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Snosrap
02-02-2013, 05:06 PM
After loading Matt’s 11.5 Modeler Tools Menu Branch that he graciously made available, I thought I’d go through them one by one and see how the tools worked. So here my opinions and comments about the five new “Modeler Tools” from his menu branch. I’ll tackle the others later, but for now here are my comments. Please keep in mind this is meant to be constructive. Also, to be fair, I have not read any of the docs about these new tools . I fully intend to, but what better way to see how user friendly they are. :)

1. Edit Edges. The fast preview and deformation render modes make it pretty much useless for SubD work on those modes as the SubD’s revert to hard polys when activated – hopefully that can be corrected in a future build. I like the pre-lighting of the edge loops and the Ctrl clicking to just slide that portion of the edge and not the complete loop. One thing that is needed however is an indication when the Shift button is pressed to show that you are now going to delete/remove the edge loop. (Maybe the edge hi-lighting could change to red – I think Core did that.:)) Also when wanting to make new loops it would be nice to see a pre-lit indication of the direction it’s going to make the new loop. Also the tool needs to delete the last points when there is an open face.

2. Thicken. One of the best implementations of a thicken command I’ve ever used! Even modo’s.

3. Line Pen. I’m scratching my head on this one. It could be great - but really - no way to continue drawing from the last point? Maybe the docs will shed some light on this. I also found some bugs, so maybe I need to make a video.

4. Slice. Seems to work well. I just wish the dashed line followed my cursor around instead of waiting to be drawn until I get to a point or an edge. Maybe it could be drawn and then the cursor could change shape when you get to a place in the geometry (point or edge) where it is acceptable to make a legal slice. (But then why can’t I make a slice in an arbitrary location?)

5. Chamfer. Pretty nice first effort! It’s great that it works on points, edges and polys! Although it needs an option to “round” the chamfer. It also needs the “right click” to trigger the tool again like Bevel, Smooth Shift, Multi Shift and others. The “Group Polygons” is a good feature as well as the “Subpatch Friendly” button, but one’s got to ask – if Catmull-Clark CC’s actually worked wouldn’t this be unnecessary?

Anyway, that’s my short comments about the five new “Modeler Tools”. Hopefully this will get some good discussions going on these new tools. I’ll post some comments about “Transform Tools”, “Utility Tools” and “Other” when I get a chance.

Here is the link to his "Menu Branch". http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?132513-LightWave-11-5-Release-Update-Discussion&p=1297347&viewfull=1#post1297347

hrgiger
02-02-2013, 05:17 PM
5. Chamfer. Pretty nice first effort! It’s great that it works on points, edges and polys! Although it needs an option to “round” the chamfer.

Then it would no longer be a chamfer, rounding would make it a fillet.

Snosrap
02-02-2013, 05:22 PM
Then it would no longer be a chamfer, rounding would make it a fillet. You are correct. I'm just looking for some possible tool consolidation. :thumbsup:

hrgiger
02-02-2013, 06:26 PM
I agree, a tool consolidation does need to happen although I would like to see chamfer remain a chamfer. There's no need for a dozen bevel tools for example (smooth shift, extrude, bevel, edge-bevel, multi-shift, etc...) And in all honesty, bevel in LightWave is not named correctly because its primarily an extrusion tool. Rounder could be eliminated and in its place made a fillet tool. So ideally, I would like to see the following tools remain(and added) and all the rest of the bevel tools thrown out.

Chamfer
Fillet
And finally an Extrude tool which contains the following options: extrude individual or grouped polygons, rounding with concave or convex option, and possibly the use of profiles. Should work on point, polys and edges. Ideally should have built in handle that would allow you to scale, translate, and rotate extrusions so you don't have to drop the tool to create multi-extrusion.

Lewis
02-02-2013, 06:47 PM
1. Edit Edges. The fast preview and deformation render modes make it pretty much useless for SubD work on those modes as the SubD’s revert to hard polys when activated – hopefully that can be corrected in a future build. I like the pre-lighting of the edge loops and the Ctrl clicking to just slide that portion of the edge and not the complete loop. One thing that is needed however is an indication when the Shift button is pressed to show that you are now going to delete/remove the edge loop. (Maybe the edge hi-lighting could change to red – I think Core did that.:)) Also when wanting to make new loops it would be nice to see a pre-lit indication of the direction it’s going to make the new loop. Also the tool needs to delete the last points when there is an open face.

