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blackvx
01-25-2013, 01:53 PM
Hi,
I am trying to put a 3 text sticking to an uneven surface (like a mountain or blanket). I have been trying to use the collision and gravity features but I am struggling with the parameters to not make the letters bounce of fall underneath the surface. I'm sure there is an easier way to do this! I'm not building an animation. I just to render one frame.
Can anyone point me to the right direction to do this?
Thanks!
Michael

nickdigital
01-25-2013, 02:06 PM
If you're just doing a still why not place them manually? Or are you trying to get cloth to drape over your text? Wasn't 100% clear on what you're doing.

OnlineRender
01-25-2013, 02:12 PM
or use sticky surface ...

OnlineRender
01-25-2013, 02:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzgFeBA48Eo

blackvx
01-25-2013, 02:17 PM
I am putting a bunch of zeros and ones on a uneven surface. It would be too long to do this manually. So the numbers are going to be on top of the uneven surface.
Thanks!

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 02:27 PM
Clone+ (http://www.artssphere.com/plugins/cloneplus.php)?

Put your 1s and 0s on separate layers, uneven surface in another. Make uneven surface the foreground with a number in background. Slecet polys on foreground surface.... run clone plus.

.... if I understand correctly. :)

first image I manually selected two polys.
second image I let the plugin do it randomly based on 5% coverage. (be careful, plug will try to put a clone on every poly to start, so if you have a ten thousand polys .......)

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 02:31 PM
Also, OnMove (http://www.pictrix.jp/lw/OnMove/index.html) (32)

demo vid here (http://www.pictrix.jp/lw/OnMove/mov.html)

Just to name two... I'm sure there are many more plugs. :thumbsup:

blackvx
01-25-2013, 02:51 PM
Thanks guys, the sticky works but just for one number. I have all the numbers on the same layer. I'll try OnMove and let you know.


Thanks!

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 03:05 PM
for multiple cloning, I think clone+ is the better bet.....

blackvx
01-25-2013, 03:06 PM
I tried to import the OnMove but it says "cannot load external plugin file ...\OnMove.p".
I'm running modeler 11.0.2

Alright I think I'll go back to the collision option. It's such a pain to get it right. I have some numbers sliding down the slope (I guess that's the friction parameter), others that actually go through the uneven surface...

Edited ---
Ok I'll try clone + but will it work for hundres of numbers (1001001010110010010) ?

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 03:22 PM
ah...... you mean like a train of ones and zeros snaking around in a line on an uneven plane?
That's a little different. If you have a string of ones and zeros on a single layer, clone+ will treat it as one object.

Bit of a different problem, if that's the case. hmmmmm.
If your looking more for what I have above, give c+ a try.

blackvx
01-25-2013, 03:28 PM
It's more like several rows of numbers that I am trying to make them stick on uneven surface

1001001010110010010
0100101110101001101
1001001010110010010
0100101110101001101
1001001010110010010
0100101110101001101
1001001010110010010
0100101110101001101

Yes they are all in the same layer. With the clone + it seems that I have to assign one by one each number to the surface right?

How do you usually, let's say, add several trees on a mountain?

Thanks for your help,
Michael

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 03:42 PM
well, if you're in 11, I'd say using instancing. Don't know how that would react to a grid formation like that.....
(I'm on 9.6..... sorry.)

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 03:57 PM
in 9.6 I'd still use C+ (assuming that your uneven plane still has some semblance of a grid)
I did it in just two steps.... first the ones than the zeros.

blackvx
01-25-2013, 04:00 PM
Holy sardines! Let me look into that! If I can remove the randomness and get this in order that would be great.
Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I just saw you C+ example. hey that is pretty close to what I want to do!

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 04:08 PM
this orientation too. didn't know which u were looking for.....

blackvx
01-25-2013, 04:19 PM
That yes! So you did the 1s and considered the holes to fit the 0s?
I just found this neat tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCSITbvo_Q
Thanks!

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 04:56 PM
yes, I think you've got the idea....

The first image here is my wavy plane...... still has a pretty good grid to it.
Within that wavy plane i selected a pattern of random polys and cloned the 1 to those polys.
I then selected the inverse to clone the 0s to. (second and third images).

