PDA

View Full Version : Matrix: Decrypted



MiniFireDragon
11-06-2003, 12:50 PM
I thought i'd start this thread after reading the other thread and some of the questions brought up and the holes. Everyone has their own pov of life, which might make how one sees the events different, this is merely my angle on some concepts some people don't understand.


Why did the machines attack as they did:
If you seen part too, you will have figured out why the machines moved like they did.

"We have destroyed Zion 5 times and have become quite efficient..."


Geothermal power, why don't the machines use it?
Humans can live off of geothermal because we are self contained power supplies as emphized by the 1st movie. There is no way to generate the power they were using with Geothermal.

Why there are so many machines?
The machines were created by humans, humans spawn and grow. The Trianman scene explains this whole concept of why there is so many machines.


Why not go above the clouds to the sun?
ELLO!! No electrical device could make it above the clouds. If u noticed the ship had no power coming back in.

The whole choice bit, a machine doesn't have a choice, it is a program, programs don't have a choice, do this if this = this, do that if that - that.

The oracle was the only one who understood (by shear accident) why humans were rejecting the code. With choice entered into a program like it was, it creates an anomially, hence NEO (the what the hell did he say in Part 2).

Why Neo could do what he could do:
By this time, Neo had fully come into what he is. In order to be such a thing, one must know thy self, hence, the fully integration of his mechincal being and his physical self. So he already has the ability to talk to the machines and recieve the incoming code, he just learned how to broadcast the messages. All electrical devices create "noise" (look at the FFC warnings on you computer and cellphone equipment) he simply created a destructive interference. BS you say?? Heheh, this is a real life experience, I have encounter people in Real Life who can make a light bulb dim. How about playing with plasma globes? Your hand gets close it attracks the tendrals...



The thing you learn reading a magazine:

What happened to the Person playing the oracle?? She Died of a heartattack at the end of the filming for the second movie. Why was Tank not in the sequals? He flipped out on set and was kicked off the movie, hence Link had to replace him.

cresshead
11-06-2003, 01:08 PM
here we go...just a bit of fun you understand!

Matrix: Decrypted
I thought i'd start this thread after reading the other thread and some of the questions brought up and the holes. Everyone has their own pov of life, which might make how one sees the events different, this is merely my angle on some concepts some people don't understand.


Why did the machines attack as they did:
If you seen part too, you will have figured out why the machines moved like they did.

"We have destroyed Zion 5 times and have become quite efficient..."

**efficient...how about using the already used pathways instead of drilling down 10km thru rock.....**


Geothermal power, why don't the machines use it?
Humans can live off of geothermal because we are self contained power supplies as emphized by the 1st movie. There is no way to generate the power they were using with Geothermal.

**never heard of a heat exchanger??**

Why there are so many machines?
The machines were created by humans, humans spawn and grow. The Trianman scene explains this whole concept of why there is so many machines.

**the trainman scene was a filler scene...nothing grew from that scene other than the length of the film**


Why not go above the clouds to the sun?
ELLO!! No electrical device could make it above the clouds. If u noticed the ship had no power coming back in.

**solar energy???**

The whole choice bit, a machine doesn't have a choice, it is a program, programs don't have a choice, do this if this = this, do that if that - that.


**if you re read your statement you see that you have undermined your own argument...if this then that...that is a program actually making choice based on available facts/information...that's what we do and animals do all the time!

never heard of A.I. [not the filmBTW!!] most decent games use it nowdays**

The oracle was the only one who understood (by shear accident) why humans were rejecting the code. With choice entered into a program like it was, it creates an anomially, hence NEO (the what the hell did he say in Part 2).



Why Neo could do what he could do:
By this time, Neo had fully come into what he is. In order to be such a thing, one must know thy self, hence, the fully integration of his mechincal being and his physical self. So he already has the ability to talk to the machines and recieve the incoming code, he just learned how to broadcast the messages. All electrical devices create "noise" (look at the FFC warnings on you computer and cellphone equipment) he simply created a destructive interference. BS you say?? Heheh, this is a real life experience, I have encounter people in Real Life who can make a light bulb dim. How about playing with plasma globes? Your hand gets close it attracks the tendrals...


**okay that sounds fun!**


The thing you learn reading a magazine:

What happened to the Person playing the oracle?? She Died of a heartattack at the end of the filming for the second movie. Why was Tank not in the sequals? He flipped out on set and was kicked off the movie, hence Link had to replace him.


**now that is interesting background..didn't know about tank**

MiniFireDragon
11-06-2003, 01:38 PM
**efficient...how about using the already used pathways instead of drilling down 10km thru rock.....**
Commander Lock is it?? He said in 2nd Movie "They can't use the access tunnels because they are to heavliy fortified"


**never heard of a heat exchanger??**
Then why are we still using Coal Plant? Nuclear Power Plants? Why are we trying to establish fusion generators?

**the trainman scene was a filler scene...nothing grew from that scene other than the length of the film**
There is something you missed here. The little girl was a program about to be delete (she was responsible for spectacular sunrises) The parenting programs did not want to lose their child so sent her into exile. The idea of programs hacking programs and programs creating programs. Creation and Destruction...

