PDA

View Full Version : What's the deal with the poor undo and reset capabilities?



Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 10:15 AM
I think I may have set something wrong or maybe it's because I've only used Lightwave for only two weeks and I'm missing something, but what's the deal with the lack of undos and resets in lots of places? For example, the surface editor. Whatever parameter you change, if you press CTRL+Z, it says there are no actions to undo, unless you had moved an object or a light, in which case it undos that, but nothing in the surface editor. Even worse, if you apply a preset, which modifies several parameters and adds textures, there's also no undo to that, so if you don't like how the preset looks on the model, you would have to remove all the textures it applied, and whatever other changes it made, guessing what they were.

There's also no reset button that I can see, which at least would make up a little bit for the lack of undo. But if I change any parameter and I don't like the result, there's no undo and no reset, not for individual parameters or for the whole surface.

Did I miss something, or is this the way it is in Lightwave?

RebelHill
01-12-2013, 10:25 AM
thats how it is... welcome to the near non existant undo system.

OnlineRender
01-12-2013, 10:28 AM
110359,

Ryan Roye
01-12-2013, 10:35 AM
You'll get no argument that the undo system needs... a redo.

*Bah dum ba DDDsssshhh!!!*

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 10:47 AM
Wow. This makes me think Lightwave is probably not the right program for me after all. I mean, I even hate programs when they only have undos but no visual history, but not having undos for lots of things that you do is just absurd in 2013.

Ryan Roye
01-12-2013, 11:00 AM
Wow. This makes me think Lightwave is probably not the right program for me after all. I mean, I even hate programs when they only have undos but no visual history, but not having undos for lots of things that you do is just absurd in 2013.

There's plenty of things that Lightwave does way better than other 3d programs... you will find that every program has their weaknesses/strengths. The undo system is one of Lightwave's weaknesses. The most important thing is that you have a program that feels right for you.

In a cost vs benefit analysis... Lightwave is really, really hard to beat; IMO only topped by Blender (which is free). I use blender as well for supplementary functions such as compositing or fluid sims.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 11:22 AM
There's plenty of things that Lightwave does way better than other 3d programs... you will find that every program has their weaknesses/strengths. The undo system is one of Lightwave's weaknesses. The most important thing is that you have a program that feels right for you.

Right, but see, I have ADD and really bad short term memory. If I change a parameter, sometimes I won't even remember what the number was before I changed it, in part because I'm used to every other software having normal undo. So to use Lightwave I would have to change the way I do things and remember the number before I change it, in case I want to return to it. But regardless of that, even if you remember all the numbers you changed, not only on the surface editor but also on the texture editor (which I would not for sure), there are many times when you just need to go back several steps and resume from a certain point, and Lightwave doesn't allow for such a simple thing, which I don't know about 3D programs, but at least in most other programs you have been able to do since 20 years ago.

The surface editor is one of the most important parts of the program, because no matter how many points, edges and polygons an object has, if you don't dress it pretty nobody will care if it's the most sophisticated design in the world. And if you can't undo or even reset properly in the surface editor then this program is broken, even if it excels in other areas.

digitaldoc
01-12-2013, 11:34 AM
Until an object is saved, either in Layout or Modeler, it can always be reloaded. Surfaces are saved with the object.

I frequently save incremental objects when I significantly change surfaces. Another way is to save the surface in the surface editor before changing it.

I quite like the traditional surface editor as it is easy to check or uncheck layers in each of the parameters without removing them and seeing the results in VPR (or in the old days, FPrime).

shrox
01-12-2013, 11:39 AM
Right, but see, I have ADD and really bad short term memory. If I change a parameter, sometimes I won't even remember what the number was before I changed it, in part because I'm used to every other software having normal undo...

Well, that's a problem. Try a different career.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 11:52 AM
Well, that's a problem. Try a different career.

Really? So I can't do 3D design because my memory is not great? How about using 3D software that has at least a barely decent Undo system? Or are all the other programs this bad when it comes to undos?

m.d.
01-12-2013, 12:05 PM
we all support you here in this regard...undo in LW is very poor...

the question you need to answer for yourself is is this really gonna inhibit your workflow to the point where you have to start looking at other packages...

an undo system will only help you so much with resseting values...because unless that was the last thing you did, you will undo a lot of other things in the process

in lightwave incremental saving is the recommended workflow to help with these issues

bobakabob
01-12-2013, 12:07 PM
Until an object is saved, either in Layout or Modeler, it can always be reloaded. Surfaces are saved with the object.

I frequently save incremental objects when I significantly change surfaces. Another way is to save the surface in the surface editor before changing it.

I quite like the traditional surface editor as it is easy to check or uncheck layers in each of the parameters without removing them and seeing the results in VPR (or in the old days, FPrime).

I've never found this issue too much of a drawback in Lightwave, which is known for its fast workflow. As long as you make incremental saves as you go, the limitations with LW undo shouldn't really be a problem. Undo does allow you to backtrack basic animation keys, which is very useful of course. Light settings you can continually tweak as you get instant feedback in VPR. And of course these can be saved. As digitaldoc states you can incrementally save scenes and/or objects + surfaces. 'Save All' does both at same time. The basic Replace function is also immensely useful for swapping out different versions of models in a scene.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 12:37 PM
the question you need to answer for yourself is is this really gonna inhibit your workflow to the point where you have to start looking at other packages...

Well, I'm not a user of Lightwave yet, I was testing it since two weeks ago and since the trial is two months long I was going to take that time to decide whether or not to buy it. I'm sure it would be different if I had spent the $1,500, but so far I just lost $70 on a training curse at 3DGarage. All the times I use Lightwave I become really frustrated at trying different textures and changing parameters and if I don't like the result having to go back manually to the point I was before, and many times I don't really remember what number was a certain parameter I changed 5 minutes ago.

So I'll probably try Modo 601 and if it has the same problem or I don't like it for whatever reason, I'll try something else, even if I have to save some extra cash to buy it.

hazmat777
01-12-2013, 01:04 PM
Didn't William have something in the 1001 Tips and Tricks book about creating a hidden object that you would then copy and paste surface attributes to, kinda of like a complex painters palette? Then if you didn't like your experiment, you could just copy back from your hidden object without having to re-load the whole object. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

I imagine you could (if I'm remembering right) have multiple hidden objects with different surfaces on them and use the Scene Editor to quickly switch between different looks for a client with VPR???

Sorry if I wasted anyone's time with the post if this is old news, it's been quite awhile since I've used LW.

Marcia
01-12-2013, 01:32 PM
Well, I'm not a user of Lightwave yet, I was testing it since two weeks ago and since the trial is two months long I was going to take that time to decide whether or not to buy it. I'm sure it would be different if I had spent the $1,500, but so far I just lost $70 on a training curse at 3DGarage. All the times I use Lightwave I become really frustrated at trying different textures and changing parameters and if I don't like the result having to go back manually to the point I was before, and many times I don't really remember what number was a certain parameter I changed 5 minutes ago.

So I'll probably try Modo 601 and if it has the same problem or I don't like it for whatever reason, I'll try something else, even if I have to save some extra cash to buy it.

It's never a bad idea to test drive different software to find what suits you best. Having said that, if ADD interferes with your ability to work in LightWave, you're likely to find areas where it interferes with working in other 3d programs, as well. This is where you have to adapt your working habits to fit your memory problems (which I share), because you won't find a decent app that doesn't challenge your challenges in some way or another.

What helps (reiterating a few things others have said):


Save multiple iterations of your project, especially after completing something complex or before trying something experimental. You can also set up LightWave to save autosave iterations. If you screw up badly, and you've already saved the model, you can simply open the earlier version, do another save-as, and keep going.
Remember you can revert/reload a model if you haven't saved changes yet.
Create and store user presets of your textures, so you can simply reapply them without having to remember and rekey parameters.
My high-tech contribution to this list: Keep a notebook and pen by your computer to jot things down as you work.

LW has its shortcomings, no doubt, but I've never found memory problems (other than too little RAM) to be a barrier to learning and working in the software.

RebelHill
01-12-2013, 02:08 PM
Well... not wanting to put a downer on your efforts... but if you've found surfacing a pain in LW... just you wait till you see Modo's shader tree (with or without undo)... and as for others... max, maya, SI... if you cant pilot LW, you've not a snaowball's chance in hell Im afraid.

And not to sound like more of a downer... but, as others have said... if the ADHD and memory thing is that much of a problem for you... you may WELL find that higher end 3D as it stands is beyond your grasp. You should look into poser, or daz.

digitaldoc
01-12-2013, 02:30 PM
Sebasvideo

I wish you the best with any software that you choose. Money is probably not wasted learning any new program as versatility comes in handy in this industry.

Best wishes.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 02:32 PM
It's never a bad idea to test drive different software to find what suits you best. Having said that, if ADD interferes with your ability to work in LightWave, you're likely to find areas where it interferes with working in other 3d programs, as well. This is where you have to adapt your working habits to fit your memory problems (which I share), because you won't find a decent app that doesn't challenge your challenges in some way or another.

What helps (reiterating a few things others have said):


Save multiple iterations of your project, especially after completing something complex or before trying something experimental. You can also set up LightWave to save autosave iterations. If you screw up badly, and you've already saved the model, you can simply open the earlier version, do another save-as, and keep going.
Remember you can revert/reload a model if you haven't saved changes yet.
Create and store user presets of your textures, so you can simply reapply them without having to remember and rekey parameters.
My high-tech contribution to this list: Keep a notebook and pen by your computer to jot things down as you work.

LW has its shortcomings, no doubt, but I've never found memory problems (other than too little RAM) to be a barrier to learning and working in the software.