Agreed with most things and I'd add another one - Ability to SLIDE edges but not jut loop or indivudual but SELECTION of edges also (I use 3rd party tool for tha tnow)



2. Thicken. One of the best implementations of a thicken command I’ve ever used! Even modo’s.

Agrred, it works great and it's replace dme great HDPumpit now (which works 99% same but it's 3rd party and not free so great to hav enative now).



3. Line Pen. I’m scratching my head on this one. It could be great - but really - no way to continue drawing from the last point? Maybe the docs will shed some light on this. I also found some bugs, so maybe I need to make a video.

You need to HOLD LMB and drag, let it SNAP to last point and then Hold/DRAG and you'll be able to creat polys from last location, It's weird at first ('coz classic pen tool worh with clicks and not holding) but after while you can get gripe on it easily. I'm using it for Retopology on BG layer, works great as long as ther eis gometry behind to snap on :).




4. Slice. Seems to work well. I just wish the dashed line followed my cursor around instead of waiting to be drawn until I get to a point or an edge. Maybe it could be drawn and then the cursor could change shape when you get to a place in the geometry (point or edge) where it is acceptable to make a legal slice. (But then why can’t I make a slice in an arbitrary location?)

I'm not fan of Slice tool, i don't see what it offer great vs Add Edges tool we have from before, it even has less info/data than Add edges (no percentag einfo/display).



5. Chamfer. Pretty nice first effort! It’s great that it works on points, edges and polys! Although it needs an option to “round” the chamfer. It also needs the “right click” to trigger the tool again like Bevel, Smooth Shift, Multi Shift and others. The “Group Polygons” is a good feature as well as the “Subpatch Friendly” button, but one’s got to ask – if Catmull-Clark CC’s actually worked wouldn’t this be unnecessary?

Chamfer is great at some occasions (open edges) and yet not so great at other situations (breaks round loops at edges, creates N-gons in some cases even with subDs friendly option) but my main gripe is why we couldn't get single tool what does it all? Tool combined from Rounder , Edge bevel bevel and multishift+smooth shift, now i have 5 shortcuts occupied instead one or two tops 'coz each one can and can't do something different :(.

BUT i love Translate tool (with my own gizmo remodeled ;)) and All Axis Scale/Rotate/Translate tools - feells like some cool CAD program, now they just need ot add NURBS and we are on path to Valhalla :) :D.

hrgiger
02-02-2013, 06:50 PM
I'm not fan of Slice tool, i don't see what it offer great vs Add Edges tool we have from before, it even has less info/data than Add edges (no percentag einfo/display).





My main gripe with slice is that once you click, your new point is locked in place and that makes it less useful then add edges as well.

prometheus
02-04-2013, 05:23 AM
There´s six..if not more tools..
Tweak tool, great addition letting you right mouse click and extend geometry, poly,edges etc..
A little difficult some times when you use ctrl to constrain axis, and your trying to move/extend out in normal direction, instead it locks on planar axis when moving, sometimes that is.
seems dependent on how or where you click in perspective window.

Michael

alexs3d
02-04-2013, 05:36 AM
the new modeling tools are awesome, i need them so much now for modeling.

for the tweak tool it would be cool to have also the snapping option like in the other tools, would be great for retopology work.

for the edit edges tool it would be great when this tool works with symmetry mode

the transform tool is so easy and extremely helpful, right click select axis -> transform ... and so on... wonderfull :)

MarcusM
02-04-2013, 06:14 AM
Transform tool is good replacement for Move and Rotate tool. I reported that Transform not showing offset in left bottom corner.

Slice tool? Add Edge is much better ;]

I expecting further developing UV tools after ABF UV Unwrap :) However, i must continue to use PLG UV and PoinMoveOnEdge.

prometheus
02-04-2013, 07:36 AM
I love the tweak tool more and more, some minor annoying things when moving out from normals in perspective view since it dont do that correctly depending on where I start to move or perspective viewpoint rotation.

if you want to move poly constrained, it says use shift left mouse, but you can do that with the mouse only (middle mouse button) this is so speedy when hovering
over edged and middle mouse click to move, if you want to extend, just right click carefully once and then middle mouse to move.

I would like to see..snapping as mentioned, scaling, and multiselection of polys or edges implemented in a nice way..maybe ctrl and mousebutton for multi selection..that would rock.

Overall ..this is a very nice tool and it works fast and smooth.
Might add that it feels faster than what modo does..when selection is displayed hovering over with the mouse, but I haven´t checked latest modo versions.

