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Thomas Helzle
02-22-2013, 01:01 PM
Hey, I just wanted to say a big, fat THANKS!

After all the very frustrating years where LightWave fell more and more behind in many ways which then was topped by the Core disaster, I'm currently finding my way back into it and while 11 was already quite good, 11.5 feels like the real thing finally.

After millions of threads about crappy examples and presentations, missing features, "what has to change that LW will get strong again" and what not, I feel like in another world ATM.

- 11.5 does exactly what I would do. Fixing or improving the small annoying things, introducing some glimpses on the future (Transform tool in Modeller for instance) and still packs some massive features on top. Wow.
- The Update-PDF is very well done and looks gorgeous!
- The Examples are very good and fun to look at.
- The What's new video is something I actually send to colleagues, because it is so well done and interesting.
- Lino posting plugins and scripts to enhance the Genoma Workflow.
- Rob asking what videos we want to see more of and the first already there.
- Users posting videos, tutorials and examples.
- Matt giving us the robot arm scene to dissect.
- ...

The forum seems to boil with REAL threads instead of all those endless blablabla things which made me avoid it for years now...

How cool is that! :-)

1.5 years ago I stopped paying maintenance to Autodesk for Softimage XSI, although I was heavily invested in it, both work-, knowledge- and money-wise.

I bought modo 601, hoping it could be my new main tool, and while it's okay, half of it doesn't click with me at all.

Now I'm back in Lightwave and to my big surprise, I love it.
Sure there are still some things I personally find very annoying or are used to do very different from XSI, but overall, I was back into it in no time.

I do my first commercial job in it currently and it works great.

Very very unexpected - but makes me very happy :dance:

Thanks to everybody involved!!!!!!! - if the team continues like this, it will work out. :bowdown:

Cheers,

Tom

Matt
02-22-2013, 02:03 PM
Wow, thanks Thomas! It's so nice to hear that all the hard work the team is putting in is recognised and appreciated! We feel we're on a good path, and can only get stronger from here on out! Make sure you send us those things you find annoying, I want to kill those!

:)

Cheers
Matt

Spinland
02-22-2013, 02:15 PM
Hey, I'll add my "me, too!" to the mix. I drifted away from LW (and all things 3D) around the time of [8] due to the pressures of trying to pay the bills as a software engineer. I got back in the saddle as 11 came out and I really feel like I've come back at an amazing time to be a Lightwaver! :)

UnCommonGrafx
02-22-2013, 02:44 PM
Totally agree though I never went away.


The LW3dG has really shined.

Oedo 808
02-22-2013, 02:54 PM
I was talking to Matt the other day and he told me that since joining NewTek he has managed to single-handedly steer LightWave out of danger and on to its current, most agreeable course.*











*This post may not be true in any way, shape or form.

Thomas Helzle
02-22-2013, 02:55 PM
Hey Matt :-)

You definitely are on the right track.

"Short" list:
- In Layout, Navigate the camera view directly in the viewport. So much faster and intuitive to find interesting views than moving the camera object around by hand.

- Develop "Package Scene" in Layout into a fully functional alternative scene save. Not much missing, just allow to rename the scene itself directly in the dialogue and make the image sequence options also available for non-sequence images (I always keep all of them in the main image folder).

- For people like me who find the Hub as unreliable as the other sync option without Hub, integrate a K.I.S.S. "Reload Object" button in Layout and Modeller and a "Reload all Objects" in Layout. This way, I could easily and securely do all my sync by hand. Less is more in this case.

- In Modeller, make it possible to drop a selection by clicking in the viewport-background when no tool is active and no modifier keys are pressed. Maybe add selections to the undo list.

- In Modeller and Layout, if possible implement "Sticky Keys", that is, holding down a shortcut like "T" for Move continuously will make the tool active as long as I hold the key and returns to the previous mode/tool when I release the key. I go a bit nuts with all the tool-dropping and selection dropping. Doesn't need to work for every tool, but should be possible at least for Move, Rotate and Scale and their descendants, those you use all the time and often use without setting any options anyway.

- Modeller: Make the new Translate tool work with small objects and give it a stick-key too. Love it! :-)
Give it options to:
- use the Modeller-Action-Center.
- only jump to a clicked position but keep world rotation.
- allow for 2D-scale as well, like the plane-dots for translation. I often want to change for instance the diameter of a cylinder in x any z but not y. I need that more often than plane-translation, since I often need to scale two axes exactly the same, while translations are easy to do one by one. A preference maybe or on-screen switch. Quadrangles instead of circles in plane-scale-mode?

- Modeller: Make it possible to switch the right-mouse-lasso selection to a rectangular selection via preferences. So much faster (for me).

- Modeller: For People with a large monitor, show more Layers on top.

Hopefully nothing too complicated, but that would make my life so much more fun ;-)

Cheers and thanks!

Tom

Waves of light
02-22-2013, 02:59 PM
I have to agree. For me it boils down to their marketing campaign and how Rob has put the stronger team members out into the community (Matt, Lino, Chuck, etc.) This along with listening to what users want. Ok, we're not going to get everything, but LW11.5 is a massive step in the right direction.

It's been so well marketed since the 'opps we've launched our new website, but people weren't suppose to find it' stunt ;), through Siggraph (Ustream for us guys over the pond who couldn't make was excellent) and the teasing launch dates.

As for the brand... the new look site and documentation not only assist the product, they enhance it. They look so damn professional (well done Ben) and again, the release of the Lightwave Magazine (great design from Claudia and Johanna) was a clever touch, a little teaser as to what some users were doing with LW11 and release notes about what to expect in 11.5

It looks to be bringing back older LW users and hopefully bringing on board new ones. Good times.

jasonwestmas
02-22-2013, 02:59 PM
Way to save NT's arse Matt! :D.

