PDA

View Full Version : Fix hypervoxels!



shrox
03-26-2013, 02:00 PM
113046

zapper1998
03-26-2013, 02:49 PM
+1

shrox
03-26-2013, 03:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6PZhONZ3Ac

Cageman
03-26-2013, 03:38 PM
After listening to that for about 1 minute... I could hear 3 different things:

Fix it! (obviously)
Byxer (which is, in some parts of Sweden, the "spoken language" for byxor, which means trousers).
Zip it!

:D

shrox
03-26-2013, 04:00 PM
After listening to that for about 1 minute... I could hear 3 different things:

Fix it! (obviously)
Byxer (which is, in some parts of Sweden, the "spoken language" for byxor, which means trousers).
Zip it!

:D

Pixel
Physics
If you listen close, you can Lela saying "For gosh sakes, fix hypervoxels so this idiot will shut up!...love you Fry."

prometheus
03-26-2013, 04:54 PM
haha..shrox ..youré one annoying little rascal areīt you, good to have such folks around to be a pain in the ...until itīs Fixed though.
Reminds me of Andy Dufresne in shawshank redemption, sending mail to state library asking for books and never gave up on that until the books arrived.

Well Im following your lead as another annoying dude, ranting about fix hypervoxels.

Michael

probiner
03-26-2013, 05:07 PM
pizza
pizza
pizza

where's the 10 hour version? :D

I like remix better though, ehehe

Anyway good luck. I don't use HV, but occasionally read the threads about the pain :)

prometheus
03-26-2013, 05:25 PM
mostly just not been updated for ages..except for a few unexplainable improvements that donīt seem to do squat and hvīs falling behind compared to modo right now it seems.

distance between particle gradients for scale ..dissolving, thickness,density and most channels possible is needed to remove puffs where particles are few and breaks away, this would
also improve immensly on liquid look.
particle density ..similar to distance between particles perhaps...simply put where particles are gathered and where there is a lot of particle density, you should be able to control
density of voxels to adapt and dissolve where there are little density.

Waterpools a complete mystery and such functions should relocate in to the hypervoxels tab to controll it..not live mysteriously in the deform tab.
That also goes for how you activate color and weightmap in a different menu if you would like to set a specific weight map density for hypervoxels before you control it with gradients, why on earth not put it to be controlled and assigned within the hypervoxels main menu?, I know it is per object basis..but would be smoother to have control within hypervoxels menu
since you activate it anyway per object basis in the menu.

hypervoxels on geometry item as modo done it would be a way to go, not only points or particles.
hypervoxels with depth shadow map, and add mie illumination method.
hypervoxels with a true tension blending for volume mode, (see old dynamite blending)
hypervoxels with a better openGL presentation (see old dynamite or afterburner for max)

Strange..was about to link to afterworks and sitni satni afterburner and the feature page, but got a trojan horse warning from avast when trying to acess that page.

Michael


I got more, but this will keep them busy anyway)

Michael

shrox
03-26-2013, 05:57 PM
mostly just not been updated for ages..except for a few unexplainable improvements that donīt seem to do squat and hvīs falling behind compared to modo right now it seems.

distance between particle gradients for scale ..dissolving, thickness,density and most channels possible is needed to remove puffs where particles are few and breaks away, this would
also improve immensly on liquid look.
particle density ..similar to distance between particles perhaps...simply put where particles are gathered and where there is a lot of particle density, you should be able to control
density of voxels to adapt and dissolve where there are little density.

Waterpools a complete mystery and such functions should relocate in to the hypervoxels tab to controll it..not live mysteriously in the deform tab.
That also goes for how you activate color and weightmap in a different menu if you would like to set a specific weight map density for hypervoxels before you control it with gradients, why on earth not put it to be controlled and assigned within the hypervoxels main menu?, I know it is per object basis..but would be smoother to have control within hypervoxels menu
since you activate it anyway per object basis in the menu.

hypervoxels on geometry item as modo done it would be a way to go, not only points or particles.
hypervoxels with depth shadow map, and add mie illumination method.
hypervoxels with a true tension blending for volume mode, (see old dynamite blending)
hypervoxels with a better openGL presentation (see old dynamite or afterburner for max)

Strange..was about to link to afterworks and sitni satni afterburner and the feature page, but got a trojan horse warning from avast when trying to acess that page.