Michael

Snosrap
02-04-2013, 01:39 PM
I just discovered something that I have been clamoring for forever - context awareness! The Chamfer tool knows whether you have points, edges or polys selected! :)AMAZING!:) But seriously, it does show that NT is aware of some long standing issues with their toolset. The Chamfer tool has permanently replaced the Edge Bevel tool for me. :thumbsup:

Snosrap
02-04-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm not fan of Slice tool, i don't see what it offer great vs Add Edges tool we have from before, it even has less info/data than Add edges (no percentag einfo/display).
Yes, after spending more time with it I agree. It really doesn't bring anything new or better to the table, plus it's totally worthless on SubD geometry.

Lewis
02-04-2013, 03:11 PM
I just discovered something that I have been clamoring for forever - context awareness! The Chamfer tool knows whether you have points, edges or polys selected! :)AMAZING!:) But seriously, it does show that NT is aware of some long standing issues with their toolset. The Chamfer tool has permanently replaced the Edge Bevel tool for me. :thumbsup:

Heheh yes i know the feelign, Chamfer is great and coudl easily repalce bevel soon also (they just need to make Multishift tons faster first ;)) but don't dismiss EdgeBevel just yet. There is still few ocasions where it does better job than Chamfer, it's rare but still different in some cases ;).

hrgiger
02-04-2013, 03:16 PM
Yes, after spending more time with it I agree. It really doesn't bring anything new or better to the table, plus it's totally worthless on SubD geometry.

Do you actually model with SubD turned on? I'm just curious because I never do.

GraphXs
02-04-2013, 03:44 PM
Great tool additions! I agree, I love the context awareness, hope they can have it on all the time when mouse floats over objects. Though I suppose it's good for just tools only.

-Tweak tool is nice, and I agree about the constraints.
-Edit Edge is pretty nice, but I prefer True Arts Swift Edge Loop, has a-little more features. Edit Edge has an issue with removing points when they go to an edge.

Snosrap
02-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Do you actually model with SubD turned on? I'm just curious because I never do. All the time.

Snosrap
02-04-2013, 08:31 PM
There is still few ocasions where it does better job than Chamfer, it's rare but still different in some cases ;). Time and usage will tell.

djwaterman
02-04-2013, 09:53 PM
The one thing that slice tool brings that is better than Edit Edges is that it doesn't put all those blue dots all over the geometry, those dots would be tolerable if they were only displayed on facing geometry but you can see them on back facing geometry too and it can get really confusing. These two tools merged into one with the best of both combined would be the thing.

djwaterman
02-04-2013, 10:52 PM
You need to HOLD LMB and drag, let it SNAP to last point and then Hold/DRAG and you'll be able to creat polys from last location, It's weird at first ('coz classic pen tool worh with clicks and not holding) but after while you can get gripe on it easily. I'm using it for Retopology on BG layer, works great as long as ther eis gometry behind to snap on :).



:D.


Lewis, does this mean that Lightwave now has a re-topology solution?

Philbert
02-04-2013, 11:57 PM
Lewis, does this mean that Lightwave now has a re-topology solution?

I just tried this and yes it can be used for retopo, but it's rather crude. Also remember Modeler can only handle so many polys, not 50 million or something that you might get from a sculpting app like 3D-Coat or a dense 3D scan.

http://content.screencast.com/users/philnolan3d/folders/Jing/media/36b9101b-fe56-48e8-a991-ed3119c11a89/02.05.2013-01.55.png

Lewis
02-05-2013, 12:40 AM
Lewis, does this mean that Lightwave now has a re-topology solution?

Well i wouldn't call it full blown retopo tool but it's heck lot better than what we had so far (NOTHING) :) :). To be fully usable we need to handle much more polys (for Background) but for some medium polycounts it's already very usable. also not sure did NT even wanted for LinePen to be used as retopo but it might be lucky coincidence.

For my taste beside obvious speed factor we need 2 more snap options (in those on hover HUD boxes which IMHO should be re-positionable as user wishes to any corner and horizontal/vertical) - We still need FG and BG for Foreground and Background snapping.

Philbert
02-05-2013, 01:16 AM
I did a quick test of the UV unwrapping and noticed that there was a tiny bit of overlap between some islands that should have space between them so double check your UV maps after unwrapping.

Silkrooster
02-05-2013, 01:53 AM
The one thing I would like to see, is for the new tools that provide text help in the view port, is make the text larger or an option for multiple sizes and to disable. Assuming it isn't already there.