**solar energy???**
Did you not read what I said? All the sentinels were blown of by the streaks of lightening, even the ship was shut down and they had a hard time restarting it. How can u get above something like that?

**if you re read your statement you see that you have undermined your own argument...if this then that...that is a program actually making choice based on available facts/information...that's what we do and animals do all the time!***
I am sure you have experienced the blue screen of death? How about command not recognized?? Perhaps a system crash?? Those are all items the computer program did not know what to do with. As a human if u don't have an answer to something it doesn't stop you.

**never heard of A.I. [not the filmBTW!!] most decent games use it nowdays**

A.I. still can not fully understand the choices a human makes (like why did they go that way when this way was more efficient. It was Neo's uncontrolable, unpredictable choices that is the anomally (see the speech by the architect)

KillMe
11-06-2003, 02:06 PM
if you want to pick a hole in the matrix then i have one word for you

Entropy

any scientist will tell you that while you might get some electrical energy off a human body and some heat too it is less energy than was contained within the food you fed that person to keep them alive

therefore using humans is acaully reducing there energy reserves

now i've not see the 3rd one yet but you mentioned lightning =) nwo there would be a good power source - put out afew lighting rods etc and they would have a much bette rpower supply - geotermal power plant do exist i believe so they would be a viable source for some power if not all - nuclear power would also be a good choice without the sun around as would tidal and wind power

pah but its jsut a story so let them get away with there flagrant abuses of the laws of phsyics and just enjoy

cresshead
11-06-2003, 02:08 PM
no one to flog a dead horse but!.......................

**efficient...how about using the already used pathways instead of drilling down 10km thru rock.....**
Commander Lock is it?? He said in 2nd Movie "They can't use the access tunnels because they are to heavliy fortified"

x***okay so the pathways are heavily fortified...but why do the ineficient way... and dig your own tunnel...and correct me if i'm wrong but the sentinels still came thru those same dock gates along with the last EMP ship...so they're not "that" fortified are they!!!!


**never heard of a heat exchanger??**
Then why are we still using Coal Plant? Nuclear Power Plants? Why are we trying to establish fusion generators?

x***absolutely..and they use head exchangers to get power...you may want to look into just how your electric is really made!!!

**the trainman scene was a filler scene...nothing grew from that scene other than the length of the film**
There is something you missed here. The little girl was a program about to be delete (she was responsible for spectacular sunrises) The parenting programs did not want to lose their child so sent her into exile. The idea of programs hacking programs and programs creating programs. Creation and Destruction...

she was responsible for spectacular sunrises in a make believe world...the real world had some nice clouds and sunsets to look at!!....okay i'll sort of conceed that point as i may have drifted off into a short coma at that point!

**solar energy???**
Did you not read what I said? All the sentinels were blown of by the streaks of lightening, even the ship was shut down and they had a hard time restarting it. How can u get above something like that?

..err if a hover ship...re read that "hover" ship can get above the clouds i'd think that the massed ranks of either real human development or the machines could as well with a purpose made device...after all a ship that was designed to fload above the floor a few tens of feet managed....

**if you re read your statement you see that you have undermined your own argument...if this then that...that is a program actually making choice based on available facts/information...that's what we do and animals do all the time!***
I am sure you have experienced the blue screen of death? How about command not recognized?? Perhaps a system crash?? Those are all items the computer program did not know what to do with. As a human if u don't have an answer to something it doesn't stop you.

**never heard of A.I. [not the filmBTW!!] most decent games use it nowdays**

A.I. still can not fully understand the choices a human makes (like why did they go that way when this way was more efficient. It was Neo's uncontrolable, unpredictable choices that is the anomally (see the speech by the architect)



*****anyway what about the EMP ships...were they all out of action at "kwick fit" having an emmisions MOT?

sorry...i'm not having a go really....it's that i's hope that such graceful directing of the first 2 films would have born a good third film....

i did enjoy the FX..they were amazing......

maybe "one for the fast forward button" when on DVD.

Matt
11-06-2003, 02:21 PM
The Matrix is real isn't it? I have dejavu all the time!

:D

cresshead
11-06-2003, 02:24 PM
i'm almost sure i've seen matt's reply somewhere before????

stee+cats

sketchyjay
11-06-2003, 04:29 PM
Interesting arguments.

I wonder if the access tunnels are just the tunnels the sentinels dug the last 5 times.. :)

The ships were all knocked out by smith on the way to the war...why were they all travelign together i wonder. if it was that easy to knock out their ships i'd always spread them out. After all it would only take one guy to panic to knock out the whole group of ships...

geothermal energy is used in some parts of the world but you of course have to be near the source of heat. I guess if the machines all wanted to live down near the core of the world they would have all the energy the could want. But then again why not have power cables run up from below.


Maybe the machines are really greedy for energy so they have geothermal, dams, wind power and everything else along with humans.


Jay

Meaty
11-06-2003, 07:13 PM
For the Entropy argument... I am no physicist, but I think you proposed a false ultimatum.

The question is not whether or not what you 'put into the humans has more energy vs. what you could get out of them' ...

