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View Full Version : Is TurbulenceFD part of your workflow?



dspina
10-24-2012, 12:41 PM
TurbulanceFD for LightWave provides voxel-based fluid dynamics, intuitive workflow and offers CPU and GPU optimized processing. Check out TurbulanceFD's list of features at http://www.jawset.com/

Netvudu
10-24-2012, 04:52 PM
Turbulence would be IMHO the best possible addition to Lightwave along with LwCAD or a power compositing app such as Fusion. At FX Animation we own quite a few floating licenses.

Darth Mole
10-24-2012, 06:24 PM
The title of the thread made me vote wrongly. I read the title and clicked on no, thinking I was saying, no it's not part of my workflow, when really I meant yes, I'd love it if it was built into LW. Assuming the upgrade cost wasn't prohibitive, of course.

realgray
10-24-2012, 06:48 PM
The title of the thread made me vote wrongly. I read the title and clicked on no, thinking I was saying, no it's not part of my workflow, when really I meant yes, I'd love it if it was built into LW. Assuming the upgrade cost wasn't prohibitive, of course.

I did the same thing. Put me down as another that one that voted no but would be thrilled to have it as part of a future update.

AbnRanger
10-24-2012, 08:28 PM
I think it would be fantastic. With VPR's ability to preview Volumetric FX, seems to me that that would make LW a very strong, cost-effective VFX solution right out of the box.

geo_n
10-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Yes! Bring in water sims too.
But isn't it too late since we just upgraded to lw 11? For lw 12? Is lw 12 that close to release next year???

m.d.
10-24-2012, 11:51 PM
Ooops
Voted wrong too....
I would have grabbed t4d already....but it is a little pricey....
If there ever is a sale I will grab it immediately

Darth Mole
10-25-2012, 02:10 AM
Ooops
Voted wrong too....
I would have grabbed t4d already....but it is a little pricey....
If there ever is a sale I will grab it immediately

This.

kopperdrake
10-25-2012, 05:11 AM
I've been teetering on the brink of the buy-it-to-play-with chasm for a few months now. My reel needs a mahoosive update and I will buy it for that, I just need the time to work on the reel. If a job popped up where I needed it then I would buy it. I JUST NEED AN EXCUSE!!!

Hail
10-25-2012, 05:20 AM
Would be damn awesome!!! ;)

Snosrap
10-25-2012, 05:25 AM
I did the same thing. Put me down as another that one that voted no but would be thrilled to have it as part of a future update.
Same here!:)

Afalk
10-25-2012, 05:49 AM
I'd love to add TFD to my work flow but cannot afford it -- as an addon w/a nice deal -- I'd LOVE to pick it up, and plan on it -- once the next few real projects come across my desk hehe.

djwaterman
10-25-2012, 08:43 AM
Ofcourse I'd love LW to come with Turbulence, but why would this happen? Why would they do it?

Eagle66
10-25-2012, 12:10 PM
Not at this time: it's difficult and time consuming to figure out what you need for realistic Smoke, Fire, Water, etc. with the (mostly undocumented) FD parmaters: the Shading, Scene Lighting or Render setups?

No realism Tutorials found - no time for try and error.....

bazsa73
10-26-2012, 02:25 AM
Yes! Would be great, maya's fluid is so clumsy and slow and difficult to control. I would like to have TFD being included in LW.

zapper1998
10-26-2012, 09:08 AM
I Love TFD..

Its an awesome plugin..

A Must Have..


:)

nikfaulkner
10-26-2012, 09:51 AM
i'd love it, but cant justify the expense unless a job turns up that requires it

aperezg
10-26-2012, 11:21 AM
Greater tool.
But I think adding this software and others more, LightWave will be so expensive like others 3D packets in the market.

I think TurbulenceFD and LWcad, should continue selling it separately.

Missing the NO in this poll.

Not at this time means, perhaps in the future

I vote NO.

m.d.
10-26-2012, 09:07 PM
anybody interested in attempting a group buy?

if he can shave a bit off the price i am in....
dosn't seem to do any sales

DigitalSorcery8
10-26-2012, 09:18 PM
anybody interested in attempting a group buy?

if he can shave a bit off the price i am in....
dosn't seem to do any sales

Yeah, but right now for me it would have to be a "big bit." :)

Eagle66
10-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Has anyone made realism results with TurbulenceFD - Links or posts of Images/movie welcome...

tuomas
10-29-2012, 02:18 AM
Has anyone made realism results with TurbulenceFD - Links or posts of Images/movie welcome...

