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View Full Version : LW vs. modo vs. Core :)



Snosrap
03-29-2013, 08:33 PM
I been cleaning up my hardrive over the last few days and I ran across this demo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRlI83vvw5M&feature=youtu.be - I made many moons ago when Core was still in development. It demonstrates the general performance of LW10, modo501 and Core in simple rotating of geometry. Lewis provided the model. I no longer have the model that Lewis provided, but I'm the performance is no better in 11.5. :)

probiner
03-30-2013, 06:02 AM
Another proof they went to the moon already, cool. Let's hope for a second journey there :)

OFF
03-30-2013, 06:43 AM
Only can say - wow!.. CORE!

Lewis
03-30-2013, 06:46 AM
I have it and yeah CORE still smokes them all with that manipulation at ITEM mode, Evne MAX can't touch it at such FPS :).

Waves of light
03-30-2013, 06:51 AM
If that doesn't show just how clunky Modeler is, I don't know what else does. Would be nice if Lewis could drop you the model to compare in LW11.5

Will we see tumbling speeds and Modeler performance as the main focus of improvement in LW12?

stevecullum
03-30-2013, 07:01 AM
Only can say - wow!.. CORE!

One thing I can say for 11.5 is the new axis translate works pretty fast too once the model has been loaded into the new mesh handler. I had to manipulate a 4000,000 poly landscape yesterday and the biggest slowdown was waiting for the object to be pre-processed. Once the tool was active, manipulating the geometry, was way faster than LW's old translate tool. In time I expect to see some significant improvements - NT have the CORE tech, they just got to phase it in to Modeler, which I'm sure is easier said than done unfortunately...

Nicolas Jordan
03-30-2013, 07:01 AM
With all the enhancements in 701 for handling large amounts of data smoothly modo is much much faster at handing things like this and would likely be comparable to Core in that demo now.

Lewis
03-30-2013, 07:04 AM
If that doesn't show just how clunky Modeler is, I don't know what else does. Would be nice if Lewis could drop you the model to compare in LW11.5

Will we see tumbling speeds and Modeler performance as the main focus of improvement in LW12?

It's not tumbling speed it's manipulating mesh (rotating/moving/scaling....). You can tumble in perspecive pretty decent (not great but decent) around that mesh but when you want to move it then it's all downhill. So it's not really openGL issue, LWM has fast openGL mode (granted we could use few more features liek SSAO, Displacements/bumps/shader...) but general gometry manipulation is slow as hell.

Also thinkg is that ITEM mode helps manipulating (same mesh will faster rotate in layout) 'coz it's nto expecting oy uto move and points/polys/edges whil ein "edit" mod eit's always tryign to calulate that even if you aren't doing any draging of points. MAX,Modo, Core.... all have ITEM/PART mode so they can manipulate geometry much faster.

As for Lw 10 vs 11.x it's not faster if oyu use refgular move/scale/roate but if oyu use new Fast preview modes with transform tool then it's much faster, only downside is that it takes too long to "activate" tool since it's copying somethign to memory or GFX card or whatever tech is under the hood so all what you gain with good speed with new tool and Fast mode you loose on "waiting" to start the tool so workflow is PITA :(.

For 12 they have to do somethign special, this is unbareable :(.

Lewis
03-30-2013, 07:08 AM
With all the enhancements in 701 for handling large amounts of data smoothly modo is much much faster at handing things like this and would likely be comparable to Core in that demo now.


I'll test wiht 701 demo when it arrives but I'm 100% sure (i've seen some tests recently) it won't be comaprable with CORE FPS on that mesh :). Back then whe we tested i recorded videos and FPS on CORE was over 100 FPS while closest next app (i think it was XSI or C4D) was obut 65-70 FPS and LWM was 1-2 FPS while modo was about 5-6 FPS. Core smoked them all by FPS and by a mile so I hope NT has way of importing that performance into LW ASAP :).

