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View Full Version : Lightwave 8 is going to be a waste !!!



colkai
11-07-2003, 06:27 AM
..Or so it would seem if you scan these forums and read the huge amount of negative reactions from people as of late.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as of the time of this post, LW[8] *HAS NOT* been released, nor indeed has any FULL disclosure of what it contains.
Nor have Newtek stated what they intend to release in any 'point' releases those who are upgrading will get for FREE.

So, given this, why are folks so absolutely keen to bash both LW and Newtek any chance they get? :mad:

I read lots of how "I love LW, been using it since Blah.. BUT..", then there's the old "they are too late - missed the boat etc..etc.." threads. It astounds me that anyone gets it to do anything if you read all these, let alone anything that would get included in say a blockbuster movie.

Now, call me sappy, call me what you will, but I think Newtek deserve considerably more respect than they are getting here lately.

They are approachable, they *have* listened to things people have said in the past and continue to do so.
Lest we forget, they are a reasonably small company with a product, they don't have to tell us anything - many do not beyond the advertising hype put out.

So, as the very obvious risk of being unpopular in my belief that LW8 will be worth the money and that Newtek will probably have a few killer-punch surprises up their sleeves.

THANK YOU PROTON, CHUCK AND ALL NEWTEK !!

For a package that is affordable & fun to use, gives great results and is still not bloatware in these 'make it bigger not better' times we live in.
Thank you for listening and continuing to participate in dialogue with the users and would-be-users even when it seems it is more trouble than it is worth.
Thank you for the sneak peeks that get us frustrated and excited at the same time.

Thank you - from an old LW user who will take LW with faults than no LW any day!

Oh, by the way, I am in no way associated with Newtek or any of their associates - I just use their software.

EDIT:
This is not about if LW has shortcomings or if it could be improved, (If it didn't need to be improved, we wouldn't be getting LW[8]). It is about a show of respect and thanks is all.

CB_3D
11-07-2003, 07:04 AM
this topic title doesn´t help to change perception, neither.

retinajoy
11-07-2003, 07:19 AM
I have visited forums of the other main apps such as 3D Max, maya etc. Compared to them, Newtek gets a lot more involved with their customers for feedback, giving tasters of what is to come and so on. Pointing out flaws and saying what can be improved is a good thing, but I agree some people on these forums lack respect. I generally think the Lightwave community is excellent. I am excited about Lighwave 8 and it's enhanced char tools and have ordered it and got by DFX too. Looking forward to seeing/hearing/reading about the whole list of enhancements when it starts to ship. No point judging LW8 til we have got the whole picture.

Noclar7
11-07-2003, 07:26 AM
. ahaha. ya know what.. its friday morning, and reading this post just makes me laugh. why? because I think were all just like a bunch of kids waiting for christmas. Some are rotten about it, most are happy, but were all anxious and I think its driving us mad.

colkai
11-07-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by CB_3D
this topic title doesn´t help to change perception, neither.

That being my point really, folks will quickly dive in to debate, but rarely to thank.
I think had I titled it what I feel "Respect da House" or some such - it probably would get no reaction at all.

Noclar7: You probably are not far from a basic truth there ;)

I guess I'm having a bad time, I'm old, grumpy and frankly tired of the same old cr*p every time Newtek mention a release, I just feel the guys need to get an even break.
Hey - we all need a little love ya know :D

So come on folks - group hug for the guys at Newtek, stop wiping ya dirty boots on their floor. :p

JohnD
11-07-2003, 07:52 AM
Well, fortunately I haven't been visiting threads as of lately so haven't seen the bashing. Not sure what there is to complain about, especially since the update hasn't even been released yet.

Castius
11-07-2003, 08:10 AM
"It is about a show of respect "
I think that’s the main problem at hand. Allot of people have become to conferrable with the internet to the point that they feel less of a need to show as much respect as one would do in person. It’s a good thing cause you can get a more honest response some times. But for the majority of the time it not the best way to talk to other people. On a brighter note this forum has improved by leaps and bonds from the days before the announcement of lw 8. Before that I had all of stopped coming here.

mattclary
11-07-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by colkai
So, as the very obvious risk of being unpopular in my belief

You're popular! AT least among the right-minded. ;)

siproductions
11-07-2003, 08:55 AM
colkai,

I couldn't agree more with your first post. Thanks for bringing this up.

Phil
11-07-2003, 09:05 AM
Well I have to say that my impression of NT really jumped up when Deuce got in touch about a number of bug reports I had filed. It's not the fact that Deuce got in touch so much as the perceived big black hole of [email protected] actually was more like a tunnel and there was light at the end. It's a small thing, but it genuinely makes me feel a lot better about filing bugs and working around problems in LW :)

I also found that the recorded streams from SIGGRAPH have done a lot to make me interested in LW 8. I still live by the belief that it is foolish to deploy a .0 release of anything into production, but I am more interested than I was. Quite why NT haven't made a set of decent quality copies of the streams available is a mystery to me (or have they? I couldn't find them)

It's always going to be difficult to balance the needs of keeping your suprise factor intact, as a commercial requirement, and keeping your customers happy once an upcoming release is announced. I guess people are never happy knowing there is a new tool out there that they cannot use (yet) whilst others are.

I suspect the majority of complaints are from those not in production environments, but also there are grounds for some complaints due to the relatively buggy nature of recent LW updates. People would like to see a fixed and stable LW and it looks like that will happen (in respect of current features) with 8.0 rather than a 7.5d update. I can't say that makes me hugely happy given that, for example, the LWSN spreadsheet problem still exists (also can affect Layout from time to time); particleFX-driven objects lose the reference particle data when object layers are added or removed from the scene via the HUB; etc.

The LScript situation needs a re-think to allow backward compatibility for at least one previous version - it's absurd to require people to swap between 7.5 and 7.5a/b/c because some scripts break in-between. I'm aware that the changes made were important, but since there is a version compatibility string in all scripts, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to use this to run a compatible version of LScript. I just don't trust LScript at all (especially not compiled ones) and wouldn't be prepared to license a commercial one in case it breaks down the road and the developer has disappeared. It's been like this since LScript was BML back in the 5.5 days - for all the changes, the situation is still less than desirable.

These and others are genuine issues that are getting people riled because there has been little comment on them with respect to 7.x or 8. I think that you get more comment ahead of a release because that is the only time that real development is visible - the loudest squeal gets the oil, so to speak.

cresshead
11-07-2003, 10:49 AM
well i believe that newtek have and are doing a great job with lightwave...it's nice 3d app to use and pretty stable compared to *ax which i also use daya to day and teach at a college.

newtek have a stunning deal for new users and upgraders i'd like to see other app's try n do that...we don't see an upgrade from max 5 to max 6 with a free version of combustion3 do we?

or a set of training dvd's "given away"...if you want training dvd's they are £125 plus vat & p+P for max....

some people should take a look around...stones in glas houses etc...

maya's upgrade from 4.5 to 5 is £800...for a 0.5 upgrade...we got 7.5 from version 7 for how much???...oh yeah..nothing..free...

in some repects the more you give the less respect they have for you...same with communication...discreet as a company do little to communicate well with their users...they throw out a new version with bolt on plugins rather than a version re write..

weird how customers of discreet do't moan that much...

steve g:rolleyes:

Valter
11-07-2003, 11:28 AM
if lw had all stuffs that maya has(dynamic, rigging, render, game support, etc). I'll pay 800 too.
But let's wait what lw8 reserve for us after 2 year of development.

cheers

Exper
11-07-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Valter
But let's wait what lw8 reserve for us after 2 year of development.I hardly believe that much work was done before the end of the infamous Lux affair!

In this case... NT's new development team is really blazing... ;)

Bye.

animotion
11-07-2003, 02:38 PM
Keep up the good work NT.;)

Zach
11-07-2003, 03:16 PM
Awe...thanx NewTek. :p

Kuzey
11-07-2003, 04:57 PM
People can be funny sometimes.