All together, the initial random selection and the inverse selection must form a complete rectangle within the wavy plane, otherwise u will have gaps in the formation.

Remember clone+ gives you a bunch of good parameters you can play with.
I played with scale, Unchecked scale to poly, checked use Normal, and most importantly, set the result to be in new layer (headache saver).

It's not completely perfect.... some 1s and 0s may go through or float a hair. You can play with offset but that will just make some better and some worse (that's more useful for single clone manipulation or if everything is off by the same amount in the same direction).

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 05:15 PM
I just found this neat tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCSITbvo_Q
Thanks!

Ah, classic Proton. Great technique.
But, a) less control over where the clones are. In the video it's every single point. If you say to use less vertices than the object has, the result will be random. not a grid within the ground object. You could use a second object that is a section of the ground plane and use all vertices........ but......
B) you are going to have a harder time controlling the 1 and 0 back and forth going about it that way.

Maybe if you use weight maps to control birth rate etc etc but then you're just making more work for yourself. (Or not. Do what you are comfortable with I always say)

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s395/joepoe1/1s0s.jpg

on this one you can see how the 1s are a little low in the far two rows......

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s395/joepoe1/1s0s2.jpg

blackvx
01-25-2013, 05:31 PM
I'm getting there! I just need to play with this a little bit more. Thanks!
110668

JoePoe
01-25-2013, 05:37 PM
Good!!
One last thing. Having "scale to polygon" checked WILL change the size slightly because polys have been stretched in the ground wave process. That may be what u want.....
Uncheck it if you want them all to be truly the same size.

jeric_synergy
01-25-2013, 05:40 PM
To make your life easier: remember there is a SELECT EVERY NTH function.

Hide the polys you don't want at all, then use SELECT EVERY NTH to get alternating selections.

blackvx
01-25-2013, 08:05 PM
Thanks for helping out! You saved me :-)


Good!!
One last thing. Having "scale to polygon" checked WILL change the size slightly because polys have been stretched in the ground wave process. That may be what u want.....
Uncheck it if you want them all to be truly the same size.

dee
01-26-2013, 03:44 AM
There's also 'Ground Those Objects' for Layout: http://www.pepperchrome.com/Tools.html

Surrealist.
01-26-2013, 04:39 AM
Also you can use FX hard Link on a grid deformed by cloth and colliding with an object in the shape you want. FX hard link object is the numbers. Parented the numbers to the grid (cloth object). Set the cloth settings of Spring and Sub Structure to 3000 to keep the polys aligned well and give it some collision radius on the shape object (green) which has collision assigned to it. The numbers will deform but keep their hard shape. (with it set to Poly) This way you can always edit the letters how you want. Easy to copy and past them any way you want them in Modeler. You can change the shape of the shape object any time and recalculate. Change the numbers any way you want any time and always just come back to the sim to recalc. Freeze trans when you are done on a frame that looks good. Depending on the shape you want of course this is a very flexible solution.

110679

Hieron
01-26-2013, 05:44 AM
.....
How do you usually, let's say, add several trees on a mountain?

Thanks for your help,
Michael

instancing.

are you concerned about the exact placement of the 1's and 0's. Is there some magic order needed, or just "surface covered with 0's and 1's". because that is real easy

if you need specific order, just create 2 point louds, 1 each for both 0 and 1 and displace it in the same way as the distorted plane. instace 0 and 1 to it, done. ?

daforum
01-26-2013, 06:08 AM
Found OnMove for LW11 (it's for Mac OSX 10.6+): http://www.pictrix.jp/?p=5994

Also one for LW9+ (Windows 64bit):http://www.pictrix.jp/?p=6348

Hope it helps :)

jeric_synergy
01-26-2013, 10:19 PM
Also you can use FX hard Link on a grid deformed by cloth and colliding with an object in the shape you want. FX hard link object is the numbers. Parented the numbers to the grid (cloth object). Set the cloth settings of Spring and Sub Structure to 3000 to keep the polys aligned well and give it some collision radius on the shape object (green) which has collision assigned to it. The numbers will deform but keep their hard shape. (with it set to Poly) This way you can always edit the letters how you want. Easy to copy and past them any way you want them in Modeler. You can change the shape of the shape object any time and recalculate. Change the numbers any way you want any time and always just come back to the sim to recalc. Freeze trans when you are done on a frame that looks good. Depending on the shape you want of course this is a very flexible solution.
110679
rats, I was hoping this approach, FX_HardLink, would work with Endomorphs, but apparently (so far) it does not.