Well, I didn't mean that I have a terrible ADD that doesn't allow me to concentrate on anything. I work for endless hours in After Effects, Premiere and Photoshop just fine and well focused. But perhaps because of fifteen years of using software that has a sequential undo for almost everything you do, my brain got used to that, and I don't always check what number was in specular before I changed it. Now, in After Effects I changed whatever I want, and if I don't like it, I press CTRL Z and that's it, as many times as I need, up to 99.

Incremental saves is a barely decent workaround, in fact I'm a save nazi because when I don't save for 20 minutes programs crash on me, so I usually save more often than most people. But unless you do a Shift+S for every single parameter that you change in the surface editor, and then if you want to undo, start loading up projects until you find the one you want, it's not a viable option. Neither is to keep a notepad next to the computer.

My point is, if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a 3D modeling and animation package to learn it from top to bottom, not only it has to be recognized in the industry, it also has to be enjoyable for me and not frustrating. If I was frustrated with Blender, I can say at least it's free, but a program that I would have to pay $1500 to be frustrated with, doesn't seem like a good option.

OnlineRender
01-12-2013, 02:52 PM
if you are looking for a 3D app that has unlimited undo I would suggest Zbrush although no animation ... however I don't think the ability of undo in lw is the real the obstacle/learning curve regarding surfacing , Lightwave has the easiest surface / material I have ever used .. and if you cant undo you generally just mess around until you get the look...

50one
01-12-2013, 02:54 PM
I've got a sticker on my bumper which says "undo is for girls" .

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 03:58 PM
I've got a sticker on my bumper which says "undo is for girls" .

Good for you.

BokadCastle
01-12-2013, 04:10 PM
Even worse, if you apply a preset, which modifies several parameters and adds textures, there's also no undo to that,
Did I miss something, or is this the way it is in Lightwave?

Yes, you missed the "Save" and "Load" buttons to both Surface Editor and Hypervoxels - very easy to use. Recommended.

Marcia
01-12-2013, 04:28 PM
It sounds like you've already talked yourself out of LightWave. I understand you have a particular working style in 2d that you'd like to match in a 3d program, but you seem to be narrowly focused on relatively minor issues while ignoring more substantial factors that weigh in LightWave's favor. Of course, you're arguing to group of mostly die-hard users who could have abandoned the program long ago but haven't. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?

And I never said you couldn't concentrate on anything; I was simply addressing a concern you raised several times in this thread. I've found it to be a non-issue, but YMMV.

Incidentally, LightWave IS recognized in "the industry" (which industry?), and I doubt anyone here is living under a bridge because they prefer working in LW over other products, or because they integrate LW into their pipeline(s).

Good luck with your decision.

50one
01-12-2013, 04:57 PM
I've got another good one " god will forgive your mistakes, Lightwave won't" how's that sounds?:)

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 05:22 PM
Of course, you're arguing to group of mostly die-hard users who could have abandoned the program long ago but haven't. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?

That's a good point, but not in the way you think. Talking to a group of die-hard users will never give you an objective perspective on anything, 3D program or else. It's like trying to convince Mac fan boys that the current line of Mac Pros suck big time compared to PC alternatives. You can tell them that they can have a much better and faster PC for a lot less money, have way more choices on the components that go inside, and that the current Mac Pro line is, as a review put it, "grossly outdated hardware". But those die hard Mac fans are still going to spend $4000 or more in a machine that doesn't deserve it by far, and then another $2,000 in a Quadro card when they realize that the outdated Radeons that come with them are useless for many video applications.

Now, I didn't give this example to say that Lightwave is the same, because Lightwave doesn't suck and it's a very good program with the exception of the undo, but it's hard to get an objective view in this forum about it. Granted, I wasn't looking for it, I was simply trying to find out if this flawed undo system Lightwave has is because it's just like that, or if I had missed a tick mark somewhere in the preferences.

shrox
01-12-2013, 05:46 PM
Maybe it's just the way people speak now days. I try to frame my queries in a way that isn't easily taken as abrasive or derogatory to the subject I am asking about.

Sometimes I copy and past entries from the entry field I am working in to notepad, them I can reference it later.

Rayek
01-12-2013, 05:54 PM
If you are looking for a good alternative that is affordable and has near perfect undo, as well as an interface that arguably is the simplest to learn of all 3d apps, try Cinema4D (Broadcast edition). Since you mentioned you use After Effects a lot as well: C4D has excellent Afx integration (Blender has great Afx integration as well). And C4D MoGraph is absolutely "the bomb" for procedural video effects work - sort of an industry standard right now. C4d also comes with a very capable 3d painting module. Then combine this with Blender (full 3d motion and object tracking, sculpting, Cycles...), and you will have all the tools you would probably need in a long time - if not for ever. Well, maybe a $99 license of 3d Coat to top it off? ;-)

Lightwave may not be your up of tea - if the lack of a proper undo system is a deal breaker, that is.

Btw, I use all four in my daily work. Pick whatever works best for you - become a software agnostic, try all the options out there.

Myself, I dislike Modo and zBrush - never could get along with those two. Maya and Max irked me as well (other reasons ;-) But again: your experience will be a different one from mine.

What also helps is figuring out what direction/focus you intend to go for. But all packages have their relative strengths and weaknesses.


That's a good point, but not in the way you think. Talking to a group of die-hard users will never give you an objective perspective on anything, 3D program or else. It's like trying to convince Mac fan boys that the current line of Mac Pros suck big time compared to PC alternatives. You can tell them that they can have a much better and faster PC for a lot less money, have way more choices on the components that go inside, and that the current Mac Pro line is, as a review put it, "grossly outdated hardware". But those die hard Mac fans are still going to spend $4000 or more in a machine that doesn't deserve it by far, and then another $2,000 in a Quadro card when they realize that the outdated Radeons that come with them are useless for many video applications.

Now, I didn't give this example to say that Lightwave is the same, because Lightwave doesn't suck and it's a very good program with the exception of the undo, but it's hard to get an objective view in this forum about it. Granted, I wasn't looking for it, I was simply trying to find out if this flawed undo system Lightwave has is because it's just like that, or if I had missed a tick mark somewhere in the preferences.

djlithium
01-12-2013, 06:20 PM
That's a good point, but not in the way you think. Talking to a group of die-hard users will never give you an objective perspective on anything, 3D program or else. It's like trying to convince Mac fan boys that the current line of Mac Pros suck big time compared to PC alternatives. You can tell them that they can have a much better and faster PC for a lot less money, have way more choices on the components that go inside, and that the current Mac Pro line is, as a review put it, "grossly outdated hardware". But those die hard Mac fans are still going to spend $4000 or more in a machine that doesn't deserve it by far, and then another $2,000 in a Quadro card when they realize that the outdated Radeons that come with them are useless for many video applications.

Now, I didn't give this example to say that Lightwave is the same, because Lightwave doesn't suck and it's a very good program with the exception of the undo, but it's hard to get an objective view in this forum about it. Granted, I wasn't looking for it, I was simply trying to find out if this flawed undo system Lightwave has is because it's just like that, or if I had missed a tick mark somewhere in the preferences.

Sebas, if I may chime in here.

I've been using lightwave for many many years. Since I was in my mid teens and I was on a variety of meds (guess where the DJ Lithium name comes from??) for ADHD, ADD, Bipolar this, manic depressive that. So I understand on a personal level what it is like and where you are coming from. With this said, working in LightWave and DJing (the obsession of getting it perfect if you know what im talking about) taught me the patience I lacked when I was younger. Thank goodness too because I certainly needed it in my life. So these two things actually in effect replaced the meds (that and turning 18 and saying **** off to my mom and doctors) and I built a half decent career on these two things that didn't have "undo". Not to get sentimental or religious or anything, but here is an example. I play vinyl. No CDs, no laptops, no gadgets. Just vinyl records and mix completely by ear. I don't need "mix in key software" or BPM counters. I don't use FX to cover up mixing mistake like so many other DJs. I can ride mixes for several minutes and you woudl never tell I'm actually mixing the two tracks are in perfect alignment and sound right together, but I got the skill to be able to do that from practice and understanding something. If it was easy - everyone would be doing it. It's an imperfect and unforgiving medium in the world of digital twits pressing play and I can go toe to toe with just about any major DJ out there in the world using vinyl while they have all the doodads and gizmos you can shake a stick at and mix circles around them (if they are even mixing at all like many of the top jocks like David Guetta who fake it). The same goes for LightWave artists. Yes, its not perfect, correct it doesn't have an undo system like many people would expect - however that is oddly part of what makes many LightWave artists kick asz and run circles around many many artists who have 5000 dollar + applications from "Autoplex" in front of them on 10K dollar workstations.

We learn that undo is in a lot of ways a trap and instead we focus on understanding what the program is doing and what it wants you to do and what you can do with it and this gives us in turn the knowledge (through practice and understanding) that makes things possible for us things that can never be realized by other artists working in other applications at the speed of which we can. This is possible for one main reason. It's because we have left the idea at the side of the road that LightWave is like working in any other application. When you get over that part of it, and have a little bit of help and guidance, I believe you will get to that moment "oh wow... why would I even bother with another app for 3D?" - and its true with several people who I have worked with over the years and students that I have trained who are exposed to "the way" to approach LightWave, that veterans like myself and others have learned on our own. You are incredible fortunate to be getting into LightWave now.

Many years ago when I started there was nothing for me to access for information outside of the manuals for knowledge. Today you have 20 years of history out there for training materials, tried and true battle tested techniques that are all accessible and still applicable even today because the software has remained consistent largely in its approach to making 3D and shots and VFX, while also constantly improving and introducing new amazing stuff. Granted there are some oldschoolers out there who have done some amazing work over the years who have been unwilling to share those techniques (I won't name names, I don't want to start a flame war) but they have done so at their own peril. There are MANY more that are out there like Rebel Hill, SplineGod (who unfortunately has passed away recently), Adam Gibson, Kevin Phillips, Oliver Hotz, myself and countless others who will and have dedicated a large part of their time and lives to sharing this information because we are grateful for being able to work in LightWave because for us and how we approach things when it comes to problem solving in 3D to get work done - its the best tool for us to use and usually the tool that gets it done when others fail (*for a huge number of reasons which change often).

