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View Full Version : EDGES! Edges, and edges



serious bender
11-06-2003, 12:41 AM
Modeler - need real edge editing, selection, and beveling/extrusion options. Check out Wings 3D - it's FREE and it has these powerful features.

Edge weighting for subdivisions...reduces ridiculous and unnecessary geometry.

Edges in Layout....

Really, LW should have had these with 7.0...

EyesClosed
11-06-2003, 01:10 AM
Don't hold your breath. Real edges have been requested for ages now, but Newtek would have to totally overhaul Modeler to implement them. I'm guessing LightWave will never have edges (probably when Newtek does a rewrite like Luxology is doing).

Nemoid
11-06-2003, 02:26 AM
I have to agree here... modeler structure is not projected for edges and an implementation can be possible but difficult from a programmer POV.

but maybe a good programmer can give a different answer.

I see that edges are particularly useful for creases in subpatch, with less geometry, and that's the main reason for asking them.

serious bender
11-06-2003, 12:15 PM
Although at first I was hesitant, I've been spending more and more time going between Nendo and Wings 3d. The Nendo demo you can get from Izware's site is pretty much fully functional. The only limitation is that it will only save the .ndo format. But that's fine - you can load it into Wings 3d and save an .obj.

The lack of edges is making me take a serious look at a Modo/Messiah combo. I'm already on the verge of plunking down the cash for Messiah:Animate. Like someone else mentioned, it's been faster than LW since its inception, and that's with LW open as well!

Funny thing is, that would still be sticking with an (improved) Lightwave geneaology.

In its defense, LW still has a lot of developer support, the best free plugs in the industry, and a strong (in spite of the lack of edges) modeler. Rendering is still very good, but Maya fixed the chink in its armor with MentalRay, and SI did that a long time ago. Now, with the node-interface of Messiah:Render, LW is fast becoming an Also-ran. I would hate to see that happen.

Dodgy
11-06-2003, 05:51 PM
After seeing what LW can do without edges in terms of modelling, I only really think you need edges for subdivision creases. All the other operations which you might need edges for seem to be ably done just with point or poly selections. I came from Imagine, which had edges, and at first I was like 'LW doesn't have them????' but I got over it, and now subd's are about the only reason I can see to need them. I can still cope just by adding more geometry, but that's not as clean. I'd guess you might have to wait till 9 or 10 for this...

FI's jigsaw and FI's wrinkle plugins are good for the geometry addtions to make nice edges in the meantime!

Looks like he's taken his web page down for philosophical reasons?

Quote from the web page:
In free plug in
It reached the point where doubt is felt
(Free software
In various senses
When there are also times when adverse effect is given
It reached the point where you think)
Being, you stop for a while.

Shame, he had some fantastic plugins...

Exper
11-07-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
FI's jigsaw and FI's wrinkle plugins are good for the geometry addtions to make nice edges in the meantime!

Looks like he's taken his web page down for philosophical reasons?Available here:
FI'S JUNK BOX / DOWNLOAD INDEX
http://f23.aaacafe.ne.jp/~fisjunk/plugin/plugin.php

;)

Bye.

Dodgy
11-07-2003, 03:10 AM
Thank you very much :)

hrgiger
11-07-2003, 06:22 AM
Perhaps an actual developer could tell us if Edges could be done in Lightwave?:rolleyes:

Exper
11-07-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
I came from Imagine, which had edges...Dodgy...
do you remeber Imagine's "QuickEdges"? ;)

Bye.

Dodgy
11-07-2003, 10:10 AM
Oh god, now you're dragging up some long buried memories :)

I do know I liked the IK system, you could lock and unlock bones and drag any joint around like mirai. And this was 10 years ago...

Exper
11-07-2003, 10:23 AM
Yep... sweet memories! :D

Bye.

serious bender
11-07-2003, 12:34 PM
In light of the fact that it will probably be a while until we have edges in LW, which plug/s are the best for dealing with pseudo edges, then? FI's Jigsaw and Wrinkle plugs have already been mentioned...

Dodgy
11-07-2003, 07:32 PM
Depends what you want to do with them :)

There are reallly a bucket load of free plugins out there, a good place to start looking in www.flay.com which has a fairly comprehensive database of every plugin for LW. You can search by free/commercial, modeler/layout, version of LW and keywords. Very very useful resource...For plugins I use a lot:

Daz edgebevel, though this might only be available to registered Daz customers now, it was free.
KZ mentory, more bevelling.
di2 tools inc di2extender (extrudes point selections into faces).
edge tools, add edges by selecting circles on edges it cuts faces. it has snaps and all sorts of useful bits. http://www.dstorm.co.jp/dslib/

And FI's wrinkle and jigsaw are also very good.

Sculley
11-21-2003, 03:16 PM
I know this is a little off subject but I think it needs pointing out... When people tyalk about Maya, Max etc.. they always say they have Mental Ray etc.. These are not Maya and are packages you can use with them.. Lightwaves renderer out the box is unmatched by Maya's rather slow and iffy render... and as for Max wheres the raytracing let alone anything else.. To get any decent renderer you ahve to go to a third party for these packages!

