob said this is built into LW 11.5... Into an upcoming release of 11.5? I don't think my 11.5 will even recognize my Kinect let alone control a character with it. My same thoughts when I was watching the video. I thought cool where is it ? I could use it..

lino.grandi
04-21-2013, 11:49 AM
My same thoughts when I was watching the video. I thought cool where is it ? I could use it..

Sorry about that. Of course we were using 11.5, but what you can see is not included in the current release.

It's a little bit like showing, let's say, Turbulence, and saying we're showing it in 11.5. That doesn't mean Turbulence it's included in 11.5. But I can see how this can be taken in different ways. ;)

3djock
04-21-2013, 12:57 PM
Sorry about that. Of course we were using 11.5, but what you can see is not included in the current release.

It's a little bit like showing, let's say, Turbulence, and saying we're showing it in 11.5. That doesn't mean Turbulence it's included in 11.5. But I can see how this can be taken in different ways. ;)
Understandable, but you did say 11.5 and not 11.5x next, so I think it confuses who ever is watching. Anyways, cannot wait to use it when it comes out thanks Lino..

lino.grandi
04-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Understandable, but you did say 11.5 and not 11.5x next, so I think it confuses who ever is watching. Anyways, cannot wait to use it when it comes out thanks Lino..

Yes, you're right...it's confusing.

We're doing our best to make it easy to use and productive! Can't wait to be able to show some more videos about it!

chikega
04-21-2013, 01:15 PM
I watched the NAB 2013 video ... did you create the robot, Lino? If so, nice job! :)

jwiede
04-21-2013, 07:00 PM
Ok but what is the workflow?

What can you do with a recorded animation - if you do not have something like Jimmy Rig's easy to use - transition mixer -

I always find MotionMixer terribly confusing - it KILLS me - when i compare it with Character Studio's easy to use motion mixer..

I do not know - how you will BLEND those animations - And you must RIG / Skining the character before having Kinect connection right? Is there any development on AUTO weighting?

and ONE kinect support no matter what is a kid's toy . At least 2 Kinects must be supported ...

- IN 2013 lightwave deserve - LAST decade's Character Studio ... Stop playing with PSMove and one Kinect! - if you do not add easily please GO and BUY some codes from ENKI (origami digital) at least for auto WEIGHTING and motion mixer.

Why Autodesk bought character Studio years ago - and simply became "the software" for character animations . WHY NT cannot buy or offer something to acquire technologies like Jimmy Rig?
I strongly agree with this. VirtualStudio is a really nice piece of kit, but the lack of mocap data editing, and efficient, non-destructive tools for applying and manipulating the data in LW really limit its practical usability. Without those capabilities, it feels like most would be better off pulling the mocap input directly into the app they'll need to use for editing/managing that data -- those apps already have broad input capabilities and often better "track/take management" options as well.

LW's VirtualStudio is good, but it isn't a one-stop solution by itself (which seems to be the LW mantra of late). For it to be that, we must have decent, efficient capabilities for editing, blending, applying, etc. the mocap data once captured, and at the moment we do not. Between motion mixer and IKB the "rough beginnings" of such capabilities can be seen, but practically they're just not up to the task. The existing workflow and tools require significant improvement to reach even JimmyRig/Animeeple-level functionality, and that's what we need to avoid having to invoke a mocap handling app (iow, to make LW a one-stop mocap handling solution).

Samus
04-22-2013, 06:27 AM
As far as i've seen around the web..; it's a Lightwave Motion Plugin that links the kinect data....and so the Japanese kinect demo was done on Lightwave 10....so it's a plugin. SAd though that Rob played with words on THAT ....i Almos bought a Kinect just to add this to my arsenal. I guess better invest in IPI / kinect....Cause i'm sure it's gonna be kept till Siggraph and then wait till Famous "Q4" then Febuary of 2014....SIGH !!!!!!

Lino! Please push Newtek to be Clear on this...dont get me wrong i Love Lightwave...But got fooled once with the PSmove think that needed an actual PS3 an not the Move Only.
Anyways.... Great work on the Genoma Updates script....if Newtek could be as responsive. :)

erikals
04-22-2013, 07:01 AM
the iPi Basic Edition cost $600
http://ipisoft.com/software/basic-edition

but with volume disount it goes down to $300

maybe there is interest here of doing something similar to what we did with Turbulence?
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133047-TurbulenceFD-LightWave-User-Group-Purchase

TheMightySpud
04-22-2013, 08:05 AM
Well I just went out and spent money to get this functionality. Thanks Newtek/Lightwave group people for not making it clear that this wasn't actually available yet. *very annoyed and disgruntled customer*

geo_n
04-22-2013, 09:11 AM
Sorry about that. Of course we were using 11.5, but what you can see is not included in the current release.

It's a little bit like showing, let's say, Turbulence, and saying we're showing it in 11.5. That doesn't mean Turbulence it's included in 11.5. But I can see how this can be taken in different ways. ;)

That's even more confusing now. :D
So this could mean that you were using lw 11.5 for demo purposes but it doesn't mean its going to be for lw 11 at all. :D
Could be for lw 12 and shown at siggraph this q3? I think i need to watch the video again to hear exactly what Rob said. :D In any case this is a great feature which I'm eager to test since I have two kinects that I can borrow. :D

Jim M
04-22-2013, 10:22 AM
A verbal mistake or misprint does not obligate a company to something.

