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Spinland
03-03-2013, 01:27 PM
As per my post in general support, it appears as though FFX is not going to be viable for what I'm trying to do, and I don't know how long it will be before it's ever fixed. In the meantime, I'm looking to alternatives.

About the only other game in town seems to be Sasquatch? I'm willing to spring for a license but I have misgivings about the future of Worley Labs, and whether it would even work with 11.5. Anyone have some insight into these issues?

Many thanks in advance!

hrgiger
03-03-2013, 02:08 PM
Well concerning Sasquatch... Personally I find it much more user friendly, I think it renders faster and gives better results in general. However, it has some limitations that aren't nice. It uses shadow maps for shadows/shading and does not have a volumetric or real geometry option, its purely post process which means it will not show in reflections. To be fair to NT, I haven't messed around with FiberFX in 11.5 so I don't know if things are much improved, from the brief info I saw on it, the improvements seem to be mainly cosmetic in terms of the properties panel. Unfortunately, Sas and FiberFx are the only two hair solutions that I am aware of for LightWave at present time.

Spinland
03-03-2013, 02:13 PM
Thanks for the honest appraisal. Will Sas even run on a Mac in 11.5, do you know? From what I could find in search it seems I'd have to go back to using the dongle but I'm okay with that. I have one possible gig lining up where I need the fur to work without the headaches FFX is giving me, and Sas would pay for itself right off the bat, but only if I can actually use it.

Thanks again!

hrgiger
03-03-2013, 02:51 PM
I don't know, I haven't used Sas in some time and I don't use a mac so I can't say whether Sas will work with 11.5. I emailed Steve Worley about a year ago and asked him if they were still going to develop plug-ins at all for LightWave and also asked about the possibility for a follow up to Sasquatch. He seemed positive that they would continue developing plug-ins for Lightwave but from what I remember, he didn't seem too positive about taking Sasquatch any further. I would keep that in mind if you're really looking at buying Sas. And we haven't heard really much of anyhting from them in the last few years. I would be hesitant to buy anything from them until I saw some efidence that they were going to continue to develop or support their plug-ins.

Spinland
03-03-2013, 02:56 PM
Thanks. On the surface that's very good advice, but leaves me kind of stuck with no solution for what I'm trying to accomplish. Until they iron out all the problems with FFX (and it's not just a Mac thing with me, I'm getting the same crashes and lockups in my Windows 7/64 virtual machine) it seems there's no viable alternative.

Sigh.

Kryslin
03-03-2013, 03:38 PM
Sasquatch works fine under 11.5, at least on Windows. It does require a dongle for it's licensing, however.

Supposedly there was a minor update coming for Sasquatch so it would work without a dongle... But I've seen nothing since the mention of that.

Spinland
03-03-2013, 03:44 PM
Thanks, Kryslin. I've sent an inquiry to the sales email address at worley.com asking them whether it'd work. Hopefully there's still someone there to answer--or even to supply the needed serial number for a possible purchase.

I have misgivings, but if it at least worked for basic fur over geometry that's being deformed by morphs then I'd have more than I do now (since FFX does not).

Phil
03-03-2013, 04:41 PM
Sasquatch won't work on current Mac LW versions. All of Worley's plugins have completely blank user interfaces since LW 9.6.1 on Mac. There's no workaround. If you have LW 9.6 available, you can set up elements of the scene in there and then pull them forward via Load-From-Scene, but that's not always doable and you will also have to use 32-bit mode for LW 9.6.1+ to avoid losing the plugin information. Basically, there are various workflow and infrastructure gotches if you go down that path.

Spinland
03-03-2013, 04:47 PM
Thanks for the definitive response, Phil. Not what I wanted to hear, but at least I know.

So as it stands there's no way to use fur on morphed geometry in LW, at least for the Mac. I still maintain this is also a Windows problem, but that's hardly relevant to the main issue. Here's hoping NT fixes this FiberFX bug, and sooner rather than later.

hrgiger
03-03-2013, 06:33 PM
Oh, the fur doesn't followed morphed geometry in FiberFx? I wasn't aware of that. Are you saying that's just a mac issue or a LW issue?

Spinland
03-03-2013, 06:38 PM
Well, for me it's crashing and/or hanging Layout when I apply it to a model with morphs. For now I seem to have found a workaround where I just use 11.0.3 where FFX and morphs seem to be playing fine together.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134047-Fiber-FX-in-11-5-does-not-play-well-with-endomorphs

VermilionCat
03-03-2013, 09:36 PM
Can you bake .mdd and apply ffx to it?
If its a morph issue, it should work.

jwiede
03-03-2013, 10:51 PM
Thanks for the honest appraisal. Will Sas even run on a Mac in 11.5, do you know? From what I could find in search it seems I'd have to go back to using the dongle but I'm okay with that. I have one possible gig lining up where I need the fur to work without the headaches FFX is giving me, and Sas would pay for itself right off the bat, but only if I can actually use it.

