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prometheus
04-06-2013, 09:06 AM
how would you aproach building the engineer spacecraft From the prometheus movie?

http://www.maxon.net/uploads/pics/web_p53_02.jpg
http://www.maxon.net/uploads/pics/web_p46_02.jpg

These images are from the concept stage, and thus a little flat on the surface.
I wonder if it finally was a mixture of surface bump/normals with hard geometry detail..or maybe completly
full geometry.

The ship is so full of detail, and ivé been curious to get some insight on how they actually worked that out, or
how some of you skilled modelers here would approach it, I have unfortunatly to little experience of modeling to get
a good idea of ways of doint this.

I canīt get any good feedback either on behind the scenes vfx, I think steven messing was in for the design and maybe
also modeling, might have been that they used some form of displacement derived from uv maps, and maybe then converted to
hard geometry, at least that seem to have been a process designing the chamber with pilot chamber.


Article from the design process...
http://www.maxon.net/en/news/singleview-default/article/prometheus-vfx-art-director-steven-messing-leverages-cinema-4d-to-create-cg-designs.html




suggestions have been made to use plines etc..then I wonder if it would be best to work on subpatch or leave it at hard surface, thus
leaving better options for adding detail and maybe stenciling?

jeric_synergy
04-06-2013, 10:34 AM
there was SOMEONE who had a procedure, in LW iirc, to generate the textures for an Engineer-style ship.

Maybe Google this forum, -- it was rather involved as I recall.
++

EDIT: oh, NOT the Engineer ship. Still, interesting: :o :o :o
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?273033-Sculpting-with-UVs-and-displacements

geo_n
04-06-2013, 10:45 AM
You can use greebles and generate a displacement map from it then map it to a subd mesh.

prometheus
04-06-2013, 11:10 AM
there was SOMEONE who had a procedure, in LW iirc, to generate the textures for an Engineer-style ship.

Maybe Google this forum, -- it was rather involved as I recall.
++

EDIT: oh, NOT the Engineer ship. Still, interesting: :o :o :o
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?273033-Sculpting-with-UVs-and-displacements

That is interesting..thanks, if you can find the info about the one who had a procedure in LW, It would be great if you find that.


You can use greebles and generate a displacement map from it then map it to a subd mesh.
Aha...generate displacements from greebles..how would you go about that?

geo_n
04-06-2013, 11:32 AM
That is interesting..thanks, if you can find the info about the one who had a procedure in LW, It would be great if you find that.


Aha...generate displacements from greebles..how would you go about that?

That was a long time ago I learned this technique from my collegue where he uses vray micropoly displacement to good effect. I think I used surface baking camera or xnormals to create displacement map from a highpoly greebled plate to a low poly plate. You can use quadpanels to create the highpoly version.
Use the disp map on a subd mesh atleast 10 render subd level. You can use different disp maps for different sections of the model if you a non-uniform look.

shrox
04-06-2013, 11:50 AM
You just do it. Then you are done.

Afalk
04-06-2013, 11:58 AM
You might find this DWBurman tutorial rather timely :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OW2PTkSVNM

SteveH
04-06-2013, 12:00 PM
I think this guy was incolved using ZBrush. Even if it turns out he wasn't - still amazingly cool stuff he does....
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?80531-Landscapes-L51/page20

lwanmtr
04-06-2013, 03:06 PM
The organic ship look is a little out of my style, but for me I would keep it a subd object. You can continue to add details, stencil, etc.

Davewriter
04-06-2013, 09:06 PM
Those photos look so much better than what the actual model (at least the one from Alien) looked like.
Mostly plaster with bits of wire stuck around in places and a couple of coats of paint on it.
Big and heavy. Glad I only had to help move it a couple of times.

prometheus
04-07-2013, 06:45 PM
Thank you all guys contributing with some links here..I think I will look in to the link posted by jeric_synergy mostly, since that seems to be a little of how the process was done for the actual engineer ship in the movie, (speculating with myself)
I havenīt heard of that zbrush was involved as a tool, maybe it was or not, and I would of course think that adding such things would be a good way to good, based on the info on articles it only
reveals a little that cinema4d was used together with uv displacement techniques.

Gonna go through the baking techniques too, have to read up on all that stuff, maybe check quixel ndo, and quadpanel too.

thanks for the links guys.

- - - Updated - - -


Those photos look so much better than what the actual model (at least the one from Alien) looked like.
Mostly plaster with bits of wire stuck around in places and a couple of coats of paint on it.
Big and heavy. Glad I only had to help move it a couple of times.

duhh...what?..you were on the first alien set..touching the real life models?