True.
Or in fact even an offer which has been repeated for decades and is very common.... even though it is entirely false ..... "Buy one, Get one free" ... which is just a lie. That always bothers me.

Greenlaw
04-22-2013, 10:24 AM
Well I just went out and spent money to get this functionality. Thanks Newtek/Lightwave group people for not making it clear that this wasn't actually available yet. *very annoyed and disgruntled customer*

If Kinect input was the only reason you purchased the upgrade, I think you should re-examine the features that are actually in 11.5 right now. Even without direct Kinect support, it's a very significant upgrade.

And direct Kinect input does appear to be coming to 11.x.x anyway. Though, IMO, it's not THE reason most professionals and studios should upgrade for--far more compelling reasons already exist for using 11.5 in a production environment.

Just my 2-cents. :)

G.

TheMightySpud
04-22-2013, 10:24 AM
Direct Quote from this vid.....

http://waskul.tv/portfolio/nab-show-2013rob-powers-demonstrates-new-motion-capture-in-robot-demo/

1 minute 07 seconds in.....

"now the cool thing about 11.5 is this is incorporated in the Software, there's nothing special we have to do to make this work"

At the risk of sounding like an ***, personally, based on the fact that I've spent money specifically for this feature, I'd like something of an explanation of what's going on.

- - - Updated - - -

I went out and bought a Kinect, I already have 11.5.

Greenlaw
04-22-2013, 10:33 AM
Sorry, I misunderstood.

That said, my guess is that they are using the Microsoft Kinect SDK like nearly every other program that supports Kinect--this is the most common way to add Kinect support these days. The software is free and I think it's widely available. You should be okay so long as Microsoft continues to support the device in their drivers.

Did you get Kinect for XBox or Kinect for Windows? If you got the Windows version, you should be good--just need to be patient. Kinect for XBox should be okay for now as I think it's still supported by the Microsoft Kinect for Windows SDK, though not officially. If Microsoft drops Kinect for XBox support from their Kinect for Windows drivers, there are third party openSource drivers that will continue to support Kinect of XBox. I think at that point, it will be up to NewTek to support third party drivers for Kinect for XBox or write their own.

In the meantime, you can experiment with Kinect based mocap with other programs. For example, you could try Brekel Pro or the iPi Mocap Studio trials. This may give you a feel for what to expect when the Kinect feature is available inside of LightWave.

Hope this helps.

G.

TheMightySpud
04-22-2013, 10:38 AM
The fact that 'it's coming' isn't really my issue. My issue is that in the NAB vids, (and don't get me wrong, I love that guy for what he's been doing with LW over the past year or so) Rob Powers explicitly states that it's in 11.5 and is ready to go right now, so I went out, bought the Kinect and set aside some time to have a go and do some experimenting and learn the virtual studio setup etc. only to find out that it doesn't actually exist yet, so I hope you can see why I am really annoyed.

jwiede
04-22-2013, 10:48 AM
Sorry about that. Of course we were using 11.5, but what you can see is not included in the current release.

It's a little bit like showing, let's say, Turbulence, and saying we're showing it in 11.5. That doesn't mean Turbulence it's included in 11.5. But I can see how this can be taken in different ways. ;)
Lino, I'm not sure the Turbulence example really clears things up. If Rob had shown fluid dynamics, said it was "incorporated in" 11.5, and failed to explicitly mention it was an existing third-party product, or that it would be "sold separately", I think customers would (rightfully) be confused/upset in that case upon finding out about such after the fact, particularly that it would be a separate purchase. Interpreting the phrase used, "incorporated in the software" (referring to 11.5), in the manner you're suggesting in the Turbulence example doesn't really make much sense, IMO.

tyrot
04-22-2013, 11:36 AM
Greenlaw it is really time to release a complete LW - IPI workflow tutorials till JimmyRig release something around June. I really cannot stand one more application with single Kinect support with no - real - workflow (even that app is Lightwave!)

Dont you think it is kind of sad to show PS or KINECT developments while you really do not have anything under the hood..

"Hey look here - we are supporting KINECT i impressed our landlord ... he didnt realize he was actually moving that character" Wow!

Yes...landlords are easy to impress.. how about - MAXed clients? BIPed Clients? ... real clients..

I was discussing with my MAX users other day - I still cannot explain why we do not have something like Character Studio.... will we have in future?

jwiede
04-22-2013, 11:49 AM
BTW, just to be clear, I don't think Newtek's done anything deliberately "wrong" in this matter. However, it does seem like there is a substantial gap between Rob's (rather explicit) statements at NAB about Kinect support, and what Newtek meant to convey, and I do believe Newtek needs to clear it up with customers before it does become a real issue.

That said, this is not (IMO) a case of customers misinterpreting what was said, Rob's statements and repeated use of the phrase "incorporated in" are rather unambiguous in meaning. If that isn't what was meant, Newtek should just issue a correction and move past it, but suggesting this is due to customer misinterpretation is neither accurate nor responsible.

Greenlaw
04-22-2013, 12:11 PM
Hi Tyrot,

At present I don't think I have time to create an in-depth tutorial because we're so busy working on our film, but I'll see if I can put together a brief workflow video this week. My intention is to create a full course or set up a Kickstarter to fund a detailed documentary about indie animated short film production but that project is a ways off.