The entropy argument assumes that the machines have the ability to process and convert to energy the food or whatever they were giving the humans to keep them alive, more efficiently than humans do. If I had to guess, I would say that a few million years of evolution is probably more efficient than a mechanical solution.

Truth is that entropy is a fact of everyday power production. There is the raw materials, then the means to extract energy from those materials. During that process there is energy loss, but what am I going to do with a uranium rod or a lump of coal. Humans were simply a means to get the energy out of the stuff they were feeding them.

Elmar Moelzer
11-06-2003, 09:14 PM
Have to agree with KillMe.
That was something that really spoiled a lot of the first Matrix- part for me.
A human needs much more energy to grow and live than is contained in his body when he dies (you need actually up to 75% of all ccal that you eat just for breathing and basic body- functions).
So the argument of feeding dead humans to the living ones does not work, if this is the only food they give to them.
Growing more food requires energy as well (like sunlight for plants). And actually the human body needs UV- light (sunlight) for production of (not sure now) Vitamine D.
So actually humans are consuming much more engergy than the few Watts they create in the form of body heat and electricity.
So where does that energy come from?
And if there is a source of that energy, why dont the Mashines use it themselves?
The processing of food- argument does not work for me.
You could feed it to bacteria or other animals and have less of a struggle with them than you have with humans.
CU
Elmar

KillMe
11-06-2003, 09:19 PM
you miss the point - huamsn didn't evolve to be batteries most of the energy we consume iis required to keep us alive even if we aren't moving any muscle s or anything simply keeping the heart pumping usings alot of that energy then there is the entropy in our own use of energy then the entropy when the machines try to use that energy which is a by product and is really a very small quantity

also take into account the life support system for each person the energy for that alone would vastly out weight the extremely limited about of power we emit as heat - they would do far bette to sticking the food they feed us to burn under a pot of water and use the steam to drive a turbine would be alot more effeneitnt han running ti through a human

as for our electrical output dont make me laugh - the electricy running in our nervous system isincredubully weak and wouldn't so much as power an LED

nope one way or another without a renewable souce of energy the machiens are screwed ( can i say that ona forum? ) and humans use more energy than they give out so infact we are light the lightbulb in the circiut not the battery - we might ahve osme electricity running through us and we might give off heat but we are not a power source

if you were aiming to use huamsn to produce heat hmmmmmm well we do produce some but as indivuals thats nto much if they dumped 1000 into one pool it might heat it up abit more but like i said why not burn the food used to feed the huamsn ans the huamsn themselves as fuel under the pool - would heat it up alot more and while you might think its a short term thing - entropy will ensure that it would still be the better option as in the long run the humans need to live so are suckin away your heat to keep themselves alive

nope they want some heat they shoudl go dig up some uranium shove it in some tanks of water with a load more uranium adn hope they dont miscalcute how much they need =)

Hervé
11-06-2003, 11:24 PM
too "incroyable" for me.... nah, I am just too old for those movies... he he..

MiniFireDragon
11-07-2003, 06:57 AM
x***okay so the pathways are heavily fortified...but why do the ineficient way... and dig your own tunnel...and correct me if i'm wrong but the sentinels still came thru those same dock gates along with the last EMP ship...so they're not "that" fortified are they!!!!

Perhaps u missed the massive steel gate that the last mech opened by destroying the chain??


***..err if a hover ship...re read that "hover" ship can get above the clouds i'd think that the massed ranks of either real human development or the machines could as well with a purpose made device...after all a ship that was designed to fload above the floor a few tens of feet managed.... ***

In the 60's there was research done with hi voltages. It seems that when applied to an object it would become float upward. Due to the amount of power need the project was abadoned as a viable source of transportation. Not to mention the momentum the aquired in their ascent above the clouds.


People mentioned about human as a power source. The plugs u seen on each person were the outlets to absorb the electrical pulses as your muscles's flex (hence Neo Atrophy, he never used them his entire life). U can take a speciliazed meter and read the amount of current produced by your body, each person's amount varies. And for a neater trick, if you have fillings in your teeth (top and bottom same side) put a piece of aluminum foil in your mouth joining the 2 fillings, that pain u feel is due to the bodies electrical system.

artologist
11-07-2003, 08:41 AM
i must be missing something. if the machines destroyed zion 5 times then is zion not real? when neo chooses the door in the second film as opposed to selecting the door that allows him to choose the 15 or so people to rebuild zion doesn't that me that zion is part of the matrix.

artologist
11-07-2003, 08:47 AM
and if zion is part of the matrix then who is actually on the outside( the real real world) controlling the "real world" and the matrix which are in fact the same thing.

MiniFireDragon
11-07-2003, 09:55 AM
artologist:

You have a very good point. I considered that a few times before I saw the 3rd flic the other night.

Statement from Agent Smith in 1st Movie:

"Give me the keys to access the Zion Mainframe"

Architect in 2nd Movie had mentioned something that made it sound like Zion was just another system.

Neo's Connection with the Machines

Smiths ability to Move outside of the Matrix

Neo being stuck inbetween

All those give rise to maybe they really are inside the matrix and just thought they weren't. Which could be tied into the end of the 3rd movie with all those that want to be freed can be freed.


