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View Full Version : The Transform Tool in 11.5 has issues with selecting the handles......



Snosrap
02-06-2013, 10:35 PM
This video says it all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sXcFUwJvwM&feature=youtu.be The handles cannot be picked on small objects zoomed in to poly selections. :devil:

Lewis
02-07-2013, 12:19 AM
Yep, it's old LWM problem with full zoom (you know when you are zoomed full and cant' pick polygon or edge which is long/bigger than screen zoom) now visible even more.

Snosrap
02-07-2013, 09:19 PM
A much bigger problem here though is that this renders the tool absolutely worthless because of the fact that you have to select a portion of the widget to do anything at all. Wheras modo has what they call "hauling" ---off-handle click+drag action which controls one or two values of a tool directly in the viewport --- NewTek's Transform tool has no such capabilities - you need to explicitly use the widget.

Surrealist.
02-07-2013, 09:42 PM
I am curious is using Shift A on the selected poly or points does anything to help the ability to select the widget. Or maybe you were doing that already to zoom in.

Surrealist.
02-07-2013, 09:52 PM
oops...

Snosrap
02-07-2013, 10:02 PM
I am curious is using Shift A on the selected poly or points does anything to help the ability to select the widget. Or maybe you were doing that already to zoom in.

I always Shift A. :)

jwiede
02-07-2013, 10:28 PM
A much bigger problem here though is that this renders the tool absolutely worthless because of the fact that you have to select a portion of the widget to do anything at all. Wheras modo has what they call "hauling" ---off-handle click+drag action which controls one or two values of a tool directly in the viewport --- NewTek's Transform tool has no such capabilities - you need to explicitly use the widget.
Yep, "hauling" is really important part of gizmo functionality. It also gives a way of effectively controlling the adjustment precision on the fly, on top of addressing widget control regardless of visibility. C4D's gizmos have similar hauling functionality, and it adds a huge boost to overall gizmo usability. Forcing continuous action via the widget itself is too cumbersome, controlling precision is too difficult (esp. with rotation), and hit-accuracy issues really get in the way -- all seen with the LW Transform widget. Hopefully it can be added to the LW gizmo engine without too much delay or difficulty.

Lewis
02-08-2013, 12:28 AM
I agree, I'd like that we can use "free mode" with translate gizmo like it's regular move tool i.e. click anywhere you want and move in all directions. So Fog it, fog all FRs so they know what they have to add/fix. Really there is no other way than telling them what you want. Fogbugz have "Feature Request" section :).

Surrealist.
02-08-2013, 01:08 AM
Interesting that this is in this state from the looks of it.

Thing is that this is not about a gizmo. It is about the fact that a Gizmo is only an interface to a transform system. It is just the handle.

And this falls in as an example of my opinion about how not to develop LightWave. This come across as, you have got to be kidding right? You see? It would be like saying, "hey we can move a point now in Layout... woo hoo!"

I mean how are we to take that seriously? You can't.

If you are going to do something like a Gizmo in Modeler, it needs to be at the heart of a system that is in place. Even if it worked well. That is not what is needed in Modeler.

What is needed is to remove all of the transform tools.

Replace the tools with a system of transforming to which the Gizmo is the main handle of manipulation along with and tied into numeric input.

The basics are:

Translate
Rotate
Scale

This system needs to also be tied in with universal modifiers:

Soft Selection
Definable Construction Planes
Robust Snapping to all elements in any layer that includes centers midpoints as well as components
Adjustable Pivot center (that also can use the same snapping for placement)

Right there you can toss out pretty much all of the transform tools in LightWave

Then toss out all of the rest of the tools and replace them with simple deform modifiers

Taper
Shear
Lattice
etc.

And then you start to have a more modernized workflow.

Never mind history stack and all of that.

I just mean if you have a gizmo, it has to be a part of the above system or it is just another interesting tool that does not have the power a gizmo is suppose to have. A Gizmo is not supposed to be a tool really. It is actually just a handle and controller for a transform system.

I am all for gradual increase in features and tools and so on. But a Gizmo, here, is really misunderstood, or to be fair, incorrectly implemented. This is not how I'd like to see LightWave developed. Hold the Gizmo off until you have something to put it to work controlling - a transform system. That is what a Gizmo is and does in my opinion.