Michael

shrox
04-07-2013, 06:58 PM
Does it have to look just like it? The Dante was inspired by the Prometheus, but not meant to be a replica.

prometheus
04-08-2013, 05:50 AM
Does it have to look just like it? The Dante was inspired by the Prometheus, but not meant to be a replica.

I was just curious of the techniques used to create the engineer ship, and or how we could approach modeling techniques or adapt something similar in workflow to produce
a similar surface structure.

The wonderful Dante vessel you made ...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134210-A-Prometheus-like-ship
was probably created with model techniques the "old" way just as they might have done when modeling the Prometheus ship, but I donīt think even you would try out model
the type of organic flow and surface detail by such means..or?

Unless just using normal or bump maps on the finer detail, but that is not how the process seem to have been done though, rather baked in high detail from uv displacements.

Not sure that I would even embarge on starting such a modeling project..even after I get the picture clear on how to aproach it.
so if anyone can showcase the same level of detail and similar in style..that would be nice to see how it is approached, but of course it doesnīt have to look
exactly like it, even though I dont think the general main shape is that difficult to model, just the surface detail..and also how it flows.


Michael

prometheus
04-08-2013, 06:20 AM
I think it is interesting to disect the process in to two parts, building the main body shape and then surface detail.

maybe use splines and patching to draw the main shape, perhaps cm_lofting, easy shape building by using a toroid and cutting it in halfe leaving a horseshoe shape to start working on
by tweaking it accordingly to the blue print backdrop, maybe use a capsule and bending it and then do the same tweakings.

Seem to be a lot of options to start roughing out the main shape, and with zbrush and goz you might even just draw with zsphereīs etc..but would be most interesting to see
a lightwave only based model.

The question for the base model might be how that should support the surface detail flow, maybe that is of a lesser matter on how it flows originally if the model in the end needs
to be so heavy in subdivisions to support any eventual displacement maps or normal map.

DerRaucher
04-08-2013, 06:51 AM
hm i think there is a Video tut how to make it in Blender
http://blendtuts.com/displacement_uvs_sculpt
maybe you can use same tech in LW

fazi69
04-08-2013, 07:00 AM
I will use a banana model. Maybe two connected at one end.

Skorp
04-08-2013, 07:13 AM
hm i think there is a Video tut how to make it in Blender
http://blendtuts.com/displacement_uvs_sculpt
maybe you can use same tech in LW
We had the same idea. ;-)
The following link is a really good educational tutorial for blender that I tested with Lightwave. The process is exactly the same.
very easy With lightwave except for UVs on my side. But I am a beginner in 3D and Lightwave
A good method for displacement maps is to follow the DWBurman tutorial, as Afalk said.
After that, it's really easy to create the juggernaut from the Prometheus movie with LW.

jeric_synergy
04-08-2013, 09:39 AM
?? It looks like everyone is referencing the human ship (textures), not the Engineer ship.

I was unable to locate the tutorial for the Engineer textures. :(

shrox
04-08-2013, 11:51 AM
I have modeled something like that before, in old 3D Studio even! If the part was going to be curved and tapered, I modeled a basic bumpy cylinder like shape with many polys, then modeled the tubing and ribbing that ran along it with one end larger than the other, then tapered and curved it all as a whole. Looked great for 1995...but the technique is still applicable.

ary3d
04-08-2013, 10:50 PM
interesting topic, I read the blender post and I did the same in lightwave.


no to much detail on this one, to lazy :D

113435 I made a gradient to "create" a displacement map (I don't know other technique to bake displacement in LW)

113436

113437 added some procedural textures for more detail

greetings, David

prometheus
04-09-2013, 09:59 AM
interesting topic, I read the blender post and I did the same in lightwave.


no to much detail on this one, to lazy :D

113435 I made a gradient to "create" a displacement map (I don't know other technique to bake displacement in LW)

113436

113437 added some procedural textures for more detail

greetings, David


very nice..for a doughnut:) :thumbsup:
I have to read up on that as well, didnīt have time to check the tutorial fully.
I think you only need to work out the main body shape instead of the doughnut, and create more flowing lines pipes instead to bake out.

I did a horrible quick mockup ..just to throw something alien in and compare scale of shrox lovely dante vessel.I think the scale of the engineer vessel might be something around 300meters in diameter.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134210-A-Prometheus-like-ship&p=1314947#post1314947


All to monochrome and to thick and roundy and no surface displacement, just a poor normal map I found somewhere and poor uv mapping..so hey take it easy on the critics for that one:)
I will probably go back and do it right after reading up on this, I would have to make the shape a little thinner and sharper and change main body too, and then try some
baked displacements.