Waves of light
03-30-2013, 08:03 AM
lewis - yer, sorry... didn't mean tumbling meant rotating... bit of a brain fart there.


so, if NT could do the geometry change at load time, so that when it came to rotation or manipulation you wouldn't see any slow down, would that work. obviously then other functions and processes would have to be reprogrammed to work with the changed mesh. then over time they could start to drop the old rotation processes and only have the 'new style' quicker mesh at initial design stage.

Lewis
03-30-2013, 08:20 AM
I'm not really sure how can they do it in classicLW to replace current manipulation speed with this new system they introduced in 11.5 but I think it might lead to writing new all/most tools which understand that new fast preview/system. If is just replacing system then wed probably see speedup with classic LWM toosl and we don't see it so it must be some more probelmatic tech under the hood which needs to be replaced and tools has to be written form scratch to utilize that. Good thing is that they are aware of siutuation/problem (better ever than never ;)) and "who knows" thing is what will happen with plugins ? Would that mean that all plugins will be left at "snail speed" or even worse become broken i have no idea. BUT even if is cut with backwards compatibility I'm all for it, we can't be draged in past due legac things (too much backwars compatibility hurts LW also), that's why i thought CORE is right path/fresh start (no more 32bit only problems etc...). If they want soem old scenes/meshes to work in 10 years form now they shoudl just allow us to donwload older version for free and that's it. Let's say somene buys LW 12 (in future) and LW12 is much different beast than 11.5 (i sure hope so :)) and you can't open 11.5 scen in 12 'coz of some reason or you can open it but it looks different (due many reasons like updated/changed render engine, texturing...) well you can always go to your register/downloads and downlad 11.5, 11, 10, 9,5.... and use it there for exact backward compatibility :).

IF is me deciding I'd probably kill 32bit version all together, some apps (AfterEffects) did it few years ago and they are doign just fine, That way DEVs would have one version less to worry about and we'd have cleaner/better plugins base :).

metahumanity
03-30-2013, 12:25 PM
Lux/Foundry abandoned 32 bit altogether. Modo is 64 only now.

Lewis
03-30-2013, 12:34 PM
Lux/Foundry abandoned 32 bit altogether. Modo is 64 only now.

That's good decision IMHO, Anyone who wants to do 3D really needs more than 4GB Ram anyway (especially more than 2GB per process in 32bit environment) so it's no brainer today whe mobile phones have 2GB of RAM and similar.

hrgiger
03-30-2013, 02:35 PM
Love the video. CORE showed a lot of potential. Too bad so many people had to look at it and go 'ewww, that's not lightWave' and dismiss it.

And yes, lets scuttle the 32 bit version.

Nicolas Jordan
03-30-2013, 04:09 PM
I'll test wiht 701 demo when it arrives but I'm 100% sure (i've seen some tests recently) it won't be comaprable with CORE FPS on that mesh :). Back then whe we tested i recorded videos and FPS on CORE was over 100 FPS while closest next app (i think it was XSI or C4D) was obut 65-70 FPS and LWM was 1-2 FPS while modo was about 5-6 FPS. Core smoked them all by FPS and by a mile so I hope NT has way of importing that performance into LW ASAP :).

Wow I didn't realize Core was that good at handling high poly counts. It will be interesting to see how 701 does with that test. Even trying to edit high poly trees in Modeler is nearly impossible. I would really like to see some improvements in this area for Lightwave 12.

Surrealist.
03-30-2013, 04:58 PM
It all depends on what level you are manipulating at. Large models will slow down XSI too if you are in a component mode, but fly in object mode. Recently I had a chance to do some work in Modeder where I was bringing things in from XSI. XSI is till faster in general, but will slow significantly in component mode.

Modeler is like a constant component mode and it is slow if you navigate or manipulate. That is the largest problem. If they can simply slide in some kind of an object display/select mode in Modeler it would make a huge difference. Would seem to me that would be a quicker first fix before replacing the entire core. You could navigate and then switch to component select. Would not be the end all fix, but not a band-aid either because this mode is desperately need in Modeler anyway.

