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CruiserMori
11-19-2012, 12:52 AM
It is a pitty, that LW team is still selling LW with 10+ old surface presets :oye: We had to move from LW render to VRay, mainly because of speed and simplicity of scene pre-render preparation. We have no time to play with each surface to find right set-up (quality ans render speed). There is no good quality set of LW shaders presets even for basic materials. We still do all modeling in LW thanks to LWCad.

Do you thing we can expect some improvement(s) from LW team or some good LW artist who will share/sell his presets to help LW?
Without good shader presets we are not able to use LW (even LW11.5+) in our production pipeline :cursin:

jeric_synergy
11-19-2012, 12:57 AM
"Good" is pretty vague: what exactly are the shortcomings in the presets?

CruiserMori
11-19-2012, 01:20 AM
There is no any good quality source of archviz presets we can buy for LW like "optimized" presets for VRay. You just copy, paste and slightly tweak and you can render OK quality in VRay. We have tried KRay but we donīt have time and experience to play with all possible set-ups in the surface node editor. I donīt say it is not possible in LW/Kray but we need to work not experiment.

50one
11-19-2012, 01:38 AM
There is no any good quality source of archviz presets we can buy for LW like "optimized" presets for VRay. You just copy, paste and slightly tweak and you can render OK quality in VRay. We have tried KRay but we donīt have time and experience to play with all possible set-ups in the surface node editor. I donīt say it is not possible in LW/Kray but we need to work not experiment.

Well, to be fair, when it comes to the archviz world and you're not on a "budget" you'll get much faster results with Vray[as you mentioned, more presets, meshes, knowledge base and setup times seems to be faster from my experience(for static images)] plus the importing of various Autodesk meshes as a bonus[most architects use the Autodesk software anyway], I do aggree with there's a lack of good presets built-in, like how I can use some of the presets avaialble in modo, do a little tweaking and the cut down on the setup time.

djwaterman
11-19-2012, 03:18 AM
Who will provide these presets? Who can judge a surface they have made and think it is good enough for all to use? I would gladly do so if I had total confidence that my settings were perfect. We need some knowledgeable authority to review surfaces that are submitted to check they are of a high quality/energy conserving and so on. Preset Central made a go of this, but I don't think it had a judging process to authorize a preset as being of a specific standard. For me that standard has to be realistic and suitable for all lighting situations. I would suggest that a few different lighting scenarios would need to be constructed that these materials could be tested in, so very accurate lighting environments, outdoor, indoor, studio and so on.
Superb dependable presets would be a big deal for Lightwave users, we've never really had them. Arch-Vis Presets aren't worth much if they are not highly accurate, if they look okay but then you discover they don't hold up in some lighting set up, then you're back to tweaking and wasting time, the very situation the preset is meant to avoid.

50one
11-19-2012, 03:37 AM
Hey dj, well that's why the op and myself included mentioned that those prestes are good starting point for tweaking, not a final solution for all your needs, i do aggree that most presets aren't great, but as a starting point this can really speed up your work

CruiserMori
11-19-2012, 04:18 AM
I think we donīt need hundreds of final presets for LW. What I need for my job are good quality presets for standard materials (glass, normal wood, polish wood, ceramic, plastic, concrete, chrome, etc.) in node editor mode where I can tweak few scalar imputs and add some image textures (normal maps, dust, scratches) to finalize it. The most difficult for me is to create this initial set-up. I tried to copy set-up from modo and from Vray but without big success.

probiner
11-19-2012, 05:11 AM
CruiserMori have you tryed preset central. I know it takes sometime for you to filter what's in your interest around there, but maybe it cuts your pain in half or more.
http://www.presetcentral.com/

Cheers

UnCommonGrafx
11-19-2012, 05:37 AM
This speaks more to a lack of resource knowledge.

While it would be great to have what you've requested, hold your breath, there are opportunities out there.

The ifw textures come with presets. http://shaders.org, I believe.

PresetCentral is an exceptional resource for this idea.

Agreed, we could use more. Find the thread that speaks to the tutes the community wants and put in a request for some tutes on working with the presets. Along with, of course, an advanced library to practice with.

