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Torkuda
03-19-2013, 04:58 PM
The consensus among those who read comics seems to be that 3d rendered Comics can't work. My personal experience with attempting has been so-so, able to impress a few friends, but I never had the advertising to reach a large audience anyway.

Most 3d comics I've seen are hard to call original creations as they're mostly DAZ or Poser characters put into DAZ scenes with DAZ objects and creatures. No offence to DAZ, but their models tend to only work in a few poses and even as they improve, they really don't tend to look very unique. (The goal for them in realism, not original creation.)

Thus here is the real question. Has a comic with originally created characters, creatures and scenes ever been attempted, let alone tried? I can't find any if one has. Anyone here a fan of one that seems to be doing alright or just want to brag on it anyway?

ConjureBunny
03-19-2013, 05:10 PM
Would this be like an in-motion / game / interactive thing, or a series of screens of DAZ characters?

-Chilton

robertoortiz
03-19-2013, 05:11 PM
I posted this on the CGSOCIETY about 3 years ago:

Well this will blow some people away, but a LOT of traditional artists use
Google sketchup to help them, with backgrounds:

Quote from the article:
"Joe Quesada, Jason Christensen and Dave McCaig are using Google SketchUp to calculate complex perspectives, and design and render background buildings. SketchUp is a versatile and simple tool, with a plethora of open-source models, and bespoke modelmakers like Form Fonts (http://www.formfonts.com/) to fill specific needs."

link (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/04/03/stuart-immonen-on-computers-and-art/)


Here is a COOL VIDEO from Marvel.com of the Stark Tower 3D model
by Joe Quesada ( Editor in Chief of Marvel comics).
http://www.ign.com/articles/2007/02/03/avengers-tower-rendered-in-3d

-R

hrgiger
03-19-2013, 05:16 PM
Sure it could work. Ideally, you would want to have some help so you could split up the workload so you have someone who does the lighting, another who does the posing of the characters, layout, etc...

Torkuda
03-19-2013, 05:17 PM
Would this be like an in-motion / game / interactive thing, or a series of screens of DAZ characters?

-Chilton

No DAZ models at all. I think that's the problem in most 3D comics. DAZ models just don't feel very alive, like they're faces and bodies are close to real life rather than designed for an illustrated environment.

Torkuda
03-19-2013, 05:19 PM
C'mon now. This is a 3d modeling forum, essentially Geek'sR'US. Anyone here actually READ a 3d comic? I know we have to have comic fans here. I'm one.

probiner
03-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Will work if one doesn't just dwell on "3D" but actually takes advantage of 3D to make better 2D stylized images.
There are of course great examples of hyper-realistic comics, but it's interesting you most times feel the craft on them.

Cheers

jasonwestmas
03-19-2013, 05:54 PM
Of course it can work, you just need a good shader that reflects the appropriate stylization.


http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?93536-zbrush-comic

http://vimeo.com/36577947

http://onirograph.com/comic-ink-zbrush-matcap-pack/

Torkuda
03-19-2013, 06:00 PM
Of course it can work, you just need a good shader that reflects the appropriate stylization.


http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?93536-zbrush-comic

http://vimeo.com/36577947

http://onirograph.com/comic-ink-zbrush-matcap-pack/


Not quite what I had in mind, but those DO look interesting.

I was thinking more along the lines of figures like those used in The Incredibles.

Celshader
03-19-2013, 06:01 PM
Right now I prefer using 3D for backgrounds...

http://lore.greeblegraphics.com/wp-content/gallery/lore-cover-art/Lore_11_and_12_cover.jpg

jasonwestmas
03-19-2013, 06:11 PM
Yeah, my favorite part of using 3D is the near "free" sense of perspective you can get.

BigHache
03-19-2013, 06:28 PM
There was a comic in 1994 called "Eye of the Storm (https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=129631)" which used a combination of 3D renders and Photoshop rendered illustrated characters. Very dated by today's standards but I collected it and enjoyed it. I don't think it did well. I think they only got four issues out. Now, that could have been a publisher decision to pull after low sales. If you're self-publishing then you have more options.

