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Hail
01-14-2013, 04:24 AM
Looks like autodesk is hiking up prices of their products.
Cheers maya/max/xsi users :D:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112&id=20673509

achilles
01-14-2013, 04:25 AM
Monoposlistic politic.

50one
01-14-2013, 04:32 AM
Well if you consider the state of the economy at the moment and the investors behind the ADSK that want to make profit each year, then it shouldn't be a surprise, it's just a typical business model that need to make profit in order to pay its employees and investors etc.

I cancelled my 3dsmax 2012 sub last year, it will be better for me to have modo/lw/zbrush/blender, but obviously there are people that need xsi/maya/max and need the subscription - they won't be happy, but then all the costs goes up each year, electricity/gas etc. so i don't see nothing here that would make me slag them off.

Titus
01-14-2013, 08:58 AM
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Sorry, I had to do it.

souzou
01-14-2013, 09:24 AM
Interesting that it's just the pricing for upgrades going up - obviously trying to push everyone to the subscription model. I can't help thinking it must just alienate users though because rather than giving them the carrot they're just beating them with the stick.

Marcia
01-14-2013, 11:04 AM
Interesting that it's just the pricing for upgrades going up - obviously trying to push everyone to the subscription model. I can't help thinking it must just alienate users though because rather than giving them the carrot they're just beating them with the stick.

Ouch. I read an article last year that said ADSK was transitioning to cloud-only/subscriptions... wish I had a link to share, but can't remember where I read it. Part of the reasoning appeared to be piracy, which probably describes a huge chunk of their installed base. Nothing like punishing your legit customers for revenue lost to piracy.

Yeah, this is a just another lovely example of "free market" capitalism driven by greedy investors. God forbid Newtek should ever go public.

jeric_synergy
01-14-2013, 12:14 PM
What kind of dividend does AD pay anyway?

Serling
01-14-2013, 12:15 PM
Interesting that it's just the pricing for upgrades going up - obviously trying to push everyone to the subscription model. I can't help thinking it must just alienate users though because rather than giving them the carrot they're just beating them with the stick.


A significant number of customers have already moved to Autodesk Subscription, and only a small percentage of those who do not have Autodesk Subscription purchase upgrades on an annual basis. For many customers, Autodesk Subscription may continue to be the most convenient and cost-effective way to keep their software up-to-date.

And for those whom it isn't, they will pay dearly.

AD doesn't even seem to see that all these users have a third option that doesn't involve Autodesk at all: abandoning AD altogether. I may have to learn Maya at school so I can use it at work when I get out, but I will never use Autodesk for my own projects: it's simply too expensive given that there are other apps that do most (if not all) it does for much less money and hassle.

Avid was a monopoly in the editing market in the 80s and 90s and it almost ruined them. They charged too much money for products people couldn't justify buying at their monopolistic price points anymore especially after Final Cut entered the scene. The TV station where I worked refused to invest in Avid's paid upgrades and ended up hanging onto severely obsolete computers and software much longer than it should have had Avid been more moderately priced. Avid saw the handwriting on the wall when Final Cut became all the craze and was forced into competitiveness by loss of market share to a lower priced competitor.

There is an opportunity here for NewTek to swoop in on Autodesk and grab market share now the way Apple did with Final Cut against Avid a dozen years ago or so, but the marketing department has to be up to the task. I hope it is.

Monopolies suck for consumers.

jeric_synergy
01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
There is an opportunity here for NewTek to swoop in on Autodesk and grab market share now the way Apple did with Final Cut against Avid a dozen years ago or so, but the marketing department has to be up to the task. I hope it is.
Not to mention when the new monopolist, FCP, stumbled badly (wtf were they thinking?), Adobe moved like lightning to capitalize on Apple's error.

Nothing makes me happier than to see smug Appleonians take it in the shorts.


Monopolies suck for consumers.
Progressives have been saying that since Teddy Roosevelt, but people don't listen.

cresshead
01-14-2013, 02:35 PM
yup in uk we have a 42% price rise on subs this year for 3dsmax, and only 70% of FULL rrp if you want back on the 3dsmax train in a year or 3...and it's 3 year maximum...after that you'll have to buy a whole new seat to get back on...

and all the time 3dsmax has NOT had any good releases ....2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013...all of these are slow, buggy releases...3dsmax 2014 needs to REALLY deliver this year...otherwise i'd be stupid to continue with subs at 42% more for software i don't use...i use 3dsmax 2009 as a rule as it's stable.

on the up side...frank delise is back on board as the product manager...hope that mean 2014 version is a decent one.

i have lightwave and modo to fall back on....a good opportunity for either/both to pick up some unhappy people who are locked into autocash currently.

that and blender....

jburford
01-14-2013, 02:37 PM
Ouch. I read an article last year that said ADSK was transitioning to cloud-only/subscriptions... wish I had a link to share, but can't remember where I read it. Part of the reasoning appeared to be piracy, which probably describes a huge chunk of their installed base. Nothing like punishing your legit customers for revenue lost to piracy.