Michael

JoePoe
04-09-2013, 12:50 PM
As far as the basic shape goes......

I started with the dome. Made that the "top" of a tube and married it to half a toroid. Then tapered the open ends of the toroid into the points of the arms.
Mutishifted all the fun stuff. 648 polys (all quad).

I think the basic flow is there (??) to start getting freaky with some of the finer modeling like the windows in the dome, some of the more pronounced bump outs (if any) and a lot of general tightening.
The rest...... displace, normal, and bump with a killer UV. :thumbsup:

shrox
04-09-2013, 01:48 PM
I did similar, but with polys for a basic shape, I'd redo the whole thing, this is just a "charcoal sketch". Not trying to duplicate the ship either.

113450

JoePoe
04-09-2013, 05:04 PM
Didn't change a thing on the model. Just slapped on a couple of 2 minute planer maps in color/spec/bump/norm... just for a quick peek ;).

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s395/joepoe1/engeneerwip1_zps640cd829.jpg

geo_n
04-09-2013, 11:17 PM
interesting topic, I read the blender post and I did the same in lightwave.


no to much detail on this one, to lazy :D

113435 I made a gradient to "create" a displacement map (I don't know other technique to bake displacement in LW)

113436

113437 added some procedural textures for more detail

greetings, David

Thats a different technique. Thanks for sharing.

ary3d
04-10-2013, 12:15 AM
Didn't change a thing on the model. Just slapped on a couple of 2 minute planer maps in color/spec/bump/norm... just for a quick peek ;).

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s395/joepoe1/engeneerwip1_zps640cd829.jpg

Looking nice :thumbsup:

prometheus
04-10-2013, 07:42 AM
As far as the basic shape goes......

I started with the dome. Made that the "top" of a tube and married it to half a toroid. Then tapered the open ends of the toroid into the points of the arms.
Mutishifted all the fun stuff. 648 polys (all quad).

I think the basic flow is there (??) to start getting freaky with some of the finer modeling like the windows in the dome, some of the more pronounced bump outs (if any) and a lot of general tightening.
The rest...... displace, normal, and bump with a killer UV. :thumbsup:

That is indeed very good...and still clean simple, but you got the general shape very nicely here, just slapped on a planar mapping hey:) a little bit of stretching in the mid section, but you
as everyone else is just mocking I guess:) ..up.

very nice..and can only get better if you try baking in displacements...of some structures, would increase poly count of course ..but might give that extra true poly level detail look.

Michael

prometheus
04-10-2013, 08:41 AM
Some reference...


engineer ship concept, top and scale info...
http://vyle-art.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sets12.jpg

engineer ship back..about to rise...
http://media.theiapolis.com/d4/hMO/i1NMD/k4/l1O0F/w1HC/prometheus.jpg

exploding engineer ship...
http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Prometheus_02.jpg

crashed ship from above view...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xPCB40ZHllc/T9TrCv3FijI/AAAAAAAAFRI/xrQGPXuQTiY/s1600/Space+Jockey+Ship+Prometheus.jpg

hereīs..another concept guy who worked on prometheus with some great stuff, not just the ship...
David Levy
http://vyle-art.com/portfolio/prometheus/

Old engineer ship from the alien movie...
http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2274/11208607/23280413/388285995.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/Callamon/Derelictside.jpg
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z350/teamzissou82/Alien/derelict12.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6YW5GxSpM9s/UFTTI1nU0uI/AAAAAAAADm0/f_-8IJO5tTs/s1600/derelictgigersalien.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/Callamon/Derelictmovieview.jpg

Interesting to analyze the two versions, the old vs the new..I think the final design in the old stuff as much
as many other items were comprimized due to what was possible and the tools,money and whatever time they had.

Though I generally just canīt complain about the old look which was something we never had seen before and thus
leaving a different kind of impact on me.

this time around Ridley Scott appearently wanted more of a modern high tech look, and fair enough..try something new and
such alien high tech civilization should manifest that a little more in the designs perhaps.

I think I still like the older generall feel and mood ...but it might be of the whole general concept of blue misty cold
disturbing shapes, not resembling earth tech, the new designs are more technical, more earth construction style sort of..I think.

Both are awesome anyway.

Michael

daforum
04-10-2013, 10:03 AM
I saw this sometime ago: HERE (http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?273033-Sculpting-with-UVs-and-displacements)
scroll down the page...

( i know it's another 3D app) but there might be some info here on techniques that could help modeling and texturing in LW.