Kuzey

who can't wait to get his hands on Lw8 :p

SplineGod
11-07-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Exper
I hardly believe that much work was done before the end of the infamous Lux affair!

In this case... NT's new development team is really blazing... ;)

Bye.
I think you hit it on the head. :)
The new dev team is composed of some VERY smart people and yes they are blazing :)

jin choung
11-08-2003, 01:40 AM
actually,

i think that the rumors of useful, meaningful interaction is highly overrated.

i guess it depends on what your concerns were/have been and whether they have chosen to address those concerns.

i guess if you guys use layout and care about animation, then a great deal of your issues are being discussed and addressed. good for you.

i on the other hand have been working almost exclusively with modeler for the game industry and modeler has been a complete information black hole.

further, modeler users have been harping on and on and on about those things that we care about in modeler and we've heard nary a peep about whether they will be dealt with, whether they will EVER be dealt with and what if anything the developers feel about the feasibility of such things.

and especially without ANY FEEDBACK WHATSOEVER as to whether anything we say is actually registering, i'd say that we've got a real gripe that we've every right to be grumpy about.

and after ALL the things that we've asked for, the fact that the only thing that's on the roster for modeler as being for certain is ANIMATABLE UV'S ([email protected]#$-do) which begs the question who the [email protected]#$ asked for that anyway?!?!?!?! i'd say that most people who care about modeler are exasperated, without hope and have good reason to grind and gnash.

jin

colkai
11-08-2003, 02:47 AM
Jin,
Do you believe then that Newtek have no intention of attacking modellers weaknesses with any of the point releases of LW8? Do you hold out no hope of improvement?

I also wonder, if LW is so frustrating and inadequate for what you are doing, why have you not switched to a modeller better suited to your discipline. Of course if your studio only has Lightwave then you don't have an option I guess.

Certainly MAX has a new product that is very much tailored to game modelling. (I'm sure they had a free one too? then again, might not be free for commercial use, dunno). This point I admit does lend weight to your argument about LW needing better 'game tools' as it were. I just figure, with so many tools out there for a studio to take advantage of, I would of thought it makes sense to use what was best, rather tha nstruggle with something you feel is unsuited to your needs.

It's just funny that no one complains about Maya being lacking when they have to use LW to complete a job that Maya can't handle on it's own, they just accept it.

I guess that alone says something of the passion for Lightwave, people don't expect other packages to be the holy grail, they all are far from perfect, but dammit, LW should be!

Even with all the cr*p thrown at them, Newtek have to take a certain sense of ironic satisfaction from that. :p

Nemoid
11-08-2003, 03:26 AM
Well, I think that the Nt new dev team can do very well: if we think that Nt hired some of the authors of great plugs, like Ortho tools, :) I think we will see interesting and clever things at all.

also, one consideration needs to be done. Nt said many times that evolution of lightwave will take place in 8 and 8.x releases, and this means that many aspects of tha app will be considered and enhanced step by step.

they said also that the 8.x releases will come closer one next to other, so there will be probably a 8.2, 8.3.. so, if an introduced tools need some enhancement, or small fix, that's it. if some other area of the app need some new approach that's it as well.

It will surely be a step by step enhancement process.

Now, all these things are all very positive. :D

the fact that some people stress the weak points of Lw now, haven't to be seen everytime as negative. this allows to Nt team to focus their attention into aspects of the app wich may require some work, get some ideas etc.

the high consideration into wich Nt team deserves, especially now, its out of discussion. :)

Mylenium
11-08-2003, 04:11 AM
Well, I mainly share Jin's point of view. On the other hand the pics published in the Community section got my hopes up again. Even though I'm still only saying "LW 8 is probably going to be an okay release, but many things are just catching up with the competitors", there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Still, I wish they would be more forthcoming with Modeler. That's the one area where LW can beat a lot of apps such as Maya and MAX but without at least some improvement they are going to lose that argument, too. There are so many companies with a combined LW (Modeler) and Maya/ MAX (Animation) workflow...

As for that marketing/ support/ customer care thing: Hey guys, I live in Germany and that one is really giving me the creeps. I could weep all day - there hasn't been an ad for LW in any mag for ages, there's no region specific printed info material, resellers are retreating from selling LW at all and if it wasn't for the Internet we'd be living on planet Lonesome.

Mylenium

js33
11-08-2003, 04:37 AM
What kind of magazines do you read in Germany? There are LW ads in almost every mag I read...Post, Keyframe (of course), DV, Digit, etc...

Also for those wanting more game authoring features I think they will come down the road a bit once 8 is out. Maybe in 8.1-8.5.
There is also that other 'Modo'ler coming out. It will be interesting to see what support it will have for game creators.

Cheers,
JS

hrgiger
11-08-2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by js33
There is also that other 'Modo'ler coming out. It will be interesting to see what support it will have for game creators.

Cheers,
JS

Yeah, that's if it ever comes out...

And Newtek has mentioned that improvements to modeler are forthcoming whether it's in release 8 or not. But it comes down to deciding if it's worth it to you to upgrade as soon as 8 comes out or not. Hmm, I don't remember any whining about what was going to be in Lightwave 7. Of course, we were kind of surprised when 7 was released so people had no time to whine. Well, shame on you NT for announcing 8 so early and not telling everyone everything...
:rolleyes:

js33
11-08-2003, 05:52 AM
Yeah this time waiting for 8 has been painful. I never had to wait and wonder so long with previous versions. In fact I don't remember really contemplating future releases at all until 8. Maybe I was busier actually working then to worry about it. :D

Cheers,
JS

jin choung
11-08-2003, 06:22 AM
hey colkai,

so you're a love it or leave it kinda guy?

i don't hold to that at all.

and as i say, i'm grumpy as hell and everything that i see as it regards modeler gives me no reason to be hopeful.

hey, if i see something promising, i'll be the first one to say so.

but COME ON!!!

given the laundry list of really important and USEFUL requests for modeler that have been submitted over YEARS, that some fu(%tard decides 'animatable uvs', hey that sounds good... seriously... it leaves me shaking my head in bewilderment and disgust.

so far, what i've heard about modeler is animatable uvs and 'it's good enough as it is'.

neither is good enough for me or my hard earned dollar. and i reserve the right to be grumpy till i hear different.

jin

p.s. and as for future updates, as soon as i hear ANYTHING about what the [email protected]#$ they plan with modeler, things will look up for me. but as i said, so far, the party line is nothing except that it's already good enough and everything else focuses on layout.

Karmacop
11-08-2003, 06:50 AM
I find it amusing that you believe animatable UV's are a modeler feature :p

jin choung
11-08-2003, 07:07 AM
yah, i was thinking it probably belongs in layout... don't remember what i saw that made me think otherwise.

ok, than did they say ANYTHING at all about modeler... perhaps not.

color me grumpy.

jin

Mike_RB
11-08-2003, 08:18 AM
well, the've done *somthing* to modeler. Here is a screen grab william posted a while ago...

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=61756


Mike

Karmacop
11-08-2003, 08:28 AM
I think the reason they haven't said anything about modeler is because they are keeping it secret, not because there haven't been changes.

Don't be disappointed until it has been released.

cgolchert
11-08-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Yeah, that's if it ever comes out... Don't start the NT/Lux fight again.

Both Modo AND Lightwave 8 are vaporware UNTIL a customer has either in their hands. I'm sure we will see both of them though.

Polymangler
11-08-2003, 12:53 PM
here here colkai i think....all the negative posts are disturbing and granted LW is not a flawless machine but then again nothing is especially in the 3d relm. These guys have been playing all of us perfectly to build up the right amount of controversy and antisipation so keep up these threads churning up for a solid 6 months now...think about that, if they came out with a feature list told us all the things it's going to have we'd buzz for a week or so and then move on complaining again about [8] not having this or falling short in some area.