Yeah, this is a just another lovely example of "free market" capitalism driven by greedy investors. God forbid Newtek should ever go public.


That with the only Cloud based subscriptions is simply not the truth! Not Autodesk, and not Adobe. . . .

Marcia
01-14-2013, 04:04 PM
That with the only Cloud based subscriptions is simply not the truth! Not Autodesk, and not Adobe. . . .

Maybe I misremembered or misinterpreted the article, but I thought that's what it said Autodesk planned to do. Since I'll never find the link, it's impossible to dispute what you said. You may be right.

No, I know Adobe is not going that way, but their subscriptions are reasonably priced -- $33/month for the first year if you are a registered user, then $50/month (same as everyone else pays, I think) thereafter. For that you get the entire creative suite and the ability to install it on two systems, and you don't have to buy a license upfront. Just subscribe.

Autodesk is forcing people to subscribe as part of the upgrade price. How long before you can only access their software from the cloud? Maybe never, but it seems possible. And the price is outrageous, imo. But that's from the perspective of my budget, not other people's or studios'.

sukardi
01-14-2013, 05:13 PM
How about this, Adobe taking over Lightwave - integrate with AE and take the fight to Autodesk. Just a thought...

probiner
01-14-2013, 05:14 PM
You guys can always question the dollar's value when prices rise. I mean the announcement of 40 billion dollar a month in securities injection until they feel it's ok, 4 months ago is an example, and that stuff has to burst out somewhere...
LW price did rise too and if you think about it, everything has lately, at least here.


Cheers

dsol
01-14-2013, 06:11 PM
How about this, Adobe taking over Lightwave - integrate with AE and take the fight to Autodesk. Just a thought...

What a horrible thought. Adobe aren't exactly that nice either. Like AD, they bought out their largest competitor (Macromedia), then recouped the enormous debt that incurred by abusing their near-monopoly status by hiking up the prices for all their products.
I like LW exactly like it is right now. Of course if Isotropix (makes of Clarisse) and the Lightwave 3D division joined forces, that might be a bit more interesting...

sukardi
01-14-2013, 06:26 PM
I don't particularly like Adobe either but I think they may be the only company at the moment in the position to leverage whatever Lightwave has. At least their pricing strategy (so far) is not as bad as AD and their releases are generally pretty stable...

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 06:29 PM
Progressives have been saying that since Teddy Roosevelt, but people don't listen.
Most people don't think about "tomorrow" and can only see how it will hurt or benefit them today.

Long term thinking is no longer a trait in most Americans - let alone the rest of the world, sad to say.

rwhunt99
01-14-2013, 07:38 PM
I believe Adobe is just as bad as Autodesk, all their applications are way over priced, the only thing I have to say is they work pretty well. If Adobe touched Newtek, we would see an automatic increase of at least a thousand dollars.

erikals
01-14-2013, 07:42 PM
AutoDe$k

warmiak
01-14-2013, 07:57 PM
Most people don't think about "tomorrow" and can only see how it will hurt or benefit them today.

Long term thinking is no longer a trait in most Americans - let alone the rest of the world, sad to say.

Most monopolies end up being such not despite but rather because of government actions.

jeric_synergy
01-14-2013, 07:58 PM
I gotta say, at $1/day for the entire Creative Cloud, I'm thinking Adobe's wares are NOT overpriced at all.

PS, AE, Pr, AI, a bunch of stuff I don't know how to use (but want to), plus web hosting space and a bunch of other goodies? for $1/day? C'mon.

BigHache
01-14-2013, 08:08 PM
I gotta say, at $1/day for the entire Creative Cloud, I'm thinking Adobe's wares are NOT overpriced at all.

PS, AE, Pr, AI, a bunch of stuff I don't know how to use (but want to), plus web hosting space and a bunch of other goodies? for $1/day? C'mon.