So in the end, cheer up - focus and if you need help, we are all here. Your undo button is the LightWave community and its knowledge base. Eventually when you get the hang of it you won't be pressing a keyboard short cut thinking you need to undo that last action - because you won't have done something that feels like a mistake or error. You will get what you need something to do quickly through knowledge and practice. When you get to that point - nothing will stand in your way.

BTW, if you need training... www.liberty3d.com

Marcia
01-12-2013, 06:39 PM
You're unlikely to get a completely objective opinion about which software to buy on any developer's user forum; nevertheless, you came here to ask about a perceived problem with the LightWave trial version and people responded to your inquiry. I believe you've been given reasonably balanced input in this thread: people acknowledged your observation about the inability to undo surfacing and certain other features was correct. Some people agreed with you; others suggested workarounds and explained they didn't experience workflow problems relative to the complaint you raised. You also introduced personal mitigating factors (memory issues) that you believed would be an obstacle to working in LightWave. When given methods for dealing with the "problem," you became defensive and gave counter-examples undermining your earlier argument.

You have also introduced logic falacies into this thread, most recently in your analogy comparing Mac users with LightWave users. You introduced selective, and substantially unsupportable arguments against the Mac (my work station shipped with NVidia onboard, and the price difference was no greater than the same upgrade on a PC), and selectively ignored important positive factors such as having a more secure operating system. This is relevant only to the extent that it illustrates your willingness to support a rigid set of beliefs with selective evidence.

It's clear that you've already reached certain conclusions and, erroneous as they may be, your mind is now closed to further information. Continuing to argue with you would be like trying to convince a member of the Tea Party that his/her perspective is largely based on ignorance.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 07:07 PM
You're unlikely to get a completely objective opinion about which software to buy on any developer's user forum; nevertheless, you came here to ask about a perceived problem with the LightWave trial version and people responded to your inquiry. I believe you've been given reasonably balanced input in this thread: people acknowledged your observation about the inability to undo surfacing and certain other features was correct. Some people agreed with you; others suggested workarounds and explained they didn't experience workflow problems relative to the complaint you raised. You also introduced personal mitigating factors (memory issues) that you believed would be an obstacle to working in LightWave. When given methods for dealing with the "problem," you became defensive and gave counter-examples undermining your earlier argument (apparently in the service of ego).

You have also introduced logic falacies into this thread, most recently in your analogy comparing Mac users with LightWave users. You introduced selective, and substantially unsupportable arguments against the Mac (my work station shipped with NVidia onboard, and the price difference was no greater than the same upgrade on a PC), and selectively ignored important positive factors such as having a more secure operating system. This is relevant only to the extent that it illustrates your willingness to support a rigid set of beliefs with selective evidence.

It's clear that you've already reached certain conclusions and, erroneous as they may be, your mind is now closed to further information. Continuing to argue with you would be like trying to convince a member of the Tea Party that his/her perspective is largely based on ignorance.

Your post is highly insulting and aggravating, and totally uncalled for. First and foremost, I find it really insulting to compare me to a member of the Tea Party, which anyone who knows me and saw the 7 Obama stickers I had in my car until the election and my Facebook wall would find hilarious. You use that analogy to call me ignorant, so how about this for ignorance.

While I may have a very short experience with Lightwave, I've had my share of Mac towers, a G3, G4 and G5, until I sold the last one in 2007 and with that money I assembled a hell of a PC that was way faster, for less than half what I would have paid for the same kind of processing power in a Mac tower back then. Over the years I assembled a few more PCs for myself and for friends, all of them still in great shape. If your workstation shipped with an Nvidia card, you must've purchased it from a dealer, because whenever I checked the Apple Store online the only choices are outdated Radeon cards. And if you did, like I said in my post, you probably paid a ton of money to upgrade to an expensive Quadro card, because Macs don't take most standard Nvidia cards without a driver hack. Besides, all three Macs I had were not without their share of problems. I'll give you that they are most stable than your typical piece of junk Dell and low end HPs, but the fastest and most stable machines I've ever had are the ones I assembled myself from high quality components purchased separately. Not to mention that a simple Google search for the words Mac Pro outdated will show you lots of reviews and forums posts of people that like me think the current lines of Mac Pros are a ripoff because of how expensive they are for hardware that is over two years old.

But hey, I was just having a simple conversation about the undo system in Lightwave, simple as that. I don't care if you felt offended because I know I didn't type anything that would offend you, so how about you take all that acid reflux elsewhere?

hrgiger
01-12-2013, 07:08 PM
I find it completely silly that several people here are downplaying the importance or even necessity of a proper undo system in LightWave. My only guess as to why that must be, is that they are so used to the way it is in LightWave, that they've refused to accept that maybe they don't think that there could be a much better way out there for them. Almost like a battered wife really.

Don't get me wrong, I really like LightWave, I've been using it for a long time, but I haven't become so ingrained as to accept all of its faults as "just the way it is". It's almost comical how long people have been asking for a proper undo system in LightWave with little to no response from Newtek on its position on the matter or how or when they might address the matter....

Sebasvideo, if you haven't been around the community for a long time... a few years ago, under different management, NT decided they were going to rewrite LightWave from scratch and create a unified application. Part of this application (called CORE which has become a dirty word around here) was to have a modifier stack which would have allowed for a non-destructive way of working within LightWave. Jump ahead a bit, CORE was cancelled, new 3D managment, and work continued on developing LightWave as we know it. What we were told is that the destination is still the same, but that development would be through the restructuring of current LightWave architecture. When they say the destination is still the same, it tends to imply that eventually LightWave will be a unified application with all the benefits that CORE was (in theory-it never got that far) supposed to bring. Some of those benefits included unified environment, python (which we have now) & other scripting languages, modifier stack, universal nodal architecture allowing you to build complex systems through simple node components, everything animatable including modeling operations.... So whether that suggests that LightWave will ever have a modifier stack to allow for a non-destructive workflow, only time will tell. But you have to decide based on what we have now which is a fairly limited and weak undo system. If that's truly important to you, you may not want to consider LightWave at this time.

Best of luck to you friend.

djlithium
01-12-2013, 07:35 PM
HRGiger, look, CORE was a disaster from the start because it had nothing to do with LightWave at all from a users point of view. I'm not going to get into the core debate here with you because frankly you don't know all the details about what started it (really bad reasons) and eventually killed it (really really really good ones, the biggest one being that LightWave would have died all together be it as core or what it was then completely - it would have ceased to exist as a purchasable product).
Now back to reality.

Sebas, don't let anyone discourage you from learning lightwave. I don't know whats going on right now on the forums but it seems like all the sourpuss'es are out for blood at the moment. Just ignore them. If you need help with something, please hit my up on skype. You can find me at "djlithium"

Cheers.

OnlineRender
01-12-2013, 07:38 PM
you have 60 days (roughly) best advice I can give is mess around with it , render out your first animation or model and see how it goes ....after the 60 days you are not felling the love for the app try something else ...


download this and play about

110364

110364

OnlineRender
01-12-2013, 07:48 PM
110367or this

110368

made by http://www.plushpixel.com/

hrgiger
01-12-2013, 07:55 PM
HRGiger, look, CORE was a disaster from the start because it had nothing to do with LightWave at all from a users point of view. I'm not going to get into the core debate here with you because frankly you don't know all the details about what started it (really bad reasons) and eventually killed it (really really really good ones, the biggest one being that LightWave would have died all together be it as core or what it was then completely - it would have ceased to exist as a purchasable product).
Now back to reality.

Sebas, don't let anyone discourage you from learning lightwave. I don't know whats going on right now on the forums but it seems like all the sourpuss'es are out for blood at the moment. Just ignore them. If you need help with something, please hit my up on skype. You can find me at "djlithium"

Cheers.

Kat, I wouldn't argue with you at all that CORE was a disaster and that it was mismanaged and handled badly from the start, middle, and certainly the end. However, I still agree with the overall idea of it. LightWave needs to be unified and not bridged by a feeble hub connection, LightWave needs better handling of large numbers of polygons (which CORE even in its unusable state stil did a better job then LightWave now. But don't believe me, ask Lewis), and having an underlying unified nodal architecture is certainly a good step towards modernizing LightWave. Of course, there's more to it but that would certainly be a good start.

Out for blood? That's quite a dramatization don't you think? Sebasvideo is looking for input from people who have used LightWave as to their thoughts on the undo situation. I suppose anyone who isn't just hunky dory with having a limited undo sytem is just a big old sourpuss to you? I don't think he's looking for someone to downplay something that might be a dealbreaker for him just so that we can convince him that LightWave is just the best software on the planet. He's looking for honest opinions so that he can make up his own mind. So let me have my opinion without you having to call everyone with a dissenting opinion from yours a sourpuss. Get over yourself, really.

Marcia
01-12-2013, 08:39 PM
I don't care if you felt offended because I know I didn't type anything that would offend you, so how about you take all that acid reflux elsewhere?

Step back. I tried being nice until you became defensive, arrogant, abrasive and condescending. If you think what I wrote was offensive, you should have read what I erased.

FYI, you're in no position to demand anything, and the more vitriol you spew the less likely I am to go away. I will try to chill in deference to other people (not to mention the forum rules), but don't expect nastiness to go unanswered.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 08:43 PM
Step back. I tried being nice until you became defensive, arrogant, abrasive and condescending. If you think what I wrote was offensive, you should have read what I erased.