As for the Zion being destroyed 5 times before, perhaps I am mistaken, but Neo all 5 times, never walked out the door he did in this movie. It was only in this time he developed such a close bond to Trinity (more or less thanks to the Oracle). Which means only Zion was destroyed. And Neo rebuilt it, which also leads to why know one knows exaclty how long it's been going on (Morpheous in 1st Movie). They revealed in the 1st movie that it was a repeative cycle (Morpheous's explanation to Neo of the Matrix) A man was born into the Matrix who could.... Oracle prophisizes another... Oracle was with us since the beginning...

And Neo just never put 2 and 2 together.


It's just another level of philosophical thought.

Red_Oddity
11-07-2003, 09:58 AM
AAAARRRGGG...stop it..stop it....your frying my synapses....

*droooooohhlll*

The Matrix was swiss cheese...full of holes and really tasty...

ericsmith
11-07-2003, 10:16 AM
Zion is not part of the matrix. The machines created the matrix to house the human minds, and then discovered that humans can't live without the ability to choose. So they created Zion, and the mechanism ("the One") that would enable humans to escape rather than corrupt the matrix. When the population of Zion grew too large, (perhaps the machines were afraid that a strong enough human army would actually be a threat) they destroyed Zion and "the One" would choose a handful of humans to start the entire cycle over.

A lot of people speculated that the "real" world was just another matrix because Neo had power over the machines in it, and agent Smith seemed to be able to exist in it as well. But these plot points were just put in the story without trying to rationalize them. They stated that Neo's powers extended beyond the matrix, and left it at that.

Personally, I really liked Revolutions. I thought Reloaded was garbage when I first saw it, but in context with Revolutions, the whole thing came together for me. One thing that might have helped was that I watched Reloaded the day before I saw Revolutions, so I had it fresh in my mind. But overall, I think they might have served their audience better by making one huge sequel, and trimming it a bit more, than seperating the two. Putting them both together makes them work. The problem is that so many were dissapointed by Reloaded, and there was so much speculation about where it was leading, that Revolutions has some really unrealistic hurdles to overcome. It has to be good enough to make people forget how dissappointed they were at the end of the second movie.

artologist
11-07-2003, 12:46 PM
You kinda proved my point.

a) If Zion is in the real world and the machines created it then why does it take so long for the machine burrow to it and destroy it?

b) If Zion is an extension of the Matrix created by the machines, then the machines we see attacking would not be real but residual self images, so then where are the machine jacking into the Zion and the Matrix from.

Dragon-
The past 5 have choosen the other door to restart the whole process whereas Neo choose to save Zion. Just as Neo goes for the door the Architect talks of "hope." At that point previous Neos would choose to restart but as you stated his love for Trinity is so strong that for the first time he goes through the different door to try and save Zion.

KillMe
11-07-2003, 01:02 PM
ok i've still not seen the 3rd film but here my take

remember that comment in the first film when neo is learning kung fu having it downlaoded into his brain and the gusy says he is a machine

well i'm thinking thats teh script writers acaulyl letting us in on the secret of the whole film

and you know what that secret is?

the AI machines lost the first war with us humans

supporting evidence

agent smith infiltrated a human mind - human minds dont work that way and it jsut wouldn't work but if that human mind was really a program then agent smith having turned into a computer virus would be able to inflitrate it nicely

neo well neo used powers outside the matrix - well hes no jedi knight and his powers are based on altering the code of the matrix basically an insticntive hacker without a connection to the matrix or any computer system there is no way he could influnce anything in the real world unless those link ups have a broadband mobile internet connection which they might just have noticed before

so it seems that the humans are programs yet the machines dont know it - conclusions

humans won the war by trapping the machines AI in a computer and to stop them from trying to escape they created the illusions that they had won but giving them humans to enslave ( this also neatly bypasses all the power supply issues as we know you can ignour the alws of phsycsi in computer games)

so why not destry the computer the ai is inhabiting well my guess would be that the whole world is run all services everything isrun by a the computer they are being held in and that to destroy the computer would bring on a second dark age perhpas the population lost the knowledge to create a replacement computer network in teh first AI war who knows

and finally back to neo what is he well he is the anti virus program trying to destroy the ai program from within without letting it know its trapped

seem all logical to me =)

ericsmith
11-07-2003, 01:07 PM
a) If Zion is in the real world and the machines created it then why does it take so long for the machine burrow to it and destroy it?


Well, that question is kind of relative, isn't it? The machines were able to burrow down to Zion in something like a couple of days. From the machine's point of view, compared to the hundred's of years that this system has been going on, that's really no big deal.

Sure, there are a lot of technical issues with the entire matrix series. Something I have realized recently is that in some ways, these inconsistancies are necessary. the whole point of drama is that it is larger than life, something we can't experience in the real, ordinary, and somewhat unexciting world. If moviemakers chased away all of the little details that don't fit our reality, there would be nothing left in the movie but ordinary real life, and no one is going to pay $8 to see that. We want to see things that are impossible, improbable, and unbelievable. There are some stories that accomplish the task with less logical hiccups, but ultimately, this is art, and individual perception is a large part of whether something works or not.

