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prospector
02-06-2013, 03:10 PM
Before I go crazy (ier)..
1st. Is there a way to rename bones to a more proper naming convention and have the names propagate thruought Layout so all targets and dependencies are updated with new names.
I tried to rename in Modeler and convert rig in Layout was nothing but bones and no controls.

2nd. After taking model into vertex paint with the new bone system, weights all had a .# added to the weights and they were NOT matched as they use to be automagically done for us. So in pic...
what is the NEW way to get these weight names to match the coded bone names without selecting a bone and having to go thru the entire list, clicking on each to see what map is closest to that bone ???

So far I have found Genoma to be a headache. And I haven't even tried anything else new yet.

It may be great if just using the base rigs as they are and all but adding parts, and the naming is a real hassle so far unless I am missing something.

111219

Skip next pic as it was wrong one :)

RebelHill
02-06-2013, 03:20 PM
The naming is clearly used to provide specific identifiers within the plugin itself... Since genoma contains no real "structure" (in the sense that something *could* be an arm, leg... some weirdo appendage, no way of knowing) that's gonna be a hard thing to do without creating a real mire of conflicts Id have thought. This, ofc, is why renaming in modeler breaks the whole thing for you... its like going in to program files and renaming dll's n stuff.

Id think that once you've got a rig finsihed, finalised, etc... you can probs do something using the hierarchy rename tools from bone tools. As for the nulls, that's largely gona be a manual op Id have thought. Since you get duplicate items which pickup LWs "autonaming" ( item(1), item(2) etc), ther's no way to script anything for auto renaming of whole structures, nor easy ways to edit the scene file text itself. (for instance open scene file in text editor and search "dn"... loads of entries without specific identifier numbers).

prospector
02-06-2013, 04:11 PM
Crap :cry:

Means I gotta do everything manually.

Crap

LW_Will
02-06-2013, 11:36 PM
???

So, after the auto rig setup... you've got to do something manually?

Um. okay... sure.

Hail
02-07-2013, 03:11 AM
But why would someone want to rename the bones?
I thought the default names work fine.

j0SH
02-07-2013, 03:27 AM
But why would someone want to rename the bones?
I thought the default names work fine.

They work fine, but you might find a reason to edit or add to a bone hierarchy and it would be easier to find if it was named.

lino.grandi
02-07-2013, 06:23 AM
???

So, after the auto rig setup... you've got to do something manually?

Um. okay... sure.

No, you don't. Only if you NEED. ;) As I already stated, Genoma it's a way to speed up the creation of a rig. It's a really fast way to build a bone hierarchy with ready to use controls. If who's using it it's not a rigger, he will probably have no need to do anything with bones (but to select them all and hide them). If he's a rigger in need to add something to the rig or further expand its functionalities , it will be able to select the bones he needs to rename and manage them.

lino.grandi
02-07-2013, 07:06 AM
Before I go crazy (ier)..
1st. Is there a way to rename bones to a more proper naming convention and have the names propagate thruought Layout so all targets and dependencies are updated with new names.
I tried to rename in Modeler and convert rig in Layout was nothing but bones and no controls.

No, you can't rename the skelegons in Modeler, since Genoma uses the names to create proper hierarchies and controls.



2nd. After taking model into vertex paint with the new bone system, weights all had a .# added to the weights and they were NOT matched as they use to be automagically done for us. So in pic...
what is the NEW way to get these weight names to match the coded bone names without selecting a bone and having to go thru the entire list, clicking on each to see what map is closest to that bone ???

To assign a weight to skelegons in Modeler you should select them and use the Set Skelegon Weight command. Then the weights will be automatically assigned to the proper bones in Layout as the Genoma rig will be done.

If you create the weights automatically using Vertex Paint, the workflow could get a little tricky. I would like to have some further information about your workflow, so we can see if there's a way to make it work fine for you.


So far I have found Genoma to be a headache. And I haven't even tried anything else new yet.