I was disappointed with quite a few things with LW 10-11.0. 11.5 is far more solid. The newer features are starting to work together far more creatively for a change in a layering type of fashion instead of hacking together things that aren't necessarily designed to do so.

philthorn
02-22-2013, 03:01 PM
I'm another returnee. :-)
I left during the CORE debacle (sorry) and used "other" packages for the last couple years. It broke my heart because I had been the biggest Lightwave fan and user since Toaster 1.0! I am so excited LW is back and better than ever.

Thank you LWG for re-energizing my workflow and making me a born-again LW user!

OnlineRender
02-22-2013, 03:08 PM
Way to save NT's arse Matt! :D.

its not just Matt in there Team, credit to everyone!

lino.grandi
02-22-2013, 03:21 PM
Wow, thanks Thomas! It's so nice to hear that all the hard work the team is putting in is recognised and appreciated! We feel we're on a good path, and can only get stronger from here on out! Make sure you send us those things you find annoying, I want to kill those!

:)

Cheers
Matt

I have to fully quote Matt!

Thank you for such a positive feedback!

nickdigital
02-22-2013, 03:28 PM
What I find exciting is I think the LW3DG hasn't hit their full stride yet too.

jasonwestmas
02-22-2013, 03:30 PM
its not just Matt in there Team, credit to everyone!


There's a team? ;)

rcallicotte
02-22-2013, 04:12 PM
Thanks to everyone - I'm thankful (me too)!! Good release!!!

GraphXs
02-22-2013, 04:19 PM
YAY YAY! I want to say thank you to everyone in the LW3DG! Lightwave has some great new tools that I get to show off at work and get to mix it with our autodesk pipeline. I've also been enjoying the LW/Unity pipeline!

I do have some minor request for future releases.

-For the FBX/Unity/LWS save out can we please add "Save or Export Selected" PLEASE!!!!!! Also this would fix the Light/Camera null always coming in.
-Morphs in Unity would also make LW/Unity a great addition if possible. Come on LW3DG be the first to support native morphs and vertex data!
-Screen Space parenting would be great, Love the Genoma Tools Lino, but it would be cool to parent with some key combo like the schematic view in 3D Space. (like maya)
-Can we have Scene States and Material override states...Passport is a great start and I know Janas is sweet, but I would love to see NT match Max in that area.
-LWSN setup...can it be more easier, maybe I'm just not that smart but I find it difficult. If someone can walk me through it I would love to use LW at work as an optional renderer beside MAx/Vray on our farm.


Love Love Love it! Great Job!

KevinL
02-22-2013, 05:20 PM
Ditto! Ditto! Ditto......
Chamfer, Tweak, etc.....

I was a 9.6'r with resentments. Now I am a 11.5'r with delight... :)

Thank You!

lwanmtr
02-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Im very much on board...when LW 11 was introduced, I wanted the upgrade...but when i saw what 11.5 had, I stopped at nothing to get it, and have been happy ever since.

LW3DG has really raised LW to modern standards and I hope they can continue to keep up the goodness.

bobakabob
02-22-2013, 06:10 PM
Agreed, kudos to the team for a superb release. Great to see Lino openly discuss improving animation tools in Lightwave and delivering Genoma. VPR has transformed the workflow and the renderer keeps getting better and better. Nice to see Modeler getting some attention and the integration with ZBrush is also greatly appreciated :)

dnch
02-22-2013, 06:25 PM
what is LW3DG?

lwanmtr
02-22-2013, 06:26 PM
Lightwave 3D Group ....the name of the Lightwave devs :)

realgray
02-22-2013, 09:57 PM
What's this robot arm Matt provided that your talking about?

realgray
02-22-2013, 10:04 PM
Never mind I found it :)

nickdigital
02-22-2013, 10:04 PM
What's this robot arm Matt provided that your talking about?

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?115716-Free-Scene-Mechanical-Arm

chikega
02-22-2013, 11:00 PM
As Thomas already knows, through our personal correspondences, I'm in the same boat ... a long-time user who is finding his way back to LW. I started using LW in 1997 after the demise of Impulse Imagine and used it consistently from 1997 to about 2007 for most of my medical illustrations ... it was around 2005-6 that I started wandering, dabbling in Silo3d, messiah, blender, houdini and modo. I always kept LW upgraded during this time and used it for a few projects, but it wasn't my main app any longer. Now I find myself getting back into LW, rediscovering my muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts. I'm still more comfortable modeling in other apps, but I hope to use LW for dental animations and rendering. I love the node editor in LW compared to something like modo's Shader Tree - I learned how to use it but was never thrilled about it.

Rob, Lino, Matt et al. all deserve a big round of applause for the injecting synergy back into LW. There's a sense of camaraderie and a willingness to help others in this community that makes it feel even better to be back.

Thomas Helzle
02-23-2013, 06:18 AM
Hehehe - yeah, same here.

I am happy to have been away during the drought, Softimage XSI is a brilliant package and I learned tons of stuff and worked on projects I wouldn't have worked on without it, but at the same time I found out things about myself, what works for me and what not, and what's really important to me.
One of those things is not to have to deal with entities like Autodesk.
Another is, that sometimes too much options and complexity kills creativity.
I knew that as a theoretical concept all along, but now I know it from the inside.