MiniFireDragon
11-07-2003, 01:32 PM
Artologist -

Among typos and mispelling I aggree with what u said with Neo choosing to save Zion. :)



I should mention one more thing about movie 2 and 3 that might explain why it might not quite seem like 1st one was. All 3 movies were not written together. When WB said hey, we want to do sequels the Brothers sat down and wrote them. And to get inspiration they turned on something like 22 different movies and animes to write the "Sequel" (if I am not mistaken, most were watched simaltaneiously.

beverins
11-07-2003, 02:58 PM
**solar energy???**
>>Did you not read what I said? All the sentinels were blown of >>by the streaks of lightening, even the ship was shut down and >>they had a hard time restarting it. How can u get above >>something like that?

>>..err if a hover ship...re read that "hover" ship can get above >>the clouds i'd think that the massed ranks of either real human >>development or the machines could as well with a purpose >>made device...after all a ship that was designed to fload above >>the floor a few tens of feet managed....

My thoughts exactly! How about a rocket, carrying a towline... which launches a balloon? Balloon stays aloft, holds towline. Massive electrical strikes from scorched sky gives them power. Build off towline to construct sheilded tunnel... sheilded tunnel allows specially made construction units to build solar power mast...

Anyway... what I think the largest plot hole of them all is that the machines are allergic to EMP, yet they are immune to nuclear warfare. Absolutely ridiculous, because the nuclear holocaust that apparently befell Zero-One in "The Second Renaissance" would have blasted enough EMP for thousands of miles of fried electronics.

Of course, the argument is, the machines were immune to EMP. So why are they allergic to it now? And why did they never learn how to adapt to a "more advanced" EMP (as if that would be possible).

beverins
11-07-2003, 03:05 PM
Of course, overanalyzing these sorts of movies is silly, but fun. Sortof like overanalyzing something like MechWarrior 4, because mechs on two legs are too easily tripped to be fearful machines of death...

Anyway, if EMP was so deadly to the machines, I would have thought Zion would just make a lot of "dumb missiles" with EMP warheads that just blasted entire areas with EMP. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Counterargument is that they didn't have enough resources to build that... but then they had enough to build all those mechs? I dunno.

cresshead
11-09-2003, 03:20 AM
...like i said when i started the martix 3 thread....

nice effects...really nice!

but the story suffered...s'pose somthing had to give...
you know balance the equation...poor story=excellent fx

i hope the 3rd star wars film has:
decent story=fantastic effects

stee+cats

Gui Lo
11-09-2003, 10:46 AM
after Reloaded I had thought that it was a re-hash of the '1984' by Geroge Orwell with the machines needing a zion to control the rebels.


It is only Morpheus who tells us humans are used as batteries but I think that the machines need humans to help define themselves. Their AI was made in the image of Man so they need to learn what it is to be human. We hear from the agents 'you are just human' and we hear agent Smith comparrison between humans and a virus. We see the frustration within Smith at not being able to comprehend what it is to be human. He knows all the words like love, devotion, loyalty but he cannot feel them.

Now I see that the story is about a game, like Chess, between the Oracle and the Architect. The architect wants order and logic but it knows it needs the Oracle to balance the 'needs' of the human psych. We see this balance as a game played between them. The Architect is used to winning and this is seen as arrogance in Reloaded. In Revelations the Oracle wins and the Architect pays the price.

Valan

jin choung
11-10-2003, 11:15 PM
hey minidragon, you gotta give up the energy point.

there is NO good argument against geothermal energy.

there is no reason why humans can use their MACHINES to process that heat into electricity (they have lights, tinker toy robots and all kinds of tech) and the MACHINE MACHINES be unable to do that!!!

'self contained bioelectric blah blah blah' is meaningless hoohah.

and entropy, second law of thermodynamics does indeed nix the idea of using humans as batteries.

sure, the machines can't eat food... fine. but having to sow, grow, harvest, process that food would take more energy than they get back from the people - this food doesn't just come out of nowhere you know.... not to mention having to actually HEAT THE PEOPLE, maintain the matrix simulation with all those high speed internet connections into the head, dispose waste, etc....)

USING HUMANS was the plot device that made the notion of the matrix fly.

but as long as the geothermal option existed, it is a premise with a GIGANTIC HOLE. again, if the people can drill down that far and have the tech to harness it, the machines surely could have.

the argument with getting above the clouds is certainly possible given the level of technology displayed but there is no actual filmic precedent so you COULD argue against it.

but to just logically extrapolate, you could just use a RAIL GUN that hurls a dead weight slug into geosynchronous orbit that is powered OFF and shielded against EMP, etc. then, after the slug enters orbit, it unfurls a cable back to earth - you have a harvest satellite. you could potentially have millions of these.

this is not unlike the idea of a space elevator that people are talking about even with today's technology.

don't defend the human battery as necessity. the movie is good enough even with the hole. but it is indeed a hole.

jin

Gui Lo
11-11-2003, 01:14 AM
@ Jin,
I don't think it is a hole. I think the Oracle told Morpheus that gem of info and he just accepted it. Either that or he just got it wrong or maybe used it as an easy explanation for the early Noe.