TBH, as far as Kinect based mocap is concerned, I'm not doing a lot more over what's been documented online and in manuals but, I understand the frustration--it took me a long time to sort this stuff out and put it into productive use, and I had some guidance from experienced mocap users like Cageman and Rebel Hill, as well as help from several developers (iPi Soft, Animeeple, NewTek, etc.) Also, a lot of this information is scattered across many separate threads, blogs, and websites.

I'll post a link to the video in the 'Brudders 2 Production Log' (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-(Well-sort-of-)) thread when it's ready.

G.

Dillon
04-22-2013, 01:34 PM
Hi Lino,

I'm very confused by whats being said. As others have said, this seems confusing to many others as well.

Is kinect capability with lightwave a plugin we need to purchase, or is this in a forthcoming 11.5.x update? Which connect will we need to purchase (for xbox, or for pc?).

Thank you for clarifying.

Dillon



Yes, you're right...it's confusing.

We're doing our best to make it easy to use and productive! Can't wait to be able to show some more videos about it!

Greenlaw
04-22-2013, 02:40 PM
the iPi Basic Edition cost $600 http://ipisoft.com/software/basic-edition but with volume disount it goes down to $300
There's also the single Kinect Express edition for $295, and iPi Soft's software licenses are upgradeable when you're ready to move up. The single Kinect system, btw, is not bad--the feet tracking quality, for example, is typically more solid than with a realtime Kinect system. We used iPi DMC version 1.0 with a single Kinect for at least two shots in 'Happy Box' (though most of the shots were recorded with dual Kinect once that feature became available to us.)

Right now I think there is some kind of deal going on at Steam for the Express version--I don't know the details though.

G.

Andrewstopheles
04-22-2013, 02:57 PM
face plant

blueshift
04-23-2013, 06:25 AM
Everything I'm purchasing is out of pocket, I have no financial backing just me. Therefore although I would love to upgrade to LW 11.5 I just bought the Kinect for Windows with the intent of purchasing the Iclone 5 Animation Pipeline but then I saw the Nab presentation everyone is talking about here. I then thought great I can just upgrade to 11.5 and I'll have Mocap too. I read on and realized no not yet. My dilemma is I can't afford both LW 11.5 and Iclone right now.

I have friends who are into Independent film but I don't have an animation team just me. My main interest is to composite animation into Video. Character animation being so time consuming MoCap would be a huge help.
Do I wait for LW 11.5x and hope it will have full Realtime MoCap implemented for Kinect or will it be 2014 before it happens? Will it include those features that Greenlaw pointed out were missing from LW?
I can be patient but only to a point. It would be painful if I purchased Iclone now only to find one month later NewTek did implement it with all the bells and wistles and then not to be able to afford the LW upgrade.

geo_n
04-23-2013, 06:37 AM
Don't think Iclone allows export of motions to other 3d appz without buying this bundle. iClone Animation Pipeline
Then this bundle doesn't allow the use of your own mesh or custom models. IPI is more useful if you use your own character and rigs. You can use it with lw.
But I think lw with kinect is worth the wait instead if it comes out with lw 11.xx. Its really not clear though if it will be since Lino's statement is so vague.
Just in case in your situation I would wait for lw 12 and skip lw 11 if they dont include it with lw 11.

blueshift
04-23-2013, 09:27 AM
Yes geo_n you are correct but Iclone 5 Animation Pipeline is what I was planning on purchasing. $600. I'll have to revisit their website to verify this but as I remember it they claim to be able to import and export to and from all the major 3D apps and I did see the NewTek Logo on that screen. I thought I read somewhere here that IPI Soft was not realtime in some instances where I got the impression from the Iclone website that it was realtime in all instances. Like I said in my previous post I can be patient but only to a point. If it were 11.5x in a couple of weeks or a month ok but if it were LW 12 when? 1st qtr of 2014? 2nd qtr, 3rd qtr? How much would the upgrade be going from LW 10 to 12 going from 10 to 11.5 is $495.00. Considering the amount of interest this is generating I think it would be wise for NewTek to Make some kind of statement as to their plans for the Implementing of this feature for the Kinect I.E. which version, what they plan on implementing realtime MoCap? Retargetting ect. ect. If it takes too long I'll have to go with another app Iclone or IPI then no upgrade to LW for another year perhaps.
Limited budget and it would still be somewhat painfull if I bought Iclone and in qtr 1 of 2014 it was fully implemented in inLW 12 but a little less so since I would have 8 or 10 months of MoCap using IClone or IPI Soft.

geo_n
04-23-2013, 09:40 AM
Yep I mentioned the Iclone 5 Animation Pipeline but were you able to verify if you can use your own mesh and rigs created from lw then import to iclone? I think I heard this doesn't allow that so you're stuck with their mesh library and rigs. That seems to be the catch for this software.
IPI is not realtime but atleast you can use your own mesh and especially important, character rigs, to import/export with lw. The workflow is tedious and its better in other software with almost two clicks done. In lw you still have to do some vodoo with naming and hierarchy reparenting, etc.
So yeah its a big deal to have native kinect support for lw 11 for me as well.

cresshead
04-23-2013, 10:40 AM
Newtek seem to still be in development for the kinect mo-cap feature, i gues they want the implementation to be as smooth as possible with a kinect specific genoma rig and maybe a update to the motion clip tools. It's also possible they might implement the face capture capability of the kinect too...

for the time being i think brekel pro body is the best option for cheap mo cap.

http://www.brekel.com/?page_id=1048

as it supports 2 actors

113826

Greenlaw
04-23-2013, 10:47 AM
@blueshift,

I think you need to consider if it's really that important to you to have mocap capability right now. If not, you should wait and see what NewTek has to offer and compare the differences at that time. Otherwise, you're just stressing yourself out because, for the time being anyway, it's pointless to compare to an option that isn't available yet. In this case, patience may truly be a virtue.