It may be great if just using the base rigs as they are and all but adding parts, and the naming is a real hassle so far unless I am missing something.


Did you go through the docs? Ben Vost made a Tutorial that should help undeerstanding how Genoma it's supposed to work.

I just made a very first video about it, with others to follow soon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YQlfhOh1Ltk

11.5 content offers some interesting Genoma rigs as well.

prospector
02-07-2013, 11:46 AM
No, you can't rename the skelegons in Modeler, since Genoma uses the names to create proper hierarchies and controls.
Yep, got that part, tho the naming could have been more easily recognizable I think.


To assign a weight to skelegons in Modeler you should select them and use the Set Skelegon Weight command.
I would if I could know which one it actually is.

So far there are 56 bones in my object with the name Bone 1, there are also 56 weights with the name Bone 1, They are all over her body, depending on the internal naming of the Genoma parts used to make her skeletal system.
In Skelegon tree window all bone 1s are listed as 'boneHPB' (1) and don't correspond to Vertex Paint names of 'Bone01.XX' where the X is Vertex Paints way of differentiating all the bone 1s.
Did I say there are 56 of each? (so far)

Now..the 'old' way was to name bones like you have the mocap one with each bone named distinctly, send to vertex paint, let it do it's thing, and match name to name in Skelegon tree window..done..easy peasy.


Now the 'new improved way' is to send model to vertex paint, let it do it's thing after giving it permission to add the XX number to all bones named the same, go to Skelegon tree panel and match up and done, right? NO

I need to know the name of a bone first...well skelegon tree won't highlight a selected bone on model when picked.
Hmmmm...find another way

select bone, look around, name not showing up in any window oe anywhere in interface.hmmmm another way?
select bone, look in info panel.... nope name not there, just gives a number, surface not the name, part not the name. Hmmmm, another way?
select bone, copy/paste to new layer so only 1 bone in window, open Skelegon tree window..WOO HOOO there is name. BoneHPB (1). delete layer go back to original layer, open skelegon tree panel , goto boneHPB (1)...oh wait there are 56 of them...which one? Can't be done in skelegon panel, also nothing else works when skelegon tree panel is open. HMmm another way?

select bone, open Set Skelegon weight panel, select weight...oh damn, there are 56 of them, which one? HMMM another way?


Here is what I am down to:

I highlight a bone, and with weight shade turned on, I start selecting the weights 1 by 1 untill the area around highlighted bone is lit up, THEN I can use the 'Set Skelegon Weight' panel. The bone is selected, the correct weight is showing down on the bottom right of interface, so I just dropdown list of weights in panel and select correct one.

And then I go to another bone and do the same thing over and over till all bones are done.

So far there are 609 bones to do and I haven't started on face or added any muscle or tendon bones.
What use to take 30 min or so to just match names, I can now see taking a day or 2 each time I change something, because every time I take a rig into vertex paint, the XX numbers change, so if I add something, then I need to go thru whole process again to get the right maps put to the correct bones.


Do you see an easier way?

lertola2
02-07-2013, 11:59 AM
How many weight maps do you have? Did you use Vertex Paint to automatically create weights for the genoma bones? I don't think that will work well. You can set the weight for a lot of bones at once. For example you can select all the bones in the leg then use the set skelegon weight to assign them all to the same weight map.

lino.grandi
02-07-2013, 12:01 PM
Yep, got that part, tho the naming could have been more easily recognizable I think.


I would if I could know which one it actually is.

So far there are 56 bones in my object with the name Bone 1, there are also 56 weights with the name Bone 1, They are all over her body, depending on the internal naming of the Genoma parts used to make her skeletal system.
In Skelegon tree window all bone 1s are listed as 'boneHPB' (1) and don't correspond to Vertex Paint names of 'Bone01.XX' where the X is Vertex Paints way of differentiating all the bone 1s.
Did I say there are 56 of each? (so far)

Now..the 'old' way was to name bones like you have the mocap one with each bone named distinctly, send to vertex paint, let it do it's thing, and match name to name in Skelegon tree window..done..easy peasy.