Lightwave on the other hand triggers creativity for me. It is like a workshop full of tools. Not every saw works with every drill, but if you're inventive, you can build everything.
There is a brilliant German brain-researcher, Gerald Hüther. He often explains in his lectures how the brain is stimulated to grow by "having problems".
Solvable problems.
Problems that can be worked out.
Sounds like LightWave to me ;-)

Working in some of the big packages puts you in a curious place. On one hand you get the impression that you can do everything. But you may also get the feeling of inadequacy, that you are too stupid to do those things. Or you're simply overwhelmed by all the possibilities and get stuck like the proverbial donkey between the haystacks.

Finally: In my opinion we reached a turning point in the 3D industry a while ago.
10 and 20 years ago, 3D was a very special field, something only some people could do, it was well paid and quite exclusive.
This is over.
Everybody can do it with todays tools and since it looks cool from the outside, many want in, which makes the prices tumble.
Recently I read on a forum how John Carter somehow looked like every other movie. Big crowds of alien creatures killing or running or whatnot. Everything is possible - how comes it's so boring?
Because "everything" doesn't make a good movie.

And "everything" also doesn't make a good 3D package for creatives. Especially Freelancers.

Sorry for the long post, but this is part of why I think the new plan is better than the Core idea.
I actually want to keep Lightwave, not replace it.
Growing and improving: Yes.
But not turning it into a bad copy of MayaxSIdini4D ;-)

Cheers!

Tom

UnCommonGrafx
02-23-2013, 06:44 AM
Tom,
Nice name!

"MayaxSIdini4D "

Netvudu
02-23-2013, 06:45 AM
I think this was clearly Rob´s view all the time. Not killing the old workflows, but improving on them

Thomas Helzle
02-23-2013, 06:51 AM
Yeah, and with 11.5 I think we can see that it will actually get there and work.

Good times :-)

Cheers,

Tom

lardbros
02-23-2013, 06:59 AM
I agree with Thomas entirely... definitely the greatest release so far... and bound to get better with 12 too!

I'm fully invested in LW's future to be honest... I pretty much keep my foot in the door as a personal thing, despite using it at work for making sure meshes are clean (if we're struggling to find errors in 3dsMax). Modeller is still superb for sorting tricky meshes out... all the selection toolset is perfect!

I digress... I think LW11.5 is exactly how it should be done... the videos being pumped out on YouTube are professional, great for beginners, and simple... it's where LW is struggling currently, and that's growing the userbase of younger people.


GREAT WORK... GREAT PRODUCT... GREAT MARKETING... GREAT TEAM!!! :D I wouldn't have been saying this a few years ago that's for sure! Ha! Yay

philthorn
02-23-2013, 07:04 AM
Well said Tom.

You have much the same experience I've had over the last few years.

It's good to be back with my old friend Lightwave. :-)

-Phil

Thomas Helzle
02-23-2013, 08:04 AM
It's interesting, isn't it?
Gives the "prodigal son" story a whole new dimension.
How much one learns "abroad".
And what one brings back.

Cheers,

Tom

jasonwestmas
02-23-2013, 08:59 AM
Another is, that sometimes too much options and complexity kills creativity.
I knew that as a theoretical concept all along, but now I know it from the inside.



I don't necessarily agree with that. (Of course you said "Sometimes") Complexity and having a lot of options is never the enemy if we understand the project at hand. The way I understand the destruction of creativity: It's the lack of interactive engagement between the user and the tools; Also, having little cooperation between the tool-sets to complete the entirety of the subject; that's what kills the flow of creativity. It's what I call "Getting Lost in The Forest of Tools". Finding the right kind of "CG materials" in the forest to fit your emotional or functional design. Those "materials" could be found ANYWHERE.

To "Get Things DONE to emotional or functional spec" we simply need to be consciously aware of what level of flexibility we are after and WHERE the flexibility needs to occur. All too often I think we get sucked into ideas that are designed to be flexible almost everywhere, at every point of the process and that is a ridiculous way to think and is quite inefficient. Ironically we get these ideas from the same people who teach us to be extremely efficient with our workflow and then show us a hundred ways to get technically bogged down in writing scripts all day. I'm not blaming them and there is certainly a need for people to write tools to fit the project; simply saying that we need to be able to identify processes that are just going to slow us down unnecessarily. By unnecessary I mean bringing in the big guns of tool design that may not give us the desired results OR are simply not needed to reflect the context of emotions or functionality within a performance or presentation. However, you can definitely go back to something extremely technical you learned and harness it and mold it to your new idea. The trick is to be able to "Mold" the previously designed workflow to conform to the new conceptual idea, that's the hard part, and I am blown away by anyone who can write code and also understands the mind and context of an artistic performance.

For an example, I can build a really complex spine for a biped character but do I really want to do that same spine for 6 other characters? That is waaay too time consuming for a small team I'm afraid. It's much better to create the spine for a character that may need it based on a storyboard/animatic of some type. When we create the context and make it known to everyone then we save a lot of time designing and building the functionality. Plus we may find out that we don't need that level of flexibility. Of course this is true for all technical workflows and not just when rigging.

Thomas Helzle
02-23-2013, 09:09 AM
Sorry if that wasn't clear: This is not about agreeing or not, it's just my personal journey and experience.

Cheers,

Tom

jasonwestmas
02-23-2013, 09:28 AM
Sorry if that wasn't clear: This is not about agreeing or not, it's just my personal journey and experience.

Cheers,

Tom

I wasn't challenging your journey and experience and expecting you to agree with me. Just thinking out loud. :) Cheers.

philthorn
02-23-2013, 09:34 AM
I find my self in both camps of thought. There are some programs that I just "feel" more creative in than others and it is hard to quantify.