FYI, you're in no position to demand anything, and the more vitriol you spew the less likely I am to go away. I will try to chill in deference to other people (not to mention the forum rules), but don't expect nastiness to go unanswered.

My response to you is exactly what you just wrote, word by word. Thanks for saving me time.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 08:56 PM
you have 60 days (roughly) best advice I can give is mess around with it , render out your first animation or model and see how it goes ....after the 60 days you are not felling the love for the app try something else ...

Oh, sure I'll keep messing with it for a while, I do like the program except for the undo system and I downloaded lots of great free models from many websites. Now, perhaps this is for another thread, but I was wondering if there is a way to export a model as an .obj and then export each of the surfaces as separate graphic files? I'm talking about all the layers that make up the look of a surface, whether it's made of nodes or procedural textures. The reason I'm asking is that I would like to try to composite a model of a Galactica Viper MKII I downloaded into real footage, and while Lightwave has all the bells and whistles for the most realistic look, if I do the same thing in After Effects with Element 3D it would take substantially less time to render, because it uses Open GL (or CUDA, I can't remember which) instead of Raytracing. Obviously this means a lot of realism is lost, but I would like to see how close can I get in Element 3D to what I see in Layout when in VPR mode.

The reason I would need the surfaces as rendered files is that in Element 3D you can load an object but it loads naked, and you have to apply all the textures separately, which is a pain, but it renders so much faster that you can still save time.

jeric_synergy
01-12-2013, 09:23 PM
Kinda sideways, but:
One feature I REALLY miss was the 5/6 frame preview samples-- for the Surface Editor only, it was like having a 5 step undo.

Removing THAT was really a misstep IMO.

++
But the douchiness of the OP will guarantee that's the last I'll bother reading his stuff.

Sebasvideo
01-12-2013, 09:28 PM
But the douchiness of the OP will guarantee that's the last I'll bother reading his stuff.

Right back at ya.

shrox
01-12-2013, 09:39 PM
Sebasvideo, you can do great things with most any 3D program. Lightwave is easy to learn, has it's limitations, and is a great value for the cost. For making video and movie rendering, it's great. Exporting for gaming and real time animation can be so-so..

Caveboy
01-12-2013, 10:01 PM
Just a quick tip on surfaces. You can always double click on the surface sample and it will copy the settings to the surface preset window. Its fast and easy!

From a Tea Party Lightwaver! (fyi)

:)

DigitalSorcery8
01-12-2013, 10:28 PM
Kat, I wouldn't argue with you at all that CORE was a disaster and that it was mismanaged and handled badly from the start, middle, and certainly the end. However, I still agree with the overall idea of it. LightWave needs to be unified and not bridged by a feeble hub connection, LightWave needs better handling of large numbers of polygons (which CORE even in its unusable state stil did a better job then LightWave now. But don't believe me, ask Lewis), and having an underlying unified nodal architecture is certainly a good step towards modernizing LightWave. Of course, there's more to it but that would certainly be a good start.

Out for blood? That's quite a dramatization don't you think? Sebasvideo is looking for input from people who have used LightWave as to their thoughts on the undo situation. I suppose anyone who isn't just hunky dory with having a limited undo sytem is just a big old sourpuss to you? I don't think he's looking for someone to downplay something that might be a dealbreaker for him just so that we can convince him that LightWave is just the best software on the planet. He's looking for honest opinions so that he can make up his own mind. So let me have my opinion without you having to call everyone with a dissenting opinion from yours a sourpuss. Get over yourself, really.

+1

DigitalSorcery8
01-12-2013, 11:49 PM
Right back at ya.
People here have commiserated with you as well as agreeing and suggesting workarounds.

Many people here have been here for years and have heard the same things over and over again. I daresay MOST people here would agree with you that Lightwave needs a FAR better undo system. Hopefully some day soon we will see it. But I don't think that that's a big problem in your situation. If you can learn all of the other programs you have learned, Lightwave will not be insurmountable to learn. It will simply mean that you will have to learn different methods - IF you want to learn Lightwave.

You have been here less than one month and you are showing quite a bit of anger and confrontation. While these Newtek forums can often be contentious, they are an incredible wealth spring of help and knowledge - people here often go out of their way to help one another. But... displaying your anger as you have been doing - especially from a newbie using the program - you are not doing yourself any favors. When you ask questions in the future, people who may know exactly how to solve your problem may well ignore you because of how you have presented yourself in this thread.

An apology to everyone here would go a LONG way to mending the fences you have torn - regardless as to whether or not the posters were trying to berate you. Breathe.... and then post. :)

Just a word of advice.

Snosrap
01-13-2013, 12:04 AM
The undo system is satisfactory in Modeler. Layout is where it suffers the most. I do think "resets" in some of the panels would be of some help and fairly easy for NT to implement until they can get the underlying structure in place to do a proper undo system.

sami
01-13-2013, 12:25 AM
The undo system is satisfactory in Modeler. Layout is where it suffers the most. I do think "resets" in some of the panels would be of some help and fairly easy for NT to implement until they can get the underlying structure in place to do a proper undo system.

This. To the point and true. Layout's undo is totally anemic and needs to be high up on the feature requests for v12.

Serling
01-13-2013, 01:12 AM
I have ADD and really bad short term memory.

I'd say the first "fix" you need is not to LightWave's undo feature, but to your ADD. There are meds that will fix it and allow you to function normally, regardless of the software you use.

Yes, LW's undo feature fairly sucks, but your ADD is a separate issue that needs to be addressed whether NewTek fixes undo or not.

geo_n
01-13-2013, 01:21 AM
At this point since you have NOT invested years on lightwave, it might be better to try out all software that is financially feasable.

The lack of undo, I have a bunch of request in this forum as well especially the surface editor. Lack of undo for selections/unselectsions, lack of undo when removing items in layout, etc. All these issues will NEVER be addressed for atleast 3 version since its an architecture problem. To quote one dev, its impossible to do! Needs rewriting of lightwave.

But I can only afford lightwave so I stick with it for personal work maybe for the next 5 years. :D If you can afford max, maya, xsi, c4d its something to try. Personally I would go with max and maya which has more job and work opportunities.

BokadCastle
01-13-2013, 01:46 AM
I'm suspicious.
Could it be, with the imminent release of 11.5 that this person is some sort of 'agent' bent on undermining LW?

50one
01-13-2013, 02:06 AM
There are few topics that will always end up in a fight of some sort, these are: Core, undo system, users asking for other render engine(cause the one we've got now - can match the vray quality). To be fair, if you have problem with undo, i would switch to Modo or 3dsmax, i use both and both are great. But yeah, I can feel your pain.

RebelHill
01-13-2013, 04:14 AM
There are few topics that will always end up in a fight of some sort... switch to Modo or 3dsmax, i use both and both are great.

My LW, MotionBuilder, SoftImage combo is better than your LW, Modo, Max combo...

:P

50one
01-13-2013, 06:06 AM
My LW, MotionBuilder, SoftImage combo is better than your LW, Modo, Max combo...

:P


OK, you win.

...well, in fact I started using Modo to get rid of 3Dmax...

Sebasvideo
01-13-2013, 09:42 AM
You have been here less than one month and you are showing quite a bit of anger and confrontation. While these Newtek forums can often be contentious, they are an incredible wealth spring of help and knowledge - people here often go out of their way to help one another. But... displaying your anger as you have been doing - especially from a newbie using the program - you are not doing yourself any favors. When you ask questions in the future, people who may know exactly how to solve your problem may well ignore you because of how you have presented yourself in this thread.

An apology to everyone here would go a LONG way to mending the fences you have torn - regardless as to whether or not the posters were trying to berate you. Breathe.... and then post. :)

Just a word of advice.

I'm the one showing anger and confrontation??? I started this thread to ask a simple question, if the undo system was really this bad or if I was doing something wrong because I didn't know the program well. I was told it's the way it is, and while most of the people that contributed to this thread were polite and gave me their views on the issue, some other arrogant idiots started calling me ignorant, a douchebag, and that I should change careers because I have ADD (which is quite discriminatory, not to mention rude) and many other things that were completely out of line. Did I insult anybody? No. The only thing I did was saying that the Undo system in this program is not well designed, which many people actually agreed with, and that I was going to look for other programs because that was kind of a deal breaker for me. Then the fan boys were hurt because I didn't want to stick with their beloved Lightwave and started insulting me.

So what should I apologize for? Apologize to some arrogant jackasses that became experts in using this program and that made their heads larger than Mr. Mackey? I don't care how good you may be at something, I'm really good at some stuff too, doesn't mean I go around belittling people that aren't. Besides, if I stick with Lightwave, I don't care if those arrogant morons do not answer my posts. They would probably start spewing acid anyway. As seen in this thread and most threads here, there are plenty of nice people left that don't have their heads up their asses and don't believe they have the right to be rude to beginners.

Sebasvideo
01-13-2013, 09:59 AM
I'd say the first "fix" you need is not to LightWave's undo feature, but to your ADD. There are meds that will fix it and allow you to function normally, regardless of the software you use.

Yes, LW's undo feature fairly sucks, but your ADD is a separate issue that needs to be addressed whether NewTek fixes undo or not.

OK, I think some people here are getting the impression that my ADD is like this huge problem I have that doesn't let me operate any software. Far from that, I have a normal life, and I use several different programs without any issues. I do take an ADD medication, but even if I didn't, I could still use any program I want like I did for twenty years before taking any medication. Getting a little distracted from time to time doesn't mean it's my fault that this program has a terrible undo system, even if it excels in other categories. I can assure you without a doubt, that anybody who used all other software that has a normal undo system would be taken aback by this undo system, or the lack of reset buttons or commands, like you have in After Effects and many other programs, even Powerpoint, and would probably become as frustrated as I am.