Thanks again!
Nope, Sas was never updated for Cocoa UI requirements, and thus won't run in MacLW beyond 9.6. Unfortunately, there's not much indication that situation will change any time soon either. Which is a huge shame, as limitations aside, I still find the results it produces significantly more realistic than anything I've ever been able to get out of FFX, esp. factoring in amount of effort required. YMMV, of course.

jwiede
03-03-2013, 10:55 PM
Sasquatch won't work on current Mac LW versions. All of Worley's plugins have completely blank user interfaces since LW 9.6.1 on Mac. There's no workaround.
Worley used custom UIs based on the LW API HostDisplayInfo(). The change to Cocoa (as of 9.6.1) also meant anyone using HostDisplayInfo() had to basically rework their custom UI code from scratch -- that rework hasn't happened (yet?) for the Worley LW plugins on Mac.

jwiede
03-03-2013, 11:26 PM
Can you bake .mdd and apply ffx to it?
If its a morph issue, it should work.
There are a _lot_ of morph uses where the cost of baking (loss of further edit/anim ability, as well as baking time) isn't really practical, unfortunately.

VermilionCat
03-03-2013, 11:40 PM
Yeah, I understand that but he seems so desperate and lookin for a temporary workaround so...
FFX needs a lot of attention anyway. It still crashes too often.

bazsa73
03-04-2013, 02:22 AM
Yeah, I understand that but he seems so desperate and lookin for a temporary workaround so...
FFX needs a lot of attention anyway. It still crashes too often.

It crashes but now it is much better than it used to be. In version 10.1 if you needed a huge amount frustration you just fired up FFX.
It crashed for example if you added a weight map onto an active FFX object in layout.
Or it just crashed out of fancy.
THis new 11.5 FFX caused me pleaseure almost. I mean it felt reliable. But yes, sometimes it crashes. Maya crashes as well.
And the look of the fur has been improved. I love that. So for this money I think it's a good value, sure it is not appropriate for weta's kingkong but
as a freelancer asset it is nice.

Spinland
03-04-2013, 02:43 AM
Thanks for the ideas, guys. For now it appears that reverting to LW 11.0.3 has fixed my main problems. For this project FiberFX in 11.5 just isn't working. I can always hope they get it right in the next patch.

lino.grandi
03-04-2013, 03:39 AM
Thanks. On the surface that's very good advice, but leaves me kind of stuck with no solution for what I'm trying to accomplish. Until they iron out all the problems with FFX (and it's not just a Mac thing with me, I'm getting the same crashes and lockups in my Windows 7/64 virtual machine) it seems there's no viable alternative.

Sigh.

What are you trying to accomplish?

kfinla
03-04-2013, 04:18 AM
I think his issue is FFX guides not ridding along with morph targets. I haven't personally tried this, but I thought I saw people using meta link, or fx linker to make separate polygon islands just for FFX ride along like a wrap deformer.

UnCommonGrafx
03-04-2013, 04:43 AM
Hey Spinland,
Are you using relax in your setups? I surmise you are based on your statement of hangups.
With relax on... any number not zero...it hangs for 2mins to 2HOURS while it does SOMETHING.
Then, it renders this 1min30sec frame.

(All kinds of body machinations going on here to represent the angst felt at those moments.)

Try it again, on a fresh restart and without using relax in the fiberfx panel.

Or so I've seen.

lino.grandi
03-04-2013, 05:24 AM
I think his issue is FFX guides not ridding along with morph targets. I haven't personally tried this, but I thought I saw people using meta link, or fx linker to make separate polygon islands just for FFX ride along like a wrap deformer.

There are several example in the content dealing with this. I really would like to help here...would be cool to take a look at some specific some simple content/images!

jwiede
03-04-2013, 06:25 AM
Might be best to split-off discussion of the FFX-v-morphs issue to a different thread with a clearer title, as it'll be difficult to find again later with this thread title (and the thread's original Q&As have separate value).

erikals
03-04-2013, 06:41 AM
I think his issue is FFX guides not ridding along with morph targets. I haven't personally tried this, but I thought I saw people using meta link, or fx linker to make separate polygon islands just for FFX ride along like a wrap deformer.

yes, it was a problem for eyelashes that Chris Jones ran into.

not sure if 11.5 fixes it, haven't been able to check 11.5 or 11.5 content just yet...
couldn't at first eye-sight find something similar in the FFX 11.5 content though... >

ZBrush_FiberMesh_scene
Furry_Tail
Furry_Animals
FiberFX_Leopard_Fur
Fantasy_Rock
Carpet_Fibers
Bundle_Hair
Bundle_Animation
Animated_Braids

Spinland
03-04-2013, 06:55 AM
Well, by setting the display sub patch level to zero I seem to be able to do F9 renders now without crashing, and I can set the sub patch order to last which also seems to mitigate the fur following the deformations. The more critical problem now is once FFX is applied and the scene is saved I cannot open it again; it hangs at loading plugins. Deleting all third party plugins doesn't appear to help.