50one
11-19-2012, 05:42 AM
Now compare the shaders.org with the sigershop and pretets in modo and you'll get the idea of what some people are talking about;)

RebelHill
11-19-2012, 06:17 AM
glass, normal wood, polish wood, ceramic, plastic, concrete, chrome, etc. in node editor mode where I can tweak few scalar imputs and add some image textures

Use the material nodes... they'll cover ALL those you mention with, as you say, a few tweaks and custom texture maps when required. Plus ofc, each time you make a custom tweaked one, you save it as a preset for yourself for reuse/retweak again later.

UnCommonGrafx
11-19-2012, 06:36 AM
Ah, but you presume I don't.

Suffice it to say, you didn't read all of what I wrote or just cherry picked what was your concern. No matter, you are correct. Edit: correct in, as I wrote above, we need more.


Now compare the shaders.org with the sigershop and pretets in modo and you'll get the idea of what some people are talking about;)

50one
11-19-2012, 06:50 AM
Nothing fancy to be honest but a quick shadow catcher surface, some reflective plastics, some woods maybe some metals and glass just to gt some people up and running in few minutes, rather than hours.

CruiserMori
11-19-2012, 07:29 AM
Nothing fancy to be honest but a quick shadow catcher surface, some reflective plastics, some woods maybe some metals and glass just to gt some people up and running in few minutes, rather than hours.

Yes. That is what I am asking for. Preset central is relatively good source but most of these materials look bad/cheap compare to VRay, Modo standards.

djwaterman
11-20-2012, 08:36 AM
It's true, just a few quality presets of much used materials is all that's needed. Not a giant library.

erikals
11-20-2012, 02:27 PM
check >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?127028-60-favourite-surface-presets&p=1265271&viewfull=1#post1265271

and >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?127028-60-favourite-surface-presets&p=1266949&viewfull=1#post1266949

but yep, better presets from NT would be good...

Tobian
11-20-2012, 03:30 PM
One of the main problems with LW's material system is the lack of an intrinsic UV mapping coordinate system. It allows for MUCH more flexibility, but at the price of ease of use for presets. In many apps if you drop a preset on an object it picks up on that object's 'UV' map and uses that. LW doesn't work like that. We do have 'basic' mapping such as cubic, but when it comes to more advanced presets, such as those that use anisotropy etc, then yeah, it doesn't really work.

Procedurals are good, and indeed the IFW pack is great, but they aren't all ideal and not really a substitute for real image based texturing.

The 'materials' system brought in later on during 9.x is a good idea, but they are not feature complete. None of them supports anisotropy... some kinds of surface are nearly impossible to do neat (thin SSS, colloidal suspensions, translucent plastics etc) so yeah the best results come from really hideously complicated standard nodal trees.

I do think that all of the presets should be upgraded to LW 11 materials and with LCS in mind, (but without it you can end up with some weird results). They should get some higher quality texture assets though, to ship with the app, for architectural stuff.

I's a little bit of a complex issue really!

bobakabob
11-20-2012, 03:48 PM
It's true, just a few quality presets of much used materials is all that's needed. Not a giant library.

Agree, the preset library is out of date compared to rival software. A refresh with new nodal materials would be a real plus. Lightwave's nodal system is a real strength but messing about with nuts and bolts under the hood with pressing deadlines is no fun.

jwiede
11-21-2012, 01:20 AM
Use the material nodes... they'll cover ALL those you mention with, as you say, a few tweaks and custom texture maps when required. Plus ofc, each time you make a custom tweaked one, you save it as a preset for yourself for reuse/retweak again later.
However, as discussed in another thread, even doing something as simple as adding surface dust/grunge to a material-node-based surfaced object actually requires quite a bit of nodal adjustment work for decent-looking, believable results. As another poster already mentioned in this thread, certain material nodes have surprisingly basic omissions, as well, including the lack of decent anisotropy support cited previously.

IMO, the material nodes are a step in the right direction (I see them as prototypes, really), but need significant additional work to be easily used for realistic (iow, non-perfect) production-level surfacing. Sure, a pro can probably knock out the proper nodal adjustments in no time, I'm sure, but for those just beginning with surfacing, or highly limited on time, taking a material node from "pretty-but-too-perfect" to "realistic" isn't as attainable. That's where LW3DG could really help, by providing presets that include full node flows to generate realistic, usable surfaces built around material nodes.