With this I mean that the suggestion that the problem here is my ADD and not the terrible design of the undo system in Lightwave is plain wrong.

djwaterman
01-13-2013, 10:16 AM
How did it come to this? I think he has a point.

kolby
01-13-2013, 11:06 AM
Sebasvideo: When I started with LW (v5.6) I was in the same situation as you are now. The Undo system in LW is basically useless and always has been. My attempts to switch to another software always ended up with the fact that I just swapping one problem for another. If LW in other aspects suits your needs and requirements for what you want to do, so just try to find a way to deal with it. In addition, I'm sure that when you get some practice you will need that undo button less and less. Wait a few days for LW11.5. There has to be some copy/paste improvements in the surface editor that can make your life easier.

Cageman
01-13-2013, 11:49 AM
Sebasvideo: When I started with LW (v5.6) I was in the same situation as you are now. The Undo system in LW is basically useless and always has been. My attempts to switch to another software always ended up with the fact that I just swapping one problem for another. If LW in other aspects suits your needs and requirements for what you want to do, so just try to find a way to deal with it.

This is EXACTLY why we are using LW in the studio. I couldn't have put it better than what you just did. LW has certain things that it does extremely well, rendering is one of them. So, instead of fighting a whole slew of license server issues (among other problems), we use LW because it is that much easier to manage when it comes to rendering on a large renderfarm.

So, while LW certanly lacks a bunch of usefull features, it also come with features that puts other apps to shame. You have to understand that there will allways be a constant struggle between what application to use... but, if you see all applications as something that can be used together, you will struggle less, and produce more.

Multi-application pipelines = win win!

Serling
01-13-2013, 12:05 PM
OK, I think some people here are getting the impression that my ADD is like this huge problem I have that doesn't let me operate any software.

You raised the issue:


Right, but see, I have ADD and really bad short term memory. If I change a parameter, sometimes I won't even remember what the number was before I changed it, in part because I'm used to every other software having normal undo. So to use Lightwave I would have to change the way I do things and remember the number before I change it, in case I want to return to it.

The implication of this paragraph is that you can't use LightWave as it is or as others do because of your ADD. If you didn't want people to come away with this impression, why did you even bring it up? :tsktsk:

Rayek
01-13-2013, 12:19 PM
How did it come to this? I think he has a point.

+1 Sebasvideo was just asking about the undo system, wasn't he? Reading his posts I never felt as if he attacked anyone - rather, it seemed to me he had to defend himself against attacks. Though the problem with text-only communication like this and email is always the inherent danger of someone misreading the original intent. Never forget that 90% of human communication consists of body language.

Anyway, totally concur with Kolby: LW keeps chugging along nicely under high-pressure production deadlines. One of its strengths, and far more important than an application with a great undo system, but that will fold/crash under pressure.

I discussed this last week with a guy who prefers to work with 3dCoat instead of zBrush: under tight deadlines and pressure zBrush has a tendency to crash and fold when you least expect it. His words, not mine: he worked on multiple AAA game titles.

khan973
01-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Maybe it will make you laugh but I realized LW had no real undo system a few (approx 2) years ago when reading a long topic a bout it :)
I've started with lightwave 5.0, After I was using 3DStudio 4 on DOS. So everything was pretty enjoyable as you can imagine.
As DjLithium stated, LW has pros and cons. In LW there are plenty of things you have to do by hand but it helps you "think" and focus more about underlying concepts than just tools.
Particles, Hypervoxels can do awesome stuff (some here have done amazing stuff) even though there is not a "make fire" or "make dust" button.
I know that the learning by the pain doens't necessarely suit everybody but I can tell you that from all people I've hired, people using correctly Lightwave were the most efficient, more creative, better problem solvers and were working way cleaner than others.
The lack of learning materials (despite big efforts from many DjLithium mentionned + Brice, Gerardo Estrada, Denis Pontonnier, Ten 24 etc...) forces us to think and not only be button pushers.
However, I can understand that it can get pretty annoying! Sincerely, I rarely reload a scene, you can save nodes, surfaces, use the preset tab. I hope you get over the frustration!
Have you tried Cinema 4D as well? If you've been using AE a lot, it might be a good option.

And yeah Kelly is damn right, don't let things people call a "disability" or "handicap" get on the way to your success.
Don't forget that Einstein, Mozart were autistic (Asperger to be exact)...

Good luck in your learning

RebelHill
01-13-2013, 01:13 PM
OK, I think some people here are getting the impression that my ADD is like this huge problem I have that doesn't let me operate any software....

the suggestion that the problem here is my ADD and not the terrible design of the undo system in Lightwave is plain wrong.

This PRESUMES the undo system is designed at all...

But, no... Ive no idea how much others are taking it as a factor, but the ADD must be one since you mentioned it as a "point of interference" (shall we say) with the (so-called) undo design.

But irrespective of that, lets just take it as a non factor at all, and just bring it down to the level of the software, and its "ease of use"...

ALL of the major/high end 3D apps will require you to keep/store/shuffle around large amounts of "info" in your head in order to be able to work with them... its just where things are at right now, they're just plain not at the same level of interaction/automation as things like photoshop, or after effects. They're just not. By all means, look around, as a user of multiple apps, I for one would never claim that "LWs the daddy", or "There's nothing wrong with LW, it must be you", nor anything else to that effect... BUT... as a user of multiple such apps I can PROMISE you that LWs (lets just say total lack) of an undo system is one of the LEAST challenging things out there that you're going to have to confront.

Serling
01-13-2013, 02:03 PM
BUT... as a user of multiple such apps I can PROMISE you that LWs (lets just say total lack) of an undo system is one of the LEAST challenging things out there that you're going to have to confront.

+1

Cageman
01-13-2013, 02:17 PM
BUT... as a user of multiple such apps I can PROMISE you that LWs (lets just say total lack) of an undo system is one of the LEAST challenging things out there that you're going to have to confront.

Oh so true! It's one of those things that doesn't get in the way as much as one would presume, comming from another application, where undo on all levels is part of the workflow. I have to admitt that it is kind of interresting how fast LW can work, even without a proper undo. The one thing that I have to stress is that I work completely different when using Maya compared to LW. And, funny enough, I've noticed that LWs lack of a proper Undo doesn't get in the way compared to those situations in Maya where you have forgotten to activate undo (mainly render it to a similar level as LW).

LW_Will
01-13-2013, 03:52 PM
I've got another good one " god will forgive your mistakes, Lightwave won't" how's that sounds?:)

Yeah... need that one on a tattoo with black roses and barbed wire.

Lightwave is real, and it hurts... ;-)

Serling
01-13-2013, 04:25 PM
How did it come to this? I think he has a point.

Yes, he has a point, and many of us have agreed with his point regarding LightWave's undo "feature." But his point included a reference to a medical condition (ADD) that he felt would preclude him from using the software as it now exists. That's not NewTek's problem. I'd love to have a "fix" in LightWave that allowed me to eat as much sugar as I wanted without having to worry about my blood sugar spiking, but NewTek isn't in business to solve its users medical problems.

If ADD is such an issue that you can't use a given piece of software as everyone else does, then ADD is probably the issue that needs to be fixed and that isn't going to be fixed here either by NewTek or its user community.

Hope this helps.

DigitalSorcery8
01-13-2013, 05:07 PM
As seen in this thread and most threads here, there are plenty of nice people left that don't have their heads up their asses and don't believe they have the right to be rude to beginners.

Okay.

Your loss.

Good luck.

shrox
01-13-2013, 05:20 PM
I am not going to read this thread anymore. Really. Outta here on this subject. Yep. Ah-dee-os.

No popping in anymore. No sir.





Yep.

Serling
01-13-2013, 06:55 PM
And, just for the record (as a perpetual newbie here myself) I have never experienced any disrespect for my (often) stupid questions. This community is one of the finest groups of users on the web.

For what it's worth.

Sebasvideo
01-13-2013, 07:20 PM
But his point included a reference to a medical condition (ADD) that he felt would preclude him from using the software as it now exists. That's not NewTek's problem.

If ADD is such an issue that you can't use a given piece of software as everyone else does, then ADD is probably the issue that needs to be fixed and that isn't going to be fixed here either by NewTek or its user community.

No, that's precisely the point you're not getting, and I explained it previously. As I said my ADD is not terrible, I've been operating software programs for 20 years without issue, and while from time to time I may get distracted and maybe my short term memory is not perfect, more than half the people I deal in my everyday life has it worse than me, without even admitting that they have ADD. In this crazy multitasking world of nowadays, everybody has ADD. It's impossible for the human brain to retain so much data constantly as it's required today in the civilized world, to retain every number that you see on the screen and never get distracted by anything dancing in your head. The cure for ADD would probably be to move to a cabin in the middle of nowhere without access to TV, phone or internet services.

Some people like you here are making this big deal out of my reference to ADD as if I wanted to run a marathon and I was missing my legs, like some arrogant idiot in this thread who was rude and condescending enough to tell me to change careers, as if I wasn't worthy of the 3D design world because I have a bit of ADD. Well, based on the people I dealt with all my life, about half the world has ADD and memory problems.

Whether you have ADD or not, anyone trying to use this program, coming from most other software with at least a half decent undo system will find themselves in my same situation. It's funny how the fan boys here try to blame the user for the lack of a decent undo capability.

But hey, this thread really fed me up, I keep wasting my time explaining what I meant and while some people here are nice, there are some arrogant and rude people that keep telling me how wrong I am for not sticking with a brilliant piece of software like Lightwave because the rest suck donkey balls. Well, I for one will not spend $1500 without first exploring other options, and it may be that Lightwave is indeed the best option even with the awful undo system, or I may end up buying something else. But I'm done with this thread because I don't want to waste more time for nothing.