Lino, I just emailed you the character and a pre and post scene file demonstrating this. Thanks.

Spinland
03-04-2013, 07:01 AM
Might be best to split-off discussion of the FFX-v-morphs issue to a different thread with a clearer title, as it'll be difficult to find again later with this thread title (and the thread's original Q&As have separate value).

I actually did start a thread focused on the FFX issues, and started this one intended only to ask about alternatives. Guess this one drifted some. Here is the link to my original thread:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134047-Fiber-FX-in-11-5-does-not-play-well-with-endomorphs

Spinland
03-04-2013, 09:30 AM
...but he seems so desperate and lookin for a temporary workaround so...

Heh. Yeah, I've come across pretty caffeinated about this, huh? Sorry about that. I have an up-coming high profile demo for a very lucrative potential client, and this sequence is something I really wanted to include. I reckon the long shifts I've been pulling trying to get ready, coupled with feeling stonewalled on this, got me pretty tense.

Very much appreciate everyone pitching in to help. This forum really rocks. Thanks!

Oh, and the communications link to Worley Labs is still very much alive and well. I received a very nice and prompt response to my inquiry. Not the answer I wanted, and it echoes what you gys have already told me, but it's nice to know there's still someone there answering email.

prometheus
03-04-2013, 05:45 PM
cool things with sasquatch, nice to create grass fields, not sure fiberfx could handle that better and as efficient?
forces affecting the sasquatch, not sure here either if it works kind of the same on fibers for fiberFX.

not soo cool, not easy to preview..not showing up in reflections, but unless having a grass field next to water ora shiny spaceship flying over.. or someone running around with a mirror in the grass, or simply looking at your hairy face/butt in the mirror (butt side against mirror means you canīt see it anyway) and thatīs no biggy:)
By the way, is there a way to 3d print hair guides for transplantation:)

Michael

Spinland
03-04-2013, 07:07 PM
Heh. It sounded like a pretty cool plugin and I might still have been interested in trying it out, but alas it's a non-starter on the Mac. Here's the response I got from the email inquiry I sent (which just echoes what's already been said above):


Unfortunately, no. While Sasquatch does indeed support 64 bit on Windows, there is no 64 bit version for the Mac. The reasons are convoluted, but mostly have to do with the need for a rewrite of the FPrime GUI in Cocoa to support LW's GUI code.

They didn't volunteer any indication of a willingness to undertake that rewrite.

Hail
03-06-2013, 10:27 AM
As per my post in general support, it appears as though FFX is not going to be viable for what I'm trying to do, and I don't know how long it will be before it's ever fixed. In the meantime, I'm looking to alternatives.

About the only other game in town seems to be Sasquatch? I'm willing to spring for a license but I have misgivings about the future of Worley Labs, and whether it would even work with 11.5. Anyone have some insight into these issues?

Many thanks in advance!

There was one under development a while ago called "True Hair" but I lost track of it.
Not sure how it turned out.

jeric_synergy
03-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Oh, the fur doesn't followed morphed geometry in FiberFx? I wasn't aware of that. Are you saying that's just a mac issue or a LW issue?
It'd be clumsy/inconvenient, but can't you back out the deformations as an MDD file and apply that? I'm pretty sure FFX will work with displaced baked geometry.

EDIT: oops, sorry for the topic drift.

jeric_synergy
03-06-2013, 11:02 AM
There are several example in the content dealing with this. I really would like to help here...would be cool to take a look at some specific some simple content/images!

Lino, FWIW the op posted content in the other thread, linked above. (I've dl'd it but haven't looked at it yet.)

erikals
03-06-2013, 11:12 AM
There was one under development a while ago called "True Hair" but I lost track of it.
Not sure how it turned out.

it was cancelled some time ago.

prometheus
03-06-2013, 02:49 PM
it was cancelled some time ago.

Yes...and that was trueart (sensei) ...not sure why..maybe theré was not enough demand or need for it when fiberFX was employed, seemed that people didnīt like it or at
that time the rendering wasnīt on pair with FiberFX, however...the styling and editing in modeler seemed very nice though.
But this I can not say much about.. nor should I say to much about, Thatīs something that sensei should do if he already hasnīt in other threads.

Michael

Spinland
03-06-2013, 03:05 PM
Lino, FWIW the op posted content in the other thread, linked above. (I've dl'd it but haven't looked at it yet.)

I hooked up with Lino via email and sent him the original files that started my concerns. Thanks for pointing out my other thread! :)