But if you absolutely need mocap capture capability now, then obviously LightWave is currently not an option, and you should go with what is currently available. And there are other programs currently available with Kinect-based capture that don't cost $600.

Not meaning to muddy things up but here's one other alternative: Use iPi or Brekel to export a .bvh, then upload the data and your LightWave rig to Ikinema WebAnimate. Do your retargeting, editing mixing, whatever in Webanimate, and when you're done, download an FBX (it was free for a while but now I think you need to pay a fee to download--I don't know what it costs but I'm told it's very reasonable.) When you have your FBX, transfer the motion to your character in LightWave using the Merge Only Motion Envelopes option. That's one way--there are other ways, I'm sure.

And if you wait till after LightWave gets its own Kinect input, you can still export for Ikinema for retargeting and all that other stuff, and bring the data back to LightWave. And if NewTek happens to include retargeting, etc., at that time, all the better.

IMO, if you're going with iClone/Pipeline, you should consider if you will be using the program for anything other than than just its Kinect-based capture system and FBX I/O. Their mocap is actually a small part of what their system was created for (which is to use its realtime 'game engine' animation environment for machnima and previs,) and purchasing the whole kit just to use a plug-in and FBX I/O might be overkill.

The upgrade to LightWave 11.5, btw, is definitely worth $495 as it currently exists. The Kinect stuff, when included (assuming it's free,) should be considered a 'bonus' feature added on top of what was promised for the 11.0 cycle. Like iClone, the Kinect input coming to LightWave should be thought of as a small component (though a potentially useful one for some users) of a much, much bigger system.

G.

lino.grandi
04-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Newtek seem to still be in development for the kinect mo-cap feature, i gues they want the implementation to be as smooth as possible with a kinect specific genoma rig and maybe a update to the motion clip tools. It's also possible they might implement the face capture capability of the kinect too...


Stop spilling the beans! ;)

But yes, that's quite the direction we're going. ;)

- - - Updated - - -


I watched the NAB 2013 video ... did you create the robot, Lino? If so, nice job! :)

Yes I did. Thanks!

Greenlaw
04-23-2013, 12:01 PM
Mmm, spilled beans. Looking forward to tasting what's been cooking in NewTek's kitchen. :)

G.

3djock
04-23-2013, 12:07 PM
Stop spilling the beans! ;)

But yes, that's quite the direction we're going. ;)

- - - Updated - - -

Cannot wait to see some more video on it looks very promising.



Yes I did. Thanks!


I like spilled beans more please..

lino.grandi
04-23-2013, 12:16 PM
As far as i've seen around the web..; it's a Lightwave Motion Plugin that links the kinect data....and so the Japanese kinect demo was done on Lightwave 10....so it's a plugin. SAd though that Rob played with words on THAT ....i Almos bought a Kinect just to add this to my arsenal. I guess better invest in IPI / kinect....Cause i'm sure it's gonna be kept till Siggraph and then wait till Famous "Q4" then Febuary of 2014....SIGH !!!!!!

Lino! Please push Newtek to be Clear on this...dont get me wrong i Love Lightwave...But got fooled once with the PSmove think that needed an actual PS3 an not the Move Only.
Anyways.... Great work on the Genoma Updates script....if Newtek could be as responsive. :)

Again, sorry about what happened. We really had no intention to "fool" anyone, but, again, I can understand how the given "message" could have been confusing.

So, let me say this again in a very clear way: Kinect support it's not available in 11.5 currently. What we've been showing is a very first implementation through Virtual Studio. We're progressing in making the whole process of using Kinect to produce animation really easy and straightforward. We showed just the tip of the iceberg.

TheMightySpud
04-23-2013, 12:26 PM
As Samus said, he nearly went out and bought a Kinect. I actually did. So very very very unhappy as I now have a not very cheap blinking LED sat by my pc. And using another solution isn't an option for me at the moment, so please don't suggest that again.

calilifestyle
04-23-2013, 02:06 PM
As Samus said, he nearly went out and bought a Kinect. I actually did. So very very very unhappy as I now have a not very cheap blinking LED sat by my pc. And using another solution isn't an option for me at the moment, so please don't suggest that again.

It could be worst... you could be stuck with Jimmyrig waiting for face mocap to be implemented.

One thing if you went and bought a Kinect for LW11.5 ... and now you can't use it take it back. Take your Kinect back you have time. At you know now rather then 3 or so 4 months where you can't return it.

TheMightySpud
04-23-2013, 02:56 PM
Well, can't take it back, it's opened etc. only way I could take it back was if it was faulty. Been having a 'conversation' with Newtek support about it, and they say that they're going to try and get Rob Powers to clarify what he said etc. at NAB. they did say though, and this is a direct copy/paste from the email.....

"It's actually no where close to being ready to ship - there are many caveats that need to be ironed out before release."

So, kinda even more annoyed.

Greenlaw
04-23-2013, 05:12 PM
Deleted message.

My apologies to everybody. Decided I wasn't adding anything productive to this conversation anymore.