When I started learning ZBrush it felt anything but creative to me but I persevered and now it is a completely relaxing, creative experience. LW wasn't always something I was totally at ease with but I grew to learn it's little idiosyncrasies and embraced them to the point that I just "knew" how to get things done. I'm at a point where I need fast, efficient tools that when simply trying a new effect doesn't require two months+ of training myself.

LW is definitely back on track and I feel it will get back to being recognized as a heavy-lifter in the CGI/FX community.

-Phil

jasonwestmas
02-23-2013, 09:56 AM
I find my self in both camps of thought. There are some programs that I just "feel" more creative in than others and it is hard to quantify.

When I started learning ZBrush it felt anything but creative to me but I persevered and now it is a completely relaxing, creative experience. LW wasn't always something I was totally at ease with but I grew to learn it's little idiosyncrasies and embraced them to the point that I just "knew" how to get things done. I'm at a point where I need fast, efficient tools that when simply trying a new effect doesn't require two months+ of training myself.

LW is definitely back on track and I feel it will get back to being recognized as a heavy-lifter in the CGI/FX community.

-Phil

Yes, I find it takes a lot of meditation to really decide which tools I find useful for my own creativity. Sometimes it's lightwave and sometime's it's somewhere else, even with a pencil in hand. It's not an easy decision when deciding what to focus in on verses knowing "enough" to accomplish the creative goal, whatever that is. I find it makes the decision easier when I have a specific idea already in mind or on paper of course. When that is accomplished then I can decide how deep I need to go into the technical.

LW's nodal path I think is a good start to all of this, it brings the flexiblity of writing script to a graphical format that some artists can grasp. Of course I know others don't agree with that.

m.d.
02-23-2013, 10:18 AM
Hey Matt :-)

You definitely are on the right track.

"Short" list:
- In Layout, Navigate the camera view directly in the viewport. So much faster and intuitive to find interesting views than moving the camera object around

Tom

I assume you mean in the same way as you do in perspective right?
Using a 3d connexion device fixes this .....and then some

Thomas Helzle
02-23-2013, 11:36 AM
I assume you mean in the same way as you do in perspective right?
Using a 3d connexion device fixes this .....and then some

Yes, exactly. Like in basically every other 3D app I use.

Interesting. I don't think I want a 3d connexion device, but if it works with that, maybe it can be done without too much effort with a Wacom/Mouse as well?

Cheers,

Tom

lardbros
02-23-2013, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure what you mean Thomas, by navigating the camera directly in the viewport?

This is currently possible in LW at the moment... but on Translate or Rotation at once. I even find this to be better than 3dsMax to be honest... there are major bugs in 3dsMax when using the 'walkthrough' tool to move the cam and animate it... they have NEVER been fixed to this day!

I find just clicking in the viewport in LW and moving, then setting the rotation by pressing spacebar works really nicely for me.

-------------


This bloody forum does some weird stuff at about quarter to each hour.... ever bloody hour!! It drives me mental!

rafaell
02-23-2013, 07:26 PM
Awesome Thomas

I want to express for several month I have been working to move and use Lightwave3d. I am very much impress with the software and how it has evolved. I am a 3dsmax user, and yes the constant upgrades, purchasing plugins for every sort of special need in 3dsmax has let me thinking to move to another 3d application.

I started with Lightwave 10.0, a friend gave it to me to develop some 3d renderings. I did not put much into it at the beginning, but as I worked on the same, got better. Now I am leaving 3dsmax to switch to Lightwave. I will agree every applications has it strength, and as a graphic artist you work with different applications.

I do a lot of architectural renderings with 3dsmax and Vray. Kray is a alternative with Lightwave, so I look forward to replicate the work I have done.

Good work Lightwave, I look forward in upgrading to 11.5


Rafael

spigolo
02-23-2013, 10:44 PM
I have never left lightwave but i was feeling very frustrated...i learned other software but never got a nice feeling with them..now I m very happy with lw 11 and lw 11.5, and despite there is a lot of work to do i like the direction, the work of the team, and the general lw feeling coming back..i renovated all my licences..!

jeric_synergy
02-23-2013, 11:11 PM
11.5 is really a strong entry. I'm a bit flabbergasted it was free! Flabbergasted, and DEEPLY grateful.

djwaterman
02-24-2013, 02:37 AM
I'm not sure what you mean Thomas, by navigating the camera directly in the viewport?

This is currently possible in LW at the moment... but on Translate or Rotation at once. I even find this to be better than 3dsMax to be honest... there are major bugs in 3dsMax when using the 'walkthrough' tool to move the cam and animate it... they have NEVER been fixed to this day!

I find just clicking in the viewport in LW and moving, then setting the rotation by pressing spacebar works really nicely for me.

-------------


This bloody forum does some weird stuff at about quarter to each hour.... ever bloody hour!! It drives me mental!


The forum is a real problem, it actually seems to be getting worse. But anyway, now that I'm able to get this down before the next freeze out. I never knew that about the space bar, I always been doing it by moving and then selecting rotate ha ha, still learning after all this time.

Surrealist.
02-24-2013, 07:05 AM
You can also use the mouse wheel to scroll through the manipulation modes.

But moving the camera in LightWave is still not the same as other many other apps. It is still a bit backwards.

Basically I think what was being referred to is navigating the camera. When you are in Perpsetive view in LightWave you are not actually looking through a camera. It is much faster to manipulate around the scene than actually moving the camera through controls. In other apps the navigation tools are actually camera tools because each view is in fact a camera. Blender uses a hack for this Clt Alt 0 which basically snaps the camera to your view. But it is just a hack and is far from accurate.