Now the 'new improved way' is to send model to vertex paint, let it do it's thing after giving it permission to add the XX number to all bones named the same, go to Skelegon tree panel and match up and done, right? NO

I need to know the name of a bone first...well skelegon tree won't highlight a selected bone on model when picked.
Hmmmm...find another way


select bone, look around, name not showing up in any window oe anywhere in interface.hmmmm another way?
select bone, look in info panel.... nope name not there, just gives a number, surface not the name, part not the name. Hmmmm, another way?
select bone, copy/paste to new layer so only 1 bone in window, open Skelegon tree window..WOO HOOO there is name. BoneHPB (1). delete layer go back to original layer, open skelegon tree panel , goto boneHPB (1)...oh wait there are 56 of them...which one? Can't be done in skelegon panel, also nothing else works when skelegon tree panel is open. HMmm another way?

select bone, open Set Skelegon weight panel, select weight...oh damn, there are 56 of them, which one? HMMM another way?


Here is what I am down to:

I highlight a bone, and with weight shade turned on, I start selecting the weights 1 by 1 untill the area around highlighted bone is lit up, THEN I can use the 'Set Skelegon Weight' panel. The bone is selected, the correct weight is showing down on the bottom right of interface, so I just dropdown list of weights in panel and select correct one.

And then I go to another bone and do the same thing over and over till all bones are done.

So far there are 609 bones to do and I haven't started on face or added any muscle or tendon bones.
What use to take 30 min or so to just match names, I can now see taking a day or 2 each time I change something, because every time I take a rig into vertex paint, the XX numbers change, so if I add something, then I need to go thru whole process again to get the right maps put to the correct bones.


Do you see an easier way?

Skelegon Tree is not your friend. I just don't use it at all in my Genoma workflow. Same applies to the automatic weighting performed by Vertex Paint.

I longer prefer to define the weights on the mesh selecting the polygons I want to be affected, and creating them. You normally do not need a lot of weights for a character (and, as you know, sometimes you normally don't need weights at all, or only where really needed).

Then selecting the skelegons in the viewport and assigning the weight using the improved Set Skelegon Weight tool, that now it's showing the list of weights present in the model, it's a very fast operation.

You have defined a weight map for the Left Arm on the mesh? You select all the skelegons defining the arm from the viewport and use Set Skelegon Weight, then choose the right map from the list and it's done.

Vertex Paint creates one weight per skelegon, which it's horrible (especially considering that there are many skelegons that will not participate to the mesh deformation, or will be deleted when the rig it's created).

My next Genoma Video should really clarify better what the workflow of creating and assigning weight-maps should be. ;)

prospector
02-07-2013, 12:23 PM
Skelegon Tree is not your friend.
I see it no longer is.

Vertex Paint creates one weight per skelegon, which it's horrible (especially considering that there are many skelegons that will not participate to the mesh deformation, or will be deleted when the rig it's created).

True, so I never use them in vertex paint. I copy all the bones I NEED weights on into another layer and use THEM in Vertex paint to make weights. I get no connector or anything like them as weights, same as I have always done with the old way of making IK systems.


lertola2

How many weight maps do you have? Did you use Vertex Paint to automatically create weights for the genoma bones? I don't think that will work well. You can set the weight for a lot of bones at once. For example you can select all the bones in the leg then use the set skelegon weight to assign them all to the same weight map.



I need all these weights for deforming individual bones as I use the weights for other stuff in layout (using gradient tool), like changing textures for a few frames, making particles disperse from particular areas of body (think a boxer getting hit and sweat shoosting off of skin and skin bruising) or (particles coming from just fingertips while skin changes to particle color and also glowing and making glowing orb)...that kind of stuff...So yea, all weights are needed as separate areas.