Michael


I got more, but this will keep them busy anyway)

Michael

I'll make the noise if you'll guide the effort. I'd bet Mr. Rid could be of help too in specific tweaks as well, between the two of you most everyone's concerns and wanted features could be addressed.

prometheus
03-26-2013, 06:03 PM
I'll make the noise if you'll guide the effort. I'd bet Mr. Rid could be of help too in specific tweaks as well, between the two of you most everyone's concerns and wanted features could be addressed.

Sounds fair enough, I actually have a mindmap of my Prometheus compendium pdf for a list of features and important changes for Lightwave that I had in mind to put up when I finish it, but it is extensive a lot of work
to make it appealing graphicly, might be enough with gathering the most important things and present them nicely.

If Mr Rid doesnīt jump in here, we could bump him and see if he got the time to chime in on the things to do list.

prometheus
03-27-2013, 11:45 AM
Now everything isnīt explosions that hypervoxels are good for, and generally the focus from using hvīs for explosions might have leaned towards turbulenceFD.
I still think a lot of cool explosion stuff, can be used with procedural voxel techniques.

Afterworks sitni satniīs Afterburner was used for armageddon and also for that cool Matrix reloaded truck collision scene where Morpheus and the keymaker is rescued by Neo.
Afterburner seems to offer better noise control, metablending(not sure of that) and also have distortion explosion deamons which I do not know how it works.

Afterburner also offers openGL representation of the round filled spherical volume size/particle size, In hypervoxels we only have some spherical ghosting outline which doesnt
give a good sense of the whole volume trailing, now with the old Dynamite plugin from cantarcan we actually have,had that and it is very helpful showcasing the actual shape of the particle trails and also temperature.
1.43 in the clip..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95FbitaBT8

So basicly there is a few Dynamite features that I would like to see stealed and make it in to hypervoxels, the very first being the same metaball tension blend(lightwaveīs recently added volume blend isnīt behaving anything near that)

The second ..openGl representation, The third...implement a fireshader, Thereīs several more features from the ol Dynamite plugin that could be researched and implemented if possible that is, Ill get back on those, and that is only for the particle/voxel engine..forget about fluid since Turbulence take care of that.
There was and still is some issues with dynamite for those that has it though, but the fireshader was very nice at least and the lite version was free before it vanished.

Improving Hvīs and analyze sitni satni afterburner and the old dynamite plugin could if done right have a strong selling incitament, since it is an additional extra cost for max users, where
it in such case would be included nativly in Lightwave.

Dont get me wrong..I both Love..And hate hypervoxels, hate it because the lack of attention and those extra added features would be the sweetness of it all, making it top notch and very usable.

Reference afterburner here...(I mailed sitni about the viruswarning on their site, and he fixed that now, should be safe)
http://www.afterworks.com/AfterBurn.asp

Michael

TheDynamo
03-27-2013, 12:34 PM
Wow, you're a regular "Fixit Shrox" :)

shrox
03-29-2013, 11:24 PM
I am a cooking something up...

lwanmtr
04-03-2013, 03:06 PM
Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!

HV was great and ahead of its time (when it was released), hovever, It really badly has needed to be updated for a loooooooong time now. So, while I'm not going to +1 it...I'll +100 lol.

prometheus
04-03-2013, 03:50 PM
I need to find that small anim gif sample of two emitters showcasing the difference with and without distance between particle options ...I think Mr Rid posted it here somewhere on the forums first.
and maybe erikals reposted it somewhere, I did a quick search but canīt relocate it really.

I would like to have that and then I put that together with som other stuff in a pdf doc with some things I think would be great for future enhanced hypervoxels, hopefully while we are
discussing it..newtek could spend that time actually improving it..with the basics already mentioned.

So if you guys seen and now about that small anim gif example..please post it here again.

Michael

shrox
04-03-2013, 04:07 PM
113276

This plus a cotton ball and your message is ready to be sent to:

NewTek, Inc.
Attn: Customer Service
5131 Beckwith Blvd.
San Antonio, TX 78249

Write "HV" in the lower left hand corner of the envelope too.

prometheus
04-03-2013, 04:27 PM
113276

This plus a cotton ball and your message is ready to be sent to:

NewTek, Inc.
Attn: Customer Service
5131 Beckwith Blvd.
San Antonio, TX 78249

Write "HV" in the lower left hand corner of the envelope too.