BokadCastle
01-13-2013, 08:01 PM
I remain suspicious.

- - - Updated - - -

Go away.

Snosrap
01-13-2013, 08:16 PM
I'm the one showing anger and confrontation??? I started this thread to ask a simple question, if the undo system was really this bad or if I was doing something wrong because I didn't know the program well. I was told it's the way it is, and while most of the people that contributed to this thread were polite and gave me their views on the issue, some other arrogant idiots started calling me ignorant, a douchebag, and that I should change careers because I have ADD (which is quite discriminatory, not to mention rude) and many other things that were completely out of line. Did I insult anybody? No. The only thing I did was saying that the Undo system in this program is not well designed, which many people actually agreed with, and that I was going to look for other programs because that was kind of a deal breaker for me. Then the fan boys were hurt because I didn't want to stick with their beloved Lightwave and started insulting me.

So what should I apologize for? Apologize to some arrogant jackasses that became experts in using this program and that made their heads larger than Mr. Mackey? I don't care how good you may be at something, I'm really good at some stuff too, doesn't mean I go around belittling people that aren't. Besides, if I stick with Lightwave, I don't care if those arrogant morons do not answer my posts. They would probably start spewing acid anyway. As seen in this thread and most threads here, there are plenty of nice people left that don't have their heads up their asses and don't believe they have the right to be rude to beginners.

Sebasvideo, please don't let this thread turn you off to LW or it's community. :thumbsup: Most of us really try to be helpful and at most times civil. :) LW's lack of a proper undo system as well as whether Layout and Modeler be combined can really get some community members hot. Kick the tires on LW as well as some other apps and just see what what works and by all means if you have any questions just ask. - Just don't ask about LW's undo system or why Modeler and Layout are separate. :D

Serling
01-13-2013, 08:17 PM
As I said my ADD is not terrible, I've been operating software programs for 20 years without issue...

Then why even bring it up??? 8~

DigitalSorcery8
01-13-2013, 08:41 PM
Then why even bring it up??? 8~
Because he's pretty much now only looking to complain.

He brought up the UNDO situation and MOST people here agree with him - profusely. Others brought up viable work-arounds to help out. There were a couple who essentially "looked the other way" - but only a few.

He brought up ADD to enhance his reasoning for NEEDING undos. Apparently he didn't expect it to get as much attention as it did. Regardless, WE didn't bring it up, he did.

Again... too bad.

I've been on so many other software forums and this thread is relatively light - other places would have crucified him for even bringing it up. :) I remember bringing up what I thought was a simple question on an XSI forum and you would not believe how many negative and derogatory comments I received. I was stunned - not used to that after being on these forums for years.

hrgiger
01-13-2013, 09:09 PM
Because he's pretty much now only looking to complain.



I'm sorry but I haven't gotten this impression at all. The guy starts the thread by admitting that maybe its his lack of understanding of the program or that maybe he's doing something wrong and he simply asks the question, did he miss something or is this just the way it is in LightWave. This is not the way someone who simply wants to complain or stir up trouble starts a topic. The guy was just looking to understand the undo system ( or lack thereof) in LightWave. He also goes onto say that he suffers from ADD and poor short term memory and so this is why a good undo system would certainly benefit him. He wasn't making excuses, he was giving a reason as to why this particular feature might be important for him.

So what he gets for that is a lot of people minimizing the importance of an undo system in 3D, telling him maybe he needs a new career, telling him that they don't suffer from this particular issue so maybe he shouldn't either, suggesting that undo is for girls, telling him that all he simply has to do is learn not to make mistakes, spammed with a link to some training... I would have been annoyed and irritated as well.

GandB
01-13-2013, 09:11 PM
I've pretty much drawn the same conclusions as Hrgiger here. Jeez; lighten up on him guys, I thought people responded more civil in the LW Boards?

Serling
01-13-2013, 09:24 PM
I thought people responded more civil in the LW Boards?

I thought most of us did.

djwaterman
01-13-2013, 09:25 PM
In truth all he asked was a simple and reasonable question.

DigitalSorcery8
01-13-2013, 09:32 PM
I'm sorry but I haven't gotten this impression at all. The guy starts the thread by admitting that maybe its his lack of understanding of the program or that maybe he's doing something wrong and he simply asks the question, did he miss something or is this just the way it is in LightWave. This is not the way someone who simply wants to complain or stir up trouble starts a topic. The guy was just looking to understand the undo system ( or lack thereof) in LightWave. He also goes onto say that he suffers from ADD and poor short term memory and so this is why a good undo system would certainly benefit him. He wasn't making excuses, he was giving a reason as to why this particular feature might be important for him.
Nope. MOST people here told him that they agreed with him and others also suggested workarounds. You aren't going to change the program overnight by talking about it in a forum. The UNDO system is what it is - not too bad in Modeler and non-existent in Layout. You can say anything you want, but it isn't going to change what is in LW right now. Or am I missing some incredible miracle that by sheer will and talking about it this will change?


So what he gets for that is a lot of people minimizing the importance of an undo system in 3D, telling him maybe he needs a new career, telling him that they don't suffer from this particular issue so maybe he shouldn't either, suggesting that undo is for girls, telling him that all he simply has to do is learn not to make mistakes, spammed with a link to some training... I would have been annoyed and irritated as well.
No, there were NOT allot of people minimizing the importance of this UNDO system - only a SMALL few. MOST people agreed with him. Others offered workarounds. Continuing to harp on it won't change it. Accept it and either work around it or try another app. Simple. About the suggesting "undo is for girls" - that poster was apparently being funny and I doubt he was intending to be nasty. I thought it was funny and not nasty. Another problem with text-based postings - you can't SEE the intent of the poster.

- - - Updated - - -


In truth all he asked was a simple and reasonable question.

And had he left it at that... fine.

But he didn't by getting into ADD and then more. What more could anyone here do? Rewrite the program for him so that UNDO's will now work as we ALL would like?

Marcia
01-13-2013, 10:27 PM
Sabasvideo's initial question was reasonable and framed in a (mostly) non-confrontational way, but as soon as he introduced the ADD issue, some people (including me) believed his real concern involved adapting to LW. Some of us followed the red herring in an attempt to be helpful not (in most cases) deliberately insulting. It's not necessary to quote the entire thread to demonstrate how defensive he became. Maybe some of you missed the disrespectful slurs hurled at the LightWave community in general (fan bios, etc), the analogy implying LW users have a less-than-rational basis for using the software (just like those idiotic Mac users), etc. IOW, his arrows weren't really aimed at the apple.

A few of us may have confronted him, but not without provocation. He's not an innocent victim, and I'm not the only one who noticed the lack of respect and thinly veiled insults. [/alternate viewpoint]

M.
Former Usenet Bully

Serling
01-13-2013, 10:41 PM
Sabasvideo's initial question was reasonable and framed in a (mostly) non-confrontational way, but as soon as he introduced the ADD issue, some people (including me) believed his real concern involved adapting to LW. Some of us followed the red herring in an attempt to be helpful not (in most cases) deliberately insulting. It's not necessary to quote the entire thread to demonstrate how defensive he became. Maybe some of you missed the disrespectful slurs hurled at the LightWave community in general (fan bios, etc), the analogy implying LW users have a less-than-rational basis for using the software (just like those idiotic Mac users), etc. IOW, his arrows weren't really aimed at the apple.

A few of us may have confronted him, but not without provocation. He's not an innocent victim, and I'm not the only one who noticed the lack of respect and thinly veiled insults. [/alternate viewpoint]

As far as I'm concerned, when someone says that they may not be able to use the software as written because of their ADD, the software isn't the issue. I have close, personal experience with ADD and it's not a problem for people who are taking medication for it. So if ADD were a problem worthy of mentioning because it precluded his use of the software as written, then fix the problem you have some power to fix: the ADD! And if - as we find out later - it weren't such an issue, why even bring it up?

I mean, I thought I was trying to help solve a problem by getting right to the heart of it. Instead, we've all been treated to a genuinely pointless thread. Go figure. :screwy:

(Although I suppose we all needed something to replace the Mayan "end of the world" threads. :))

geo_n
01-13-2013, 10:45 PM
It sounds like you've already talked yourself out of LightWave. I understand you have a particular working style in 2d that you'd like to match in a 3d program, but you seem to be narrowly focused on relatively minor issues while ignoring more substantial factors that weigh in LightWave's favor. Of course, you're arguing to group of mostly die-hard users who could have abandoned the program long ago but haven't. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?

And I never said you couldn't concentrate on anything; I was simply addressing a concern you raised several times in this thread. I've found it to be a non-issue, but YMMV.

Incidentally, LightWave IS recognized in "the industry" (which industry?), and I doubt anyone here is living under a bridge because they prefer working in LW over other products, or because they integrate LW into their pipeline(s).

Good luck with your decision.

Undo is not a minor issue. Even long time users have pointed this out as major problem. I'm not a long time lw user by any margin but I also requested a lot of undo functions in lw. But the reality sinked in when a developer said its impossible to do without rewriting lightwave. I will wait 2-3 versions more to see what the Lightwave3D group can accomplish as they have stated they're rewriting lightwave internally.



That's a good point, but not in the way you think. Talking to a group of die-hard users will never give you an objective perspective on anything, 3D program or else. It's like trying to convince Mac fan boys that the current line of Mac Pros suck big time compared to PC alternatives. You can tell them that they can have a much better and faster PC for a lot less money, have way more choices on the components that go inside, and that the current Mac Pro line is, as a review put it, "grossly outdated hardware". But those die hard Mac fans are still going to spend $4000 or more in a machine that doesn't deserve it by far, and then another $2,000 in a Quadro card when they realize that the outdated Radeons that come with them are useless for many video applications.