- - - Updated - - -


My next Genoma Video should really clarify better what the workflow of creating and assigning weight-maps should be.
So..we looking at maby an hour before it's released? :D

UnCommonGrafx
02-07-2013, 02:35 PM
I caught the vids going up last night approximately 24 hrs ago, 'round this time so... maybe.

Prospector, this is my theory:
Those colors and different shapes are confusing for us 'oldtimers'. (Heck, anyone who has used a skelegon falls under this category, by the way. {just had a birthday; must be sensitive})
I digress...


The visual cacophony we now are privy to feels like culture shock; the colors and shapes... where are the skelegons, I hear myself ask. If you take all these weird shapes in the places they are, assign them to the weight maps as Lino says, it goes the same exact way it used to with regular old skelegons.

Or so I see. This thought has gotten my head and arm separated as I animate. And it makes me see the simplicity in their setup.


Haha, imagine this scenario: teaching some students the newness of 11.5 with genoma and bullet. One signs, "Man, that's simple."
High School kids and three d. I have fun. [email protected] by day, this one by night.


Finally, Kudos to NT's LW Group for this stellar and exemplar release.

Burchigb
02-07-2013, 04:27 PM
Lino Grandi I am looking forward to the weight map tut.

lino.grandi
02-08-2013, 02:46 AM
Lino Grandi I am looking forward to the weight map tut.

And you'll get it! ;)

man777
02-08-2013, 04:40 AM
Today? :)

Hail
02-08-2013, 04:48 AM
And you'll get it! ;)

Waiting... impatiently ;)

man777
02-08-2013, 04:54 AM
Want to add that I had figured by myself the bone weight stuff... seriously Lino, I don't know if this Genoma has all been developped by you (maybe others too), but this is the most wonderful thing I've known in 3D since, well let's say Zbrush.
You definitely are genius guys.
I hate rigging, you have no idea! :D You will save me so much time I can't even imagine. All the new features are really great, but Sir, Genoma in itself is pure gold!!!

The only bad thing is that we still can't import Zbrush polygroups anymore (unless I missed something), as we used to previously. Which makes GoZ almost useless... this is a real shame! :(

This apart, 11.5 is a dream come true. Thank you all for that.

Bax33
02-08-2013, 07:47 AM
This question isn't about the naming but about how to use. I'm obvisously doing something wrong, but I don't know what. I watched the video tutorial and did the same thing only without the mesh and I don't get the same movement. Here is what I did: Openned Modler and selected the Rt Hand Rig in layer 1 (no modeling on any layer). I repositioned the hand rig and saved the object. Then I sent it to layout. In Layout I clicked Create Rig and it did, which made the bones visible. Then I selected the little spheres at the base of the fingers and tried to rotate. When this was done in the video, the fingers curled. But when I do it the fingers just move like a plank of wood up or down. What am I missing? Why isn't this working for me?

thanks

man777
02-08-2013, 07:49 AM
Use the right button of the mouse, not the left, and drag in the empty space.

RebelHill
02-08-2013, 07:58 AM
Rotate on bank. Pitch curls the first knuckle, heading spreads the first, bank curls the second and third.

Bax33
02-08-2013, 08:01 AM
Doh!! I could sware I tried both the left and right mouse button, but apparently I did not. Using the Rt mouse button and dragging in space did the trick. Thanks much.

man777
02-08-2013, 08:11 AM
My pleasure. :)

Spinland
02-08-2013, 08:51 AM
In his Rigging Revealed videos Lino goes a little into why he sets up finger controllers like that. I know some people hate rigging by hand but I recommend them as great background material.

CaptainMarlowe
02-08-2013, 08:54 AM
+1 with Spinland. After seing these tuts, I was not better at rigging, but at least I understood how professionals did work.

lino.grandi
02-08-2013, 03:17 PM
Waiting... impatiently ;)

Doing my best!