I did a few large scale smokepillars like this for general use. You can get some really nice results out of TFD, but it requires patience and some capable hardware.

prometheus
10-29-2012, 02:43 AM
Has anyone made realism results with TurbulenceFD - Links or posts of Images/movie welcome...

Uhhmm...no not quite realism, but it sure can be done, just a matter of time, effort and good comping with live plates I suspect.
Ivé only done test samples for various reasons with demo versions, see my vimeo link and browse through experimental test, but itīs only basic tests really.

An upgrade with lightwave with turbulence would be a good thing, especially if it benefits those who felt a little cheated from the core campaign.

I really like turbulence and have actually mentioned a couple of times that I intend to buy it, however unfortunatly..I just got notified that I loose my job due to lack of work in december, so I have to think
twice..I mean I could probably afford it now actually, but have been waiting for implementation of particle advection, and also, I might need to secure a new job before spending on it, if
I still would have had my job I would have bought it as soon as the particle advection got in there.
It would only be in my hobby workflow though, since I do not work with these things or have andy direct need or job for it.

http://vimeo.com/35832026
http://vimeo.com/35528035
http://vimeo.com/19305733
http://vimeo.com/26555172

Michael

prometheus
10-29-2012, 03:00 AM
I did a few large scale smokepillars like this for general use. You can get some really nice results out of TFD, but it requires patience and some capable hardware.

Very nice and promising, just throw in a good background plate and a whole lot of full frames for the whole simulation, but we all do short preview renders donīt we:)

erikals
10-29-2012, 04:08 AM
I did a few large scale smokepillars like this for general use. You can get some really nice results out of TFD, but it requires patience and some capable hardware.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108838&d=1351498499

dang good! :hey:

what rendertime?...

prometheus
10-29-2012, 04:09 AM
dang good! :hey:

what rendertime?...

Im More curious about simulation time? and real scale of the smoke pillar, voxel size?

erikals
10-29-2012, 04:23 AM
yeah, i meant render time / sim time :]

tuomas
10-29-2012, 04:36 AM
what rendertime?...

At 1080x1920 a few minutes for the first frames, 2-3 hours towards the end. Simulating all 760 frames took a couple of nights on a quad core i7.

erikals
10-29-2012, 04:54 AM
thanks, thought it was heavy ;]
not that bad though,... considering the resolution

p.s. this might be of interest to some >
http://ae.tutsplus.com/tutorials/vfx/12-hd-smoke-plume-simulations-and-compositing-tutorial-tutsplus-premium/
12 3D stock footage videos of smoke simulation > $19

tuomas
10-29-2012, 05:08 AM
I should have mentioned that I broke the render into three passes (key, fill and fire) to give compositors a chance to tweak things. I also rendered the same sim from four different angles to produce four different pillars of smoke. When you spend ages simulating a fluid, you want to make the most of it :)

prometheus
10-29-2012, 05:30 AM
At 1080x1920 a few minutes for the first frames, 2-3 hours towards the end. Simulating all 760 frames took a couple of nights on a quad core i7.

Thanks for the info, but can you share what scale (height) in meters the pillar is at itīs final stage? and perhaps voxel size? and was the whole simulation done
with gpu or cpu?

Michael

tuomas
10-29-2012, 05:40 AM
The adaptive container was about 30 meters in height with voxel size of 30mm. Simulation was done with CPU.

prometheus
10-29-2012, 05:53 AM
The adaptive container was about 30 meters in height with voxel size of 30mm. Simulation was done with CPU.

Thanks, Iīm wondering if that could be enhanced a lot in sim time if you would have used Gpu, but of course..I donīt know if you had acess to nvidia cuda cards to do that, or
if the size of the simulated cache is to much to handle for the gpu?

I always use gpu and nvidia gtx 480 card for the simulations, but havenīt tried such huge sims so Im not sure if turbulence would swap to cpu at any stage.

Cheers, Iīm gonna start work a little more with turbulence soon I suspect, got to fix my desktop computer first though, my laptop isnīt suitable for this.