I've only been on the Newtek boat for a year now but i must say i've been impressed with their performance and use to be impresseed with the user base support but here of late, as colkai, pointing out we've looked more like a lench mob waiting see newtek accussed of whichcraft so we can burn them at the cross...

anyway, newtek keep rockin' and wavers keep wavein...by next year we are all gonna be some happy campers :D

cresshead
11-08-2003, 01:10 PM
just a little history....when i was looking to get a full on pro 3d app and was lookging at lightwave5.6, maya1.0 and max2.5...the newtek line was that your going to love version 6..total rewrite and rumours of a quadroped plugin to bash the likes of character studio and it's biped....well...that didn't make it did it!....i waited and waited but no lw6.0 came out...so rather than hope for cool stuff i went with a solid "known out now app" app in max2.5 and character studio..they at least were here and i could try them out...so in a long winded answer..yup we've seen a big hoo harrr about an up n comming release of lightwave before..and there were many hot headed threads about it on the net...so nothing "new" there!

with lightwave 8 though at least we have witnessed some of the features being shown on video over the net...before it arrives...yeah i'd like to know more...but i bet that newtek have a "TO DO LIST" for lw8 and don't want to write all of them down for us to look at as some may not make the 8.0 release and possibly there may be new stuff they are trying to cram into 8.0...
also..they maybe waiting to see what "other" vendors deliver...
they have seen the latest version of maya and max just come out...could be they want to see the "other" one as well so the lw8 that does arrive does so with a confident BANG!

...okay rumor time....why no big mention of modeller??
could it be that modeller IS intergrated into layout now????
...animatable uv's????????

bye bye!

stee g

EyesClosed
11-08-2003, 03:44 PM
In this case... NT's new development team is really blazing...

If you can call adding a bunch of plugins and changing the interface color blazing. :rolleyes:

hrgiger
11-08-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
Don't start the NT/Lux fight again.

Both Modo AND Lightwave 8 are vaporware UNTIL a customer has either in their hands. I'm sure we will see both of them though.

There's no fight to be had. There's nothing to debate. Luxology is in no way connected to Newtek, I think that's been established.
If vaporware is software that we don't have in our hands yet, I'll grant you that. But Lightwave is a product while Modo is yet to be. We also know when we'll have Lightwave by...Who knows when and if Modo will ever get here. Not sure why that would start a fight, Max, Maya and XSI are mentioned constantly here.

As far as modeler goes, I'm sure there will be changes or new features. The last few major updates have had quite a few enhancements, I'm sure 8 will be no different. However, I think the vast majority of people would agree that modeler is the strong side of Lightwave and Layout could definately use the work first. I could wait for a free update to see some serious change in modeler.

takkun
11-08-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
If you can call adding a bunch of plugins and changing the interface color blazing. :rolleyes: Another brain-dead flame from CIM. Grow Up.

SplineGod
11-08-2003, 04:07 PM
I think if I had to look at an additional modeler I would look at Silo at www.nevercenter.com. Their modeler seems to have a similar feature set to Modo, it already exists, the price is right ($109.00) and they seem genuinely interested in customer feedback and support.
I also dont care if Lightwave has additional tools in the form of plugins or has the interface improved. I think any improvements that increase workflow and productivity are good. Whats under the hood doesnt matter to me as long as it fills my needs. :)

Rei
11-08-2003, 04:21 PM
Jin : im sure i remember seeing a release talking about great improvements for game development, heck prehaps they are putting a game engine into it (can we have havok plz?)

As for LW itself, everyone does seem to be in the *if it doesnt have (whatever) then im going* umm, whats so amazingly wrong with LW 7.0/5 that you cant use it? huh?

Seriously everyone, this place has become very hot recently, I left town for a while after SIGRAPH because the news made everyone go crazy.


As for me, well so long as modeler isnt downgraded (i think you know what i mean) then I will be getting a copy of [8]

Hervé
11-09-2003, 02:25 AM
COM'on, we'll all stick with LW, and we all love LW, otherwise we would not be here posting, and we would not have bought LW either.... so ALL the people here (even the sometimes basher's like me) LOVE LW, it's like people complaining about stupid TV programs, yet they are the first to watch them...

It is a relation of HATE/LOVE, and it's normal, we can only Hate the people we LOVE... love and HATE are on the same planet.... and here we are all with different goals, but all in the same F... Boat, and the captain is called NT, and it's too late to change, the boat is in the middle of the ocean....

Oh hisse et haut ! Santia-aaa go !

GIMME THE EIGHT OR I'LL KILL U... he he

Happy relaxed Sunday...
(U see I am working 7/7... 10 to 12 hours a day withhhhhh LIGHTWAVE..

Dont worry, be happy...

Hervé
(Bad choice for the Title anyway Colkai, I almost passed by, thinking, noOOOOO, another Bashing... and I open the thread coz of your name as a starter...)

Cheers again
Hervé

colkai
11-09-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Rei
Jin : im sure i remember seeing a release talking about great improvements for game development, heck prehaps they are putting a game engine into it (can we have havok plz?)

As for LW itself, everyone does seem to be in the *if it doesnt have (whatever) then im going* umm, whats so amazingly wrong with LW 7.0/5 that you cant use it? huh?


Rei,
Now you mention it, I have a vague recollection of game tools being mentioned. Some good points. (Mind you, I would say that because I agree with them ;) ).

Mylenium
11-09-2003, 04:07 AM
To js33:

I meant German magazines, not foreign ones. Putting ads in foreign mags and then expecting German company officials to buy LW is a terrible mistake. Everybody likes to be pampered at least a little and that kind of weak marketing is nowhere near creating a brand awareness for LW let alone it will attract more users. For instance the people from Cinema4D and Bodypaint have about 2 full page ads each month in every important German mag (which easily weighs in for about 20 ads in total)! Even if that doesn't necessarily generate more sales it surely keeps them in the talks.

BTW, for what little useful content there is in most of the mags you mentioned, they are surely not worth their hefty price, so don't expect too many people reading them. DigitMag is possibly still the best there for the software sometimes included on the cover CD.

Mylenium

Jabba
11-09-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by takkun

Originally posted by EyesClosed
If you can call adding a bunch of plugins and changing the interface color blazing.

Another brain-dead flame from CIM. Grow Up.

I think that he (she?) is right. You can call it as you did but tell as something that will chagne our minds.

If newtek had something to expose, something that NT did alone, I think that the best place to show it was the siggraph.
EyeClosed said two things that we was seeig at siggraph. Gui and plugins - no matter that those plugins are integrated into GUI. Exept IKBooster and rewrited MD all those plugins are old (FXBreak and OrthoTools). But all those 'new' stuff are also third party plugins. It leads you back to a EyeCandy point - so what is exactly the main product of long time NT's hard work? We don't see at siggraph video nothing new about LW itself. If you want to say that in MD 'zipper' example they click at points in layout - yep, but there are others plugins already on the market that can select points in layout. In the other hand, if they had it done in the global manner, I think that they show as another usage just to impressing us (and competitors). The fact that IKBooster could change the weight at skeleton joints interactively and visualy in layout is amazing and it is a prove that it work and that it could be done. But they don't show that feature on something else. For example on changing the weightmaps on a model interactively and visualy. That leads also to one point - NT complete the 'LayoutTool' class in SDK (the header of this class is in LW SDK for years, but it's empty and it is just a 'placeholder'), If developer of IKBooster use it for changing the prop. of skeleton joins in that way, where NT alone exactly using that feature?

I don't want be mean aggressive. It just seems to me like NT start to work 4 months ago. Someone inteligent rething the strategy and they start to work on things that are crucial (or they just can't stand the pressure from third party developers). That's a good think and good direction. But that's not a reason for whole numbered release. I think that with the today's tempo, something about 8.5 will be a candidate for whole numbered release. OR - MAYBE - They're trying to catch all those things and that's why we all just waiting, and something like 8.2-3 will be released in february with eight point zero on the box.

colkai
11-09-2003, 06:15 AM
Call me naive if you will...
But I tend to think Newtk will have some surprises for us, Chuck has alredy stated that they are not announcing everything for reasons related to competitors.
Now to me, that suggests something in progress that, if announced now, would give their competitors an angle on what they are up to.