Another thing is.. not sure if anyone knew but you can use LW with Renderman!!!! I have done here and it does give gr8 results.

End of the day.. LW's renderer is one of the best off the shelf in the box engines that few rival.

anyways... back to the subject

I dont see why people get worked up on not haveing the control of single edges... at render time all packages convert this into geometry to render it. So why not control it directly with the geometry and know exactly what the geometry is doing?

There are onyla few reasons why I to can see why edges are used.. subd's maybe useful but its not like the feature is seriously a requirement. I think its more people are used to quirky control methods.

Thats my five pence.

Sculley

hrgiger
11-21-2003, 07:43 PM
I think we're talking about a few different things here...

If you're talking about splitting edges, well, we'll be able to do that with LW8 and we can do it now with various plug-ins like Daz edgebevel and jigsaw, etc....

I think what we would like to see in LW modeler is Sub-patch Edge sharpening which we can't do now. If we weight a point in lightwave, we're doing just that and not an edge. Which means the whole area gets sharpened and not along a single edge which is what we want.

Thinking about it, I don't see how a re-write of modeler is necessary to implement edge sharpening. The curve of a sub-patch form in it's raw form is controlled with numerical values and surely there must be a way to have user input to modify those values.

EyesClosed
11-22-2003, 03:56 PM
Another thing is.. not sure if anyone knew but you can use LW with Renderman!!!! I have done here and it does give gr8 results.

Too bad the RIB exporters for LW are really poor.


End of the day.. LW's renderer is one of the best off the shelf in the box engines that few rival.

You should really check out other apps. Mental Ray is built right into XSI. It's a much better renderer than LW's. C4D has Final Render, which is clearly a better renderer than LW's, too. As for Max and Maya, both have integrated Mental Ray. Sure, they're not perfect, but they get the job done.


I dont see why people get worked up on not haveing the control of single edges... at render time all packages convert this into geometry to render it. So why not control it directly with the geometry and know exactly what the geometry is doing?

People want edges for modeling NOT rendering. Being able to select edges greatly increases workflow speed.

Sculley
11-22-2003, 06:06 PM
Yes.. I agree with you on some things there.. I use Softimage.. but I reverted to LW because its interface feels clunky and I'm not keen on many of its features and approachs. I've used it too years and for me its not right. Yes it does have Mental Ray built in but its not ther fastest engine in the world when your strapped on time and resources.

RIB exporters are few on LW but as a whole they do give good results.

Maya and Max are really let down by there renderers.. buying an extra package at extra cost on top of a pricey box is something I'd rather not have to do.

I've used Maya for two years and with Renderman its a very nice package but at the time I was using it even Renderman support wasnt as good as Mental Ray.

I agree LW's renderer has started to age but its not like its set in stone that you cant use external plugs for anything you require.

anyways.. its all just opinions / or which fit the job your doing. LW happens to fit mine with very good results.

Back to the lines.. I just have yet had problems with not haveing it there.. I can see why people might want it.. (selecting edges.. instead of lines) but I thought we were talking about being able to set the sharpness of edges on subd polys?

Just wondering about this edge thing selection.. in LW would you actually have edges in that poly's have an edge? the poly just seems to me as a fill between what ever points.. and not as such an area with in a fixed edge.. the poly's boundaries to me are the edge.. so LW would probably need a re-code inorder to be able to associate some kind of edge?

anyways.. enough natter from me.. I've jsut got confused about the posts in this one :)

EyesClosed
11-22-2003, 08:50 PM
Maya and Max are really let down by there renderers.. buying an extra package at extra cost on top of a pricey box is something I'd rather not have to do.

Both Maya and Max (latest version) come integrated with Mental Ray. There's no additional cost at all.

Elmar Moelzer
11-22-2003, 09:48 PM
Both Maya and Max (latest version) come integrated with Mental Ray. There's no additional cost at all.

There is no additional cost, if you dont plan to use a renderfarm!
AFAIK they come with licenses for two CPUs only.
Also AFAIK, if you want to use them for network- rendering you will ahve to buy an extra renderserver- license and additional seats of Mental Ray per CPU (not per computer).
CU
Elmar

geoff3dnz
11-23-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Sure, they're not perfect, but they get the job done.The same can be said for LightWave's renderer. ;)

colkai
11-26-2003, 08:53 AM
At the risk of bringing this back on topic ;)

I have tried out Wings3D and how it does 'edges' and ..well. Wow! - this would be a very useful tool in LW, it's UV mapper is not half bas as well.

I wonder if anyone at Newtek has had a chance to play with Wings to see what sort of features could be implemented.

I love that you can select an edge or loop then bevel just that, and for creating pipe joints etc, it is really good.

Looks like I have a new tool in my toolbox, until such time as LW gets edges of course ;)

serious bender
11-26-2003, 01:29 PM
That's what I'm talking about - WOW.

Edges are not just a fancy extra. They really help improve workflow, and there are operations that can't be achieved through the point selection workarounds.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I love LW's modeler, but after using Wings 3D for a bit, and going back, I really miss edges.