G.

erikals
04-23-2013, 06:50 PM
i thought it was fine, constructive.

as far as Kinect in LightWave, or any other app,
i think you will find that for quality work iPi Desktop is the way to go though...

other Kinect MoCap technology is more for tests, imo.
at least for now. (talking all kinds of Kinect MoCap apps)

Jonas-A
04-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Hi, possible to use an Asus Xtion Live Pro (using same sensor from PrimeSense as the Kinect)? Can´t find any info if it's supported or not.

littlewaves
04-24-2013, 03:45 AM
Well, can't take it back, it's opened etc. only way I could take it back was if it was faulty. Been having a 'conversation' with Newtek support about it, and they say that they're going to try and get Rob Powers to clarify what he said etc. at NAB. they did say though, and this is a direct copy/paste from the email.....

"It's actually no where close to being ready to ship - there are many caveats that need to be ironed out before release."

So, kinda even more annoyed.

Wow!

Rob's enthusiasm has been fantastic for Lightwave but looks like it's landed him (and you) in it this time.

so we're back to the old Newtek then. I await the traditional "ready by Q4" announcement with a palm full of salt ready to take a hefty pinch.

erikals
04-24-2013, 05:40 AM
doubt it, it's probably gonna be a Siggraph thing
2 months left today...

Greenlaw
04-24-2013, 08:53 AM
Yep I mentioned the Iclone 5 Animation Pipeline but were you able to verify if you can use your own mesh and rigs created from lw then import to iclone? I think I heard this doesn't allow that so you're stuck with their mesh library and rigs. That seems to be the catch for this software.
IPI is not realtime but atleast you can use your own mesh and especially important, character rigs, to import/export with lw. The workflow is tedious and its better in other software with almost two clicks done. In lw you still have to do some vodoo with naming and hierarchy reparenting, etc.
So yeah its a big deal to have native kinect support for lw 11 for me as well.
iClone by itself doesn't export data for other programs but 3DXchange Pipeline software is a supplement created for transferring assets via FBX. It's meant for artists who want to develop content for iClone using third party programs, but Pipeline exports as well as imports, so you also can take data out of iClone for other application. It's important to distinguish Pipeline from the Pro and Standard editions, which do not feature FBX export. At least, that's my understanding of how this works--as mentioned previously, we haven't started testing this for our future 'machinima' project yet.

Here's the comparison chart from Reallusion's website: http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/3dx/3dx_matrix.aspx

I don't find iPi particularly tedious--for the most part, it runs itself. Setup with two Kinects takes me less than five minutes, calibration maybe another five or less, then I start capturing motion. Tracking speed is dependent on the quality of your graphics card--with my aging Geforce GTX 460, it takes about 0.6 seconds per frame, which is still very acceptable, and the result is typically much higher than with other Kinect based systems.

Admittedly, the process has gotten more complicated since we added three PS Moves for simultaneously capturing the rotation of each hand and the head. Considering the final results, I can't complain about doing a little more work for it.

The one test that I might have considered 'tedious' was that crazy '3 happy cats' dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJZabVZqCl0) performance my 6 year old did a year ago (when she was still 5.) This was the trickiest tracking test I've run through iPi yet and it required a lot more supervision than typical, but the software got through it just fine. This test was run back when I was still using version 1.0 by the way.

G.

geo_n
04-24-2013, 09:22 AM
Its tedious when you have access to a better workflow that can do it in two clicks :D. Export bip from IPI, import bip from IPI to 3dmax, done.
Still the preprocess within IPI is slow if you're doing a fair amount of mocap. Its like creating an animatic preview in lw everytime you want to check an animation instead of having to just scrub the timeline to check. Im looking forward to kinect and lw realtime mocap and willing to pay if its a feature for lw 12. No clarity in that feature.
Thanks for the info on Iclone. If it can import lw mesh and rigs to retarget mocap on it then I guess its a good buy than IPI imo for blueshift if he's picking a mocap solution. I will have to look at it because I thought it couldn't import lw mesh and rigs.

blueshift
04-24-2013, 10:07 AM
Greenlaw you're posts to this thread as far as I'm concerned have been extremely helpful and informative. You probably have prevented me from making a rash decision that I might soon regret.
Ditto for Geo_n. Thanks people. I sent an email to Iclone via there website yesterday asking about LW Import and Export but still waiting for a reply. At this point what I just read from Lino Grandi's post is encouraging.
I think I'm going to see if I can find some kind of inexspensive stopgap solution and upgrade to LW 11.5. Still hopeing it will be included in the ver 11 cycle not 12. If Kinect is not available till Ver.12 would that be $495 from
LW10 to LW 11.5 then another $495 from 11.5 to 12 ?

Greenlaw
04-24-2013, 10:18 AM
I will have to look at it because I thought it couldn't import lw mesh and rigs.
I thought just the opposite back when it couldn't. :p

I think this capability was added only a year ago. Prior to Pipeline, you needed to use plug-ins for Max to bring in your own character assets.

BTW, I need to make it clear that we haven't actually tested this system with LightWave yet, so I can't guarantee that it will work with Lightwave. I wish I had the time but we are not planning to use it until after we get 'B2' finished, and possibly not until after we make our next movie. (Sigh! Too many irons in the fire.)

G.

geo_n
04-24-2013, 10:52 AM
I think I'm going to see if I can find some kind of inexspensive stopgap solution and upgrade to LW 11.5. Still hopeing it will be included in the ver 11 cycle not 12. If Kinect is not available till Ver.12 would that be $495 from
LW10 to LW 11.5 then another $495 from 11.5 to 12 ?