Also, I'd like to make a distinction here about a statement that seem to pop up every few posts.

LW[8] won't just 'include' FX-Break and such, Newtek now EMPLOY the programmer, so my guess is it's more than likely FX-Break on steroids, along with other plugins the guy created.

This means his talents are now in "the pool" as it were, that can only be good. If he can do such good programs by himself - imagine what he can achieve with more resources and a direct link to LW source code!

Now - couple that with the fact Newtek have brought in a few "young guns" - gotta be interesting times ahead, I think it's crazy to believe otherwise.

Only my opinions mind, based on 25 years in the coding game. Oh yes - I really am *that* old ;)

Matt
11-09-2003, 06:35 AM
As much as we all love brand new features added to LightWave, I think integrating the better plugins is an essential part of development.

One of my gripes is the 'oh there's a plugin that can do that' syndrome, yes, some are useful as plugins and work fine like that, but having every tool as a plugin makes the package fragmented, especially as plugins can only go so far into the SDK.

If it were completely opened up then it would be a different story.

At the moment there are a lot of plugins that have overlapping functionality, rounding them up and integrating them fully is a good thing.

I'm not saying new features aren't welcome, of course they are, but plugin integration shouldn't be seen as lesser development.

Matt

archiea
11-09-2003, 01:28 PM
An exciting thought, gang, is that LW 8 is going to be the first version of LW with a new programming team, and a new direction from NT. Perhaps we should give them until 8.5 or 9.0 to pass any broad judgement....

FenrirWolf
11-09-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Matt
As much as we all love brand new features added to LightWave, I think integrating the better plugins is an essential part of development. That's a very good point. Plugins are Lightwave's greatest strength -- and weakness.

I've got a handful of plugins that I simply cannot live without. The problem is, they're all third party. A lot of them are designed and written by a single person, usually in their spare time. While a majority of them are well-written, I've got quite a few that will bring Lightwave to its knees if given improper values.

Now that I think of it, almost all of the crashes I've had from Lightwave are due to 3rd party plugins.

Newtek should have someone devoted to analyzing the most well-used plugins and then either working deals with the authors to have them included in the next LW release (after being thoroughly QA'd, that is), or work on their own code base to integrate it into LW. Maybe they do this already, I don't know. This would probably help raise the opinion of Lightwave immensely.

Doug_M
11-09-2003, 03:31 PM
Damned if you do, damned if you don't seems to sum things up.
I remember when there were a lot of complaints about Newtek not pre-announcing more about their releases and just sort of unveiling things unexpectedly. Now they release some advance info and they get more complaints. Maybe it's better to judge something when it is in your hands than to speculate. :p

However, I think there are a few reasons for the anticipation/concern/impatience for the new release. Lets go through the list:
1) The Newtek/Luxology thing (it cannot be ignored)
2) The New development staff (see 1)
3) The rumor prerelease hype about 8 being a total rewrite
(where did that come from anyway?)
4) The buggy nature of 7.5 b and c revisions.

Given all of that, I can see some cause for concern. However, lets give Newtek the respect that they deserve. Building 3d apps is not the easiest job in the world. 3d programs are the some of the most complex and evolving in computers right now. Consider the fact that in every version someone has to go through a list of the known bug fixes, feature requests, latest 3d research, core maintenance needs, features in competing apps, user friendliness and plug in integration/development and prioritize them for the programmers. Add on top of that a new development team and whew! I can see a lot of sleepless nights on the part of all involved, especially when you want to keep release cycles short.

Let's face it, no company can do everything in a single point release. As a matter of fact, no company should. Newtek has a lot of work ahead of them and at this point and I guess this makes for exciting drama and a good way to kill time(maybe they should make a movie). I will take a wait and see approach and hope that 8 will be compelling enough for me to want to upgrade and play!

As far as game development goes, I haven't seen any specifics on what needs to be fixed or changed. However, I brainstormed and came up with the following:
Vertex Paint
1) Allow display of shaded weight/vertex maps in layout (a new view type?).
2) Vertex paint tools in layout for weight maps. ( Animate and tweak vertex maps w/o flipping back and forth to modeller instant feedback on IK by replaying/scrubbing animation frames ).
3) or instead of 2) maybe a new modal vertex paint view/applet that comes up in either layout or modeller and affects both, depending on object being changed.
4) More channels in the vertex maps themselves. (sounds,phyisics,properties and other game specific attributes)
5) Shoot, why not just make vertex paint part of a full fledged 2d/3d painting applet/view.

Displacements
1)Displacement modelling in modeller
2)Smart hierarchical subd that can be refined using vertex/weight/displacement maps (see 5 above) and other tools in modeller.
3) Display of subd mesh without having to freeze objects in modeller.
4) Generate/bake normal maps from subdivided/displaced models in modeller. (start with a low res object or poly, subdivide, displace or edit with 2d/3d paint tools then generate/bake normal map)
5) Sub pixel displacement rendering in layout with options for lod.

UVs
1) Allow break up modification of model in UV texture view
without affecting the base model. (no need for morphs iiicck!)
2) Allow for vertex/texture/weight/displacement paint in UV texture view (2d paint) along with 3d paint on object.
.....

Enough for now, but I am sure others can come up with more!

takkun
11-09-2003, 07:13 PM
Jabba. I read your previous post but I can't understand the first paragraph-
I think that he (she?) is right. You can call it as you did but tell as something that will chagne our minds. "You can call it as you did but tell as something that will change our minds" ??? What does that mean? Did you run this through babelfish?

Look, CIM is just here to bash Newtek. He didn't like the original development team because they implemented so many half-assed features. And now he is bashing the new development team because they are trying to fix the holes that the Lux team left gaping in Lightwave.

The new motto of the Lightwave forums should be: "damned if you do, damned if you don't." :rolleyes:

Grow up, people.

Beamtracer
11-09-2003, 08:16 PM
Takkun, you should be accommodating of other peoples' efforts to speak English.

This forum is more international than it may first appear. Some people speak good English, while for others it's a major challenge.

For the native English speakers, I ask you, how many other languages do you speak? Those who have tried learning another language will know it's not an easy thing.

I think Jabba's post was understandable, even if the AltaVista Babelfish was used.

I'd like to congratulate all the people who's first language is not English for making the effort to contribute to this forum.

takkun
11-09-2003, 10:56 PM
Yes you're right, Beamtracer. I didn't even think that english wasn't his first language. I just thought he might of typed too fast and blended a couple sentences into one. The babelfish comment was a joke, it just read like some of the weird stuff babelfish sometimes creates. I didn't understand his first paragraph but the rest made perfect sense.

You know, it would really help if people used the Location option properly, instead of putting nothing or putting nonsense things like "Right behind you" or "The planet Zarnon in the Zigblat galaxy", etc. Just put in your REAL location.

Matt
11-10-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Doug_M
3) The rumor prerelease hype about 8 being a total rewrite (where did that come from anyway?)

I think that might have been something to do with the vX stuff in one of the interface threads, people reading it the wrong way I guess!

Nemoid
11-10-2003, 03:49 AM
I think that having a new team , its one great opportunity to see a different Lw development.
I'm very happy with the fact that Nt hired some talented 3rd party plugs authors to work for Lw, because those people are Lw users and know deeply Lw probs. so, for example, Irrational Number can work not only on integrating Ortho tools in Lw, but in other areas wich need some fix, or new features as well. the same is valid for other programmers.

The Lux affair, caused many probs into Lw developing, and that's why, the new team is working on it from not so much time, but the feeling is they're working very good.
for example, we are here discussing and discussìng, giving ideas for new features or fixes for the old featutes and tools, and I think that no other software house is so opened currently to user base opinions and ideas.

the future of 3D apps is based on these things, because only users, artists animators etc. know what's better and at the same time simplier to get the job done. so programmers wich base their development thinking to the final artists can make a very good job.

now, we all know Lw needs fixes, enhancements, good plugins integration and more, but I think Nt development team is not blind and will work in the areas wich needs enhancements first, and then will touch other areas wich are important as well, but that in a whole general app are not the biggest prob for now.