Does FX_HardLink only track changes made by FX type stuff, i.e. Clothfx and etc?

jeric_synergy
01-26-2013, 11:10 PM
Good news: it is true that HardLink only works w/FX stuff, but then I remembered you can use ClothFX to record ANY distortion.

(BTW, i think this fairly well-known application of ClothFX, recording point displacement, could use MUCH more highlighting in the dox. In fact, that portion of ClothFX that records point position should be busted out as a separate explicit utility.)

Here's a pic of using MorphMixer to distort the cloth object, with HardLink on the numbers:

110711

The nice thing here is you have total control over the morph target, no messing around w/collision objects, it's perfectly static.

+++
ADDITION: So, this technique isn't bad, but I'd like the numbers to NOT pitch forward on extreme slopes (see image):
110712
How can I limit their rotation so this unattractive tipping is eliminated?

Surrealist.
01-27-2013, 02:26 AM
Yeah, that is an old trick that works too. I forgot. It also works with Soft Body.

So you can do all kinds of things like deform with bones as far as I remember and as long as you calc a blank sim both Metalink and Hard link will do the trick with different effects.

I have not been working with LightWave much lately so these things are kind of slow to come back to me....

Thanks for the tag team effort!

vector
01-27-2013, 03:02 AM
Not sure if it could help you, but take a look to the last post of Rebelhill in that thread http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131232-Sticky-and-parenting-surfaces-to-lights&highlight=

jeric_synergy
01-27-2013, 09:11 AM
One thing: there's a lot of "updating" required with my method- for some reason Layout seems to lose the program and either nothing happens at all, or pieces go flying off in all directions.

A couple of noodges in Modeler, a couple deactivations of plugins or reapplications, and it works again. But WHAT is going south???

Started a radiosity render last night, went to bed, came back this morning and the MorphMixer effect didn't happen! WUT? :stumped:

jeric_synergy
01-27-2013, 02:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFpT-pcc68&feature=youtu.be

Surrealist.
01-28-2013, 04:52 AM
One thing: there's a lot of "updating" required with my method- for some reason Layout seems to lose the program and either nothing happens at all, or pieces go flying off in all directions.

A couple of noodges in Modeler, a couple deactivations of plugins or reapplications, and it works again. But WHAT is going south???

Started a radiosity render last night, went to bed, came back this morning and the MorphMixer effect didn't happen! WUT? :stumped:

Updates between Modeler and Layout with morphs is very tricky. The best practice I can remember is to save the model and reload into Layout to get the morphs to update properly. There is more to that I'm sure I forget, but it is not a perfect set up and you have to baby it.

jeric_synergy
01-28-2013, 12:37 PM
Best Practice:

save the model
Quit Modeler
email model to friend in different IP zone
turn off machine
remove hard drives and motherboard, separate physically
destroy hard drives
melt motherboard
move to opposite side of planet
buy new machine and new LW
retrieve model from friend
animate
repeat as necessary.

JoePoe
01-28-2013, 06:18 PM
Hey jeric - I'm diggin' it!

Used SoftFX.... cloth (for me) didn't like the second half of the morph (coming back to flat).
I did get the "fly away" you referred to when changing the numbers object (I've done several patterns :hey:). A quick delete and reapply of the hard link on the numbers fixed it in no time (the "reset/reset all" in the hardlink panel didn't do nuttin" :))
I also like that the surfacing behaves according to the original position. I used a simple gradient in the y. Guess I could have a weight map easy enough, but more options are more options. :thumbsup:


fully animated....

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s395/joepoe1/circle10morph.jpg

jeric_synergy
01-28-2013, 06:53 PM
Used SoftFX.... cloth (for me) didn't like the second half of the morph (coming back to flat).

So, you used a morph, but used SoftFX to scan the motion?? Or you used SoftFX to create the displacement? (Scene please!)