Smith says that whole crops of Humans were lost when they made the Matrix a perfect world. Does he mean they died?

In hospitals we can keep people living indefinately, even thought they are clinically dead. So I think the machines must have needed humans for something other than just battery fodder.

The thing I do wonder is why do they eat the slop?
Why not take it introveneously while they go to a nice restuarant in the Matrix and have a steak and chill out.


Valan

jin choung
11-11-2003, 01:29 AM
howdy gui lo,

there's NOTHING in the movie that suggests that the machines needed humans for anything other than power.

NOTHING....

you can make an argument for it by trying to fill the hole with logic... but it's more effort than the writers themselves have exerted.

yes, it WOULD make sense if the machines needed humans for another reason... but across three movies and all the animatrix shorts, there is simply nothing that supports that idea.

it IS a hole.

but as i said, no need to be so fanboyish about it... it's a hole but it's still a good movie - just not without its flaws.

jin

sketchyjay
11-11-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by beverins
Of course, overanalyzing these sorts of movies is silly, but fun. Sortof like overanalyzing something like MechWarrior 4, because mechs on two legs are too easily tripped to be fearful machines of death...

Anyway, if EMP was so deadly to the machines, I would have thought Zion would just make a lot of "dumb missiles" with EMP warheads that just blasted entire areas with EMP. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Counterargument is that they didn't have enough resources to build that... but then they had enough to build all those mechs? I dunno.

THat would make sense, BUT if you remember they were hand mixing powder and putting into shells... That is, there is no longer an industrial base. They probably make everything by hand and probably one at a time. Without an assembly line it takes a long time to build anything so there will probably never be more than enough EMPs to put into a few dozen ships or missiles.... So basicly they had to make a choice and protecting the ships going out probably had priority. Of course Smith blows the EMP while all the ships are together on the way to the fight so all their EMPs were lost is one fell swoop.

Gui Lo: Sorry I think what you saw was what you got. The humans are batteries. Doesn't make much sense but the writers went for a cool idea not for what made sense. It IS a cool idea and if you think on it too much it falls apart, didn't stop me from enjoying the first movie.

Remember they are trying to tell a story so a nice device is to show how tough it is living out in the real world which gives the guy in first movie a reason to betray his team. It's the same reason you don't see factories in Zion. They are trying to show a difference between humans and machines. Between reality and the matrix.

The clouds are another big hole. I mean big.
1. there is no way to have so much cloud cover that they don't part around mountains or near the poles or other locations in which the machines could setup solar collecting.

2. With no sunlight they would have to make their own to grow food to feed the humans in the matrix. Jin explained the logic problem before. Can anyone say perpetual motion machine. Standing on your own shoulders to get higher... the logic is really flawed, but again it is a cool idea so they expect us to suspend our disbelief for the duration of the movies.

3. IF you did get that much cloud cover the black clouds would absorb sunlight and the surface of the earth would have a runaway greenhouse effect and would become as hot as venus. The machines would melt or need to go underground themselves.
(if the clouds are white on top and reflect light away then it would go the opposite direction and cause an Ice Age. Eitherway the Earth is lost to humanity.

For any movie we have to suspend some disbelief. Look at starwars. A solid beam of light 3 feet long...WHAT? you're joking... yes it makes no sense no matter how many books try to rationalize it. It is a cool idea so it's accepted. I mean look at the Darth Maul lightsaber fight...wow that was cool.

The brothers just gave us a huge heaping plateload of cool ideas so there is alot more we are forced to accept all at once. Some of us can and others have anurisims at the rediculousness of it.

I'll proabably try to put my logic on the side and rewatch them when they come out on DVD. I double it will work but the FX are fun to watch.


Jay

SamuraiSlayer
11-11-2003, 08:32 PM
i'm just jumpin in here and i didn't really read very many posts, but a comment about the trilogy is that the first Matrix was very good and new. Then came talk about Reloaded. I thought it would be another case of "Sequel-Syndrome", (Make a movie and then try to continue a story that was already closed off in the first movie). I thought this way because I didn't really see room for continuation of the first movie. But there really wasn't any big victory in the first Matrix. Then I heard that this whole matrix thing was gonna be a trilogy, and then I was kinda relieved from the overuse of un-new special effects in the Matrix: Reloaded. I then a long time after saw The Matrix: Revolutions. It was a satisfying end to the Matrix trilogy. I think out of the 3 that reloaded was the not-so-good movie. The first one was the beginning. The last one was the end. They just kinda used Reloaded to fill the gap and bring up the anticipated excitement of Revolutions. I found out on the extras on the Reloaded DVD (which was worth buying at the least) that the Wachowski Brothers we're planning on a trilogy when they made the Matrix.

uhhh... this is depressing cuz i been writin this for like 20 minutes so, Goodbye!!

jin choung
11-11-2003, 09:01 PM
actually,

i'm definitely on the minority opinion on this but i REALLY LIKE RELOADED!

i totally agree with the 'un-new' special fx statement. what exactly was new about cg looking people? haha... the first movie was much more revolutionary in terms of new ideas in fx.

but first, in terms of eye candy - the action scenes were awesome! perhaps a bit too much altogether but watching certain scenes on dvd are real blast!