P.S. excuse my crap english. sometime i forget to apologize for that. I'm Italian and its not easy to express completely my ideas in a foreign language.:D

takkun
11-10-2003, 04:22 AM
I think the big difference between the old developers and the new developers is that before, they just slapped plug-ins in without much thought about usability and integration. From what I've seen since Siggraph, Ortho and FX break are not slapped in but are now seamlessly a part of Lightwave. Not to mention that they've added so many new features that weren't there in the original plugs like the right click menus for rigging and setting up dynamics. I'm really excited about this update and I'm happy about the direction that Newtek is going. Keep up the great work guys!

Hey Nemoid, your english is great, so is Jabba's (well, except for that one sentence) ;)

Matt
11-10-2003, 04:54 AM
You know, it's easy for us to think NewTek coders/feature decision makers aren't listening on the other end of this forum because they rarely post messages.

LightWave users must be the most vocal when it comes to expressing their likes / dislikes / ideas regarding LightWave, I'm pretty sure this isn't going un-noticed, this forum is a gold-mine for NewTek, I'm sure it helps them figure out where to take the software in future versions.

The future's bright, the future's a lens flare!

:)

Exper
11-10-2003, 05:30 AM
Take a look here (mid/end of the page)...
something interesting about Deuce's job
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=100353&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

NT is reading and well-aware! No doubt! ;)

Bye.

mattclary
11-10-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by archiea
An exciting thought, gang, is that LW 8 is going to be the first version of LW with a new programming team, and a new direction from NT. Perhaps we should give them until 8.5 or 9.0 to pass any broad judgement....



Exactly!

Nemoid
11-10-2003, 06:41 AM
I read Deuce's words and I have to say that they make great sense! :)
I think that in someway we helped Nt to find a good way, with ideas, even taken from other apps, or from our own workflow wich involves solving problems day by day.
of course, only bashing Nt for Lw weak points isn't constructive at all, while stressing probs and giving some solution can help a lot.:D

on the other hand I personally don't like fanboys attitudes, because I find them not useful at all, maybe even more dangerous than harsh critics ,and quite blind. if a bug or prob is there, you cannot pretend not to see it.

Hope to see [8] soon!! :)

takkun
11-10-2003, 06:56 AM
only bashing Nt for Lw weak points isn't constructive at all...

on the other hand I personally don't like fanboys attitudes...

You're right, people just need to be sensible. No cheerleading, no bashing. Just tell Newtek what you want in a detailed, well thought out way and then get back to creating.

dglenn
11-10-2003, 07:46 AM
First of all: Lightwave 8 will be out soon! It will be much better than 7.5c!

Next: Allot of the complaints have been everyone chafing at the bit because they seen what New Tek has added and is promising (most of us that went to SEGGRAPH) to add and We all can't wait.

Behave Children! :(

New Tek, I'm sure, is doing the best that they can getting this thing to market and want to make sure that it works right the first time - After all, it's a completive market and getting it right the first time is less painful for both us and them.

Finally: I don't think in any way that Lightwave is going to be a waste in any way - Far from it! I think that we'll all be happy when it comes out.

But..., I have to say that I've never, in the nearly 20 years that I've been in the "Smoke and Mirrors" business, that I've heard so much "Little Boy & Little Girl" bickering over such a thing. I feel like a someone that has been put in charge of a kindergarten class.

Shgh! I'm getting sick of it! :mad:

Now, you all behave or I'll put you in the corner and make you animate someone saying 'Wala Wala' 100 times! Without using LightWave!

mattclary
11-10-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
on the other hand I personally don't like fanboys attitudes, because I find them not useful at all, maybe even more dangerous than harsh critics ,and quite blind. if a bug or prob is there, you cannot pretend not to see it.

That's what the feature request forum is there for. And if you have a bug, call tech support and post it in the general support forum to let as many people know about it as possible.

hrgiger
11-10-2003, 10:12 AM
Agree with you there Matt. I'm a big fan of Lightwave and I usually take to the support of Lightwave when it comes to these issues, but I do run into problems. It's then when I take my issue to the feature request forum. Sure it's not an immediate fix, but it's good to know that others have the same problem and I think it's easier to show Newtek that some particular feature could use addressed.

jin choung
11-10-2003, 11:43 PM
i'm not a yes-man. newtek doesn't pay me enough to be a yes-man.

i won't be a cheerleader either unless i see things happening that seem favorable to me.

and like herve said, mine is indeed a love hate relationship. if i didn't love, i wouldn't stick around long enough to bad mouth it... i'd just leave. so yes, passionate expressions of disgruntlement is better than silence for in it there is at least passion... not indifference.

and i am anything if indifferent.

colkai, i got no problem with ya and you are free to express your views. but i do indeed disagree with it... i do indeed see reasons to gripe. but by all means peace... there's no quarrel between us.

as small a comparative investment as lw is, it is still one that i made with my hard earned cash. and one of the reasons why i stick by newtek so devoutly is because jennison can understand that my 'small' investment is not small to me. i like that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

considering the stuff that newtek has revealed about 8 so far, i do feel it is naive to think that the stuff they HAVEN'T revealed is even better....

i get the feeling that what we got is for better or worse the cream of the siggraph p.r. crop. and considering the timeline with the falling out, new hires, and time up to now, i think it's hard to imagine this NOT being the case.

and also, the whole lw8 campaign STARTED leaving a bad taste in my mouth. the early emphasis on the MERE COSMETICS of the interface (no functional, structural changes mind you that lw is indeed in need of... JUST COSMETICS) just made me leap out of my chair and scream 'WTF?!' the very last thing that needed addressing comes screaming out of the depths as if of prime importance.

blech.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

finally, i don't miss much.

people say thngs offhandedly and it sticks. i distinctly remember someone from the development community saying that they're not doing much for modeler cuz it's good enough.

that is an ACTUAL attitude that newtek had.

first, that's a completely wrong headed take on modeler and it completely crippled whatever interest i had in an upgrade.

second, if anything changed from then until now, it is precisely because we raised a mighty stink over it.

i'm a mild personality fellows. and i would not scream if it seemed more like people were listening. and if it didn't seem like the only time they DO listen is when the disgruntled discord reaches a critical mass. but if that's what it takes....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i also understand that newtek is a small company. but as a small company, they must feedback with results or they must feedback with communication. i understand they can't implement everything that i ask for but then how do i know they're even hearing me if they don't talk back or have public 'to do' lists?

as for the whole 'COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE' thing, money goes a long way toward cutting edge. that said, newtek is decidedly not cutting edge - and we'll be playing catchup for the forseeable future. so unless they're privvy to siggraph papers that no one else is privvy to, i think the 'C.A.' argument is moot.

seriously, when 8 comes out, you guys tell me if any feature in there benefitted from being kept secret....

jin

jin choung
11-10-2003, 11:45 PM
oh,

and since animatable uvs are likely not a modeler feature, i take back what i said... the person who thought it up is not a [email protected]#$tard.

:)

jin

js33
11-11-2003, 02:28 AM
Well Jin I agree Modeler probably needs updating at some point soon but Layout was/is in need of updating more than modeler right now so that is where the focus is. I've not done much character animation but it is very popular now and something I want to get into more. So for me 8 looks exactly like what I need for now. Once the new team gets into a workflow they will be able to address other concerns but I think they are addressing the right things at this point.

Cheers,
JS

j3st3r
11-11-2003, 03:30 AM
I`m with Jin.

But I`m sure, that most things are kept secret because of Luxology. I asked Brad what about modo, he sent me few infos, for example, that it will be released in 2004 Q1. I think Newtek really listen to their clients. That`s why they made changes to modeller (although they mentioned, that there won`t be any changes (OK, Lee mentioned that as part of Newtek)). I`m pretty sure, that few modo features will be included in LW8.