990usd total to get lw kinect if ever. But I doubt it would be basic functionality, plus whatever goodies is in lw 12 should be worth the upgrade because kinect support only would be a disappointing lw 12 release.




BTW, I need to make it clear that we haven't actually tested this system with LightWave yet, so I can't guarantee that it will work with Lightwave.
G.

Ah its unproven with lw unlike IPI, though tedious works. :p

Dillon
04-24-2013, 04:21 PM
Please spill more beans on the tip of this iceberg!


again, sorry about what happened. We really had no intention to "fool" anyone, but, again, i can understand how the given "message" could have been confusing.

So, let me say this again in a very clear way: Kinect support it's not available in 11.5 currently. What we've been showing is a very first implementation through virtual studio. We're progressing in making the whole process of using kinect to produce animation really easy and straightforward. We showed just the tip of the iceberg.

blueshift
04-25-2013, 06:40 AM
I took a screengrab of the email response I got from Iclone support.
See image.113896

Samus
04-25-2013, 07:55 AM
Again, sorry about what happened. We really had no intention to "fool" anyone, but, again, I can understand how the given "message" could have been confusing.

So, let me say this again in a very clear way: Kinect support it's not available in 11.5 currently. What we've been showing is a very first implementation through Virtual Studio. We're progressing in making the whole process of using Kinect to produce animation really easy and straightforward. We showed just the tip of the iceberg.

HI Lino Thank's for reply!!

Cool to know it's gonna be awesome once this kinect tool will be implemented... But to make this tool Complete it should support all sort of "Actual" external tools like wiimote and Androïd / iphone-ipod and other Bluetooth
devices.

By the way ... Genoma is cool but can it have Less bones to work with or Bones replaced with nulls cause it's so huge it eat's up your scene editor a great deal.(maybe get Kurth Smith in the loop for more RIGS Arsenal in Genoma :p )

Thanks !

cresshead
04-25-2013, 11:14 AM
I think I'm going to see if I can find some kind of inexspensive stopgap solution and upgrade to LW 11.5. Still hopeing it will be included in the ver 11 cycle not 12. If Kinect is not available till Ver.12 would that be $495 from
LW10 to LW 11.5 then another $495 from 11.5 to 12 ?


$695 (USD) Commercial Upgrade

so if the kinect capability is in Lightwave 12 not 11 and you have to upgrade twice then that's $1390 just so you are aware.
Personally i'll wait until it's in the shipping version whatever that is either 11.5 or 12.

Thomas Leitner
04-25-2013, 12:12 PM
$695 (USD) Commercial Upgrade

so if the kinect capability is in Lightwave 12 not 11 and you have to upgrade twice then that's $1390 just so you are aware.
Personally i'll wait until it's in the shipping version whatever that is either 11.5 or 12.

No, you can upgrade from any version to the latest version for $695 (USD). So if NT doesn´t change this for LW 12 it will be only one upgrade.

ciao
Thomas

Greenlaw
04-25-2013, 12:32 PM
I think he meant going from a version older than LightWave 11. In an earlier post, one user wondered if he could use the Kinect interface with LW 10 once the Kinect plug-ins or whatever are released. If not, then, if that user were to upgrade from 10 to 11, he might have to pay again to upgrade to LW 12 if he chose to--which might not seem like a good deal if LW 12 was released shortly after he made the upgrade. However, realistically speaking, I think LW 12 may still be a loooong ways off.

This is all speculative of course--I have no secret inside information.

In trying to read between Lino's lines, I'm guessing they're planning to release more than just a basic Kinect input plug-in, and are possibly adding retargeting and updating or replacing some editing tools. If that's the case, then getting Kinect connection directly into LightWave will likely require upgrading to 11 or 12. Again, this is pure speculation on my part so please don't hold NewTek (or me,) to it. :)

My prediction is that we're going to hear very little official information about this feature until Siggraph.

G.

Red_Oddity
04-25-2013, 01:47 PM
Does the input have to be real time? If not, you could always write out the skeletal tracking data to file and do some re-targeting to get it into something LW understands.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh973074.aspx

CaptainMarlowe
04-26-2013, 07:36 AM
Understanding that mocap in LW might be long to come is a disappointment for me, as there are not a lot of mobcap/kinect solutions for a hobbyist on a Mac.
I've found this : www.fastmocap.com , but I have a doubt concerning the software : is it a hoax or a fraud ? I've seen many links on the web that do not inspire confidence.
The other problem is that it only allows bvh export, which is not so good to get along with the fbx genoma rig... but it is perhaps possible to get a decent result with animeeple and export from there in fbx ?

geo_n
04-26-2013, 07:47 AM
Animeeple has stopped development. For now the best option out there is IPI even with its quirkyness it just works with lw. Iclone might be good but its untested.

CaptainMarlowe
04-26-2013, 08:12 AM
Yes, I know that animeeple has stopped development. But they release the animeeple with fox import/export before closing down. IPI and IClone are not avilable on mac.

geo_n
04-26-2013, 08:17 AM
Sorry , Iclone and ipi not available for mac? That's an oversight. Even we have linux development even if the users are less :D

blueshift
04-26-2013, 08:42 AM
I think for the time being I'm going to hang in there with LW 10.1 and try the open source Brekel MoCap prog. Like I said previously it would be a stopgap solution not so elegant but I believe it would be workable, while I wait to see what happens with LW Kinect and when. God I hope it happens within the LW 11 cycle. The upgrade price I get on the site here for me from 10 to 11.5 is $495.00. I believe I could capture and save a BVH file with open source Breckel then import that into LightWave yes?