i really do think that it may be yuen wo-ping's masterpiece. the chateau weapon fight just keeps amping it up! the tea house fight is beautifully intense and tightly choreographed. the 'real' fight moves in the burly brawl is hugely entertaining... and as a cg guy, seeing the cg is pretty entertaining too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in terms of narrative validity, i loved that it turned the first movie on its head.

it was the perfect dialectic antithesis that hinted at a mindblowing, unimaginable synthesis.

the first movie was a VERY straightforward christ analogy. john the baptist is not the one but will find him, judas iscariot betrays the heroes.... very very straight without a hint of irony.

heck, it was recommended watching at sunday schools!

but then, the really BRILLIANT thing about reloaded is that it flipped it upside down and started shaking!

he is NOT the one. the one is a machine artifice! everything was a trick. there have been six others! the notion of a messiah is a LIE!

WHOA! talk about surprises!

it was perfect in the sheer amount of questions and expectations it raised.

alas, that's why to me, the third movie was the real disappointment because it did not SYNTHESIZE that mind blowing conclusion with answers that just left you incapacitated with wonder.

actually, it was played very much as if the second movie did not exist.

neo is the one after all. we didn't go anywhere new, we just went back. all the thing about the others and the mystery about why neo could stop the sentinels in the real world... the brothers just gave up on the integrity of the philosophical implications and just made it more scifi hoohah.

they wimped out.

so i really do think that it ended disappointingly and reloaded held a lot of promise.

jin

handron
11-14-2003, 12:06 PM
My take for the Matrix Revolutions ending:

Smith and Neo are opposites. One is positive and the other negative according to the Oracle. Therefore, they are equal in power. When Smith overwrote the Oracle he didn’t fully overwrite her code. As what happened when the Merovingian terminated her shell he wasn’t able to terminate her existence. The spirit of her code was hidden away somewhere until she was able to create a new shell for herself and she later did.

Smith is a danger to the world of both man and machine. After he absorbs all the humans and programs in human form he would then gain access to the machines mainframe and overtake that. Thus, destroying both man and machine.

Neo knew this. What he didn’t know was how to stop Smith but he knew he must try. He believed in himself enough to have faith that he would find the answer. He traveled to the machine city and made a deal with the head machine. He told the machines about how Smith’s powers had grown beyond there control (it was the machines that gave Smith his power in an attempt to balance out Neo’s power in the matrix). He said he would stop Smith in exchange for peace. The machines had no choice.

Enter the fight. After a long drawn out battle Neo realized he could never beat Smith. Here’s the big turning point: Smith has dejá vu. This happens because when he absorbed the Oracle he gained the power of sight as the Oracle called it in Reloaded. He says that he’s already seen all this happening and that this is the end. He then says “Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo”. This is the Oracle speaking through Smith. It is understood by the way Smith confusingly says “What did I just say?”. Neo was lying on the ground and gets up because he knew that it was a message coming from the Oracle. She told him that earlier and up until now Smith always called him Mr. Anderson. The Oracle calls him Neo. He finally understands what he must do. It is time for his beginning to end. He willingly lets Smith overwrite him knowing that his positive power will cancel out Smith’s negative power and allow the head machine head to delete them both. Smith never realized that Neo was plugged into the source. We see the Oracle lying on the ground at the end because when Neo and Smith combined they cancelled each other out and the Smith program was forced to release the Oracles code “spirit” that was hidden away somewhere in Smith. It was the remainder of the equation Neo + Smith/Oracle = Oracle. (Neo cancels out Smith).

Neo being plugged in at the Source fulfills the prophecy that the One would return to the Source where the code he was carrying would be disseminated as spoken by the Architect. This allowed the matrix to be reset with the difference that now there would be peace between man and machine.

meshmaster
11-14-2003, 03:00 PM
going to try to get a ticket tonight...

Check out this link - pretty cool: http://abstract.cs.washington.edu/~renacer/ascii-matrix.html.gz?D0=70

meshmaster
11-15-2003, 07:29 AM
I finally saw Revolutions yesterday. It was amazing how few people were there this week but how many were there last week. I think I understand and can relate to the message in the movie, but please keep in mind that this is all as seen from my point of view, not from anyone else's, and I'm not trying to shove you in to my way of thinking....