I actually got in on the Creative Cloud with the current product pricing offer. It is not what I wanted to do, but that price is hard to ignore. I just wish Adobe would quite breaking simple things.

erikals
01-14-2013, 08:19 PM
http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/01/autodesk-to-raise-cost-of-upgrades-for-its-software/

jeric_synergy
01-14-2013, 08:20 PM
$365 is what I would have expected to pay for ONE application's upgrade, so I Am Good With It. ;)

(Although they did break something today. All fixed now.)

geo_n
01-14-2013, 08:24 PM
...i use 3dsmax 2009 as a rule as it's stable.


Indeed we have stayed with this version, too, even though we have the newer versions.
The problem is there's no one to challenge AD and its BIG THREE. Userbase is too monopolized.
A lot of people, pipeline, workflow invested in the big three. So AD can pretty much dictate the price.

edit: I forgot motionbuilder which even lightwave relies on for decent mocap. Meh, its the BIG FOUR.

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 08:30 PM
Most monopolies end up being such not despite but rather because of government actions.

If you mean that by government ALLOWING these monopolies to exist -= ie. approving mergers, etc.... then yes, I agree.

Marcia
01-14-2013, 09:09 PM
How about this, Adobe taking over Lightwave - integrate with AE and take the fight to Autodesk. Just a thought...

...and then Disney buys the whole package.

jeric_synergy
01-14-2013, 09:12 PM
I think Adobe has its 3D strategy in place already.

warmiak
01-15-2013, 05:26 AM
I don't view Autodesk as a monopolist ... I mean, there are plenty of choices out there and if they ever manage to piss off enough of their clientele , there will be plenty of folks waiting around with their products ( Modo, Cinema 4d , Lightwave )

JohnMarchant
01-15-2013, 08:29 AM
I think if AD piss off allot of people many will go to Houdini, that is a seriously good package. That with LW is a great combination. Also dont forget Blender, which is coming on leaps and bounds, even if i still hate the interface.

Hail
01-15-2013, 09:57 AM
Well if you consider the state of the economy at the moment and the investors behind the ADSK that want to make profit each year, then it shouldn't be a surprise, it's just a typical business model that need to make profit in order to pay its employees and investors etc.

I cancelled my 3dsmax 2012 sub last year, it will be better for me to have modo/lw/zbrush/blender, but obviously there are people that need xsi/maya/max and need the subscription - they won't be happy, but then all the costs goes up each year, electricity/gas etc. so i don't see nothing here that would make me slag them off.

In times like this it is possible to increase prices and remain reasonable but unfortunately in this case AD isn't.
Slapping a 75% tag on an upgrade and forcing customers to buy full seats for skipping 3 upgrades just isn't the
way to go about it.
They should take a cue from NT or Lux.

jeric_synergy
01-15-2013, 12:40 PM
I think if AD piss off allot of people many will go to Houdini, that is a seriously good package. That with LW is a great combination. Also dont forget Blender, which is coming on leaps and bounds, even if i still hate the interface.
The thing about Blender is it's evolving REALLY fast, and the things that are arguably worst (the mouse) can be configured to be FAR more normal than the default. IMO, the left/right mouse button issue is the thing that pisses most users off, and that can be changed in the (hidden! Well, 'hard to find' at least) Preferences panel.

So, users who manage to find those tweaks are going to have a much more pleasant experience. And the 3D Cursor concept can be quite useful, once it's integrated into one's workflow.

souzou
01-15-2013, 01:45 PM
I think if AD piss off allot of people many will go to Houdini, that is a seriously good package.

Great as Houdini is, I would argue that SideFx also have a pretty harsh pricing policy. Houdini FX annual subscription ($2495) is over half the cost of the software, and if you don't buy the subscription you have to repurchase any new version from scratch.

Surrealist.
01-16-2013, 02:24 PM
The thing about it is you can hardly put a price on productivity. Software is used based on what it can allow you to get done in less time. That is something you have to evaluate on your own. And looking at the statistics I'd say it is pretty clear who is using what and why. Software pricing is not the bottleneck. It is time and productivity. Efficiency is key. Every software has bugs. Part of the deal unfortunately. But I don't think it is nearly as bad as some people claim.

jburford
01-17-2013, 03:11 AM
I really do not see a big issue here (as in the original post).

AD wants people to subscribe or pay higher upgrade costs (if I read correctly). I mean even Newtek changed their route, and those with the Core special upgrading, loosing the cheaper costs of upgrading, if they skip upgrades.