Michael

tuomas
10-29-2012, 10:11 AM
Thanks, Iīm wondering if that could be enhanced a lot in sim time if you would have used Gpu, but of course..I donīt know if you had acess to nvidia cuda cards to do that, or
if the size of the simulated cache is to much to handle for the gpu?
The sims I work with tend to be too big for my poor GPU to handle. Might be different if I had one dedicated to the job though.

By the way, the 760 frame cache for that smoke takes about a terabyte of hard drive space :)

erikals
10-29-2012, 10:39 AM
"...a terabyte of hard drive space"

8/

prometheus
10-29-2012, 11:14 AM
"...a terabyte of hard drive space"

8/

yeah..a bit scary, but I guess that is the bitter truth everywere for fluids in large scale and high res.
would have to sim against my external seagate 2 tb drive in such case, or invest in larger harddrives, but that will have to wait until
I turn pro with these things:) thereīs a compress cache option in turbulence that might help.

I would like to have solid state drives for faster cache of the simulations, but I havenīt seen any solid state drives that big, And the cost of that ..huh.

for my experiments and samples anyway, I just canīt stand go back to cpu simulations... my cpu isnīt that bad, but itīs a snail compared to nvidia gtx 480.

Michael

Netvudu
10-30-2012, 07:48 AM
The large disk space is unavoidable. You can compress the sim and it will occupy much less space at the cost of some reading speed. Also, if you donīt store velocity you will save a whole lot of disk space as you are disregarding vector data (3 components, triple the size), but you will loose the chance to apply motion blur, which is quite important.

It is a problem indeed.Thatīs why good sims tend to be reused now and again, just showing them from different angles or different times.
I know that "Captain America" used 5 huge sims for the whole movie. Itīs almost impossible though to notice the repetition.

erikals
10-30-2012, 08:17 AM
I know that "Captain America" used 5 huge sims for the whole movie. Itīs almost impossible though to notice the repetition.

cool info! :]

it sounds like a smart way to go about it for sure.
i think i would skip the velocity data though for the scenes that just had slow-smoke in the background.
like this kind of style >

http://www.alaska-in-pictures.com/data/media/20/burning-oil_4516.jpg

Netvudu
10-30-2012, 09:30 AM
yep. For slow moving smoke itīs also easier to get a "good enough" motion blur at compositing.

Philbert
10-30-2012, 10:05 AM
I think i recall that they used TFD on The Walking Dead. Correct?

sadkkf
10-30-2012, 12:57 PM
I did a few large scale smokepillars like this for general use. You can get some really nice results out of TFD, but it requires patience and some capable hardware.

Wow. Very nice!

m.d.
10-30-2012, 11:53 PM
if anybody is interested in a group buy pm me....
looks like using the online store if you buy 2 licenses you get 25 euros off, 3 licenses 50 off, 4....75 off, 5 100 off...

so i am pretty sure if we could get even 4 or 5 people we could probably get in on these prices....

geo_n
11-29-2012, 10:56 PM
if anybody is interested in a group buy pm me....
looks like using the online store if you buy 2 licenses you get 25 euros off, 3 licenses 50 off, 4....75 off, 5 100 off...

so i am pretty sure if we could get even 4 or 5 people we could probably get in on these prices....

Where you able to do this? Is it allowed in eula?
I'm looking at tfd for a project though the new lw 11 fbx is working pretty well with matching things from lw and 3dmax that I was able to fumefx just fine. But using tfd at home would be nice.

OlaHaldor
11-29-2012, 11:42 PM
No it's not part of my workflow. Yet. But I have purchased it. I see it as an investment, and now I'm spending some time almost every day to test things. It can be anything. Making small and basic scenes with simple geometry which will be thrown at a wall and break into several pieces, and then emit smoke. Or flames. Or both. The goal is of course to make it look good, if not realistic.

It does take time. Loads of it! But it's great fun, and I can't wait to get going with a real project. Hopefully I'll know my way around the plug-in and get to the desired results quicker.
And that's something we really need. Good video tutorials to cover the basics, and then move on to more advanced stuff. Make it a project based course where we get a tracked shot, and the goal is to cover something with smoke or an explosion or whatever...