I don`t care about that LW8 contains many well known freeware, or payware plugins, if they INTEGRATED. That`s the key element. Many plugins doesn`t care each other. If they included with LW like before, it`s problem. If they were INTEGRATED it would worth the money and the time.

As for game devs. I`m working on Terminator: War of the Machines game. I`m honest, when I say, that LW is perfect for take part of our pipeline as modeling tool, but it`s not suitable for our complete job. Our main horse is maya, with it`s lacks, and bugs, but it has those advantages what we miss from LW. I wrote it many times, what are the key elements, that are NOT in Lightwave, so I don`t waste the space here. LW has very good capabilities, and I hope that NT will use those capabilities

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
people say thngs offhandedly and it sticks. i distinctly remember someone from the development community saying that they're not doing much for modeler cuz it's good enough.

that is an ACTUAL attitude that newtek had.



Maybe someone from development said that but I'm sure that it is not Newtek's stance as a whole. Chuck had assured us around the time that 8 was announced that development on modeler would be ongoing. I guess we should know soon enough, how much work on modeler has been done for 8. I'd be happy with some improvements in modeler in a 8.X release.
But I have to agree wtih js33 in that Layout certainly could use a much more needed kick in the a$s then modeler if you're speaking priorities on the whole of course.

Alliante
11-11-2003, 09:41 AM
Maybe someone from development said that but I'm sure that it is not Newtek's stance as a whole.

That's why there are Developers and Project Managers.

Two entirely different roles and two entirely different stances on their jobs.

Good Call, HRGiger :)

Chuck
11-11-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
and also, the whole lw8 campaign STARTED leaving a bad taste in my mouth. the early emphasis on the MERE COSMETICS of the interface (no functional, structural changes mind you that lw is indeed in need of... JUST COSMETICS) just made me leap out of my chair and scream 'WTF?!' the very last thing that needed addressing comes screaming out of the depths as if of prime importance.

blech.

There was really no intent ever to give that undue emphasis - we just mentioned it in passing, and also posted a sample for feedback. Yes, that generated a lot of discussion, both comment on the changes, suggestions, and some folks who do not credit us for having more sense than to get obsessive about the interface at the expense of addressing needed features and performance improvements.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


finally, i don't miss much.

people say thngs offhandedly and it sticks. i distinctly remember someone from the development community saying that they're not doing much for modeler cuz it's good enough.

that is an ACTUAL attitude that newtek had.

I haven't known any of our developers to express any such attitude. I think I recall that Lee Stranahan mentioned that he felt that Modeler is pretty strong and that other areas needed more emphasis at the current cycle, but Lee is not NewTek staff, and I think his comments were construed in ways that went well beyond his intent.


first, that's a completely wrong headed take on modeler and it completely crippled whatever interest i had in an upgrade.

If you were under the misimpression that our developers thought Modeler was so good it didn't need further development, that's understandable. Please rest assured it isn't the case.



i'm a mild personality fellows.

LOL! I'm sorry, not to my observation, Jin... :)


and i would not scream if it seemed more like people were listening. and if it didn't seem like the only time they DO listen is when the disgruntled discord reaches a critical mass. but if that's what it takes....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i also understand that newtek is a small company. but as a small company, they must feedback with results or they must feedback with communication. i understand they can't implement everything that i ask for but then how do i know they're even hearing me if they don't talk back or have public 'to do' lists?


I and other NewTek staff spend a significant part of our time talking to folks. If it isn't enough for you, our apologies. We do the best we can, and we'll keep doing the best we can. That will not include a public to-do list but you can rest assured whether we've responded on a thread or not, we're aware of it.


as for the whole 'COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE' thing, money goes a long way toward cutting edge. that said, newtek is decidedly not cutting edge - and we'll be playing catchup for the forseeable future. so unless they're privvy to siggraph papers that no one else is privvy to, i think the 'C.A.' argument is moot.

seriously, when 8 comes out, you guys tell me if any feature in there benefitted from being kept secret....

jin

Keeping some matters confidential from competitors is only one of the reasons why we don't provide all our planned future developments to the public, but certainly an important one. And there are others, including flexibility about the final definition of the product of a given development cycle.

cresshead
11-11-2003, 10:29 AM
see... newtek are looking and listening...but are mainly taking their time up with actually producing lightewave 8 rather than squabbling about who's camera icon looks best or whatever the latest bandwagoning 3d app has on the spec sheet..i'd sooner see lightwave strike out on it's own distict path rather than play the "me too" game that maya and max do to each other with every point release...having a feature is one thing...the REAL deal is how that feature works as in finished output and just how much hassle you have to go thru to use it in production.


i too feel that the waiting is taking a while and i'd love to see more bit that will be in lightwave 8...but if newtek think that they
and the lightwave users will be in a better position by waiting a little longer and keeping some of their announcments on features of lw8 in their hand..well..it's their business..literally!

i'm sure they know what they are doing....they've been in the 3d business for longer than most 3d vendors out there.

hrgiger
11-11-2003, 11:01 AM
I can appreciate Jin's position though. I personally get what I want out of modeler(ok, mostly) but obviously that's not going to hold true for everyone. I have wanted to see some big improvements in character animation since I picked up Lightwave back in 2001. So I'm pretty tanked for LW8. However, if I were working in video games and I did a lot of work in modeler, I'd be chomping at the bit right now not knowing a thing about all/and or any improvements to the modeler toolset.
I guess I just wanted to reply and say that the impression that I've gotten from Newtek over the last several months is that they're looking to improve Lightwave in all areas and not just Layout. It's just good to hear Chuck echo that sentiment. You can't please everyone so hopefully Lightwave 8 will have at least a little bit of something for all of us...

badllarma
11-11-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by cresshead


i'm sure they know what they are doing....they've been in the 3d business for longer than most 3d vendors out there.

well said that man!

lets just wait and see, something tells me we will all get a lttle suprise when it is released:D And of course those who have taken the plunge already still have DFX to play with while we are waiting:) , that we got for free:D

jin choung
11-11-2003, 09:30 PM
howdy all, howdy chuck,

actually chuck, your entrance into this discussion at this point kinda proves my point. the screaming, bitching and moaning seems to have to reach a certain crescendo before someone says anything about issues that newtek does not feel like talking about! and that's why i end up being as shrill as i seem... alas.

and look, i'm not unrealistic - i know that you guys can't be everywhere and address everything.

but modeler really really has been an information black hole. you guys don't talk about it. at all! AT ALL!!!

combine that with no affirmation that it is being addressed AS fervently as layout, combine that with the early (mistaken) impressions, combine that with certain statements, and all of a sudden, i'm wondering why i'm not paying for HALF AN UPGRADE.

again, i understand that you guys can't be everything to everyone. you're not god and you're not omnipresent... but unfortunately, in this case, you guys haven't addressed ANYTHING that i care about and work with on a daily basis.

so perhaps in the future, doling out a little bit to a wide array of interests may prove for a happier family.

jin

p.s. hmmm, somebody brought up modo and so i guess that might be a reason to keep modeler so hush hush... you gotta keep the edge over the guys who just jumped ship and are doing the same thing. aha! i didn't think of that.

but then, wouldn't it have been easier to just say that??!

colkai
11-12-2003, 03:02 AM
Jin,
I can see that your ticked off because none of your particular needs have been addressed. However, do you not think that it comes across somewhat strange to think that Newtek should be addressing your issues specifically?

What about all those that have clamoured for better CA tools? Many has been the thread over the last year demanding these, so when they are introduced, what happens? Answer, someone else demands that their needs are being neglected.

I've been working in the software game for over 25 years, I can state quite catagorically, decisions have to be made given timescales, feasibility, resources and budget.

Maybe, (and this is just a guess mind you), the code required to do the changes you fervently desire, are more complex and so need to be given more time, say 8.5 vs 8.0?

Also, given the resultant barrage at Newtek for what they *haven't* done (in the users eyes), based on a PARTIAL list of new features, can you imagine the furoure (sp?) if they released a full list and individual desires were not on it.