ShadowMystic
03-19-2013, 07:18 PM
Delura has a 3D rendered comic that is pretty good!

Ryan Roye
03-19-2013, 07:19 PM
EDIT: Shadowmystic be pimpin me out, yo!

I'm doing one right now (http://delura.tanadrine.com/RenderComic/?id=12) as a supplemental to my animated content... it's been paused for the time being, but I intend to keep running it weekly after all is said and done. The nice thing about it is that it normally doesn't take a huge bite out of production time that needs to be spent towards animated content (the exception of course being when you need to model entirely new environments and such).

Another successful 3d comic I know of is called the dreamland chronicles. (http://www.thedreamlandchronicles.com) I have zero interest in their art style and story, but they are doing quite well and had a hugely successful Kickstarter funded last year.

GregMalick
03-19-2013, 07:23 PM
I say yes.

And it won't be an either or proposition.
It will be both.

BTW, in ages past, some people were against using Photoshop in Comics - and look how some of the best artists now use it.
Check out Gnomon tutorials if you aren't aware of how PS is used in comics. But like I said, traditional penciling will never go away.

WilliamVaughan
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
Red Star was one of the first comics that did it right imho:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Star


havent seen 3D used that well in comics... rare to see but it has been done

Torkuda
03-20-2013, 12:49 PM
EDIT: Shadowmystic be pimpin me out, yo!

I'm doing one right now (http://delura.tanadrine.com/RenderComic/?id=12) as a supplemental to my animated content... it's been paused for the time being, but I intend to keep running it weekly after all is said and done. The nice thing about it is that it normally doesn't take a huge bite out of production time that needs to be spent towards animated content (the exception of course being when you need to model entirely new environments and such).

Another successful 3d comic I know of is called the dreamland chronicles. (http://www.thedreamlandchronicles.com) I have zero interest in their art style and story, but they are doing quite well and had a hugely successful Kickstarter funded last year.

That's actually what I was thinking about. Dreamland I mean. I think you should talk to the writer of that comic chazriker, yours aren't terrible, but they could use some work.

Ryan Roye
03-20-2013, 01:23 PM
That's actually what I was thinking about. Dreamland I mean. I think you should talk to the writer of that comic chazriker, yours aren't terrible, but they could use some work.

I'm working on refurbished hardware from 2003 and Lightwave 9.6, but you'll get no argument from me concerning visuals; and perfecting visuals has and never will be my specialty. Eventually I'd like to get someone who is more talented at character modeling than I am to take over in that department so I can just do animation (what I'm best at). Improvements will come with time, as always :)

Torkuda
03-20-2013, 01:41 PM
I'm working on refurbished hardware from 2003 and Lightwave 9.6, but you'll get no argument from me concerning visuals; and perfecting visuals has and never will be my specialty. Eventually I'd like to get someone who is more talented at character modeling than I am to take over in that department so I can just do animation (what I'm best at). Improvements will come with time, as always :)

Actually I've noticed that with Delura. The animation is very fast and fluid and the character models are passing, but the scenes often look pretty chaotic. Even for sci-fi buffs like me, you need to introduce concepts slower. By episode four I'm starting to catch on, but the story seems to be taking a back seat to trying to wow us with the visuals. It feels like the fight scenes would work pretty well in a music video, but if it's a story you want, it needs some work. Really, I think your technology is okay, kinda like the old Reboot series, I'm just having a hard time following what's going on.

Matelot13
03-20-2013, 02:27 PM
Bottom Of The Ninth (http://www.bottom-of-the-ninth.com/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwcC8jpc35A

http://www.bottom-of-the-ninth.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ipad.gif

wesleycorgi
03-20-2013, 02:59 PM
The bottom of the ninth looks pretty cool. Does anyone know what the creator used?