It's kinda cruel how yours is so much better looking than mine.... :dance:

I did get the "fly away" you referred to when changing the numbers object (I've done several patterns :hey:). A quick delete and reapply of the hard link on the numbers fixed it in no time (the "reset/reset all" in the hardlink panel didn't do nuttin" :))
I'm not surprised: CLEARING stuff out is not LW's strong suite. And since it's (sometimes) difficult to know if a motion 'file' is applied, it's similarly hard to know if it's GONE. Hence those situations where you have to do a little dance to make sure things are cleared out. :devil:

That is: TMK there's no explicit indicator of when a file is generated internally and used/applied in one of the Dynamic Effects. I think that it IS displayed IF you've loaded it as a literal file. (I could be totally wrong here.) I hope the devs are striving to eradicate this pointlessly confusing information hiding, and information hiding in general.

I also like that the surfacing behaves according to the original position. I used a simple gradient in the y. Guess I could have a weight map easy enough, but more options are more options. :thumbsup:
Ohhh, I see what you mean. Nice. Yeah, it's not in World Space. Is it sometimes??? After displacement?


fully animated....
link to animation?

JoePoe
01-28-2013, 09:07 PM
1) yes, morph (just one.... simple) and then Soft FX to record motion. (I see now that Surrealist suggested that on the last page.... :foreheads)
2) nah.... I just threw on a gradient.
3) yeah, HardLink/MetaLink, for whatever reason seems to be lacking in feedback more than the others. (although you are looking at my full sum total experience with both :D)
4) Don't seem to remember ever having a switchover to world co-ords. If it had, I'm sure it would have bothered me, ....and, I would have remembered.
5) Re: fully animated..... The scene/effect is fully animated. I haven't rendered out the circle format.... just a few frames (let me see if I can throw together a zip if you want to see).
but I did render the first attempt..... here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYj8Qgwxy-Y) (I wish youtube had a loop video option...and I wish I knew how to upload a higher quality vid... off to google),

One extra note.... on the first attempt with the circle format the numbers, in some areas, seemed to separate a bit and get out of line. Easy fix... just subdivided the ground plane. Didn't even need to recalculate. :thumbsup: (edit: at least I don't think so...:stumped:)

JoePoe
01-28-2013, 10:03 PM
never realized MDDs were so big! (and there's an hdri in there too...:screwy:).

jeric_synergy
01-28-2013, 10:08 PM
1) yes, morph (just one.... simple) and then Soft FX to record motion.
Looking at SoftFX, I don't see a "Scan Motion" button like there is in ClothFX.

How do you scan the displacement from MorphMixer using SoftFX??? :stumped:

++
Is it via "Calculate"?
++
Joe, trying to recreate the effect as you did with SoftFX instead of ClothFX, here's some observations:

1) can't figure out if SUBDIVISION ORDER is important. I think YES, and think it should be last (?), but can't defend the idea....
2) oddly, when I applied HARDLINK to the numbers, they distorted, but theydid NOT follow the animating 'cloth' plane, they just distorted to the frame it was applied on

It seems that changing the subd Display or Render level is a grave mistake-- that seems to be the start of everything going south.

JoePoe
01-28-2013, 10:49 PM
Yes, calculate.
I was going to say you can just load the mdd for the scene, but, (it seems my second thought was correct), you are trying to recreate. :thumbsup:

Re: subD order. I can't defend what I'm about to say either: I think "order last" is most important when dealing with bones. Why?...dunno, it's been a long while since I've done anything with a bone in it (uh, let me rephrase that :ohmy:).

A few years back, I was having trouble with a cloth/collision deformation. The main fix (along with a minor setting adjustments) came from SplineGod who said to switch to subD order first. So I didn't argue..... It worked... of course.

r.i.p. :bowdown:

Re: display/render level..... My ground was not subD (just smoothing). Subdivided it in modeler.