Lewis
02-05-2013, 02:17 AM
The one thing I would like to see, is for the new tools that provide text help in the view port, is make the text larger or an option for multiple sizes and to disable. Assuming it isn't already there.

HELP text can be turned off in numeric panel. Still cant' be bigger/resizeed but OFF/On is there

probiner
02-05-2013, 08:12 AM
All the time.

Catmull I presume :)

Snosrap
02-05-2013, 11:55 AM
Catmull I presume :)I will use CC's sometimes when using "Add Edges" and at other times when an operation would break SubDs'. But I always finish up the model with just quads and the occasional tri. The new Slice tool has no render mode options but I did discover that if you use "Slice" directly after using one of the other new tools in Normal mode, "Slice" will also function in Normal mode which makes it usable with SubD's. --- This no doubt has to be a bug.

jwiede
02-05-2013, 12:22 PM
The new Slice tool has no render mode options but I did discover that if you use "Slice" directly after using one of the other new tools in Normal mode, "Slice" will also function in Normal mode which makes it usable with SubD's. --- This no doubt has to be a bug.
Sounds like the mode control was accidentally omitted from Slice, clearly users shouldn't have to fire up another tool just to change preview mode in Slice. Are you going to fog it?

jwiede
02-05-2013, 12:26 PM
For my taste beside obvious speed factor we need 2 more snap options (in those on hover HUD boxes which IMHO should be re-positionable as user wishes to any corner and horizontal/vertical) - We still need FG and BG for Foreground and Background snapping.
Also fast creation of (constrained) fans & strips are essential, IMO, if seriously aiming to be a retopo tool. Drawing poly by poly for serious retopo work is an RSI looking for a place to happen.

valu
02-05-2013, 01:03 PM
Agreed!!!
Snap to back ground is really missing here.
I don't think it's a hard thing to wright, since we got Place Tool that uses sort of same technology .

Snosrap
02-05-2013, 01:22 PM
Are you going to fog it?Sure did. Case #56176.

dnch
02-14-2013, 05:59 AM
Chamfer and slice are the best LW updates since 7.5, it sudenly returns lightwave modeler back to current day of modern 3d programs, i love it

Lewis
02-14-2013, 06:18 AM
Chamfer and slice are the best LW updates since 7.5, it sudenly returns lightwave modeler back to current day of modern 3d programs, i love it

Slice ? Really ? I guess you never used Add Edges (native for quite some time) if Slice is so good for you ?

And I do agree that tools are great (all of them added in 11.5) but let's not try to overblown situation, we are stil far away from modern of todays 3d modeling programs since we still miss many stuff to be there.

dnch
02-14-2013, 07:19 AM
slice.. well it preserves uvs and behaves how it should, add edges were weird.. the same way bevel edges were weird
im not overblowning the situation, lw is still miles behind in lot of things (but i still dont have time, nerves or the money to switch packages, also i really hate all those interfaces) but this is the step in the right direction.. the modeler feels more robust than in 11 and im looking forward to new 3d projects with lw 11.5

Philbert
02-14-2013, 03:05 PM
I've been using Slice a lot over the past couple of days and I'm really liking it. The one nice thing Add Edges has over it is that the handles are adjustable before you commit to the cut.

Lewis
02-14-2013, 03:15 PM
I've been using Slice a lot over the past couple of days and I'm really liking it. The one nice thing Add Edges has over it is that the handles are adjustable before you commit to the cut.

And that it shows value/percentage of each dot across edge while Slice is not :(.

ncr100
08-16-2014, 05:12 PM
(Line Pen)
You need to HOLD LMB and drag, let it SNAP to last point and then Hold/DRAG and you'll be able to creat polys from last location, It's weird at first ('coz classic pen tool worh with clicks and not holding) but after while you can get gripe on it easily. I'm using it for Retopology on BG layer, works great as long as ther eis gometry behind to snap on :) .... :) :D.

Line Pen makes me scratch my head since it gets in this mode of being unable to select anything.


You may need to test this using a trackpad since using a mouse or a drawing tablet introduces a lot of random movement in your cursor but the tablet allows you to remain stable
Choose Line Pen
Draw a line from point A to point B by pressing down at A, holding, dragging to B, and releasing
Now, Don't Move! You should _Not_ be able to see the popup word "VERTEX"...stay still. And, start drawing from point B to C by pressing down again and dragging to C. This doesn't work - no line is drawn - and you are stuck.
Drop the Line Pen tool and reactivate it
You can move again


Is this a feature?