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View Full Version : Jagged Lips (Again)



Tom Wood
11-07-2003, 10:08 AM
Well, I thought I had this problem solved, but no dice. I've tried every camera setting combination I can think of, every anti-aliasing setting up to high, and I still get ragged edges on the lips when the character talks. I've tried blur, fields, no fields, soft focus and can't get a nice edge when moving. The lips shape is probably hitting video at its weakest, but I'm wondering if there is a way to fix it.

Thanx

geoff3dnz
11-07-2003, 02:13 PM
Have you got Adaptive Sampling on in the Camera properties panel? If so, turn it off and see if that makes a difference...

LW_Will
11-07-2003, 04:07 PM
Sub-D's?

Will

Tom Wood
11-07-2003, 05:47 PM
Yup, adaptive sampling has been off for a while, no help.

Sub - D's? As in more polygons? The lips are a toroid with enough segments and sides to be smooth. I think the problem lies outside of LW, but I don't know for sure.

TW

riki
11-07-2003, 07:00 PM
Yeah cute!. But for some reason the lips remind me of a blow up doll.

toby
11-07-2003, 08:52 PM
the whole head looks jagged - are you distorting the image? changing the apsect ratio (after rendering)?

the resolution looks kinda low, what size are you rendering to?

Are there any image maps being used here? If so how big are they?

Tom Wood
11-07-2003, 09:11 PM
That's just a screen capture from Mirage preview, the rest of the image is fine on an NTSC monitor.

Edit: Sorry, had to drop off. Procedural textures only, rendered out as TGA images in 720X486 D1. The lips are animated with Magpie, and the movement is faithful to the audio. I could probably slow them down, I hate to do that if I can fix the images I'm getting.

TW

toby
11-07-2003, 10:32 PM
This is really wierd. What if you load the model by itself and render, does it look ok?

Tom Wood
11-08-2003, 05:39 AM
As long as the lips aren't moving it looks great. There is a slight bobbling motion to the head to make it look alive, and that motion is properly rendered and anti-aliased. The hairline across the forehead for example is a smooth crisp line.

I think the problem is that the lips move too fast for the video scan rate to keep up. This frame is the one just before the lips open, so I'm getting it during acceleration of the lips. But I'm disappointed that anti-aliasing isn't helping it as much as I'd like, so I was wondering if there are other post processes. Now I see why the mouths in the Jimmy Neutron TV show move so slowly.

I might try changing the opacity of the polys along the edge to blur it into the background. As a last resort I'll have to make Magpie be less responsive to the audio, but the lipsync effect suffers.

Thanks,

TW

LFGabel
11-10-2003, 11:51 AM
Are you rendering to interlaced frames?

With your lip sync, do you have keys that are adjacent (two keys back to back?)

Tom Wood
11-10-2003, 06:21 PM
Hi Lee,

I've discovered that I needed to go higher on the anti-aliasing scale. And I've switched back to interlaced fields, odd first.

The picture at the very bottom is rendered at extreme, with a blur of 300%. When moving, the edges of the lips are acceptable. Average time per frame to render is 14 seconds on a dual 2.4 Xeon, hyperthreaded (four processors working) using Screamernet.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'back to back' keyframes. The graph below is from Magpie, and shows a typical 'busy' segment of the curve. The spikes are pretty steep, if that's what you mean. Back to back, as in one frame to the next?

Thanx,

TW

Oracle77
11-10-2003, 06:37 PM
it looks like your lip video codec is bluring. This happens lots with Divx and fast movements. You can simply render uncompressed, use Adobe premiere to overlay the two uncompressed videos, and then add a codec. The biggest problem I see here is you have two videos being rendered out. If you can find a better way to join them, possibly just use the same codec, youll get the same results. Hope this helps!

LFGabel
11-10-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Tom Wood
I've discovered that I needed to go higher on the anti-aliasing scale. And I've switched back to interlaced fields, odd first.