Thomas Helzle
03-21-2013, 05:24 PM
http://www.bottom-of-the-ninth.com/

There's some background information to be found on the site.
This guy is a brilliant illustrator and animator, 3D is mostly used for Backgrounds AFAIK.

He also did one of my alltime favourite animations:
http://vimeo.com/14803194

I'm very interested in this area as well, but it was always my impression that for comics, drawing is often more efficient, since if you want to create REALLY good images, doing them in 3D can be actually more involved and time consuming than drawing.

But that basic idea actually brought me into 3D ages ago :-)
My Avatar is from that time - the Hair was done with Shave and a Haircut...

Cheers,

Tom

jasonwestmas
03-21-2013, 05:36 PM
http://www.bottom-of-the-ninth.com/

There's some background information to be found on the site.
This guy is a brilliant illustrator and animator, 3D is mostly used for Backgrounds AFAIK.

He also did one of my alltime favourite animations:
http://vimeo.com/14803194

I'm very interested in this area as well, but it was always my impression that for comics, drawing is often more efficient, since if you want to create REALLY good images, doing them in 3D can be actually more involved and time consuming than drawing.

But that basic idea actually brought me into 3D ages ago :-)
My Avatar is from that time - the Hair was done with Shave and a Haircut...

Cheers,

Tom

Can go either way. I actually find 3D tools to be bad at structural design but excellent at superficial enhancements/ details. To use both methods together is best imo. There's no particular order to use the tools either. I flip flop constantly.

BigHache
03-21-2013, 08:13 PM
He also did one of my alltime favourite animations:
http://vimeo.com/14803194

I'm with you on that one. I recognized his style immediately from Bottom of the Ninth.

shrox
03-24-2013, 12:00 AM
In a way that's kind of what I am trying with my show, albeit in a non traditional format. Some animation, some text, music, etc.

Philbert
03-24-2013, 12:28 AM
When I was at DAVE our final project was a short based on a comic book called Chimera, this one used a lot of 3D for background elements like space ships.

it was a short run and the comic company went out of business later but it's fun one if you want to look for it. Here's issue #1's cover:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/15723/364638-21268-128205-1-chimera_large.jpg

CaptainMarlowe
03-24-2013, 01:15 AM
I bought a few years ago some books from the Sinkha series. I liked it, but I prefer the look and feel of handmade comics.

http://www.sinkha.com/home_e.htm

Greenlaw
03-24-2013, 04:38 AM
This was something I did waaaaay back in 1993:

Beastmark (http://www.littlegreendog.com/comics/beastmark/beastmark001.php#.UU7TWFeRe2A)

Admittedly, the project was incredibly cheesy but it represents my earliest attempt to draw a comic on a computer. I used Swivel 3D for the 3D elements, which was my first 'real' 3D program. This project also represented my first use of the then 'revolutionary' Adobe Illustrator 5.5 and Photoshop (I think it was version 3.2 or so.)

At the time I thought drawing this way was too much work to be practical but then I was using a pokey Mac IIsi with a whopping 17MB of RAM--plus I was young and dumb and I really didn't know what I was doing back then.

Flash forward to 20 years later and I still don't know what I'm doing. :p

G.

Thomas Helzle
03-25-2013, 06:50 AM
Hey Greenlaw - that is actually very cool for 1993!

There was (and is) a lot of really bad and visually non-attractive stuff out there which often has to do with the cheap Poser/DAZ aesthetics IMO.
The problem seems to be, that it's easier (if you are good) to create a stylized Image/Background from some interesting strokes than doing that with 3D.
And convincing faces with all the emotions are also something rare in 3D.

Where a painter can "easily" create detail in the face where it really counts and "fade" out the detail where it's appropriate, that kind of thing is relatively complicated in 3D.