Snosrap
02-08-2013, 06:54 AM
I agreee 100% Richard! I really hope that none of these tools have been written exclusively unto themselves, but it kind of looks that way. Heck, even the various classic transform tools are just modifications of ONE tool. Example: Drag, Magnet, Drag Net, and Shear are all just various settings of move. Who cares how fast they can write new tools if they are discombobulated from one another. But I also understand the "transition" period LW is in so I think these "hacks" are inevitable until the underlying framework is complete. Because after all, who expects "render modes" in each tool. :D

hrgiger
02-08-2013, 07:39 AM
Yup Richard, hoping the gizmo being a tool specific thing is a temporary thing to a re-designed transform system.

Surrealist.
02-08-2013, 01:18 PM
lol yeah I know.... preaching to the choir here. But I just wish NT would come along here and particularly in Modeler's case, state, "yeah we get it, this is what a transform system should be, we are working on that..." Something.

But as Snosrap correctly points out, for years we have had these cool integrated transform tools all based on the same base tool. And for years we have been saying, consolidate.... at least, please! And Transform Plus proves you can do it. LWCAD proves you can do snapping and all kinds of things in Modeler for tools that are not implemented in Modeler, standard.

Even if we did not have a new transform system, there is no excuse in my opinion not to at least consolidate these tools and make them all work on the same basis like the TRS tools work to create twist and Vortex as well as Dragnet etc.m plus all have the same capability as Transform Plus.

I mean at the very least, take what is there and make it universally workable.

But what do we get? A barely working transform tool.

Sorry to rant. But it is time to do to LWCAD what they did to Worley - sorry man - but it is time to move on from the dependency on plugs in Modeler.

In that "Modeler Tools Suck" thread Zardos, came along and said.... hey man people have been using these same tools for 20 years....

Bless him. It is all about context. But is sadly true.

Snosrap
02-08-2013, 02:15 PM
You are on a roll Richard!! Love it. :)

ncr100
02-08-2013, 02:54 PM
Add this as a bug to fogbugz?

Matt
02-08-2013, 03:31 PM
Yup Richard, hoping the gizmo being a tool specific thing is a temporary thing to a re-designed transform system.

Short answer, yes it is.

hrgiger
02-08-2013, 03:33 PM
Short answer, yes it is.

Nice to know Matt, thank you.

Matt
02-08-2013, 03:36 PM
I would give a longer answer, but am tied up right now!

But yeah, essentially, this is not the last work in Modeler, what you're seeing is the very tip of a larger iceberg, one could say almost too early, but we're not done yet, and even these tools (with known issues aside) are _still_ very useful for the majority of situations.

Surrealist.
02-08-2013, 04:36 PM
How can we open up the communication lines more on this sort of thing so we are tracking with you? If I missed something, forgive me. It was not readily obvious.

Because it appears this way:

I think marketing could trust us to be on the same page as NT. We know NT did a colossal, F'up with CORE. It is forgiven. Now, we need to be on the same page as you and we should not have to ask. And when they release something like the Gizmo - you guys know what this means, we know you do. It is not that we think you are in a dark cave. It is just that I think marketing should include us on something like this. Otherwise it appears to people NT is in a dark cave. Especially, those people thinking about coming over from other apps to model in Modeler. You think a guy coming from Blender, Maya, Max, C4D, XSI.... did I forget any...?, oh yeah I forgot - every other app - because they all have gizmos and a real transform system, are going to take this seriously? Do you see what I am saying? It is all about the context. If the Gizmo is a part of a larger context. And get this. For a tool like the Gizmo - especially because of what it is - needs to be presented in the context of: as a glimpse into what we are planning, here is a small gift - rather than, "Hey we have a gizmo now". I just think that Newtek Marketing has to trust us- and the wider community - on these kinds of things. And if they assume it should be assumed - don't. Because when they don't say anything, it comes across as " hey look... woo hoo..." (yeah I am exaggerating for impact)

Genoma on the other hand, may or may not be a part of a larger system. But because it is fairly workable in itself, because it is such an addition to the tool set, it can stand on its own for now with little debate as to its usefulness.

But in context of modeling tools.... just saying. You know Matt. Having you there is like having one of us. We know you get it. Can you try and infuse some of this thinking to the marketing team?

If there was a wider general thing stated, I think I understood that. But specifically in the context of Modeling tools. It is one of the largest sore spots with me anyway. I mean I have no plans to come back to Modeler - ever - unless this is fully addressed. I do understand that people use and depend on Modeler, and any increased functionality is a help in the mean time.

Just trying to infuse a larger picture if I may.

hrgiger
02-08-2013, 04:46 PM
I would give a longer answer, but am tied up right now!