Greenlaw
04-26-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't have any experience with Brekel (except a little with Pro Face), but in general, I've never had much luck with using .bvh directly in Lightwave. It might work if you base your LightWave character rig on the .bvh skeleton and if you don't adjust the proportions of the rig very much. Then, you should be able to apply the .bvh (saved in a LightWave scene) to your LightWave rigged character (in another scene) using the Merge Only Motion Envelopes option in the Load Items From Scene panel.

My typical workflow with iPi Mocap Studio is to export .bvh for Motion Builder (a specific MB compatible option,) retarget to an imported LightWave rig and edit, export FBX for LightWave, and then use MOME to merge the motions to the Lightwave rig inside of LightWave. A key advantage is that retargeting will properly scale the motions to fit the proportions of your character--this prevents or at least minimizes problems like sliding feet and other issues--VERY important. Besides this, the editing and mixing tools in Motion Builder are top-notch.

Alternatively, iPi Mocap Studio can do retargeting internally and export and FBX directly--but you don't have as many options for editing though. The FBX data should be compatible with LightWave using MOME but I haven't tried this lately because we already have an established workflow and we're in the middle of production now. When I have time though, I'll check it out.

Assuming iClone with 3DXchange Pipeline exports a compatible FBX, this software may be a good substitute for Motion Buider, whether you use iPi Mocap Studio, Brekel, or their native Kinect input. That's all additional cost of course, but it's a lot cheaper than buying Motion Builder. But only useful if it actually works of course--when I have time, I'll test this too.

The final 'special edition' Animeeple, if you can find it, had very basic retargeting and FBX export--it was sent to users who paid for the FBX plug-in. Development stopped a long time ago though and the software is no longer supported. IMO, I would look elsewhere.

If you don't want to get iClone with 3DXchange Pipeline (unproven for LW, by me anyway--hopefully soon) or Motion Builder (expensive, unless you get the student version,) my recommendation is to check out ikinema Webanimate (http://www.ikinema.com/). This is an web-based mocap system that features many key features similar to Motion Builder's. You can upload your captured motion data (possibly from Brekel) and your LightWave rig, retarget, edit and mix online, and for a fee, download an FBX to merge to your character in LightWave. In fact, whenever LightWave gets it's own kinect input, if the NewTek devs aren't able to immediately release their own retargeting and editing tools, you can still use iKinema until the native tools are available. FWIW, a few users have reported success using ikinema Webanimate with LightWave.

Also, there exist other web-based alternatives to ikinema Webanimate. I know less about them however. Might be worth searching discussions that compare services.

Just a few thoughts and suggestions. Follow at your own risk though. :)

G.

Greenlaw
04-26-2013, 12:24 PM
Lino, maybe you would know this, is it now possible to import a videostream from a Kinect camera?

this looks like something similar, but i'm not sure if it is...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyS-SyQza0s#t=36m00s

the thing is, it would be awesome to input a realtime video into LightWave to drive displacements...

Kinect records both depth and RGB video simultaneously. I used this capability in any of the Kinect based test videos I have posted in the LGD Test Tube videos (that old 3 Happy Cats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJZabVZqCl0), for example.) Recently, in the case of iPi Mocap Studio, these guys have figured out how to conform the RGB stream to match the point cloud in 3D space exactly. For the moment, the conformed RGB is only being used to project the video colors onto the point cloud to give it accurate scene colors but, in the near future, they intend to use this proprietary method to enhance the tracking quality.

Anyway, if NewTek can get their RGB stream to match the 3D space (I imagine it has to do with correcting for lens distortion and such) then, yes, the data could be used for displacements in LightWave. I don't know what I would do with this data in LightWave but I'm sure someone will figure out a use. :)

G.

cresshead
04-26-2013, 03:25 PM
I think for the time being I'm going to hang in there with LW 10.1 and try the open source Brekel MoCap prog. Like I said previously it would be a stopgap solution not so elegant but I believe it would be workable, while I wait to see what happens with LW Kinect and when. God I hope it happens within the LW 11 cycle. The upgrade price I get on the site here for me from 10 to 11.5 is $495.00. I believe I could capture and save a BVH file with open source Breckel then import that into LightWave yes?


where are you seeing this upgrade price of $495
on newtek pages it's listed as $695

https://www.lightwave3d.com/buy/

ah okay i see where you get it from now...charter member

blueshift
04-27-2013, 01:24 AM
When I log in and go to my account and click on the upgrade button $495.00 is the price that is listed. perhaps that's because I signed up for HardCore?

CaptainMarlowe
04-27-2013, 01:39 AM
Yes it is.

Spinland
04-28-2013, 11:10 AM
One question that still remains for me (besides all the ones that obviously won't be answered for a while) is which version of the Kinect cameras does this use: XBox or Windows? The former are about half as expensive, but I'm guessing that means they might lack needed internals to work plugged into a Mac or PC.

Any ideas?