I'm still very much into NPR and Stylization, but I'm not patient/persistent/good enough for doing full Comics that I personally would find attractive.

http://www.screendream.de/Site/3d-design/graphics.html#/0 <- Thea Render + Lightroom/Photoshop
http://www.screendream.de/Site/3d-design/illustration.html#/3 <- Lightwave
(Site doesn't work with Internet Explorer)

It would be very interesting though to investigate the possibilities of Unbiased and GI rendering in combination with stylization like in the images above for a graphic novel.

Hmm...

Cheers,

Tom

Greenlaw
03-25-2013, 11:49 AM
The NPR examples at your site are pretty cool! Looking forward to seeing what you do with these techniques next.

G.

Thomas Helzle
03-25-2013, 12:45 PM
Thanks! :-)

This thread got me thinking again.
It would be cool to explore this area some more, especially since Lightwaves renderer is the best for this kind of stuff IMHO. It has so many things one can use and miss-use. ;-)

I'd like to come up with some Node-Networks and Presets, maybe even code a shader or two to make specific areas easier.
I never did any Lightwave-Nodes (I think I did a displacement shader about 10 years ago...), but maybe it's time to port some of my AoN:Shaders and explore some camera-ray-displacement if this concept exists. The Advanced Camera could also be an interesting target for investigation...

Well, after this job is done I'll do some digging ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

Titus
03-25-2013, 03:54 PM
There was this guy, Bill Fleming (komodoempire.deviantart.com/). He was doing 3D comics more than 10 years ago.

Thomas Helzle
03-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Well, I remember especially his huge scam back in those days when he sold tutorials that didn't surface...
Together with Joe Alter he's on my forever-blacklist ;-)

But yes, back then his stuff was impressive.

Cheers,

Tom

Greenlaw
03-25-2013, 04:53 PM
The earliest commerically published comic drawn on a computer I'm aware of was Shatter by Michael Saenz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatter_%28digital_comic%29), created back in 1985. It was drawn using MacPaint 1.0 on a 512k 'Fat Mac'. I think the art for the first issue was printed on an Apple ImageWriter dot-matrix printer and following issues were printed on the original Apple LaserWriter.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Shatter.jpg/311px-Shatter.jpg

The story in the first issue was pretty cool but unfortunately the author couldn't sustain the material for more than a few issues. My feeling is that it became too difficult for Saenz to draw the comic with a computer on a regular schedule and he probably just lost interest in it--he described the experience as "like drawing with a bar of soap."

In any case, that comic got me seriously interested in using computers for illustration and design--Shatter #1 convinced me that the future for graphic artists and illustrators was held in the desktop computer and I bought my first Macintosh later that year. I loved using that computer but it didn't take long for me to realize that personal computers (and computer artists) still had a long road ahead of them.

From what I can recall, there was some very crude 3D used for some elements in early issues of Shatter, probably created using Easy3D.

The next really big thing I remember was Digital Justice by Pepe Moreno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Digital_Justice), which came out five years later in 1990. I think Moreno drew it mostly in Photoshop on a Mac II, the earliest Macintosh that supported color. There may have been some 3D used in this comic too--my guess is that he probably used Super3D or Swivel3D.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Batman_Digital_Justice_cover.jpg

I believe it was Moreno's work in Digital Justice that got me first interested in using Photoshop for drawing. It was a few years before I could afford the program though, and even then it was only because Photoshop 2.0 came bundled free with my first flatbed scanner.

Anyway, that's pretty much the extent of my otherwise useless knowledge of computer comic history. :p

G.

sandman300
03-25-2013, 06:14 PM
Michael Saenz also did the Iron Man "Crash" graphic novel.
I recall seeing comics more recently from Marvel that were at least partly computer generated (characters were modeled) but they didn't impress me at all. They seemed forced.

Marvel has this new thing called AR (Augmented Reality), It might be interesting to see CG characters animated with that (although it would be a huge amount of work).

RorrKonn
03-26-2013, 04:22 PM
http://www.experienceanomaly.com/
used poser,zbrush,photoshop
they tell how they made it at a poser webinar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heSn6iVB__M