But yeah, essentially, this is not the last work in Modeler, what you're seeing is the very tip of a larger iceberg, one could say almost too early, but we're not done yet, and even these tools (with known issues aside) are _still_ very useful for the majority of situations.

I agree that the new tools are useful additions and from what I've seen (obvious issues aside), I like what I'm seeing so far of that larger iceburg. Being able to move elements along the axis of a polygon face or an edge alone is a worthy addition although of course that part I woudl like to see as a larger part of a transform system that works across the spectrum of modeling tools but I'm sure that has to be part of the plan. I like the contextual hints that appear on screen and being able to snap elements in relation to another point in space is great. Overall I'm impressed with this first effort at addressing the longstanding neglect of modeling capabilities in LightWave.

GraphXs
02-08-2013, 09:13 PM
Yeah, at least modeler finally is getting some love! Looking forward to the future! Go LWG!

djwaterman
02-08-2013, 11:05 PM
And remember, it's a point release (free), these tools will help, but truth be told I was getting everything I needed out of Modeler anyway. In terms of marketing and new tool development, I'd really like to see Lightwave push towards the motion graphics side of the industry, that's got to be a huge market share.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-09-2013, 02:29 PM
The new modeling tools are a little raw but the axis rotate tool and transform tools seem to reflect deeply considered revisions and indicate great things to come...

jwiede
02-10-2013, 12:53 AM
The new modeling tools are a little raw but the axis rotate tool and transform tools seem to reflect deeply considered revisions and indicate great things to come...
In just another year or two, we might even have an efficient transform gizmo, be able to edit edges with symmetry, and so forth! :devil:

I can't wait.

Lewis
02-10-2013, 03:48 AM
In just another year or two, we might even have an efficient transform gizmo, be able to edit edges with symmetry, and so forth! :devil:

I can't wait.

Symmetry works with Translate tool now.Iit works with new WELD tools also so they surely can make edit edges too to work "soon" ;).

Thomas Helzle
02-10-2013, 11:29 AM
Matt, do you have any hints on how to improve the ability to actually grab the transform gizmo?
It doesn't work here most of the time, so if some OpenGL-, Viewport- or GraphicsCard-settings would help with this, I would really be happy to know about them.
I also can't see the snapping tools that are supposed to show up in orange.

I basically agree with everything that was said here, but as a former customer returning from Softimage XSI, I have to say that this release is the first that makes me feel good about Lightwaves future.
Now it actually has one. ;-)

I do my first commercial job in LW since 2004 or 2005 and while many things are still a bit flakey, it's actually more fun than I would have hoped. And when it crashes, at least it's back up in a second ;-)

Thanks to everybody involved!

Cheers,

Tom

Lewis
02-10-2013, 11:58 AM
Matt, do you have any hints on how to improve the ability to actually grab the transform gizmo?
It doesn't work here most of the time, so if some OpenGL-, Viewport- or GraphicsCard-settings would help with this, I would really be happy to know about them.
I also can't see the snapping tools that are supposed to show up in orange.

There is no "trick" how to make it work other than unzoom slightly unitll it allows you to grab the handle. That's only workaround whcih works now. It's same with picking edges, if you work in biger scaled object, have long edge(s) and zoom to closest point level you won't be able to pick edge (or poly) untill you unzoom - that's same in LW for long time, 11.5 just pronunced this problem now when we got gizmo.

Thomas Helzle
02-10-2013, 12:22 PM
Thanks Lewis,
yeah, I have problems with picking edges as well, but not only in the extreme situations you describe - they seem overall less happy to be selected. ;-)
Zooming doesn't help here with either of the problems.
My objects are about 2 cm in size with not much detail.

Too bad but can't be helped if it can't be helped...

Cheers,

Tom

dee
02-11-2013, 04:37 AM
Thanks Lewis,
yeah, I have problems with picking edges as well, but not only in the extreme situations you describe - they seem overall less happy to be selected. ;-)
Zooming doesn't help here with either of the problems.
My objects are about 2 cm in size with not much detail.

Too bad but can't be helped if it can't be helped...

Cheers,

Tom

I just did a test with a 2 cm ball and yes, at that scale it's nearly impossible to use the Transform tool. I was able to move but not to rotate and scale a poly. As a workaround you could temporarily scale your object to 20 or 200 cm.


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Thomas Helzle
02-11-2013, 05:08 AM
Thanks dee - good to know it's not just me then.
I wasn't aware that the Gizmo is scale-dependent - it's not a problem to scale my objects up in this case, although I prefer modelling to scale normally.

Cool, Thanks and Cheers, :bowdown:

Tom