Greenlaw
04-28-2013, 11:33 AM
I'm assuming NewTek is using Kinect for Windows in their demo. Technically, there is very little difference between Kinect for XBox and Kinect for Windows, but Microsoft only officially supports Kinect for Windows for use with a PC. I believe the current Microsoft Kinect SDK drivers still support Kinect for XBox (unofficially) but they may drop this in the future. There are third party openSource drivers that can support the XBox Kinect--it will be up to NewTek whether they support non-Microsoft drivers or not.

The main differences between the two are: K4X is cheaper, Warranty and support is different for each (K4X not officially supported for PC,) K4W has significantly better RGB video controls, K4W has 'near mode'--this feature is not used for body capture but can come in handy for 3D scanning of objects.

Some programs can only use K4W, but most programs out there seem compatible with either--check the software requirements to be sure. iPi Mocap Studio 2.0, for example, will work with either type of Kinects, plus Asus and Carmime devices. In fact, you can mix any combination of these devices. (I recommend using matched devices though.)

Speaking of Carmine, this is a new device that is technically even better than either Kinect model and it's much more compact. Carmine comes in two versions: 1.08 for full body, and 1.09 for closeup. According to iPi Soft, the quality of the depth data is cleaner with Carmine than with Kinect so you can get smoother, more accurate motions. Carmine does not have the remote controlled pitch control motor, which may or may not be important to you. FWIW, I use the pitch motor to help me align two Kinects from another room (iPi has built-in controls for this feature.)

G.

Spinland
04-28-2013, 11:48 AM
As always, Greenlaw, most excellent information. many thanks!

Philbert
04-28-2013, 01:02 PM
I've had no problem using xbox Kinect with my PC in any of the experiments I've tried, including mocap and 3D scanning. It was a pretty good deal too. I picked it up used at Gamestop for $40, it was in mint condition as if it had barely been opened. Even came with a sealed game that is still sealed because I don't own an xbox. Funny that I've probably gotten more use out of it than the original owner who did have an xbox.

calilifestyle
04-29-2013, 02:26 PM
Look over that IPI MOCAP it looks sweet. I'm going to try out that demo and see how user friendly it is.

erikals
04-29-2013, 03:37 PM
Anyway, if NewTek can get their RGB stream to match the 3D space (I imagine it has to do with correcting for lens distortion and such) then, yes, the data could be used for displacements in LightWave. I don't know what I would do with this data in LightWave but I'm sure someone will figure out a use. :).

well, one could then for example make small led-lights, that could drive 100 functions in LW realtime.
pretty much like Midi :hey:

Samus
02-07-2014, 05:53 AM
Hey Guys!

Has anyone tryed Nevron with Kinect 2.0 ???

Sam

Ryan Roye
02-07-2014, 06:49 AM
We may have to wait for kinect2 support in an updated version of Nevron.

That, or if the HID's work as expected one could go through the process of adapting all of the values that the kinect2 generates and make a template mocap rig for others to use. Either way, its a bit pricey to test it out at the moment otherwise I'd buy it and abuse it :)

Greenlaw
02-07-2014, 08:52 AM
You'll need Kinect 2.0 for Windows to do this and it's not available to consumers yet. It has to do with the connectors--by design the current XBox One version of the Kinect 2.0 uses a non-standard connector and it will not work with a PC.

Kinect 2.0 for Windows isn't available yet, unless you're a developer lucky enough to get the dev kit.

The consumer version of Kinect 2.0 for Windows is scheduled to come out later this year, mostly likely in the summer time. Assuming LW3DG has one of the dev kits now, I imagine Kinect 2.0 for Win support in Nevron Motion should follow shortly after the release.

G.

Ssgt_Grein
02-14-2014, 02:52 PM
Hey guys!

I just bought the Microsoft Kinect for Windwos to play
around with the virtual studio. The problem is, that it
doesn't show up in the virtual studio panel. I installed
the Kinects SDK and the developer toolkit, but nothing
happens. Has anyone done this and can offer some help?

Thanks.
Roger

50one
02-14-2014, 03:30 PM
Hey guys!

I just bought the Microsoft Kinect for Windwos to play
around with the virtual studio. The problem is, that it
doesn't show up in the virtual studio panel. I installed
the Kinects SDK and the developer toolkit, but nothing
happens. Has anyone done this and can offer some help?

Thanks.
Roger


Virtual studio tools don't support Kinect.

shrox
02-14-2014, 04:56 PM
I was at a friends house who has a Kinect. Damn thing creeps me out, the Kinect does too.

erikals
02-14-2014, 05:31 PM
the house? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

jwiede
02-14-2014, 09:13 PM
the house? http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

I think he meant the friend. :devil:

shrox
02-14-2014, 11:14 PM
I think he meant the friend. :devil:

Sometimes gamers get a little too "enthusiastic".

erikals
02-15-2014, 02:45 AM
Sometimes gamers get a little too "enthusiastic".

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/aiwebs_017.gif

50one
02-15-2014, 07:16 AM
Sometimes gamers get a little too "enthusiastic".


You wanna...talk about this?:D

Greenlaw
02-15-2014, 12:04 PM
I just bought the Microsoft Kinect for Windwos to play around with the virtual studio.

As 50one pointed out, it doesn't work with Virtual Studio, at least not without some custom coding skills I think.

To use Kinect directly with LightWave 'out of the box', you'll need to add the Nevron Motion plug-in (plus you must run LightWave under Windows.)

G.

Ssgt_Grein
02-15-2014, 12:09 PM
Ah. Thanks Greenlaw. That was the missing point.
It will have to wait then.