Surrealist.
01-29-2013, 06:49 AM
Just think of the SubD order as like a node tree or stack. It is an order from bottom to top that LightWave uses to determine where to subdivide the polygons at render time if they are subdivision surfaces. Form there it should be fairly self explanatory. However we don't have access to any kind of Hypergraph or node tree to look at where things are going so in some cases it is just a try and see what works with certain plugins. In the case of the HardLink my guess would be that since it is looking at the original data of the mesh it would not matter the setting. In other words first or last should not make a difference since it is not actually deforming the points (well OK it is technically because each number is a part of the mesh) it is just treating them as a solid mesh. (of those points that are connected to polys) But... since we don't know what is happening inside, that setting could effect something and break it. But for a soft link, it would matter, in which case you'd want it to subdivide after any deformations at least. You most always want to deform the original points first and then subdivide the mesh. Especially with Cloth sims. That's another issue. But hope this info helps.

jeric_synergy
01-29-2013, 12:43 PM
However we don't have access to any kind of Hypergraph or node tree to look at where things are going so in some cases it is just a try and see what works with certain plugins.
IMO, this is a REAL big shortcoming in LW: dissecting a scene is 'wayyyy more difficult than it should be because of institutionalized information hiding. This is Bad.

There should be SOMEWHERE in the app where users can see how everything connects. Little dots beside channels are scarcely adequate, for instance.

JoePoe
01-29-2013, 04:17 PM
Thanks Sir-Realist. :hey:

So, it should work within a rational framework of logical reasoning, BUT.... when in doubt, trial and error! :D Story of my life!!

Jeric - u get the softFX..... uh...... FXing?

Surrealist.
01-30-2013, 03:04 PM
LOL yeah.

And jeric-synergy, yes, that's the old LightWave limitations. I don't know what it would take to expose that if it is possible.

The other thing that is annoying about this, is when you start stacking different things together to get an effect. Basically it works with each thing alone but when you start to combine, LightWave breaks very quickly. And not even highly complex things either. Just add one constraint, expression or deformer to the "chain" (that you can't even see or edit) and boom. It all stops working. I have had that happen many times. In some cases it might be I just am not familiar enough with how to go about it. Other times it is simply, a limitation.

jeric_synergy
01-30-2013, 03:15 PM
Just add one constraint, expression or deformer to the "chain" (that you can't even see or edit) and boom. It all stops working. I have had that happen many times. In some cases it might be I just am not familiar enough with how to go about it. Other times it is simply, a limitation.
emphasis added.

I don't know why I bother to pound this drum, but "Information Hiding is Evil", or at least counter-productive. Concealing things from the user, making it IMPOSSIBLE to see how all the bits interact, is just a Bad Idea. Not all of us are Splinegod, able to hold in our head a model of what is going on in the guts of Layout.



IF the user wants to see it, they should be able to see it.

Jim M
01-30-2013, 06:09 PM
DP kit, takes about 30 seconds, + fully editable / animateable / mixable with mdds and other motion methods.

jeric_synergy
01-30-2013, 06:13 PM
DP kit, takes about 30 seconds, + fully editable / animateable / mixable with mdds and other motion methods.
I'll believe that when I see it. Many claims are made, few proved.

adk
01-30-2013, 07:36 PM
This is a quick screen grab from the end of the movie I posted here ...

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?88118-PolyMove-Node-for-rough-crowds-perhaps&p=982666&viewfull=1#post982666

This is a few hundred boxes all in one layer, they are all the same height but scattered randomly in the Y to begin with. From memory, this uses DPKit, part move + raycast to effectively stick the boxes to the uneven surface as the layer they sit on is moved across.

At the end of the MOV (sorry that it's not clear at the begginning) you can see that the ones stuck to the terrain are all perfectly level (as per terrain undulation) & when they pop off it they return to their original (scattered) Y positions.

Can't imagine why this would not work with what's been proposed here. Either this way or even as someone else suggested, instancing.

dpont
01-31-2013, 12:13 AM
I'll believe that when I see it. Many claims are made, few proved.

Are you talking about my support? ..One particular tool? ..All tools in the Kit?
..Did I miss a report?

Denis.

Jim M
01-31-2013, 03:06 AM
"I'll believe that when I see it. Many claims are made, few proved. "

What a bizarre thing to say. Considering the quantity of DPkit based youtube videos (thankyou bryphi77!) which are all public to see, and any claims anyone else has made about Part Move / Motion info etc etc are plain to see.
I am utterly confused by that statement Jeremy. Maybe you are simply unaware of where DPkit is right now? It makes things like this utterly EASY.