Ah...LOL, that might be to much and extensive for them to take in and read:)
Besides..some of the dev team might Like cotton balls,

Michael

torturebori007
04-04-2013, 07:49 AM
Thats was great made me laugh like a mofo

ivanze
04-04-2013, 10:48 AM
113276

This plus a cotton ball and your message is ready to be sent to:

NewTek, Inc.
Attn: Customer Service
5131 Beckwith Blvd.
San Antonio, TX 78249

Write "HV" in the lower left hand corner of the envelope too.

lol!!!

shrox
04-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Hail
04-04-2013, 12:31 PM
+1!
PIXels!!:D
I mean fix it:)

shrox
04-04-2013, 01:12 PM
What?

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

When?

Now!

Now!

Now!

Now!

Now!

(A definitive action statement.)

prometheus
04-04-2013, 01:28 PM
I canīt find the darn thing...
I am still searching for the small anim gif posted by Mr Rid originally showcasing two fountain particle stream examples ..one with and one without the distance between particle gradient that is lacking in Lw, if anyone knows what the heck Im talking about and where it is.please repost it


I happened to stumble on to this post from me a while ago, might put that in to my pdf doc too.


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104544&stc=1&d=1337783492

113311

erikals
04-04-2013, 02:26 PM
the Orackle is here... >
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ietmqz76vh.mov

also check, Hypervoxels, the Battle >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?121260-Hypervoxels-the-Battle

prometheus
04-04-2013, 03:15 PM
the Orackle is here... >
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ietmqz76vh.mov

also check, Hypervoxels, the Battle >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?121260-Hypervoxels-the-Battle


Thanks erikals, thatīs the one, though I thought there was an animated gif,maybe there was..
Anyway I can convert it to that or bake the mov in to the pdf doc as well.

Ahh.the battle, have to check that again.

1 million limit is removed anyway, donīt know how much we actually
can render..donīt think anyone dare to test it.

The issue with that is the memory handling of such amount of particles..so above 1 million it starts
to slow down the system and you have to wait a bit before they sett..I think 3 millions of particles is what I can wait for..up to 6 and 8 millions..then it starts
to be painstakingly slow, but it is anyway good that they removed or increased that limit so to speak.
The rendering (of tiny sprites) is not the big issue rather the particle handling and simulation cooking.

Ps..it aint really fix hypervoxels, but particles and Hypervoxels are so tight like my buttocks halves, that they are dependent on each other.

Edit...the forum goes wonky again with extreme timouts I have noticed the latest day....Fixit..Fixit.

Michael

shrox
04-04-2013, 11:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWi7CLoZ2Q

shrox
04-04-2013, 11:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=17o1OlroNSE

shrox
04-12-2013, 12:38 PM
I like big poly counts I cannot lie,

Like that detail, my render looks fly.

I pen a song about da phong

But hypervoxels make me cry.


Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

prometheus
04-12-2013, 12:47 PM
I like big poly counts I cannot lie,

Like that detail, my render looks fly.

I pen a song about da phong

But hypervoxels make me cry.


Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Anything to keep this thread alive and in the face of the dev team:)

lwanmtr
04-12-2013, 02:07 PM
I like big poly counts I cannot lie,

Like that detail, my render looks fly.

I pen a song about da phong

But hypervoxels make me cry.


Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!

Fix it!


Erhm.... Dont quit yer day job...lol

shrox
04-12-2013, 03:29 PM
Erhm.... Dont quit yer day job...lol

I wish I had a day job to quit.

lwanmtr
04-12-2013, 04:05 PM
Lol...you and me both.

prometheus
04-13-2013, 07:32 AM
I wish I had a day job to quit.


Lol...you and me both.

And you can count me in on that too...along with the fix it..fix it.

Michael

shrox
04-13-2013, 09:42 AM
I went online at a certain time and found myself in limbo...

L-I-M-B-O

L-I-M-B-O

L-I-M-B-O

It was Newtek forum limbo!

erikals
04-13-2013, 10:09 AM
Ogo Taiki Blending >
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW0ImR2zZ9M#t=5m50s
cranking up the AA could maybe give a good result

prometheus
04-13-2013, 08:11 PM
Ogo Taiki Blending >
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW0ImR2zZ9M#t=5m50s
cranking up the AA could maybe give a good result

Ah...thatīs maybe a different beast, a thread for skytracer fix it, blinking at shrox:)
donīt know since I donīt have any full version of ogo taiki, tried some demos long time ago, and I so wanted it to replace skytracer and working much better interactivly than ozone etc..
just that the UI need overhaul, and setting up air must be easer, and reduce quality settings to be easier to handle.

hereīs a quick mock up screen shots of hypevoxels blending and none blending, and this is all in volume mode, not surface.
images below are the old gone Dynamite blending modes, that is sphere (no blend) and metaball blend.