Now, I didn't give this example to say that Lightwave is the same, because Lightwave doesn't suck and it's a very good program with the exception of the undo, but it's hard to get an objective view in this forum about it. Granted, I wasn't looking for it, I was simply trying to find out if this flawed undo system Lightwave has is because it's just like that, or if I had missed a tick mark somewhere in the preferences.

So he did say lightwave is a very good program with the exception of the undo. People are missing the point he's making. There's more demeaning posts from other users before this one even started.

DigitalSorcery8
01-13-2013, 11:23 PM
(Although I suppose we all needed something to replace the Mayan "end of the world" threads. :))

Yes, but they can easily be replaced with the Hopi Indian prophecies.

THAT will be fun! :)

DigitalSorcery8
01-13-2013, 11:26 PM
So he did say lightwave is a very good program with the exception of the undo. People are missing the point he's making. There's more demeaning posts from other users before this one even started.
How can you say that when the VAST majority here agreed with him.

The "point" was made AND accepted.

geo_n
01-13-2013, 11:41 PM
How can you say that when the VAST majority here agreed with him.

The "point" was made AND accepted.

I was referring to why this thread is where it is before the quoted post above regarding macs, etc. If someone told someone to try a different career(disabled or not) or undo's are for girls, etc, what would you post next?
Imho his post above with the macs, lightwave is pretty tame compared to the more angtsy posts regarding Core, for and against, in the HC forum. That was a entertainment.

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 12:06 AM
I was referring to why this thread is where it is before the quoted post above regarding macs, etc. If someone told someone to try a different career(disabled or not) or undo's are for girls, etc, what would you post next?
Imho his post above with the macs, lightwave is pretty tame compared to the more angtsy posts regarding Core, for and against, in the HC forum. That was a entertainment.

As I mentioned above, I believed that the "undo for girls" was simply a joke - apparently some people did not take it as such. I can understand that since English is not everyone's first language. The post about "a new career" was - I assume - also meant in jest and I took it as such. But apparently others did not.

The point is... nearly EVERYONE has agreed with the OP that UNDO is horrible in LW (Layout) - no one said he was wrong or it was stupid. I agree with him. He went off on a tangent with ADD and then "it's not that bad" and then Mac fanboyism and...

When you're new in a forum, you tend to tread lightly - not snap at something that could easily have been a misunderstanding. But he kept at it. Oh well. When I go to a new forum, I tread VERY lightly and choose not to snap when confronted with something that appears.... questionable. Apparently the OP hasn't learned that lesson.

Edit. OT - Yeah... the CORE forum was indeed VERY contentious. That forum should now be blended with the regular forum or dissolved. The only purpose it serves now is to divide the community. Bring everything back to ONE forum.

BokadCastle
01-14-2013, 12:16 AM
This being is not who he/she/it appears to be.
Beware.

BokadCastle
01-14-2013, 12:36 AM
I've rolled the knuckles and consulted the cards.
Answer...there'll be tears before bedtime.

BokadCastle
01-14-2013, 12:48 AM
This is a precursor for 11.5 - think about it, there'll be many who will try to denigrate it.

Serling
01-14-2013, 01:24 AM
When you're new in a forum, you tend to tread lightly - not snap at something that could easily have been a misunderstanding.

Especially when you're looking for help from the people you least want to piss off. :thumbsup:

OnlineRender
01-14-2013, 01:36 AM
this thread needs UNDO ...

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 01:43 AM
this thread needs UNDO ...
I'll second that motion.

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 01:43 AM
Double post.

Hail
01-14-2013, 01:55 AM
I m scratching my head about this, seriously?
How can a simple question such as...
"what's the deal with the lack of undos and resets in lots of places?" degenerate into such nasty exchanges?
It just too ridiculous!
It was a simple, harmless question he asked.
SMH

Kaptive
01-14-2013, 02:07 AM
I've not kept up with this thread, and I really don't want to. My only suggestion is as follows...

STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD... STEP AWAY FROM THE THREAD.

:)

Don't even respond to this message... let the thread slip quietly down into last weeks threads. Misunderstandings are misunderstandings, and that is where best to leave it.

Final word if my advice is taken above...

Undo could be better. Enough said. :)

SaturnX
01-14-2013, 02:16 AM
This is EXACTLY why we are using LW in the studio. I couldn't have put it better than what you just did. LW has certain things that it does extremely well, rendering is one of them. So, instead of fighting a whole slew of license server issues (among other problems), we use LW because it is that much easier to manage when it comes to rendering on a large renderfarm.

So, while LW certanly lacks a bunch of usefull features, it also come with features that puts other apps to shame. You have to understand that there will allways be a constant struggle between what application to use... but, if you see all applications as something that can be used together, you will struggle less, and produce more.

Multi-application pipelines = win win!


Multi-application pipelines should be encouraged on these forums.
You are so right.

geo_n
01-14-2013, 04:32 AM
As I mentioned above, I believed that the "undo for girls" was simply a joke - apparently some people did not take it as such. I can understand that since English is not everyone's first language. The post about "a new career" was - I assume - also meant in jest and I took it as such. But apparently others did not.


Not all jokes are funny though even if they're intended to be, with voice over or without :D. If I hit someone on the head with a newspaper thats very common comedy here but probably not anywhere else. :D
If one's needs or feature request is deemed as a relatively minor issue preceded by jokes, probably the op will be acting the way he did.
This thread does need an undo.
Which parts of lightwave need the most undo feature? Layout is just full of them.
No undo when items, bones removed - check
No undo when dragging keys in dopetrack - check
No undo in most numerical inputs - check
No undo in image editor - check
No undo in surface editor - check

Hail
01-14-2013, 05:21 AM
Which parts of lightwave need the most undo feature? Layout is just full of them.
No undo when items, bones removed - check
No undo when dragging keys in dopetrack - check
No undo in most numerical inputs - check
No undo in image editor - check
No undo in surface editor - check

.. and a single undo in the graph editor as well as zero undo in the already next to useless motion mixer

Jim M
01-14-2013, 06:33 AM
No undo in surface editor - check - not exactly true.

I work predominantly in the node editor for Surface / Motion / Displacements etc which all have undos.
I have never had an issue with the lacking undo system, though I can see why some people would struggle.

Hail
01-14-2013, 06:51 AM
No undo in surface editor - check - not exactly true.

I work predominantly in the node editor for Surface / Motion / Displacements etc which all have undos.
I have never had an issue with the lacking undo system, though I can see why some people would struggle.

I think he was referring the main surface editor panel(which is quiet true unfortunately) and not the node editor.

Jim M
01-14-2013, 06:54 AM
I know. That's the point I am raising. Thanks though.

DigitalSorcery8
01-14-2013, 03:27 PM
Not all jokes are funny though even if they're intended to be, with voice over or without :D. If I hit someone on the head with a newspaper thats very common comedy here but probably not anywhere else. :D
If one's needs or feature request is deemed as a relatively minor issue preceded by jokes, probably the op will be acting the way he did.
This thread does need an undo.
Which parts of lightwave need the most undo feature? Layout is just full of them.
No undo when items, bones removed - check
No undo when dragging keys in dopetrack - check
No undo in most numerical inputs - check
No undo in image editor - check
No undo in surface editor - check

Yes, you are quite correct. Hitting someone on the head with a newspaper - pretty much slapstick comedy - but it is funny here too. Benny Hill had allot of that. And yes, some jokes are not funny even though they were intended to be funny. The point here is... if you're new on a forum, "tread lightly." And since YOU are asking for help, not those who are answering you, you should think that MAYBE your reply could be construed as... confrontational. And that could be true of ANYONE here - newbie or oldtimer - but newbies should... "tread lightly." ;)

And again yes... UNDO is VERY much needed in Layout - without question. Few - if anyone here - disagree. :)

NinoK
01-14-2013, 04:18 PM
I've used LW for a while now, and have grown accustomed to its lack of undo. Its acceptance, but I still dislike the lack of it. Learning rigging was a nightmare without undo. I still remember my days of "This is working great, now I just need to delete this, oh wait... WTF it all broke, oh well ill just UN... NOOOOOOOOOOO" Lol. I still run into rigging undo issues, but It really frustrates me when I am trying to teach someone, and they get in a bind or do something I know does not have an undo, and then you laugh, point out and joke about how its "just LW" but in reality it means lost productivity and less trust in the application.

I hope Newtek improves it soon. I know its further down the list though because if they do spend time and fix it, they wont be able to cheer it on as a new 'feature'. "Hey we finally have UNDO!" just doesn't seem like something they'd want to advertise. :p

Jim M
01-15-2013, 01:59 AM
Do or don't do. There is no try (undo).

erikals
01-15-2013, 06:38 AM
video - Surface Undo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tH0NhDok-A

yep, undo in LW is not too good, but decent in Modeler
good thing though is that you will use it less and less as you get to know the functions better.

SonicN2O
03-31-2013, 11:14 AM
Oh, sure I'll keep messing with it for a while, I do like the program except for the undo system and I downloaded lots of great free models from many websites. Now, perhaps this is for another thread, but I was wondering if there is a way to export a model as an .obj and then export each of the surfaces as separate graphic files? I'm talking about all the layers that make up the look of a surface, whether it's made of nodes or procedural textures. The reason I'm asking is that I would like to try to composite a model of a Galactica Viper MKII I downloaded into real footage, and while Lightwave has all the bells and whistles for the most realistic look, if I do the same thing in After Effects with Element 3D it would take substantially less time to render, because it uses Open GL (or CUDA, I can't remember which) instead of Raytracing. Obviously this means a lot of realism is lost, but I would like to see how close can I get in Element 3D to what I see in Layout when in VPR mode.

The reason I would need the surfaces as rendered files is that in Element 3D you can load an object but it loads naked, and you have to apply all the textures separately, which is a pain, but it renders so much faster that you can still save time.