It really is, as folks have said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

When all is said and done, I guess you are already making money with the current version of LW, regardless of frustrations and limitations, so you don't need to upgrade in that respect if it seems to hold nothing for you.
Maybe 8.XX will do, then you can make a choice, until then, we all have to wait and see. But we should not let the fact that the upgrade may not be all we desire turn in to a perception that, all of a sudden, LW has ceased to work, or has strangely become redundant overnight.

I do appreciate that your needs are not being filled, really, but you have to ask yourself, if you bought any other software package, would you be so vocal about it?
If you made your money in the DTP market and the software wasn't up to your standard, would you resignedly accept that there was little you could do about it.

Of course, you are a strong-minded individual, (to which hurrah! not enough of us around), so probably not ;)

At least the talk here is passionate, not indifferent, that really would be a crime.

Love it, loathe it, but at least you don't ignore it!

Anyways - this thread has wandered way off topic so I will bow out now.
To Chuck et al.. Sorry, it wasn't my intention for it to head this way, I just was hoping for a rallying cry, but it didn't turn out that way. :(

jin choung
11-12-2003, 03:53 AM
hey colkai,

well, newtek certainly can't fault you. you did your resolute, heroic best to make it a rallying cry... sorry to be the monkey wrench... :)

i'm not so conceited as to think that they should address ME.... it's just that i'm under the firm conviction that if it is important to me, it is by definition important to everyone.

:P i'm only partially joking though... the issues i rally for tend to be pretty relevant to the subjects they address (modeling, uv mapping, etc) and when i generalize by saying 'i' or 'my', i'm just using shorthand for the community....

i do really really understand that newtek is a small outfit with limited funds and limited manpower. i really get it.

but this time, it was just the combination of factors that raised my ire.

yes, they should address CA and it's good that they have decided too. even though it's not my bread and butter now (i HAD to do all anims in maya), i've argued for reforms there as well. but if they're going to issue press releases and such, it IS REASONABLY DISTRESSING that they did not mention MODELER FEATURES AT ALL! it's not their lack of resources that i fault them on... just the CHOICES that they chose to make.

again, i've been enlightened - it's probably because they want to stick it to modo - got it.

but in light of being so conspicuously unmentioned, they should have addressed modeler in some fashion.

anyhoo, i love newtek and lightwave. always have, always will. lightwave is great even now and i wouldn't be here saying anything if that weren't true.

but yah, i'm not the type to sandwich every gripe with 'hooray for our team'.

jin

p.s. there have been episodes where i really rah rah'd and even defended newtek and their decisions when i felt that they were being attacked for what i felt were irrational reasons - calls for being more forthright about the lux debacle is probably the most recent.

but this time, i really do think i have a legit gripe....

j3st3r
11-12-2003, 04:59 AM
jin,

I`m with you. And I`m with newtek also. Few weeks, and we will see, what is in LW8. I`m sure, there would be surprises in modeller as well. I`m sure newtek reacts to the "modo threat" aka "the phantom menace". Although I`m afraid that my most used plugins (Ikeda Powertools, Dstorm`s Edgetools) won`t work with the new LW.

And one more thing. LW8 was declared as the Next Generation of LW. It was not a misread, missuspection or any misblahblah, it was declared. It`s obvious that there are folks, who feel disappointed.

Chuck
11-12-2003, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
howdy all, howdy chuck,

actually chuck, your entrance into this discussion at this point kinda proves my point. the screaming, bitching and moaning seems to have to reach a certain crescendo before someone says anything about issues that newtek does not feel like talking about! and that's why i end up being as shrill as i seem... alas.

I disagree. I think it proves that when I take a few days off to visit with family that I haven't seen in a couple of years who have come to visit, at the same time that William is offline to prepare a seminar and is then in transit, that things will go ballistic in our absence, guaranteed. In all the years I've been participating online, invariably if I have a few days out for any reason then somebody decides NewTek doesn't communicate any more and goes - er, uh, "shrill". ;)


and look, i'm not unrealistic - i know that you guys can't be everywhere and address everything.

but modeler really really has been an information black hole. you guys don't talk about it. at all! AT ALL!!!

combine that with no affirmation that it is being addressed AS fervently as layout, combine that with the early (mistaken) impressions, combine that with certain statements, and all of a sudden, i'm wondering why i'm not paying for HALF AN UPGRADE.

again, i understand that you guys can't be everything to everyone. you're not god and you're not omnipresent... but unfortunately, in this case, you guys haven't addressed ANYTHING that i care about and work with on a daily basis.

so perhaps in the future, doling out a little bit to a wide array of interests may prove for a happier family.

Actually we plan to dole out a lot to a wide array of interests, but a given area of interest may get more or less emphasis at a particular time for a particular release, for now as the new team ramps up. There has been a lot of demand for a long time for better character tools, and yes we are emphasizing that area in this release both in development and in public relations. We are in fact also working on enhancements to all other areas of the program and we have said so, many times already. That includes enhancements to Modeler, and we've said so, many times. We haven't provided specifics, but traditionally we don't until release. We've varied from that a bit this time, and frankly it will probably take some time to evaluate whether that was the better course, and if it was, how to adjust in future for even better results.

Chuck
11-12-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
Although I`m afraid that my most used plugins (Ikeda Powertools, Dstorm`s Edgetools) won`t work with the new LW.

They will work just fine, I can assure you. :)

jin choung
11-12-2003, 07:59 AM
hiya chuck,

i believe you when you say that you guys have said development over the entirety of lw is continuing apace along with modeler.

it's just that i've never read them!

granted, unless you guys were gonna publicly commit to or reject any of the specific features and requests that a bunch of us make in our 'reform' threads, i don't imagine there would be much point in hanging around there in terms of p.r. ....

but my take on the situation has been thus far - 'ah, announcements... cool. oh, lots of layout stuff... hmmm. no mention of modeler... at all... aha....'

now what could that mean? either, they haven't at this point done anything in modeler worth mentioning... or they don't plan to change modeler much.... p.r. is about flash and sizzle and we got no flash and sizzle for modeler so let's just leave it out.

wrong or right, i believe that there IS a reason for why layout was plugged so much and modeler not. my take really is that you guys needed some glitz at siggy and nothing in modeler was being attended to at that time - and more or less disgruntled rumblings about that kinda shaped the development destiny of modeler. shrug.

lightwave is a divided app. wrong or right, if you ONLY list features for one of the apps, the wheels start a-turnin'.

actually, there would CERTAINLY be no furor (i believe that's the spelling) there is now if NOTHING was said at all about what was coming.

whenever newtek has said they will be mum in a reasonable way, i have ALWAYS respected that. it is your prerogative. i may ask and beg but not grumble.

but laying out the table for the layout app and not listing a SINGLE BLESSED THING about modeler... that's not a policy that sets minds at ease.

so i implore you guys, DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN...

stay mum on the whole shebang if you must. but don't ONLY open a buffet of info on one app and just IGNORE the other app altogether.

jin

hrgiger
11-12-2003, 09:16 AM
I would agree with that philosophy Jin. As I said, I'm more interested in the changes in Layout, but I do want to hear changes about Lightwave as a program, and that means modeler too.

Of course, I can see the reasoning behind keeping modeler on the hush hush as Lux is about to release their competing modeler.

But mostly, I'd like to think that the reason modeler is being kept on the down-low is that there are a few nice new features that aren't quite finished and NT wants to keep quiet until they can be sure they can deliver them within the timeframe that they laid out for the 4th quarter this year. Say for instance, 3D paint, edges, nurbs, etc.... Referring back to the poll that I started earlier this year: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=916 a 3D paint solution is the number 2 request for LW8, very close behind improved softbodies (which we are getting in 8). Newtek says they were watching that poll with interest earlier this year, I say let's hope so.

comanche
11-12-2003, 09:41 AM
Hopefully NT doesn't waste a single minute to code a 3D painter and does focus on other things. There a two usefull 3d paint applications out there.