I have a few more images to extract and compile from a few features there, like opengl visibility, fireshader maybe and along with distance between particle gradient sample mov to mix in to a pdf doc later, soon perhaps and we got a nice serious doc to stick in the forehead on the dev team:)


Michael

shrox
04-27-2013, 10:43 PM
113969

http://mcphee.com/shop/horse-mask-and-smoking-jacket-combo.html

erikals
04-28-2013, 02:52 AM
that horse needs to quit smoking...

jwiede
04-28-2013, 05:19 AM
Ps..it aint really fix hypervoxels, but particles and Hypervoxels are so tight like my buttocks halves, that they are dependent on each other.
Some metaphors are better left unsaid.

P.S. Nail polish remover works wonders on superglue.

jwiede
04-28-2013, 05:26 AM
hereīs a quick mock up screen shots of hypevoxels blending and none blending, and this is all in volume mode, not surface.
images below are the old gone Dynamite blending modes, that is sphere (no blend) and metaball blend.

I have a few more images to extract and compile from a few features there, like opengl visibility, fireshader maybe and along with distance between particle gradient sample mov to mix in to a pdf doc later, soon perhaps and we got a nice serious doc to stick in the forehead on the dev team:)
Basically, incorporate everything Dynamite added, more or less. Did anyone ever find out what happened to Can? Even though I have Turbulence (and Effex, and RealFlow LE) I still deeply miss how quick some things could be set up in Dynamite. I still drop back to v9 sometimes just to use Dynamite.

erikals
04-28-2013, 05:37 AM
not sure what happened to him...

Can Tarcan was pretty difficult to get a hold of 5 years back, i would assume it would be near impossible to get a hold of him now, unfortunately...

prometheus
04-28-2013, 08:00 AM
Basically, incorporate everything Dynamite added, more or less. Did anyone ever find out what happened to Can? Even though I have Turbulence (and Effex, and RealFlow LE) I still deeply miss how quick some things could be set up in Dynamite. I still drop back to v9 sometimes just to use Dynamite.

Do you really have to switch back to lightwave 9 to use it?
I thought it should work with lw 11.5 even, tested some lite versions ..had some crash issues with it on multiparented emitters and the metaball blending, maybe it is the dongle ID if youre using the pro-version that stops it working with 11.5?

There was a few issues with it though that was a little worse than ordinary hypervoxels, I felt that the render speed in many cases was slower, and the noise functions turbulence,perlin has a weird angular representation in that shows up in the render too, the fast cell smoke noise I liked and would like to have similar for hypervoxels, sure you could use native lightwave procedural textures with the dynamite volumetrics...but man that wasnīt workable, extremly slow.

I definitly would want hypervoxels shading tab intact mostly if improved, but extracting the best from the likes of dynamite, a seperate fireshader tab for instance..but keep the other old one intact.


The former president...is he still on Newtek by the way? ( Jay Roth ) answered me after I had questioned why they didnīt contact cantarcan...he said that they too couldnīt get hold of him..so they seem to have wanted some cooperation there.

I didnīt get any information anywhere on what happened, was worried something happened to cantarcan personally or in the family that wasnīt good, but I have no clue.
You might think such a talented coder would jump on to other things that also would show up in other software at least, but nothing it seems.
If he just left..but still had the means of communicating at that time, then I think it was rotten of him if that was the case..not notifiying anyone about it.

I hope the Lightwave team has or will hire some talented coder with very good knowledge of volumetric handlers, it isnīt just hypervoxels that needs fixing, the whole environment volumetrics needs a boost too I think, a proper volumetric true_sunlight, a true volumetric fog model, and cloud procedural infinite textured volumetric layers...sort of like ogo taiki.
And hopefully they look deeper in to implement OpenVDB since itīs open source.
http://www.openvdb.org/

Michael

erikals
04-28-2013, 12:56 PM
i think NT contacted this guy 6 months ago, on my request, what the outcome was, i have no idea.
probably it got abandoned, as it's such a long time ago since the tests, 2005. you never know though...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq22dmrEDpM

shrox
04-28-2013, 01:08 PM
Of course it would take a picture of Creepy Horse Mask to get the ball rolling...how could I have been so slow to get that?

robertoortiz
04-28-2013, 06:47 PM
i think NT contacted this guy 6 months ago, on my request, what the outcome was, i have no idea.
probably it got abandoned, as it's such a long time ago since the tests, 2005. you never know though...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq22dmrEDpM

Wow that is really cool.