There were a string of really interesting events that led me to watch the movie last night. I was originally going to watch the movie last week on opening night, but it had already sold out when I got to the ticket booth. That day was cold outside (roughly around freezing, but just a degree or two above), so before I went to the ticket booth, I was going to put a second tee shirt on over the one that I already had on since I had an extra tee in my car in my gym bag, and I did not have a coat - after starting to put it on, I realized that putting it on looked dumb and was not pleasent because it smelled because it has not been washed for a while... so I left it in my car, locked the car and went to the booth, at the booth the tickets were sold out - I had to stand in line outside in front of the booth for a long time in the cold to get to the booth since the ticket line was farily long... after that I realized that I should go back to the car to go home... when all of a sudden I realized that I had locked my keys in my car since I had not put them in my pocket prior to trying to put on the tee shirt that I ended up not putting on... so, here I was in the cold, with a cold (I had a sore throat and a bad cough) stranded at the movie lot on opening day of a movie that I wanted to see but could not... I had left my cell phone in my apartment that morning, so I could not call anyone using that... I had a little money, so I went up to the arcade above the movie theater (it's a little bitty one in a Hollywood theater), and got some change... then I went to a payphone outside of the theater, and tried to call my parents, who live about 25 miles from where I do. The Centurytel phone company, who owned the phone, would not allow me to call my parent's since they are long distance out out of area - and are in another phone company's area. The phone company did connect me to the other phone company's line through the phone booth, but I could not place a call since I did not have a phone card and did not want to place a collect call since I knew mom and dad would hate that... I had no options left since I did not know my girlfriend's work phone number, and my little sister works at nights, so probably was already headed to work. This stupid phone booth had no phone book in it, and I did not know anyone local to call to help me out since all the folk's local numbers that I have are in the phone book entries in my cell phone - I don't have them written down anywhere on my person.... I knew that my girlfriend would eventually come to get me since she was the one that wanted me to get the tickets... but whe was at work as all of this happened, so I stayed at that damn theater lobby for 6 hours waiting for her to get off of work, and then by luck she came by to pick me up since I was not at the apatment. She was all in a huff since she'd asked me to email her back or call her, but I could not do that since I was stuck in the damned theater lobby. The first 45 minutes or so being there were ok because I bought some nachos and cheese to eat as a dinner (it was around 5:00 pm by that time)... the next hour or so was boring, and I finally spent some money playing a couple of the games in that stupid arcade.... that when true boredom set in, and it was really weird watching all these tons of people line up for to see the Matrix while all that I could do was sit there and watch them. After another hour or so I finally picked up a poster that the theater was giving away and started sketching and doodling down ideas on the back of it using a pen that was next to the poster for people to fill out email information to get emails from the theater about upcoming movies, etc. Finally, around 10:15 my girlfriend showed up, just a few minutes after the final line for the last showing of the Matrix was happening......


after all that, I didn't know if I'd really want to see the movie, but since the lines weren't bad, and we got in last night, it was not too bad of a movie...

We got really good seats about halfway back, right in the middle of the middle row. There were maybe 20 people at the movie altogether.... about 5 minutes in to the movie, I took off my glasses, and hung them on the front of my shirt collar. I am nearsighted, and don't absolutely need them in theaters since the image is big enough for me to see most of the details. Anyways, after the movie, we walked out to the car, and then I got a little scared after I realized that I did not have my glasses on, then I finally looked down after getting in the car, and there my glasses were still on my shirt collar.

That made me think about some of the things in the movie - the movie is really about the artificial constructs and facades that we go humans put up and how unimportant that they really are... for instance we hype up premiere nights of movies so much, but why? The movie will still be the same movie the week after it comes out... We go to work and do this and that and the other, bringing ourselves to think of certain things and certain people in certain ways, subdividing them in to classes by race, income, etc., while we shouldn't be doing that. Just because he has a college degree, and she has not gone all the way through elementary school yet, her ideas and well being are just as important as his.... the movie had a lot to do with seeing the world as a child does, like Sati... I think that that's the real goal of the movie - to make us more child-like and see the world in a new (hence the name neo) way. It was interesting to come to this realization at the same time that I disovered that I was seeing the world a different way since I didn't have my glasses on, but had them there so that I can put them on, just as we all can put ourselves in to the place of a child and see the world that way again if we want too since we know that people are really people, and nothing more, a Dr. a Lawyer, a Teacher, a Buddhist, a Christian, a Mother, a Father, a toddler, and all others - we all are just people. The only some things necessary in life - live, eat, sleep, and eventually die - all the other stuff, the cars, the jobs, the worries, etc. are all really unnecceary - just as the Matrix is not really needed but is there to give people a feeling that they have a purpose other than feeding the machines energy...

Now about the plot - Neo allowed Smith to take him over in the movie because it balances the equation. Smith was getting stronger and stronger because Neo was becoming more and more powerful. The Oracle pointed out that this was because the Architect was balancing the equation... so Neo discovered that by letting Smith win, then Smith's purpose of overcoming Neo would no longer exist, so the need for Smith to exist as powerful as he was would no longer be there... I think that the movie is really trying to lead up to the upcoming mmorpg based on the movie... and so if you think about it, the source code, etc, in relation to that, it makes sense... after Neo dissappears, the Matrix resets itself, just as a game would if the computer was rebooted after a virus had the computer locked on for a long time, just as Smith was doing.... anyways, that's my take on it. Sorry this is long, but it could be a lot longer...

meshmaster
11-17-2003, 08:05 AM
I don't think hardcore sci-fi fanatics will like the end of Revolutions much... they sort of made it in to a chick flick... also, I don't know if it's just me or not, but the attack on Zion had a LOT of similarity to the attack on the cities by the Spirits in Final Fantasy.

stib
11-17-2003, 06:36 PM
I've only seen M1, but if you ask me the humans as batteries idea was pretty pants. It would be more convincing if they'd said instead that they were using all the humans as a giant render farm.

So the whole matrix thing was just to keep the conscious mind occupied while the subconscious was working for the machines.