Hope it helps :)

daforum
04-11-2013, 03:48 AM
I think my link is the same one that Jeric posted earlier on in this thread, d'oh!

:bangwall: :twak:

JoePoe
04-11-2013, 04:43 PM
Fun technique. A couple of tests, displace and normal.
I guess you're only limited by........ well, nothing. As long as you're willing to render out heavy subD levels. :thumbsup:

prometheus
04-11-2013, 06:36 PM
Fun technique. A couple of tests, displace and normal.
I guess you're only limited by........ well, nothing. As long as you're willing to render out heavy subD levels. :thumbsup:

yeah...might be so, One thing that might be an issue is jagged artifacts in very small detail at certain places, where it might be necessary with micropolydisplacement, not sure if that
played a certain part in why turning in to cinema4dfor dealing with such things, amongst others...upon working with both the engineer ship, and rock displacements for the environment.

and I wonder how this technique in lightwave can be enhanced with dpontīs micropolydisplacement?

Michael

JoePoe
04-11-2013, 06:50 PM
Right, DP's micro-displacement! Been meaning to try that. Guess that's the next experiment. )

By the way, is this a mental experiment, or a practical one? Are you building this ship, or just wondering how it could possibly be done (∞ ways)?

In either case I guess, how close do you want/need to get to the ship. Maybe different solutions for different shots. Can't imagine that a gradient on render subD level (Distance to camera) can handle it all. Or maybe it can.

prometheus
04-12-2013, 12:16 PM
Right, DP's micro-displacement! Been meaning to try that. Guess that's the next experiment. )

By the way, is this a mental experiment, or a practical one? Are you building this ship, or just wondering how it could possibly be done (∞ ways)?

In either case I guess, how close do you want/need to get to the ship. Maybe different solutions for different shots. Can't imagine that a gradient on render subD level (Distance to camera) can handle it all. Or maybe it can.

on my part Im not sure I will make a project of it, I was more curious to see how it could be built, and also how it actually was done for the original model in Prometheus.
Depending on time and interest, I might follow it up, mostly following baked displacement since that seems a good way to go, but I think I would redesign some parts like the end of the horseshoe vessel to
have a kind o bone, finger engine at the end..sort of.

It was mainly the surface detailing I was curious on how they did it, maybe they actually used same techniques as described here, or something else...still not clear.
Then Im curios if anyone could pull off such true geometry hull without the aid of baking displacements that requires high subdivs, that would take some serious time spending with the modeling.

Michael

prometheus
04-12-2013, 12:19 PM
Right, DP's micro-displacement! Been meaning to try that. Guess that's the next experiment. )

By the way, is this a mental experiment, or a practical one? Are you building this ship, or just wondering how it could possibly be done (∞ ways)?

In either case I guess, how close do you want/need to get to the ship. Maybe different solutions for different shots. Can't imagine that a gradient on render subD level (Distance to camera) can handle it all. Or maybe it can.

on my part Im not sure I will make a project of it, I was more curious to see how it could be built, and also how it actually was done for the original model in Prometheus.
Depending on time and interest, I might follow it up, mostly following baked displacement since that seems a good way to go, but I think I would redesign some parts like the end of the horseshoe vessel to
have a kind o bone, finger engine at the end..sort of.

It was mainly the surface detailing I was curious on how they did it, maybe they actually used same techniques as described here, or something else...still not clear.
Then Im curios if anyone could pull off such true geometry hull without the aid of baking displacements that requires high subdivs, that would take some serious time spending with the modeling.

Edit...of course, if anyone has done a decent engineer ship or similar and would like to share, we could gather those links together with shrox nice Dante vessel, and I might try and put them within scene context...so we end up with a full scene set.

Michael

shrox
04-12-2013, 12:41 PM
...Edit...of course, if anyone has done a decent engineer ship or similar and would like to share, we could gather those links together with shrox nice Dante vessel, and I might try and put them within scene context...so we end up with a full scene set.

Michael

You're crazy and fun.

I'll post a scene with the lights for the navigation and on board lighting for the Dante.

prometheus
04-13-2013, 09:06 AM
You're crazy and fun.

I'll post a scene with the lights for the navigation and on board lighting for the Dante.

I agree on the first part:)

not sure if I would dare a destruction scene though, would like to try something out with either particles and/or turbulenceFD (demo) donīt think I will jump on the group purchase due to a couple of
issues I had with it, and the working situation right now.
Besides, the vessels would need to be destroyed carefully on specific directed pieces, not sure I have the time to embark on such project, but would be fun.

otherwise just setting up a scene with environment,rocks clouds etc..is what I most of all would like to complete.