Any updates on this?
-R

erikals
04-28-2013, 07:08 PM
no, not sure if NT got a hold of him... it's anyone's guess...

jasonwestmas
04-28-2013, 07:13 PM
Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,

prometheus
04-29-2013, 07:20 AM
Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,Replace It!,

with what?

hypervoxels is very easy to get going with I think and to preview, it just needs fixing and additional features...shadow maps(see afterburner), openGL enhancement previews (see dynamite opengl), fireshader (see dynamite), metaball blending(see dynamite), volume item or implicit surface polygonal mesh conversion to volume item, and distance between particle gradients on all possible channels. (see houdini or modo)


"Conversion Tools

OpenVDB volumes can be generated robustly and efficiently from polygonal meshes or particles, and can be converted to adaptive meshes, point clouds, signed distance fields or fog volumes."

http://www.openvdb.org/images/example_convert.jpg
http://www.openvdb.org/images/example_liquid.jpg

Michael

jasonwestmas
04-29-2013, 08:08 AM
Right. . . I don't care how HVs improves, just that it needs drastic improvements to be useful for anything other than little puffballs, spark stuff and oatmeal-like substances. It's still stuck in the 90's just like the particle system. I'm sure everyone is aware by now. ;)

v1u1ant
04-30-2013, 12:49 AM
is it fixed yet or what?

prometheus
04-30-2013, 02:19 AM
is it fixed yet or what?

Lol...did you see the Lightwave 12 release somewhere?

erikals
04-30-2013, 06:25 AM
Conversion Tools

OpenVDB volumes can be generated robustly and efficiently from polygonal meshes or particles, and can be converted to adaptive meshes, point clouds, signed distance fields or fog volumes.

http://www.openvdb.org/images/example_convert.jpg

http://www.openvdb.org/images/example_liquid.jpg


Wanted!... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

prometheus
04-30-2013, 06:49 AM
Wanted!... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

yes...that is what I posted too..in the post before my last post, but by all means..we need to repeat such things to imprint it on the lightwave dev team minds.

One thing that might be interesting...I wonder if they simply could create a voxel grid, sort of like turbulence, within hypervoxels where you can set size of container/gid, and also resolution/divisions.

some experiments I did with simple division grids and then array cloning them in the y-axis gives a cube of grids that you can get some interesting results when applying hypervoxels on it, this
is too unefficient going from modeler and trying to find a good setting ratio of such grid, thatīs why it should be done in layout with an interactiv grid so you can set size and divisions directly.
you can sort of do that with subpach grid perhaps...that is sort of an approach id did with some hv clouds before but only a single layer.

Could be sweet if jascha (turbulenceFD) implemented a static grid(think maya fluids got that) so you donīt have to calculate a single frame, you just add the procedural texture to the voxel grid.

But of course..I think the way to go in the end, It would be to start working on the OpenVDB and implement that.

Michael

shrox
04-30-2013, 11:20 AM
Here is a long time problem, I like to use HVs for rocks scattered about a landscape. But this creates artifacts in 9.6+. My recent Apollo Lem image is doing this.

With HVs:
114010

Without HVs:
114011

Look at the black areas by the windows, the texture of the lunar surface changes as well.

prometheus
04-30-2013, 06:00 PM
Here is a long time problem, I like to use HVs for rocks scattered about a landscape. But this creates artifacts in 9.6+. My recent Apollo Lem image is doing this.


Look at the black areas by the windows, the texture of the lunar surface changes as well.

hard to see what you mean here..can you mark the issue?

and these artifacts are the same in lw 11.5? or whatīs the latest you use now?

how many and what types of light are there?

have to set up a scene myself and check.

prometheus
04-30-2013, 06:14 PM
do you use radiosity?
just wondering if you activated volumetric radiosity in the global illumination tab?

Michael

prometheus
04-30-2013, 07:04 PM
a little render warning, it really has nothing to do with voxels..but as I was testing some rocks with hypervoxels this showed up, but I nailed it down to an issue with having
render lines on, I had such issues before but forgot it.
image to the left has small white dot render artifacts, I turned render lines of in the global render tab and to the right it looks okay.
just two domelights, one 90 degree pitch rotation with a 90 angle, and one harder sunlight with domelight angle set to 2...but in space maybe the global dome light should be much much fainter ..hardly noticable
only the sunlight.
no radiosity on the render.

Absolutly unrealistic rocks:) hypervoxels with the ridged multifractal on some points and stretching.