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jeric_synergy
12-07-2012, 09:31 PM
Lately I've been having to use the RESET menu selection in the Numeric Panel.


8~

-- It's SO FRIGGING SLOW.

Why is this not a button? :devil:

Seriously, how much research do we have to dig up before the designers putting *redacted* menus all over the app to slow us down? :cursin:

probiner
12-08-2012, 04:14 AM
Agreed on the button. Laughing at the rant and its F:devil:rmat over such small thing (there are so many impossibles...). This is one area where Icons are actually best. Signage, which is reused all over. In this case, Reset.
http://www.endlessicons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/reset-icon-214x214.png

Anyway, go get some fresh air :p

erikals
12-08-2012, 06:24 AM
:agree:

yep, an "R" button would be nice
http://erikalstad.com/LW_11/Reset.png

i've been mentioning it now and then, not a fan of pull-downs, they are time consuming

Translate Plus also has this problem... (gets annoying when you use TP a lot)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExT0e3RHJdU

also the Snap Drag tool...
http://erikalstad.com/LW_11/Snap.png


i'm not going http://forums.newtek.com/images/smilies/brians/devil.gif over it though... :] :

jeric_synergy
12-08-2012, 12:22 PM
It's the incredibly obvious stuff that gets Satan. Seriously, a TWO selection menu? Flat out stupid.

Really, all this dumb stuff (or the vast majority) is from the Stone Age of Lightwave-- I have no doubt that Matt sees and intends to improve these ill-thought out programmer-esque touches. These things were put in by non-designers with very little experience or interest in good interface design.

Nobody thinks up rationalizations for bad UI faster than clever people, if it even gets pointed out to them.

At the same time they were designing crap UIs, they were also putting subsequent developers into strait-jackets with their home-brew panel API, which is, I believe based on many conversations, is why we have abominations like the one pictured below:
109676

I'm sure coders here could regale us all with the limitations of Panels. About the only thing that excited me about CORE was that it was an opportunity to at least lay the infrastructure of better UI options.

Keeping the pressure on, via huge hyperbole, let's them know these things matter. It's not like I'm getting paid to be diplomatic. If I were getting paid, I'd be more diplomatic. :chicken:

Meanwhile, under Matt and Rob's overview, the UI definitely IS getting better and better. It's just the renovation process is extremely time-consuming.

jeric_synergy
12-08-2012, 01:39 PM
Here's a philosophical point about MENUS:


Menus HIDE information, by concealing options.

Certainly there are many places where menus are the appropriate UI device for a given task, but I'd say that menus are over-used in the LW interface.

Where there is:

a limited number of options
that does not change,

RADIO BUTTONS might be a better choice for a UI device than a menu.

Besides their slowness of access, menus force the user to reveal information that might be better constantly exposed to the user. For instance, the Falloff options for many LWM tools are, in my opinion, neglected and underused BECAUSE they are concealed within a menu.

How many users even know that a tool's effect can be modulated by a weight map?

If the "Weight Map" Falloff option were continuously on display in a radio button, rather than concealed within a menu, I'm pretty sure more users would be aware of it and using it profitably.

Constant exposure is a key training element: I've been trying to learn C4D and it infuriates me that the hotkeys are not displayed on the buttons themselves (a major LW success), nor even in the (always not-quite-quick-enuf) balloon help.

Menus are appropriate when:

the number of options changes unpredictably (the UI designer can't know how much space to allocate);
the number of options is large;
speed of access is unimportant.

Matt
12-08-2012, 07:57 PM
Lately I've been having to use the RESET menu selection in the Numeric Panel.

Seriously, how much research do we have to dig up before the designers putting *redacted* menus all over the app to slow us down? :cursin:

You don't need to dig up any research Jeric, these things are simply obvious, we just haven't got around to every nook and cranny in LightWave yet.

Erikals can attest to the fact that I have personally fixed some of his requests on the same matter, I've also been fixing many other workflow annoyances that hadn't been addressed by previous teams.

Also, relax, blowing up like this is very unnecessary.