I am not a big fan of other camera tools like truck and dolly and all of that in other apps, so I would personally not mind if Newtek skipped that. But having Alt LMB with the Ctl and Shift key shorts that move the perspective view actually manipulating the camera would be an enormous time saver. Great for quick set ups to check your scene. That along with VPR would make rendering test angles and so on very fast.

Another time saver and annoyance is having to set keyframes on everything when you position it. OK it is the LightWave way. But I have learned to enjoy not having to do that. You should only have to create keyframes as reference points for animation in my opinion. When you are not animating who wants to be dealing with keyframes all the time? And who hasn't - when viewing some particle effects or something - wanted to look at a render on frame 100 and hit f9 only to realize you forgot to set a key. Or the other way, set a key at 100 then came back to frame 1 and set your camera up and set a key. They you forgot that you had a keyframe at 100. Now you go to frame 30 and wonder why... oh yeah... the camera is moving because there are now 2 keys. And so in effect just in order to fly around the scene from different angles at different times to check things you find yourself also managing keyframes. Turn auto key on and now you have a mess. Sure, you fit it into your workflow eventually. But it really is a PIA. PVR is a plus but it is not there 100 percent just yet.

It is much more intuitive to use the navigation keys. And then when you have a framing you like, being able to set a keyframe and that be the camera is cool. I do remember wasn't there a plugin to set the camera to the view from perspective? Not sure.

Spinland
02-24-2013, 07:09 AM
I've long felt that Rhino has a great system for camera/views manipulation. It's so efficient and intuitive. Just MNSDHO. :)

Danner
02-24-2013, 07:43 AM
As a long time first-person-shooter player I really love how Unity lets you navigate using the WASD keys to move and mouse to look around. You must hold right mouse button to activate it, Its a very nice way to navigate and I often wish I could do the same in LW. I wonder if this could be done with a script.

jeric_synergy
02-24-2013, 11:14 AM
I've never understood this objection: as a RW cinematographer, the LW camera seems very natural to me.

jasonwestmas
02-24-2013, 11:22 AM
I've never understood this objection: as a RW cinematographer, the LW camera seems very natural to me.

There's nothing natural about the technicalities found in the CG workflow.

mikkelen
02-24-2013, 11:45 AM
I bought a new LW license because of LW 11.5. And I'm very happy with it, clearly moving forward after years of stagnation!

The new modeller is awesome, and so are the new interchange features!

Unfortunately the Bullet physics system is currently very basic in it's implementation, and Lightwave is still mindboggingly slow (halting performance even on super fast computers) when working with complex projects.

jeric_synergy
02-24-2013, 12:01 PM
There's nothing natural about the technicalities found in the CG workflow.
I reject that formulation-- the LW camera movement is IMO more natural than viewport navigation, which is as unlike a real camera as can be.

jasonwestmas
02-24-2013, 01:00 PM
I reject that formulation-- the LW camera movement is IMO more natural than viewport navigation, which is as unlike a real camera as can be.

Maybe, "familiar" is a better word. It doesn't imply universal knowledge.

I think the word "natural" is not used accurately here. Natural means to do something that is instinctive and universal, as if we were born with the knowledge. There is nothing natural and universal about what we do on a computer. We have to learn how to use the software before it can be used and become familiar with how an engineer decides to set things up for us. :) Just saying that learning something new and doing something instinctively universal are two different concepts.

Cageman
02-24-2013, 01:17 PM
Maybe, "familiar" is a better word. It doesn't imply universal knowledge.

I think the word "natural" is not used accurately here. Natural means to do something that is instinctive and universal, as if we were born with the knowledge. There is nothing natural and universal about what we do on a computer. We have to learn how to use the software before it can be used and become familiar with how an engineer decides to set things up for us. :) Just saying that learning something new and doing something instinctively universal are two different concepts.

Hmm... our director, who isn't a 3D person at all, was able to create a handheld cameramotion in LW by using the mouse and aim. Can't say that Maya is as intuitive with the orbital nature of the camera. So, I guess that LWs camera is more natural in its behaviour compared to most other apps?

Cageman
02-24-2013, 01:20 PM
As a long time first-person-shooter player I really love how Unity lets you navigate using the WASD keys to move and mouse to look around. You must hold right mouse button to activate it, Its a very nice way to navigate and I often wish I could do the same in LW. I wonder if this could be done with a script.

There is a tool written by TrueArt that does just that.

http://www.trueart.pl/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/CameraMan

jasonwestmas
02-24-2013, 01:23 PM
Hmm... our director, who isn't a 3D person at all, was able to create a handheld cameramotion in LW by using the mouse and aim. Can't say that Maya is as intuitive with the orbital nature of the camera. So, I guess that LWs camera is more natural in its behaviour compared to most other apps?

That is an interesting concept. It's tough to prove what is learned just through repeated exposure verses ideas that are just easily communicated without much thought, therefore being more "Natural". Afterall, if I perform a task enough times, I don't have to think about it and recall the task in my mind as much. But as we all know if we stop doing something on a regular basis, it becomes more of a challenge later to perform the previously familiar task. The fact that I loose the knowledge over time does not mean it is natural and universal but something forced on my memory.