I don't know if someone has already answered the surfacing thing for you yet, but how I'd do it is:
Set up your surfaces.
Load your object into layout.
Change your camera to "surface baking camera".
To to options and select the mapping you want your image files to be. I don't use element, so I don't know if you want a uv map or not.
Go to windows>image processing. Under image filters, select compositing buffer export.
Select "shaded diffuse", "shaded specular", and so on.
Set destination to "image viewer" or something.
Press F9.
On the layer drop down menu, select your passes and save them out.
As for saving your object as a .obj file, I'm not sure if modeler can do that. If it can't, there are plenty of scripts that you can find and download that you can get for free, thanks to the extreme kindness and generosity of the lightwave community.
Also, I know firsthand that a seemingly innocent remark can send the entire forum after you. If you misspoke, then APOLOGIZE. If you truly didn't. Do anything wrong, then people will come to defend you, PROVIDED that you stay CIVIL, and not cast the proverbial first stone.

Hmm... I think I might change my sig to "tea party lightwaver"...

Sebasvideo
03-31-2013, 01:07 PM
I was surprised to get an email with a reply to this thread after so long, but well, it doesn't matter, I ended up buying Modo and I'm happy with it. That doesn't mean that I think Lightwave is a bad program, and probably it has some features that Modo lacks and viceversa, but of all the similar programs I tried it's by far the best and gaining market share because of its speed and productivity. And, it has undo for everything. I can set it to record 2000 undos, and I can even open a window that gives me the list of all the changes I made. All I have to do is drag upwards as many commands as I want.

Besides, I must say that the people at the modo official forum are way nicer than here. I interacted with them almost every day since I started using Modo, and I even criticized a thing or two about it, and I wasn't met with the amount of vitriol that I found here just for asking if the undo system in Lightwave was that bad or if I was doing something wrong. In fact, there wasn't one single person there that have been anything but helpful, even if they didn't agree with me on something.

Lewis
03-31-2013, 02:25 PM
Good to se you are happy with your choice and yes I agree that undo is very important feature in 3D program (actually in any program :)) and if it means to you that much LW is not package for you then.

MannaTheBerserk
03-31-2013, 06:42 PM
Besides, I must say that the people at the modo official forum are way nicer than here. I interacted with them almost every day since I started using Modo, and I even criticized a thing or two about it, and I wasn't met with the amount of vitriol that I found here just for asking if the undo system in Lightwave was that bad or if I was doing something wrong. In fact, there wasn't one single person there that have been anything but helpful, even if they didn't agree with me on something.

I am sorry, but I must disagree.

I have found exactly the opposite situation when I had to decide which software to buy among Modo and Lightwave.

On the Modo forum there've been people starting to argue and bashing me for no reasons at all, just because I asked opinions about the two pieces of software.

Here, on the other hand, I found plenty of helpful persons, very kind and willing to help.

See? Different experiences.

erikals
04-01-2013, 01:23 AM
i think the NT forum is quite nice, there are seldom any personal attacks here, even though it can happen, once or twice...
this specific thread had a bitter tone at times, but over-all, it's usually not that bad.

SonicN2O
04-01-2013, 08:53 AM
Sebas has made his decision, this thread no longer serves any positive purpose. End of story.

GandB
04-01-2013, 09:12 AM
this thread no longer serves any positive purpose.

Other than to point out that the Undo needs some SERIOUS attention. :thumbsup:

fishhead
04-02-2013, 04:20 AM
Well, I think pretty much everyone is very much aware of this - it is just that it would apparantly need a bit of surgery going so deep into Layouts architecture that it just is not an easy task at all...
So, I would not expect it too happen before Layout gets a complete redesign.
But I am rather sure that this is already in the works (it was there already in a way: see Core...) but just will not hit the daylight yet, I am afraid...

just my 2cent...

- Lorenz

geo_n
05-12-2014, 08:35 PM
Well, I think pretty much everyone is very much aware of this - it is just that it would apparantly need a bit of surgery going so deep into Layouts architecture that it just is not an easy task at all...
So, I would not expect it too happen before Layout gets a complete redesign.
But I am rather sure that this is already in the works (it was there already in a way: see Core...) but just will not hit the daylight yet, I am afraid...

just my 2cent...

- Lorenz

Hurley has implemented his own undo system with his plugins. 3rdpowers has undo with his plugins. Maybe its possible to implement undo that would work on layouts each part for now until the architecture is slowly rewritten without having to start from scratch and losing much of the userbase. A complete rewrite from scratch might not be a good idea looking at other softwares current status.

kadri
05-13-2014, 06:26 PM
On a kinda funny note i am afraid of the day Lightwave gets full UNDO support and is mentioned in the NEW features list. :D
Still not sure how i will feel when i will read that...or if they will mention that at all...
When i try to talk about Lightwave to other people it is one of the things i am afraid that they will ask me about.
They can understand that this or that feature isn't there. But undo is hard to explain...
The good thing is that mostly all people think about that as a given and don't even ask about that naturally :)
I use it since 20 years and every time i begin to work with it my brain switches to a harsh "No forgeting" mode.
I am still surprised that it doesn't hinder working so much as it looks to others actually.

erikals
05-13-2014, 10:22 PM
Hurley has implemented his own undo system with his plugins. 3rdpowers has undo with his plugins. Maybe its possible to implement undo that would work on layouts each part for now until the architecture is slowly rewritten without having to start from scratch and losing much of the userbase. A complete rewrite from scratch might not be a good idea looking at other softwares current status.

agree, no need for complete rewrite for this...

also see >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_hncPHXkKo

Hail
05-14-2014, 08:31 AM
What?
You are asking for another half assed solution?
No thank you!!!
I would rather wait for a complete system that works rather than have them waste valuable time building more half baked stuff that may not even work right.
That effort would be better spent refining areas of the architecture that will allow for a complete undo system in layout.
The current state of fragmentation in lw is troubling enough

erikals
05-14-2014, 11:30 AM
how the h... is that a half assed solution?

would you rather have an undo function that will remove things you still want to keep?

no thanks... :/

Snosrap
05-14-2014, 09:24 PM
Yep - that's pretty lame. :) Sorry erikals, please take no personal offense.

Dodgy
05-14-2014, 09:35 PM
I've said this before, but I like the idea of context undos, which we kind of have now. A separate undo queue for surfacing, animating and modeling, so you can choose which part you want to undo depending on which window is selected. You might want to just undo some animation, but leave surfacing changes and modelling changes as they are. That makes more sense to me from a usability point of view than one big undo queue where you can't select the changes you want to undo. The best thing is, you can just build on the systems as they are now, as the node editor has undos, you just need to add them to other systems more and more.

erikals
05-14-2014, 10:36 PM
I've said this before, but I like the idea of context undos, which we kind of have now. A separate undo queue for surfacing, animating and modeling, so you can choose which part you want to undo depending on which window is selected. You might want to just undo some animation, but leave surfacing changes and modelling changes as they are. That makes more sense to me from a usability point of view than one big undo queue where you can't select the changes you want to undo. The best thing is, you can just build on the systems as they are now, as the node editor has undos, you just need to add them to other systems more and more.

E-G-G-Z-A-C-T-L-Y.... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

not sure why others would even think to disagree...

Lewis
05-15-2014, 12:36 AM
History stack with list of everything (every command/move/surface change/click...) so you can delete/undo only parts you want :).

erikals
05-15-2014, 12:46 AM
history stack is nice when it works,
talking buggy Maya history stack, caused tons of crashes back in the days, maybe they fixed it by now...

but if so, i'd like the option to have grouped items,

History >
- selection undo
- surface undo
- keyframes undo
...etc...

Lewis
05-15-2014, 01:43 AM
history stack is nice when it works,
talking buggy Maya history stack, caused tons of crashes back in the days, maybe they fixed it by now...


It's not History stack that cause(s)d crashes, it's buggy program/code so..... ;).

jburford
05-15-2014, 03:32 AM
I Actually like Erikals proposal/idea! To me, makes sense, and easier to implement and keep seperate from normal undo wiping your surfacing changes just to undo and key set.

hrgiger
05-15-2014, 06:06 AM
History stack with list of everything (every command/move/surface change/click...) so you can delete/undo only parts you want :).

+1

Digital Hermit
05-18-2014, 05:59 PM
The greatest invention would be an undo in life... I keep looking for it... so maybe Lightwave is just imitating life!

How's that for cracker-barrel logic. ;)

erikals
05-18-2014, 06:28 PM
it has happened i moved something physically and then a second later thought "i should undo that"....

weird experience... :l

sami
05-19-2014, 05:17 AM
history stack is nice when it works,
talking buggy Maya history stack, caused tons of crashes back in the days, maybe they fixed it by now...

but if so, i'd like the option to have grouped items,

History >
- selection undo
- surface undo
- keyframes undo
...etc...

wouldn't dependencies between your undo stacks cause issues if you backtack one group then forward another? sounds dubious... maybe one master one like photoshop which does selection undo too would work better? I'd have to see what you describe in play first - good in theory - but I wonder...

jwiede
05-20-2014, 04:25 AM
wouldn't dependencies between your undo stacks cause issues if you backtack one group then forward another? sounds dubious... maybe one master one like photoshop which does selection undo too would work better? I'd have to see what you describe in play first - good in theory - but I wonder...
Yeah, it'd be a monster to implement, because of all the cross-stack dependencies that arise, and the indexing required to track them. The approach would almost certainly require more code overall (and definitely more complex code overall) than a single global history stack. Such an approach creates all sorts of difficult to reconcile edge cases where changes in one stack affect part of an operation in another stack -- comprehensive testing would require substantially more effort versus a single history stack, as well.

A better answer would be to support "filtered" views of the global history by action type, which achieves much the same UX without as much added complexity.