I got a GTX680 4GB. I can tell you, it's way faster than using the CPU (mine is a i5 2500K, so it might be the bottleneck even though the sim is GPU). But up-res will use CPU no matter what.
The GTX680 can cope with quite a bit of texels, but it will go out of RAM, and then swap to the CPU. Haven't done any big simulations as tuomas mentions.


As for sims taking tons of space; get a RAID. I'm probably spoiled on it but it's possible to build cheap RAIDS. Yes, it will indeed cost a bit, but it could be worse. I can't speak of USB3 or ThunderBolt as I don't use those. But eSATA and miniSAS are available in different price ranges. Get a controller card, preferably with four ports. (Don't know if miniSAS exists with more than two though).

There are a few interesting enclosures for eSATA RAIDS. There's one that can hold 8 HDDs shared over two eSATA cables. It requires that the controller card supports Port Multiplier.
But think of it. You could essentially build a RAID with 16 HDDs then! 3TBx16 HDDs in RAID0 is 48TB. But you'd wanna go with RAID5 or 6 for security as well as speed, with a compromise in less space. But it would still be about 40TB worth of space for anything you'd like. :)

The price for a DIY RAID like that? Less than $4000
Take half of that, and you got yourself 25TB in RAID0 or 20TB in RAID5...

Pre-built RAIDs with rack mounts and all will cost you double or triple that for the same amount (or sometimes less) disk space.



tuomas, would you be interested in making/sharing a scene for benchmarking?

m.d.
11-29-2012, 11:44 PM
On the site if you enter 5 licenses you get $100 off each....
I'm just assuming if we approach him with 5 customers we'll get the same....

I'm not suggesting to cheat the license....just offer him 5 customers he wouldn't otherwise have

jasonwestmas
11-30-2012, 12:21 AM
Lightwave Liquid/Fluid advantage pack LW+Turbulence+Realflow ;)

prometheus
11-30-2012, 12:43 AM
Lightwave Liquid/Fluid advantage pack LW+Turbulence+Realflow ;)

Thatīs the kind of deal offer I would like to see from Newtek, aimed at those customers who bought in to core, and for us who didnīt get any Poser-lightwave deal:)

Now realflow might be off the chart prizewise but..something along that line.

Michael

erikals
11-30-2012, 12:46 AM
On the site if you enter 5 licenses you get $100 off each....
I'm just assuming if we approach him with 5 customers we'll get the same....

I'm not suggesting to cheat the license....just offer him 5 customers he wouldn't otherwise have

but how many went in on it? i'm interested, maybe i can pull it off...

as you say, if 5 get in on it the price is €300 instead of €400
if 10 get in on it the price is €250 instead of €400

tuomas
11-30-2012, 02:35 AM
tuomas, would you be interested in making/sharing a scene for benchmarking?

I've been meaning to write a tutorial or two but haven't found the time yet. Maybe after the current project wraps up in couple of weeks.

ianr
11-30-2012, 05:25 AM
Yes Please Tuomas,
That would be well recieved i'm sure
We all look forward too it for Xmas?

Oedo 808
11-30-2012, 05:47 AM
Yes Please Tuomas,
That would be well recieved i'm sure
We all look forward too it for Xmas?

That's too generous, why not suggest he drop all work and provide it this weekend?

Ryste3d
12-01-2012, 04:52 AM
Voted wrong too.... But yes to integration with LW

ianr
12-01-2012, 09:50 AM
Oedo,
Don't you know Lightwave Xmas means July!

jasonwestmas
12-02-2012, 07:19 AM
Oedo,
Don't you know Lightwave Xmas means July!

nah, more like march, yeah definitely march.

Oedo 808
12-02-2012, 02:00 PM
Oedo,
Don't you know Lightwave Xmas means July!

Ahh of course, I didn't realize you meant LightWave Xmas, let's hope Tuomas doesn't either, I won't tell! In which case I would agree with jasonwestmas that it is March!

By the way, is jasonwestmas a celebration of the birth of Jason West? Sounds like an intriguing possibility for a new religion.

jasonwestmas
12-02-2012, 03:26 PM
By the way, is jasonwestmas a celebration of the birth of Jason West? Sounds like an intriguing possibility for a new religion.

lol, only if I can actually predict the future. I wouldn't want the responsibility and eyeballing. :D What is strange however is that my last name refers to the birthplace (west of the Mass river) of one of my ancestors in Holland. So I was told.