I would think that Lightwave is more simple to learn in some respects and easier to recall later to usage. But I'm not sure if someone would be able to use Lightwave without learning something else first. Therefore using lightwave is more of a familiar experience in context with other more simple applications of software we have learned. Maya is not in that category in many regards.

lwanmtr
02-24-2013, 02:26 PM
Lightwave's camera control has always been more intuitive to use. Having used Max and Maya quite a bit, their controls do not function as easy...even a 'camera' view orbits strangely to me.
Thats not to say that you cant get good results, I just prefer how Lightwave works. I can set up a camera move in alot less time, than in Maya or Max.

The keyframing is alot easier in Lightwave than in Max also....It's easy to lose an animation in max if you're not in the correct mode. Deleting unwanted keys is alot easier too.

Cageman
02-24-2013, 06:13 PM
I would think that Lightwave is more simple to learn in some respects and easier to recall later to usage. But I'm not sure if someone would be able to use Lightwave without learning something else first. Therefore using lightwave is more of a familiar experience in context with other more simple applications of software we have learned. Maya is not in that category in many regards.

The director is also presented with stuff done in Maya and Motionbuilder, and in those packages, he can't be hands on, because they both work very differently from LW. What I am talking about here is having a camera responding in a similar way as if it was a real camera regarding translation and rotation and the ability to capture the movements in realtime without any setup.

EDIT: This has nothing to do with simplicity... or that LW is easier to learn... we are talking about a very fundamential thing here; a camera! A camera in the real world has certain rules to how it can move. LWs camera, when looking through it while moving around, is very much the way it would work in the real world. The big difference between LWs camera and other apps, is that in LW, a camera is a camera, with the pivot allways being the pivot of the item (camera) itself, and not some weird focalpoint or some other thing. To setup a Maya camera to behave the same, and certanly if you also want to record the motion, you are in for some heavy duty MEL/Python scripting.

lwanmtr
02-24-2013, 06:25 PM
yep, thats it in a nutshell...lol

Surrealist.
02-24-2013, 08:16 PM
Sorry but you guys lost me there. In Maya I'll take Alt LMB for pan and tilt and MMB (for dolly and track) along with S for set key any day over LightWave's camera controls. In Maya, true, if you want to directly manipulate the camera controls, yeah, it is a pain. The thing is you don't have to. That is the main difference between LightWave and most other apps. Restricted to moving the camera controls in LightWave thankfully is less painful but not nearly as fast as the viewport perspective controls. For very quick set ups and renders and for even some very basic - not realistic looking, rather CGI looking - camera moves which is what you get in both cases, I'll take the navigation controls hands down. If I want more precise control, I will wrangle the controls directly and there is not that much difference to me in that case because I am only using the camera view as a monitor not as a "look through intuitive control" feedback.

If I am looking for a real world realistic camera movement, I am not looking for what any of these applications do by default. Navigation controls or camera controls. To me a computer camera always looks CGI unless you build a rig. Because even if you hand hold a camera it will naturally pivot on its COG modified by where you hold it from. Never from the center of the camera back plate or image censor at the back of the lens. Which in effect is what you get in a computer. To get that in the real world you could build a special rig. Or use ones that are available that will allow you to pivot the camera in a more gimbal-like fashion. But those are more special case situations.

And none of this is natural to the way we see things if we are going that route. But "natural" camera movement in cinema is accepted as the "norm" but it is because of the limitations and practicalities of camera size, number of crew and the required movement in the shot and the resulting real-world rig based on the physics involved.

There is a world of difference between the look of craning a camera from a fulcrum 4 meters away on an arc or swinging the camera around on an arch and pivoting the tilt of a camera from the base of a tripod or camera mount from any of the controls you have out of the box in 3D.

Performing a dolly on a straight track is probably the only normal similarity between what we get in 3D.

A Steadicam shot probably has more similarity to CG camera movement because of the nature of the rig.

But it has been long accepted I think that if you are looking for "realistic and natural" (assuming most normal camera rigging situations) camera movement in CG you build a rig. I am not saying anything new here.

But at the same time, there are many advantages to camera movements you can get in CG that are very difficult to get in the real world. So it depends on the effect you want.

But for me, simple and fast. I'll take the Navigation Controls, every time.

dwburman
02-24-2013, 11:40 PM
I think LW should get some of the navigation controls of other apps as an option. For me.... having used studio cameras on tripods with wheels, Looking through LW's camera as if it was a viewfinder and moving it around as if the mouse were the tripod handles is familiar and perhaps second-nature. ;)


There are things I like about the other control schemes as well, but I'd be annoyed if the "Camera Viewfinder" mode were replaced without the possibility of using it. Of course, if the whole control/UI for the camera system could be modularized in such a way that new control modes could be added (including a WASD + mouse mode & the ability to snap the camera to another viewport view), I'd be very pleased about it. :)

Since I do have a bit of a video production background, the metaphors and constructs that LightWave was built on make it easier to use for me. That might not be true for someone who's never had those experiences (though looking through a "viewfinder" is how people shoot video on their phones).

Oh, and I too think 11.5 is a fantastic release. :) :thumbsup:

Surrealist.
02-25-2013, 12:34 AM
I don't think it would be a problem to do that. Er I think. Because all you are doing now is manipulating the camera. That should not have to change. The only thing that would change would be that all of the viewpoints would actually be cameras with presets for ortho or perspective. And all you'r have to do - I think - is select the camera. This might not be possible in current Layout. I am not sure.

But the way I see it is this. (layman's theory) By default, you are manipulating a "perspective" camera (not a Perspective Camera). And that camera gets is Global TR from navigation inputs. To do this you'd have to buck the keyframe issue somehow. But theoretically, you could simply navigate this camera and you never even have to know it is a camera. But if you wanted to shift to a camera view on a selected camera you could do that as well. Or even manipulate the perspective veiw like a camera with the space bar middle mouse and LMB dragg all you want, because that would in fact be a camera.