And something cool that AD is offering at the moment is @ http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/

In other words, you can simply first use the Trial version to learn the software and then

Try a 90-day project license of Maya 2013 software for SRP US$199 on your next animation project and let your ideas run free.


get a 90 Day Project License of Maya for $199, and do your project. . . . . Pretty good deal in my eyes!

dsol
01-17-2013, 03:28 AM
Ultimately the market will decide. If the prices are perceived by their users to be intolerably high, or poor value for money, then they'll either stop upgrading or start considering alternate 3D apps. Of course if AD bought out Maxon or Lux (or Lightwave!!), then I'd be worried!

hrgiger
01-17-2013, 08:09 AM
I don't think its the cost of AD's software although I think they are gouging for everything they can get. I think its the lack of good alternatives that offer the same kind of power and flexibility/extensibility that Maya, XSI and Max offer. Plus its hard to get away from that pack mentality. Well, all the pros use Maya so that's what I'm going to use, etc... I think you're going to have to see something truly revolutionary to change the tide of users that are drawn to Autodesk apps. It's too bad Pixologic didn't gear Zbrush out to be a full featured app from the beginning, that could have been software that could have changed everything instead of just in the digital sculpting/modeling side of things. I think the next big thing will be Fabric Engine once it really takes hold.. http://fabricengine.com/

Of course CORE with its idea of a fully nodal architecture, open SDK, scripting, etc... could have been one of those apps too.

Hail
01-17-2013, 10:02 AM
I think its the lack of good alternatives that offer the same kind of power and flexibility/extensibility that Maya, XSI and Max offer.

Well.. one software comes to mind, it is called houdini.

geo_n
01-17-2013, 10:22 AM
I think its the lack of good alternatives that offer the same kind of power and flexibility/extensibility that Maya, XSI and Max offer.

And manpower. The company I work for only hire max and maya artist. There's more choices and skill level.
And file compatibility. They try to avoid giving projects to subcons that use anything else but max and maya.

jeric_synergy
01-17-2013, 11:44 AM
I've yet to meet a producer in Seattle who's even HEARD of Lightwave. It's all C4D and Maya. Designer-based houses REALLY push for C4D.

Maybe I'm traveling in the wrong circles.

jeric_synergy
01-17-2013, 11:54 AM
I've yet to meet a producer in Seattle who's even HEARD of Lightwave. It's all C4D and Maya. Designer-based houses REALLY push for C4D.

Maybe I'm traveling in the wrong circles.

cresshead
01-17-2013, 06:26 PM
if 3dsmax 2014 doesn't KICK-***, i'm going to.

Celshader
01-18-2013, 09:03 PM
I've yet to meet a producer in Seattle who's even HEARD of Lightwave. It's all C4D and Maya. Designer-based houses REALLY push for C4D.

Maybe I'm traveling in the wrong circles.

Maybe you should mention LightWave to Seattle producers. Then they'll have actually heard of it. ;)

Surrealist.
01-19-2013, 12:28 AM
Actually generally speaking, the price of software has decreased quite a bit over the last 8 years. With the introduction of suite pricing at AD, it has been even more affordable to get into high-end software to the tune of probably about 25 percent of what it was 5-8 years ago.

cresshead
01-19-2013, 05:18 AM
Actually generally speaking, the price of software has decreased quite a bit over the last 8 years. With the introduction of suite pricing at AD, it has been even more affordable to get into high-end software to the tune of probably about 25 percent of what it was 5-8 years ago.

something to be aware of....autodesk suites..are locked to 1 pc...you cannot have 1 pc with motion builder, 1 pc with 3dsmax and 1 pc with mudbox....

it's all 3 software on 1 pc...1 person running not 3...so for teams...not that cheap!

dsol
01-19-2013, 06:37 AM
something to be aware of....autodesk suites..are locked to 1 pc...you cannot have 1 pc with motion builder, 1 pc with 3dsmax and 1 pc with mudbox....

it's all 3 software on 1 pc...1 person running not 3...so for teams...not that cheap!

That's generally true of most "Suites" - it's the same for adobe, though they allow you to install it on 2 computers. Software may have gotten cheaper, but I'm finding it harder to afford these days with the "race to the bottom" going on in media right now

Surrealist.
01-19-2013, 07:25 AM
By the way.

I was not talking about setting up a shop. That is another story. I was talking about what is available to individual users.

Setting up a shop with AD products and all of the particular licensing stuff is probably less than appropriate here. But suffice to say, what I got for the price I am happy. :-)

Titus
01-19-2013, 08:56 AM
Actually generally speaking, the price of software has decreased quite a bit over the last 8 years. With the introduction of suite pricing at AD, it has been even more affordable to get into high-end software to the tune of probably about 25 percent of what it was 5-8 years ago.