Matt
12-08-2012, 07:59 PM
Translate Plus also has this problem... (gets annoying when you use TP a lot)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExT0e3RHJdU


This tool will be unnecessary when 11.5 comes out.



also the Snap Drag tool...
http://erikalstad.com/LW_11/Snap.png


I fixed this one at your request ages ago, will be in 11.5

jeric_synergy
12-08-2012, 08:15 PM
You guys just don't 'get' hyperbole, do you.

ANYWAY, 11.5 sounds great.

As to things being 'obvious':

even Micro$oft and Apple do dumb s***, so sometimes pointing out the obvious is WELL worthwhile.
If it's so obvious, why did it get done that way in the first place? :chicken:

erikals
12-09-2012, 04:33 PM
If it's so obvious, why did it get done that way in the first place? :chicken:

that itself should be obvious, as there's a gazillion lines to code / things to fix.
a few times things are done in a not optimal way, i would hardly blame anyone for not catching that.
after all, they are not Gods...

so i would just relax a little bit about it...

jeric_synergy
12-09-2012, 05:13 PM
that itself should be obvious, as there's a gazillion lines to code / things to fix.
That doesn't make sense: at the time (LW1.0) were it 'obvious' they would have just done it right.

Obviously, 'obvious' is rubbing me the wrong way.

The LW consistency issue is part and parcel of this: if there were basic principles institutionally followed, like the guidelines for when to use menus in #5 above, the app might be more consistent throughout.

But, this is from the stone-age: both 11.5 with its new tools and 12 with a major revision will exhibit more internal consistancy and best practice UI.

erikals
12-09-2012, 05:30 PM
wonder, is there by the way possible to get this function back?
Lightwave UI - Resetting values
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LBJPbngeM8

this one was fixed in LW11.5 right? (can't recall at the moment)
Lightwave UI - Selection icon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt-1RTgGnWA

erikals
12-09-2012, 05:35 PM
not quite, they didn't have a UI designer back then, the programmer was doing the work.
and some of us me included might as well blame ourselves for not being able to report it over the 10+ past years.

but anyway, all things considered, we all want to make a better Lightwave...

Matt
12-10-2012, 01:20 AM
If it's so obvious, why did it get done that way in the first place? :chicken:
[/LIST]

You need to ask those that are no longer here.

jwiede
12-10-2012, 02:48 AM
You need to ask those that are no longer here.
Probably just more baggage from when displays were much smaller / lower-res. To be fair, though, they did try to address it.

sami
12-10-2012, 03:44 AM
This tool will be unnecessary when 11.5 comes out...

Thank you that's great, however one major point I'd like to make in this discussion, that I'd hope you guys please keep in mind as you further enhance usabilty, the interface and more features:

- that is, when you add a new feature that (in general) fixes or replaces old features, tools, or plugins, would you please, either a) delete the old feature if it is truly no longer needed, OR b) if you insist on keep the old feature, tool, or plugin around for backwards compatibility, can you please, please either cull them or move it to a Legacy Tab or something? Just get them out of the way and let us know there is something better.

I get that you are taking this modularly, and haven't got to every nook and cranny yet and have no doubt you will, but I'm sure you'll agree, that as a user, I shouldn't have to need to be familiar with your technical ChangeLog. :-)

I've got work to do, so, if Weld 2.0 (weld saw pro, or weld saw ex or whatever) is better or doesn't kill UV maps or works with symmetry or whatever, just put it in place of the old one and make a note for us the old one is under a Legacy Tab, if we hate the new one we can customize our menu layout. It's often weird to me that so many functions that are new aren't loaded into the interface by default, and you only randomly find out they exist while digging and could have used this ages ago.

If it's really better and a replacement make it visible. I get you may want to avoid user "New Coke/Classic Coke backlash" (particularly with keyboard assignments - but only change those on major releases with old assignments in shipped preference setting switch), we're getting a lot of tired and crappy plugins and tools (at least in Modeler) that just clutter up things and make it hard to tell what is the best tool available for the job, sometime it's a shipped plugin that is new that isn't even added to the UI at all.