I separate the issue this way:

On the one hand I want the fastest way to get around a scene. That is the navigation controls. It is much faster to get to a POV quickly. On the other hand I want the camera to look and feel like a real camera when rendered. Because at the end of the day, it is what people see and get from the camera motion not my "experience" moving the camera that counts. So to me, a person can "feel" comfortable looking down a CG lens, and having certain manipulation controls available. But unless those controls connect to a camera that actually looks and feels real to the viewer it is a useless tool cinematically. You might think you are creating something cool. And feel good doing it, But screened, it is still a CG-looking shot just like any other - with the benefit that you got there faster and more intuitively. That's valid. You can do a better job at it. But it does not translate cinematically for me so it is limnited. That's just me. I'd rather watch a shot that took me 10 times longer to manipulate on a custom rig than shots I could get quickly because it seemed more intuitive.

What I'd like to see are tools developed to move the camera that drive a real world type of rig. If someone came up with intuitive controls for something like that, I'd be interested. I am sure many rigs have been made along these lines. Just that we don't have easy access to them out of the box.

All of that said, I have seen camera rigs that use a jib arm and suspend the camera in such a way that the camera can be moved around a lot like a CG camera. So at the end of the day, it is what you want the shot to look like I suppose. But it is really to me about knowing what you are creating and treating camera movement with as much care as you do other CG elements to make them "real". And that does not always translate to the most intuitive process in my opinion.

Jim M
02-25-2013, 02:24 AM
- Develop "Package Scene" in Layout into a fully functional alternative scene save. Not much missing, just allow to rename the scene itself directly in the dialogue and make the image sequence options also available for non-sequence images (I always keep all of them in the main image folder).

That and make it actually package the scene.... IES lights !!! Audio !!!! etc etc.

:)

lino.grandi
02-25-2013, 03:40 AM
I think it would be great to be able to move the Camera as we do with the perspective view. It can be really faster than the current method. Maya method it's good...

Thomas Helzle
02-25-2013, 04:50 AM
Hey Lino,

yeah, for me it's a very intuitive and fast way to find interesting angles in a scene.
It's basically what XSI does by default as well.
In XSI you can also remove the camera goal if you want and/or move the Camera the Lightwave-Way for exact positioning or when using a camera rig.
Best of both worlds.

Cheers,

Tom

ivanze
02-25-2013, 06:57 AM
I've tried using cameras in other 3D programs but for me, Lightwave camera is the best to setup. It feels very natural.

jasonwestmas
02-25-2013, 07:54 AM
Lots of interesting ideas, pretty cool! :)

jasonwestmas
02-25-2013, 08:10 AM
I think it would be great to be able to move the Camera as we do with the perspective view. It can be really faster than the current method. Maya method it's good...


Yep, I'd like that as an option, it is a good method.

chikega
02-25-2013, 09:13 AM
In Houdini, you can lock a camera to the perspective mode and with a click of a button, unlock it. You can create several different camera views from Perspective mode very quickly, changing between them.

lino.grandi
02-25-2013, 09:59 AM
Best of both worlds.

Which is always the best option.

Surrealist.
02-25-2013, 11:26 AM
Camera bookmarks seem to be also very useful, though I have not got into the habit of using them. That Houdini solution sounds interesting.

lino.grandi
02-25-2013, 01:00 PM
Yes. At the moment we only have one level of Store and Recall view...and it works for perspective only.

Snosrap
02-26-2013, 04:20 PM
we are talking about a very fundamential thing here; a camera! A camera in the real world has certain rules to how it can move. LWs camera, when looking through it while moving around, is very much the way it would work in the real world. The big difference between LWs camera and other apps, is that in LW, a camera is a camera, with the pivot allways being the pivot of the item (camera) itself, and not some weird focalpoint or some other thing. Absolutely! And for that reason it's always been real intuitive for me. Love it!

Oedo 808
02-27-2013, 08:56 AM
I just need to quote and augment my previous post to make it clear that it was a joke, I fear some may have missed the asterisk and therefore the less obvious footnote.

I do not know Matt, and it would have been a bit hard for him to say anything to me without having any sort of contact with him.

I think the whole team is doing a fine job, my confidence in LightWave is very high at the moment and I'm sure as the team do their work to make LightWave more extensible we shall see no let up in its progress.

Sorry old chap.


I was talking to Matt the other day and he told me that since joining NewTek he has managed to single-handedly steer LightWave out of danger and on to its current, most agreeable course.*


*This post may not be true in any way, shape or form.

Just so it is clear, the part where it says "This post may not be true in any way, shape or form." should read as "This post is not true in any way, shape or form."

Jim M
02-27-2013, 09:39 AM
It was utterly obvious.


I just need to quote and augment my previous post to make it clear that it was a joke, I fear some may have missed the asterisk and therefore the less obvious footnote.

I do not know Matt, and it would have been a bit hard for him to say anything to me without having any sort of contact with him.

I think the whole team is doing a fine job, my confidence in LightWave is very high at the moment and I'm sure as the team do their work to make LightWave more extensible we shall see no let up in its progress.

Sorry old chap.



Just so it is clear, the part where it says "This post may not be true in any way, shape or form." should read as "This post is not true in any way, shape or form."