- - - Updated - - -


Want to add that I had figured by myself the bone weight stuff... seriously Lino, I don't know if this Genoma has all been developped by you (maybe others too), but this is the most wonderful thing I've known in 3D since, well let's say Zbrush.
You definitely are genius guys.
I hate rigging, you have no idea! :D You will save me so much time I can't even imagine. All the new features are really great, but Sir, Genoma in itself is pure gold!!!

The only bad thing is that we still can't import Zbrush polygroups anymore (unless I missed something), as we used to previously. Which makes GoZ almost useless... this is a real shame! :(

This apart, 11.5 is a dream come true. Thank you all for that.

Thank you for your kind words.

man777
02-08-2013, 03:50 PM
Please, I mean them. :)
Have a nice day or night, depending of where you are. ^^

geo_n
02-08-2013, 07:30 PM
Where is the Spline Ik feature in lw 11 that was talked about in Siggraph?

jwiede
02-08-2013, 08:52 PM
Where is the Spline Ik feature in lw 11 that was talked about in Siggraph?
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well.

geo_n
02-08-2013, 10:39 PM
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well.

Yeah, would be great to have a native spline IK that Lino talked about at Siggraph

lino.grandi
02-09-2013, 02:03 AM
Yeah, would be great to have a native spline IK that Lino talked about at Siggraph

I didn't say it would have been available in 11.5. I just said that since Genoma can be easily expanded, once a spline IK will be available in LightWave (which his very important and so needed!) it will be part of Genoma subrigs. At the moment, the best replacement for it it's the IKBooster subrig.

MAUROCOR
02-09-2013, 03:42 AM
Where is the Spline Ik feature in lw 11 that was talked about in Siggraph?

And the pressure never stops!!!:D

geo_n
02-09-2013, 04:41 AM
I didn't say it would have been available in 11.5. I just said that since Genoma can be easily expanded, once a spline IK will be available in LightWave (which his very important and so needed!) it will be part of Genoma subrigs. At the moment, the best replacement for it it's the IKBooster subrig.

Thanks for the info. Imho its better to say asap what is going to be there than let people expect endlessly without knowing.
Better to over deliver than not to hit the goal later on.

Kryslin
02-10-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Spline controllers : I've had some success using nodal motion, having created a node setup that will do a Catmull-Rom spline evaluation; Use that to control the position of targets, , and you've got a spline control for a spine or long tail. There are problems; you need lots of targets, plus an additional 2 (one before the start, and one before the end), and my understanding of the various spaces is shaky at best, so that makes it difficult to set up as things have to be aligned perfectly, or everything is in world space...

prospector
03-27-2013, 02:17 PM
The visual cacophony we now are privy to feels like culture shock; the colors and shapes... where are the skelegons, I hear myself ask. If you take all these weird shapes in the places they are, assign them to the weight maps as Lino says, it goes the same exact way it used to with regular old skelegons.

I realize that (as an old timer also trying to make transition) :)

But The names..THE NAMES !!!

Looking in the skelegon tree panel, I have no idea what bones are what to match the weights.

They don't highlite in the panel for selection, and ya can't even do ANY selecting with that panel open.

Skelegon Editor on otherhand DOES work to select bone (whatever name may be) and then match up weightmap.

HOWEVER
Skelegon Editor consistently goes into hard lock at random times...but very very often.
Must CRTL-ALT-DEL to get out of it, reload modeler and model, and try again.

Down to Opening Skelegon Editor, highliting 1 bone, set weightmap, getting out of Skelegon Editor (if I MAKE IT that far), saving object, starting again

I've looked around and do have the newest ver (2009)


ARRggg

photoguy1278
05-08-2013, 04:12 PM
I'm also pretty new to lightwave. I added weight maps to the body parts of a high poly human but the joints deform in a really sharp way since the edge flow is so close together. Looks like the arm-pits and upper legs are tearing apart from the body. What is the best way to allow some blending of the weights at the joints?