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khan973
03-26-2013, 07:53 AM
Hi everyone,

I will need to make unfolding animations.
Something like this
http://vimeo.com/50338145
It is pretty easy to make it in Cinema 4D but in LightWave, it seems like a pain.
Besides using bones, I don't have any Idea on how to do it.

Any idea? plug-in to bend thinks easily? DPKit solution?

Thanks for helping.

LW_Will
03-26-2013, 08:13 AM
Seems to me, I'd go back to the source. Those Pop-up books we had as children. Used to love those things. build the objects of the most simple planes, and then fold them. The key part is to make them APPEAR to be flat paper. textures and shading to make them look like paper...

khan973
03-26-2013, 08:16 AM
Thanks but the trickiest part isn't the modeling or shading but the animation. Unfolding can be pretty conplicated

sandman300
03-26-2013, 08:46 AM
I would probably try to do the animation in reverse. Start with the modeled form in it's complete configuration and fold it flat. You would have to model with folding in mind.

Also, a thought occurred to me, I wonder if you could use the SoftFX trick to fold the geometry?]

Edit: I tried it, It does work but it seams as though it would be more time consuming that it is worth. As each point must be animated for each frame individually.

ActionBob
03-26-2013, 08:55 AM
Hi everyone,

I will need to make unfolding animations.
Something like this
It is pretty easy to make it in Cinema 4D but in LightWave, it seems like a pain.
Besides using bones, I don't have any Idea on how to do it.

Any idea? plug-in to bend thinks easily? DPKit solution?

Thanks for helping.

If you examine the animation, you can actually see how you can FAKE some of the elements. For instance, the road that the carrier is traveling along could be laid out and revealed using a gradient texture parented to a null while the "folded" part travels slightly ahead of the null - you can see the semifolded part in front of the road doesn't really change form.

At a glance, I would think that the multi-storied buildings are already made and covered with a basic cube that is shrunk along a certain axis to reveal the balcony cut-outs. I think you could fake a lot of this and get similar results. Don't think that everything actually is a FOLDED geometry - CG stuff is a lot of fakery. Faking it is sometimes much easier to do in some instances. I bet the have a lot of clever tricks going on in this vid that make it appear that things are actually folded when they are not.

khan973
03-26-2013, 08:56 AM
Soft FX would give an inflating effect. Unless I use weight maps and textured influence with distance. I can try that. It's not easy to get a feeling of "construction". It must not look random.

OFF
03-26-2013, 09:11 AM
Test scene - keyframe animation
113034

khan973
03-26-2013, 09:25 AM
Thanks! Yes, keyframe works like a charm!
Thanks for shaering so quickly!

I feel like I'll spend a looooooooot of time keyframing all the objects!

khan973
03-26-2013, 09:39 AM
I was thinking about a trick with Dp Part Move bot it doesn't seem easy to control their rotation over time at a specific edge including hierarchy!

jeric_synergy
03-26-2013, 09:53 AM
??? Why is this easy in C4D?

khan973
03-26-2013, 10:05 AM
The fastest, easiest answer is : unified app...
To me people holding on to the idea of a separated app just are just scared of changes. We could just have a unified app with a F12 button that gives you a "Modeling only" interface.
We are too limited by the fact that we can't use classic deforming tool in Layout (Bend, twist in Layout are jokes).

In C4D people just use a bend tool that can be moved over time, linked and of course the value can change over time. All you have to do is place as many of them where you want.

I'm a LW lover but it makes me think when I see people doing such things in seconds in other apps while we struggle with tricks from the 90's

djwaterman
03-26-2013, 10:23 AM
I can only think bones and weight maps, and models that are constructed to fold, and lots of key framing. The example is fantastic, obviously a team effort with a lot of planning. I don't think there are any tricks or plugins that will help you, sure you could fake some things but anything that's going to be noticed will have to fold properly. Good luck with it.

djwaterman
03-26-2013, 10:26 AM
Seems to me, I'd go back to the source. Those Pop-up books we had as children. Used to love those things. build the objects of the most simple planes, and then fold them. The key part is to make them APPEAR to be flat paper. textures and shading to make them look like paper...

Good idea, you might have to make some of these things in paper and lay them flat on a scanner to get the correct proportions, use them as templates in modeler.

khan973
03-26-2013, 10:30 AM
Good idea, you might have to make some of these things in paper and lay them flat on a scanner to get the correct proportions, use them as templates in modeler.

That's a good idea!
I think I'll also use shift spline transform to have some nice movements.

50one
03-26-2013, 10:36 AM
That's a good idea!
I think I'll also use shift spline transform to have some nice movements.


This type of animation is quite easy in údsmax / Cinema, but pain in Lightwave and modo. I could swear that someone made here a scene with this effect with DP Kit.

jeric_synergy
03-26-2013, 12:29 PM
Hmmmm. I've closed a box using W.maps and bones-- it's especially easy if the 'flaps' are rigid.

When you're using the BEND tool in C4d in a 'Scene', how are the affected objects delimited? (Assuming they are contiguous.)

There are Bend/Twist/Rotate deformers in LW, but they are really bad jokes IMO. Far too limited for realistic production (cue the person who's using them everyday profitably....). For instance, they affect the entire object, w/no options for limiting their effect except the Base/Handle paradigm.