RonB
02-27-2013, 12:32 PM
Hey about the camera movement...
For years I've used a free script called PView...Save as a plugin and add to your tools.
Move the Perspective view to one you like...select the Camera and hit PView...it moves the Camera to the Perspective view you have chosen.

http://thespread.faulknermano.com/_theoldspread/PViewGN.zip

I had a chance to work with 11.5 recently. My feeling is we won't be taking any long hot showers together, just yet at least.
Despite all the bells and whistles and the promise they hold I'm thinking maybe V13 will be the real deal...at least I hope so.
One thing that has not changed with Lightwave, no matter how much RAM you throw at it is, it still turns into a glacier with even moderately high poly models.
That has always been a draw back to Lightwave and still is.
I also experienced far more crashes with the same models and scenes than with 9.6. The crashes were not exactly repeatable but very close to it.
I found Layout would crash eventually after changing texture maps on a model...especially if the maps were of 2K or larger.
Sometimes after two changes sometimes more...it also crashed almost everytime I saved the scene and models after making extensive scene changes.

IMHO, 8.5 was the best and most stable version of Lightwave and I still use it for modeling.
But I have to admit I'm looking more and more to Modo and can't help but think it's what Lightwave could have been.

That's my 2˘ on 11.5....

Cheers,
RonB

chikega
03-01-2013, 11:42 AM
Thanks RonB for heads up for the PView plugin. I think it will be useful.

Concerning modo: I've been using modo since it started. And it's a very powerful app for being relatively young. I use it for most of my modeling and retopology. The Shadertree doesn't suit everyones taste though - some like myself prefer a nodal work flow. Also beware that some things in modo are broken such as it's symmetry mode and painting using displacement maps. You can't load audio files, etc... But those will probably be addressed by the time 701 rolls out soon.

Cageman
03-01-2013, 01:30 PM
I think it would be great to be able to move the Camera as we do with the perspective view. It can be really faster than the current method. Maya method it's good...

As long as it doesn't replace the current method, I guess it would be a win-win. :)

Bog
03-06-2013, 03:36 PM
Throwing my two pennies' worth in... this is the 20th year I've been using LightWave, and my 18th year of it professionally. It's kept me out of trouble and from having to find a real job for a long, long time. Thanks, guys - I'm super-excited about the new release.

Here's to another 20 years.

RomanS
03-06-2013, 06:31 PM
I think it would be great to be able to move the Camera as we do with the perspective view. It can be really faster than the current method. Maya method it's good...

Oh yes! As i wrote here...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?134106-For-space-dentists


Btw. animating the camera after wilde turns over a long time is horrible in LW. Even if you are using target objects. I think the cam animation costs the vast bulk of time. And is still somehow far from perfect. But you know... deadlines.

complex camera animations can become really horrible. I´m used to animate the camera primarily through camera perspective. But after twisting around all axes a few times... forget it..

beside that: shame an me! Because I never wrote here how the LW development of the last 1,5 years made me happy and made our daily business so much easier! I never stopped believing in LW in 15 years. But now I have a better feeling with my obstinacy and less fears of the longterm perspective of this CG-business - at least in my event horizon.

There´s just one really need for AD tools in our workflow - very complex particle solutions. But I still hope there will be a way to solve such things in LW sooner or later... :)

Thomas Helzle
03-07-2013, 03:11 AM
Just to put this discussion in perspective a bit:

When I wrote that I want to "_navigate_ the camera like a perspective view" I meant that for Stills and basic Viewfinding mostly. There it's a god send.

For animation, this isn't the best solution in most cases and I never meant to say that this should be the _only_ way to move the camera - that would be silly and I don't know where that did came from.
The camera still is an object and can be moved in the normal ways.
I don't see how or why that should change _ever_.

I personally found spline paths combined with targets the best option for animating cameras smoothly - which isn't an option in Lightwave either (directly viewport modellable bezier/NURBS splines like in C4D, XSI etc. and then constraint to spline with a slider) - but I do little animation these days and never intended to tell anybody how he/she should animate cameras ;-)

I don't know why this lead to such a long discussion.
I hope it's out of the way now.

Cheers,

Tom

Surrealist.
03-07-2013, 04:36 AM
Nice to hear your camera techniques as well. As to the reason you wrote what you did, I think that was clearly understood. But thanks for clarification just the same.

It led to a long discussion because it is a subject people are interested in, and because it came up as an invitation to hear about feedback which you gave. That was cool.

Then other people chimed in. As to be expected. This is a forum and there are other opinions...;-)

As to why things get interpreted as they do, that comes with the territory. Always happens. I never get it either.

I suppose it will be over when we people are done talking about it.

jasonwestmas
03-07-2013, 08:29 AM
haha, I know we're sooo frustrating aren't we.

Thomas Helzle
03-07-2013, 08:45 AM
hehehe - well, the long long years of extreme frustration may have led to a certain tendency to circle around beaten to death topics or "What has to happen so that Lightwave goes back to the top" catatonic near-death experiences in this community.

Not only Newtek has to recover from that phase, the users as well.

If you had to defend your sinking ship for ages against all the other amazing things that happened in the world, some scars are to be expected.

I only hope this will start to heal now and the forum style will become a bit more productive again ;-)

But Helsinki syndrome is hard to overcome LOL

Cheers,

Tom

jasonwestmas
03-07-2013, 08:53 AM
I think it's safe to say that most of us that have stuck around in these forums all these years aren't threatened by posts in a forum and actually expect a lot of disagreement. Also I expect a lot of agreements about LW as well. :) I have never felt the urge to say, hey guys I'm jumping ship. This is the best forum I've been in regardless of the tools I use off and on to fulfill the needs of whatever I'm working on. LW included of course.

The internet is an interesting place, we don't have to say hello and we don't have to say goodbye either. I just look around and make conversation.