That's just my opinion. :p

Cheers,
Andreas

Exper
11-12-2003, 09:45 AM
Scary Thread! ;)

Can we wait another couple of months and put our hands on [8]?
Maybe... no... (so it seems) :(

Jin...
NT is working good right now: they're working!
I'm personally waiting more surprises than the announced ones! :D

Cheers!

Bye.

hrgiger
11-12-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by comanche
Hopefully NT doesn't waste a single minute to code a 3D painter and does focus on other things. There a two usefull 3d paint applications out there.

That's just my opinion. :p

Cheers,
Andreas

Well, there's at least 124 people(in the poll) who would probably disagree with you but that's ok, to each his own.
I realize that there are a few 3D painting apps out there but for one, they're expensive, at least for one of the decent ones. Secondly, I've heard from a few people that have some compatibility issues as far as from painting app to Lightwave.
It'd be nice to have something integrated into Lightwave. Even some basic functionality would be nice like Maya's 3D painter effects.

KillMe
11-12-2003, 04:27 PM
in a way i agree with jin - it does not putmy mind at easy taht we have had layout screenys and toldquite abit about it yet modeler kept all quiet and teh fewscreensy have had all the tool abrs etc cropped from the image

now that coudl mean they are hiding a lack of significant change or they are hiding a significant change form competition

hard to say which isn't it or maybe its the modelers deveolpers that are shy =)

as for 3d paint that would be nice indeed now paint effects would be awesome too i installed maya ple and its the one thing that i thought wow thats cool i want it

sketchyjay
11-12-2003, 04:35 PM
Hmmm... HRGiger how much would you grumble if a dozen features of modeler came out and none for Layout? I think that is what Jin is getting at. Basicly be fair and give a little of each or none at all.



I feel the next version has to be better than the current version so I purchased the upgrade. I've yet to install the DFX software so my faith is solely in improvements to Lightwave.

I also agree that with a new team in place that it will take them time to familiarize themselves with the code, make fixes and add new features. I am looking at the long term investment up to 8.9 as the team gets up to speed and can really make the code their own.



Jin: Making lots of little improvements seems to be what you( or was it someone else) complained about with half working tools. They need to focus on one section get all teh tools working right then move on to the next section and get all THOSE tools working. If they got the dynamics a new interface but didn't add dynamics to teh bones then there would be grumbling at a half done job. If they added dynamics to the boines and kept the current interface for dynamics there would really be grumbling.



I just think they need to focus on one section at a time and make sure everything in there is intergrated correctly. Hell if they added a few new plugins to modeler it would be the same old story. But if they focus on Splines or poly tools, and make sure all of it was intergrated and worked as advertised then we'd see a whole new workflow appear and I'm sure everyone would be happy.

I think we all just have to hang tough till they made a complete pass through the entire app before we pass judgement.

A Paint plug in LW. I'd enjoy it. Even if it was just to fix UV seams and make sure distortion was removed.

Chuck: It seams they are right. with the entire user base able to speak out you are damned if you do and damned if you dont. It's like that old saying you can make some of the people happy some of the time... well the unhappy some just scream louder while all the happy some sit back content. I think the internet will forever be an ocean of discontent that companies will have to dip into to resolve as many wishes as they can, which will never be enough. So I'd like to add my vote of appreciation to you guys for all the hard work you guys are doing while having stones thrown at you.

BTW How do you guys deal with all of this venom on a daily basis. I'd quit my job and go live up in the woods away from computers if I had to deal with this :) , wow you guys are tough.

Sorry for all the random analogies... really tired and brain is on a stream of conciousness kind of ramble...

Oh and any names I mentioned don't take this whole post as directed at you I kind of put down all my thoughts and put names in were a paragraph kind of was a reply to it.

Peace all,

Jay

hrgiger
11-12-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by sketchyjay
[B]Hmmm... HRGiger how much would you grumble if a dozen features of modeler came out and none for Layout? I think that is what Jin is getting at. Basicly be fair and give a little of each or none at all.




I would probably grumble quite a bit if a dozen features came out for modeler but not for Layout. However, that's not what's happening and I don't think modeler is being left out either so I think Jin is sort of giving us a pre-emptive grumble since we don't know what modeler features will be in 8 yet. However, I already admitted that if there were no features that I wanted announced for 8 yet, I would be grumbling as Jin is. I think I've given him his credit.
I agree with you Sketchjay in that this is mostly a new team of developers and I think they're getting themselves in deep with Lightwave and I think it will take them some time to sort things out and move in the direction they'd like to go. I'm ready to be anywhere from just plain pleased to downright thrilled with Lightwave8 but I'm also willing to be patient enough to see what kind of things the 8.x releases will bring us...

dglenn
11-12-2003, 05:18 PM
Have Faith Ye All!
Lightwave 8 will be good and there will be much rejoicing. :D
Well will yield or new found Axes in harmony and draw new and exciting worlds.
And there will be many accolades showered upon us from our pears and many fans, that will phrase or many victories!
And there will be more rejoicing!
Nothing can go Wrong!
Click!
...go Wrong!
Click!
...go Wrong!
Click!
...go Wrong!
Click!
...go Wrong!
:D
So relax and Enjoy!

KillMe
11-12-2003, 05:46 PM
i expect there ahs been some work done on modeler but i expect nothign will eb groundbreaking

more of cleaning up of all the bits and pieces, fixing old tools to work abit better, maybe afew minor new tools maybe intergrating or copying some of the plugs availble.

while edges and 3d painting would be nice i think we will have to wait to at least 8.5 maybe 9 for that. but dont loose hope lightave modeler even in 7.5 is superior to the others so even a minor improvement will be a bonus

jin choung
11-12-2003, 08:01 PM
http://www.terabit.nildram.co.uk/tattoo/

we would be lucky to get a newtek coded 3d paint solution that's half as functional as the above.

less than $50 and it's pretty much all i expect i'll ever need. i don't need and i don't want a 3d app to try to be photoshop. i'll just use photoshop....

something to do initial markup, do seams, etc... that's pretty much all i need....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and regardless of what newtek ACTUALLY does about modeler, i'm just saying it was dumb as hell to go about publicity like this.

jin

p.s. a simple 'we have just as many modeler upgrades that we are working on but you'll have to wait to hear about those!' when the initial p.r. blitz about layout came out WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH.

but the hush hush ignoring that modeler existed was more than a little unnerving.

hrgiger
11-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by jin choung

less than $50 and it's pretty much all i expect i'll ever need. i don't need and i don't want a 3d app to try to be photoshop. i'll just use photoshop....



Now if only Photosho imported lwo....;)

sketchyjay
11-12-2003, 11:00 PM
Yeah that's it!

Lets give Newtek a break and hope over to the adobe forum to gripe about the lack of support for any 3d formats in Photoshop!

Hell lack of support for 128bit images is a REAL Pain. How many of us have to use Gimp to work on these files. I do...

Where's Proton when we need him to post another new piece of content or screenshot.
Jay

hrgiger
11-12-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by sketchyjay
[B]Yeah that's it!

Lets give Newtek a break and hope over to the adobe forum to gripe about the lack of support for any 3d formats in Photoshop!



Already done my man....

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13718

siproductions
11-13-2003, 11:45 AM
I second that Oliver.:)

animotion
11-13-2003, 03:10 PM
Chuck, Proton and the whole NT team deserve a pat on the back, or better yet they deserve an uprade purchase from us all. LW8 will be much better and I purchased my upgrade weeks ago.

The way I see it we (my studio) will continue to use LW and if it is not able to do what I need I will use other tools to get the job done. NT keep up the improvements and I will keep up the upgrades. And by the way thank you for DF+, more tools in my shed.

Hervé
11-13-2003, 11:12 PM
I'll upgrade as soon it's on the market, promess !!

Meanwhile, yes thanks NT and all.... but could we remove that bad bad title thread, and replace it with a LW8, killa app or something... more marketing....

Cheers
dont make it available before Xmas, it would be a nice gift....

Hervé