Hey...did you see this? Awesome...another vessel Rendered in lightwave, but not sure if he modeled it with lightwave? by digitawn...this was more true to the prometheus vessel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU1EJvXfGhU

shrox
04-13-2013, 09:45 AM
...Hey...did you see this? Awesome...another vessel Rendered in lightwave, but not sure if he modeled it with lightwave? by digitawn...this was more true to the prometheus vessel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU1EJvXfGhU

Moving at around is easy! It's the FX that are more involved.

prometheus
04-13-2013, 12:25 PM
Moving at around is easy! It's the FX that are more involved.

Damn..I never get any email notifications on just this perticular thread,hmm..I changed some settings the subscriptions and we will see.

Yeah, moving around is one thing, but that also takes some good angle point of view,camera direction etc.

The tough part would be comping in with good background footage, not sure how they approached that..simple skyreplacement with some HD real footage of clouds and thunder&lightning
that is going on, and at the same time mixing or blending that with the hard sunlight types needed to cast the rayraced shadows hitting both the ship,ground and the actual 3d generated rock shapes.
Dont think they throwed in a volumetric system and artificially created that sky environment.

the results in the movie are delicate anyway, doesnīt really feel like comping with the sky atmospherics, so that is good, however, I think the comping of the ship in to the environment
doesnīt look quite right at some shots, so the lighting or depth or something isnīt as good as it could have been.

If you were to throw in such vessel model in a true volumetric atmosphere like vue, you would have much more realism in lighting of the whole thing, but then again..extremly large rendertime, and
not practical all the way through regarding rendertime, post control..dynamics etc.

Thatīs for the environmental stuff, if you would like to do crashing effects, it would be a matter of planning exact impact point and only destruction at that level, depending on shot angle
only use dedicated parts covering that area, then put on some bullet and see how well it could handle such destruction, baking to mdd..add some particle trail, throw in turbulenceFD...and here
it would be interesting to see how long it will take to simulate at that scale and how long to render etc.

Personally I donīt think the general fluid_dynamics will be that hard, more a question on how bullet and turbulence would handle the scale and speed of it all.

Michael

shrox
04-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Damn..I never get any email notifications on just this perticular thread,hmm..I changed some settings the subscriptions and we will see.

Yeah, moving around is one thing, but that also takes some good angle point of view,camera direction etc.

Cinematography is my favorite thing to do.

prometheus
04-14-2013, 08:17 PM
This model I linked to earlier will probably be free for download later when he is finished...and that would be sweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU1EJvXfGhU

Gonna be Interesting to see the use of instances in the model.

Michael

dee
04-15-2013, 06:31 AM
Right, DP's micro-displacement! Been meaning to try that. Guess that's the next experiment. )

Well, I did such a test some time ago, and here's the result:

Polys with displacement (1,4 mil. at rendertime), render time 72 sec. (GI Time 32 sec.)
113596

DP Micro Displacement, render time 60 min. (GI Time 38 min.)
113594

DP Micro Displacement, no volumetric radiosity , render time 14 min. (GI Time 32 sec. min.)
113595

djwaterman
04-15-2013, 10:51 AM
Try out the dome light image projection to fake the GI. New in LW 11.5.

jeric_synergy
04-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Try out the dome light image projection to fake the GI. New in LW 11.5.
Oh gahd, another thing to learn..... #weeping

prometheus
04-15-2013, 11:48 AM
Try out the dome light image projection to fake the GI. New in LW 11.5.

Havent tested the dome light image map yet, just curious what the differences are compared to just using the domelight, I think dome light natively gives a nice fake occlusion.
speed and render result difference?

Michael

lwanmtr
04-15-2013, 02:04 PM
Well, I did such a test some time ago, and here's the result:

Polys with displacement (1,4 mil. at rendertime), render time 72 sec. (GI Time 32 sec.)
113596

DP Micro Displacement, render time 60 min. (GI Time 38 min.)
113594

DP Micro Displacement, no volumetric radiosity , render time 14 min. (GI Time 32 sec. min.)
113595


Looks as though that DP Micro displacement wouldnt be very useful with render times like that.

jeric_synergy
04-15-2013, 02:33 PM
Better to have it than not. For stills, that's no big deal.

prometheus
04-15-2013, 08:52 PM
Looks as though that DP Micro displacement wouldnt be very useful with render times like that.

I wonder how fast it would be if you turn of volumetric aliasing, difference in render quality and render speed, if any?

Michael