Thanks for your work on the interfaces!

erikals
12-10-2012, 07:46 AM
i think the Split Tool can be removed >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NI1qVhPHi4

the less used ones could be moved to a "more" pulldown?


(btw Sami, can you make it work on white, as white is default? see attachment)

erikals
12-10-2012, 07:55 AM
This tool will be unnecessary when 11.5 comes out.

Awesome :king: didn't know it was a total replacement (or a close match maybe) Eggcellent :chicken:
:hey:

jwiede
12-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Thank you that's great, however one major point I'd like to make in this discussion, that I'd hope you guys please keep in mind as you further enhance usabilty, the interface and more features:

- that is, when you add a new feature that (in general) fixes or replaces old features, tools, or plugins, would you please, either a) delete the old feature if it is truly no longer needed, OR b) if you insist on keep the old feature, tool, or plugin around for backwards compatibility, can you please, please either cull them or move it to a Legacy Tab or something? Just get them out of the way and let us know there is something better.

I get that you are taking this modularly, and haven't got to every nook and cranny yet and have no doubt you will, but I'm sure you'll agree, that as a user, I shouldn't have to need to be familiar with your technical ChangeLog. :-)

I've got work to do, so, if Weld 2.0 (weld saw pro, or weld saw ex or whatever) is better or doesn't kill UV maps or works with symmetry or whatever, just put it in place of the old one and make a note for us the old one is under a Legacy Tab, if we hate the new one we can customize our menu layout. It's often weird to me that so many functions that are new aren't loaded into the interface by default, and you only randomly find out they exist while digging and could have used this ages ago.

If it's really better and a replacement make it visible. I get you may want to avoid user "New Coke/Classic Coke backlash" (particularly with keyboard assignments - but only change those on major releases with old assignments in shipped preference setting switch), we're getting a lot of tired and crappy plugins and tools (at least in Modeler) that just clutter up things and make it hard to tell what is the best tool available for the job, sometime it's a shipped plugin that is new that isn't even added to the UI at all.

Thanks for your work on the interfaces!
:i_agree: 100%, and is needed in both "default" and "Studio Production" menu sets.

erikals
12-10-2012, 11:40 AM
note, as for Weld 2.0 it's not added as i believe it's slightly buggy.

side note, certain tools also have somewhat the same functions and need to become 1 tool...

sami
12-10-2012, 12:39 PM
(btw Sami, can you make it work on white, as white is default? see attachment)

Sorry - mine's a dark interface. What you ask isn't possible unless there is somekind of empahsis setting where the colors are automatic? I just wanted the color for effect to (in theory) make it easier to scan my longwinded post and put a tl;dr in there. I'll try and be more neutral next time. :)

lardbros
12-17-2012, 10:01 AM
It's funny... I work with a few programmers, and while we were trying to make our own Android phone game, i suddenly realised why things in software applications are either slow but look nice, or quick and look crap.

I wanted our interface to work in a certain way, Android didn't have this in it's own API, so our programmer would have had to write his own sliding menu function. (Think it's in there now)... but instead, he fudged it... and it was crap. There were other things we asked for, but again, they'd have to be coded from scratch... SOOOO basically, whatever the artist/technical artist asks for is pretty much ignored by the programmers because they do what they think is logically best... and it's often not! But it's a damn hard struggle for us artistic/creative types to get our voices heard. I'm so glad matt is persevering with it though, as it's making a massive difference!

(As a side note, our programmers are engineers too, so their logical ways of solving problems are often the quickest ways of fixing things... therefore the ugliest! :D )

Ryan Roye
12-17-2012, 12:22 PM
Plenty of layout tools that could use some pruning/hiding as well:

-Most the MD tools under the dynamics tab have been replaced by Clothfx's implementation, though really MDD functions should be in their own category.

-Remove lazypoints; intertia replaces it entirely. (intertia is basically lazypoints with controllable parameters such as weight map/strength)

-Remove JointMorph... no point in keeping it there if you have JointMorphPlus right below it.

Many others... probably too numerous to list here :)