And it would make manipulating mesh at the object level for transforms so much faster. Not sure how that works out technically, if it requires integration first... just thinking.

probiner
03-30-2013, 07:46 PM
And yes, lets scuttle the 32 bit version.Would be nice but if only a new modeling system was in place and the tools started to pop up.

As for now, are there any people doing mostly modeling all day not using Modeler 32-bit at ALL?

Personally there are too many legacy gems.

Cheers

Megalodon2.0
03-30-2013, 09:07 PM
Personally there are too many legacy gems.
Anyone still needing older 32bit LW can still use older LW 32bit Modeler - even if they upgrade to ONLY 64bit LW in the future.

There's always a way. :)

+1 for dropping 32bit LW

Lewis
03-31-2013, 02:59 AM
Would be nice but if only a new modeling system was in place and the tools started to pop up.

As for now, are there any people doing mostly modeling all day not using Modeler 32-bit at ALL?

Personally there are too many legacy gems.

Cheers

I use(d) Modeler 32b for 95% of my modeling tasks but as of 11.5 I'm more and more in Modeler 64b (decreased my modeler 32b percentage to like 70% and could go evne lower if i try harder :)). Thing is that you always can have older version installed if you desperately need some old plugin. I still need some 32b plugins 'coz NT didn't provided some replacement or similar tools important for my workflow like SLIDE tool (sliding points/edges) whcih i use hundred of times a day but other missing plugins for me are mostly specialized stuff and nowdays 80% of my 3rd party plugins are existign in 64b. If Pictirx would make all of his plugins availalbe in 64b then i think i culd got 99% to 64b modeling :).

But main thing is that somewhere it must be drawed line and start killing 32b , if they don't start switch then 3rd party won't either so we will drag this 32b for years and years and it really has no sense in 3D insdustry anymore 'coz all CPUs in last 10+ years are 64b anyway :).

colkai
03-31-2013, 03:15 AM
Would be nice but if only a new modeling system was in place and the tools started to pop up.

As for now, are there any people doing mostly modeling all day not using Modeler 32-bit at ALL?

Personally there are too many legacy gems.

Cheers

Not to mention, some dongle-locked plugins won't work with the 64-bit, because, for some reason which is beyond me, LW 64-bit reports a different hardware ID ithan 32-bit, so the plugins are not "registered". For those plugins that the author has since abandoned, that means you have to stop using them. Then again, I suppose most of those plugins won't work under 11.5 anyway as it is no longer dongle-tied, which again means you either give 'em up or stick with 9.6 32-bit for modelling.

probiner
03-31-2013, 03:19 AM
Agreed Lewis :)

Same for Pictrix here, along with Dedge Slide, FI Wrinkle ans others.

Cheers

mav3rick
03-31-2013, 03:57 AM
+1 to cut 32bit and khm... mac.. ups i didnt say that :)

Dexter2999
03-31-2013, 09:52 AM
I'd almost bet that Microsoft will stop supporting 32bit before Newtek does. Basically because MS is big enough they can do whatever they want and not care who they tick off ("Ribbon", Windows 8, etc...) whereas Newtek is hanging on for dear life to it's market share and don't want to alienate anyone.

Lewis
03-31-2013, 11:38 AM
I'd almost bet that Microsoft will stop supporting 32bit before Newtek does. Basically because MS is big enough they can do whatever they want and not care who they tick off ("Ribbon", Windows 8, etc...) whereas Newtek is hanging on for dear life to it's market share and don't want to alienate anyone.

I doubt that, Windows 32bit has sense for cheap office computers where you really don't need more than 4GB of Ram but for 3D even hobby users nowdays need more than 2GB per process and more than 3.25-3.5 GB available in total.

Dexter2999
03-31-2013, 12:47 PM
Interesting take Lewis. I don't know. I just get the impression that with even ARM processors going 64 bit, the justification for production of 32bit PC's in a business model seems to fall apart.

How much longer will there be a demand to justify a facility dedicated to 32bit production? What is the ROI vs a 64bit facility?

Dunno, just saying my opinion is that the "end of days" in neigh for 32bit. Next five years maybe?