Back in 1997-1998, buying a SGI O2 system wth Maya 1 was as low as $19,000.

Surrealist.
01-19-2013, 09:18 AM
lol yeah... if we are going to fire up the way back machine...

why not?

http://www.siliconbunny.com/mirrors/www.tc.umn.edu/dols0011/sgi/index.html

About the time LightWave entered it was quite an interesting contrast in what was available. LightWave - even bundled with a Toaster - was truly revolutionary pricing for the time.

ah.... the memories....

But believe it or not, at this time the tables have completely flipped. Autodesk now owns all of that high end stuff and is offering it at an incredible savings. Really. Especially when you consider the bang for the buck.

And funny I just now thought of this. My thinking back then was pretty much the same as it is now. I looked around, I knew what was available for the price. LightWave was a no branier.

And now the same thing happened. I looked around, compared features per price, and AD came out way ahead. It was not hard to decide on a Suite given what was offered. Perhaps not as drastic as 1993 but it is a fairly wide gap just the same in today's market.

Marcia
01-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Back in 1997-1998, buying a SGI O2 system wth Maya 1 was as low as $19,000.

Yeah, but a lot of that was the cost of the workstation itself. Those old SGI/Indie/Sun setups were really expensive. We used to own a prepress house (mid-90s-2002), and I swear the Sun rip cost more than the whole imagesetter, which took up an entire room.

jeric_synergy
01-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Maybe you should mention LightWave to Seattle producers. Then they'll have actually heard of it. ;)
I'm hoping some BETTER animator will forge that path. --Which is practically all of them. ;) :cry:

Looking at the placement ads, the real action seems to be in UI/UX, fields, as you know, of deep and abiding interest to me. Unfortunately, I've never even heard of most of the software used in those fields.

TheDynamo
01-19-2013, 02:07 PM
A slight aside to the initial topic,

One thing I always liked about Adobe products is that the average small project will pay for an upgrade or two projects will pay for a full suite. Now that they have the creative cloud it makes it ridiculously affordable on a month-by-month basis. If you can start off as a student, it's even less expensive although 3D does have quite the initial learning curve before you can make some broadcast quality stuff.

Does anyone know if Autodesk still makes owning it's software easier for students or are they jacking up the prices for their educational software as well?

-Rob

disclaimer: I make 95% of my money using Adobe products, while I sometimes disagree with their policies I do know that there are many many faucets to a large company like them. When one has a huge suite of software applications and a demanding (often cantankerous) user base if there's a problem, I can imagine where development costs can skyrocket quickly.

Surrealist.
01-19-2013, 02:26 PM
Autodesk has a very strong educational program.

http://students.autodesk.com/

This is one area hey definitely have right.

Cryonic
01-20-2013, 02:39 PM
Back in 1997-1998, buying a SGI O2 system wth Maya 1 was as low as $19,000.

Which is about $30,000 - $40,000 today when you account for inflation in that time.

cresshead
01-20-2013, 05:25 PM
back in 1999 i was looking at maya...it was 7000 for the base module and around the same per extra module like artisan...making a full "maya" around 28,000
so....i bought 3dsmax 2.5 and character studio!

Kippa
01-22-2013, 03:08 AM
Autodesk has a very strong educational program.

http://students.autodesk.com/

This is one area hey definitely have right.

I'd love to see more educational videos for Lightwave on Lynda.com. There are like 18 courses for 3ds Max in Lynda.com but only 1 for lightwave on the site. Still as a newbie to Lightwave I am finding that 1 course very informative, I just wish there were more.

Surrealist.
01-22-2013, 06:35 AM
The thing to do is request it of them. They won't know there is a demand unless people ask.

There used to be more tutorials around. The best idea is to type a search into Youtube and/or Google. A lot of videos that have moved from the sites they were on or where the sites are gone now can be found o Youtube.

jburford
01-22-2013, 11:55 AM
http://www.liberty3d.com/

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?132813-Tanadrine-Studios-Tutorial-Series-IKBooster-Fix-Command-Explained&highlight=Training

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?132813-Tanadrine-Studios-Tutorial-Series-IKBooster-Fix-Command-Explained&highlight=Training

as the saying goes, look and you shall see.

just search Training here by this Forum and by Yahoo, Google and Co. . . still tons of training around.

Good Luck!