WilliamVaughan
03-26-2013, 01:58 PM
I created similar effect , on a smaller scale, a couple years ago in NY for a Holiday card and found it to be fairly easy and straightforward using a mix of morphs and bones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks9c_89sej0

khan973
03-26-2013, 02:23 PM
Thanks William, it looks great. My client wants a lot of details, so I guess it will just be a a lot of people work :)

3DGFXStudios
03-26-2013, 02:28 PM
I tried to do something like this in LW a while ago. It's just not doable. I mean the double folding effects. Tried it in max (never used it before) tada!
If you only bend stuff once it's doable. But folding stuff is a no no...

jeric_synergy
03-26-2013, 02:53 PM
?? Can't anything that's able to be layed out flat (in RL) be folded using bones?

probiner
03-26-2013, 02:59 PM
so what's hard about it? setting pivots of rotation?

The OP video animation is done in Max or C4D?

wesleycorgi
03-26-2013, 03:06 PM
A few years ago, I did the attached folding box (an actual box that looked like our product and we used for shipping literature and other goodies) as part of a promotion. At the time, I didn't know much about bones nor weight maps (still really don't) and I was able to put this together pretty quickly.

WilliamVaughan
03-26-2013, 03:15 PM
I didnt find it difficult to do in LW and definitely didnt find it impossible. double or triple folding is a matter of animating bones and or/morphs.

wesleycorgi
03-26-2013, 03:59 PM
I didnt find it difficult to do in LW and definitely didnt find it impossible. double or triple folding is a matter of animating bones and or/morphs.

But William, you make everything look easy! ;) The original vid and yours makes me want to use this effect for one of my next projects.

Lewis
03-26-2013, 04:40 PM
I'd go with morphing and sliders but it's going to be PITA workflow and for sam reason you already know/mentioned, SPLIT app , it's way too much limited that we can't animate modeling tools or have stack to change modleing settings on the fly/later:(.

shrox
03-26-2013, 05:59 PM
Just dazzle them with chrome balls and lens flares.

jeric_synergy
03-26-2013, 08:38 PM
Just dazzle them with chrome balls and lens flares.
That's hurtful to those of use who LIKE chrome spheres and lens flares.

Not to mention checkerboard plains.

djwaterman
03-26-2013, 09:37 PM
It's do-able, it's just animation in the end, a lot of rotating bones or pivots. I'm sure once you get your workflow going it will get easier, and then you can do a tutorial for the rest of us:D

I did quite a few unfolding CD cases for music promotion TVC's in the past, just weight mapped and bones. But the hard part would be just figuring out how things fold. I can't believe some people have stated that this is not possible in Lightwave, it is.

khan973
03-27-2013, 01:02 AM
For sure it is doable, but it might take way more time than what it would take in certain softwares. Split cough app, cough!...

omichon
03-27-2013, 02:06 AM
For sure it is doable, but it might take way more time than what it would take in certain softwares. Split cough app, cough!...

Can't agree more. It remembers me a bumper for a French TV done by a co-worker where the idea was to reveal a logo by unfolding each polygon from the previous. It was just some reasonable time consuming keyframe animation job for Maya ten years ago (select an edge, rotate poly, select next and so on), but nothing sweaty. Can't say the same about doing this in LightWave for sure.
Sorry Khan I can't be on board this time :\

wesleycorgi
03-27-2013, 10:55 AM
Hi Khan, maybe some of this can be eased with a Genoma/Bullet Soft Body Dynamics approach. I was looking at Lino's Siggraph demo here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iAJzZ00La6Q#t=1150s

erikals
03-27-2013, 12:26 PM
i'd through in a bit of this technique too >

Normal displacement morph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqZFLFQ_T-0

khan973
03-27-2013, 12:36 PM
Hum why not... thanks. I think I'll try a bit of each technique :)

Amurrell
03-28-2013, 01:49 AM
You mean something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuPmeu28Cc

He unfolds plant leaves, sort of.

lino.grandi
03-28-2013, 08:28 AM
The fastest, easiest answer is : unified app...
To me people holding on to the idea of a separated app just are just scared of changes. We could just have a unified app with a F12 button that gives you a "Modeling only" interface.
We are too limited by the fact that we can't use classic deforming tool in Layout (Bend, twist in Layout are jokes).

In C4D people just use a bend tool that can be moved over time, linked and of course the value can change over time. All you have to do is place as many of them where you want.

I'm a LW lover but it makes me think when I see people doing such things in seconds in other apps while we struggle with tricks from the 90's

I've prepared a sample that maybe can help.

I've used Genoma to "rig" the box.

I've even applied a Twist Deformer, that of course can be animated (same for Bend, Vortex, Shear, Pole, Taper...). I think those deforming tools are a little underestimated....

jwiede
03-28-2013, 12:37 PM
In C4D people just use a bend tool that can be moved over time, linked and of course the value can change over time. All you have to do is place as many of them where you want.
Tools like Kuroyume's Unfurl/ (http://www.kuroyumes-developmentzone.com/unfurl/) definitely help as well. It makes that whole style of "continually unfolding vista" type environment surprisingly easy.

khan973
03-29-2013, 09:07 AM
I've even applied a Twist Deformer, that of course can be animated (same for Bend, Vortex, Shear, Pole, Taper...). I think those deforming tools are a little underestimated....

Thanks a lot Lino THANK YOU everybody! Unfortunately, the client wants to explore an other idea :(
However this post is useful!
Lino, those deformers, I used them in a lot of projects but they didn't always react well in all situations. From what I remember, it started to cause problems with hierarchy, mirrored items and I had to place the pivot point of the object at different places to prevent unwanted results.
I think they deserve to be better integrated with gizmos for a better visual representation of the deformation and an option to be "chained" to have multiple bending, twist or taper along the same object.

It shouldn't remain hidden in the deform > displacement menu (would be nice to have them nodal too!). It should be located in the Modify tab.

khan973
03-29-2013, 09:17 AM
It also has to work on specific axis

khan973
03-29-2013, 09:31 AM
The rig is cool, I like how the handle manages the folding of 3 sides of the cube :)