Any reason you are rendering interlaced frames? You don't really need to. In fact, I often render at 24 fps, then telecine it to 30fps.


Originally posted by Tom Wood
I'm not sure what you mean by 'back to back' keyframes. The graph below is from Magpie, and shows a typical 'busy' segment of the curve. The spikes are pretty steep, if that's what you mean. Back to back, as in one frame to the next?


Yeah, that's what I meant, like a key frame on frame 14 and 15. Fractinal keyframes might also do this... I try to have at least 2 frames between lipsync keys.

Tom Wood
11-11-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by lfgabel
Any reason you are rendering interlaced frames? You don't really need to. In fact, I often render at 24 fps, then telecine it to 30fps.

Well, mostly because I've read that it's better. As it was described to me, LW makes two passes at the motion per image, and thus does a better job of refining the movement between frames. Telecine - Are you talking about a pull-down? Does that improve your video motion?

Thanks!

TW

Lightbase
11-11-2003, 07:26 AM
I'm not sure but try to set Subdivision Order to Last

LFGabel
11-11-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Tom Wood
Well, mostly because I've read that it's better. As it was described to me, LW makes two passes at the motion per image, and thus does a better job of refining the movement between frames. Telecine - Are you talking about a pull-down? Does that improve your video motion?

I guess it depends on the kind of look you want. If you are wanting a clean, "video-y" look to your animation, keep doing it interlaced. I prefer rendering at 24fps progressive and applying telecine because you have 20% less frames to render, it has more of a "film" look and the image quality looks just fine anyway. They've been doing it on TV for years.

As far as improving video motion, I usually use at least enhanced medium antialiasing with dithered motionblur.

And yes, I'm talking about pulldown.

Why not do a couple of tests for 24p and see which you like better?

toby
11-11-2003, 11:02 AM
can you guys explain telecine? I'd like to be able to render at 24fps instead of 30 -

thanks

LFGabel
11-11-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by toby
can you guys explain telecine? I'd like to be able to render at 24fps instead of 30

Try this:
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html

You need software that will do it for you, like AE, DF... does Mirage do it too?

Tom Wood
11-11-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by lfgabel
You need software that will do it for you, like AE, DF... does Mirage do it too?

Oh no, not more software to learn!:D

Just got my box version of Mirage about an hour ago. According to the manual, it will do pull-down, so I'll try it. But it seems counter-intuitive that rendering -fewer- images from the start would help the problem I'm facing.

Anyway, just tried the same sequence on Enhanced Extreme AA and it does a nice job. Ca-chug...ca-chug...ca-chug... Once I'm in production, I'd say that an account with ResPower is in my future.;)

TW

SamuraiSlayer
11-11-2003, 07:07 PM
i kinda skipped some of the replies, sorry...

are the lips subpatched or do you just have smoothing on for the texture?

Tom Wood
11-11-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by SamuraiSlayer
i kinda skipped some of the replies, sorry...

are the lips subpatched or do you just have smoothing on for the texture?

Hi Samurai,

Thank you for your response, no prob about skipping over. At present nothing is subpatched in Layout, it's all frozen mesh from Modeler, which I understand is faster to render since it cuts out the subpatch calculations.

I'm just doing simple Heading/Pitch/Bank (HPB) movements of everything except the endomorphs of the lips. The lips are a toroid that has had each ring moved to a different location to create the endomorph shapes. I experimented with various settings in the numeric window until I came up with the minimum number of segments and sides that would give a smooth shape for all endomorphs.

The rest of the image renders great, it's just the top and bottom edge of the lips when moving that are a challenge. How would subpatches help that?

TW

SamuraiSlayer
11-11-2003, 07:53 PM
subpatch smooths everything down, DRASTICALLY. You could take a 20 polygon model, reduce it to 10, and use subpatching to make it look even better than when it was at 20. If you have a subpatched model you can look at the stats for it, the polygon count actually shows up higher because subpatching kinda creates invisible polygons. Those choppy edges would be smoothed down so good that... just try it