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Dillon
10-23-2012, 01:43 PM
I could use a little help.

The last version of LW I used was 7.6. I took the leap and went with 11, but now I'm experiencing an issue I don't understand.

When I reposition an item in layout with a keyframe already present, it doesn't alter that keyframe, it instead creates another keyframe at the same frame. I have "fractional keyframes" turned off in the preferences editor.

I'm quite confused as to why this is happening. Anyone else experience this?

Thanks

Dillon

ShadowMystic
10-23-2012, 01:52 PM
Without your scene file people will have trouble telling what you are doing wrong. My guess would be you're working with a large range of keyframes and your slider is not exactly on the previously set key frame. I can't be more specific without looking at the file.

Dillon
10-23-2012, 02:01 PM
Thanks for your quick response.

I'll have to force the issue on a new scene file, can't share the one I'm working on. I am using the "previous/next" keyframe buttons at the bottom right of the timeline to jump between keyframes. Instead of editing the keyframe I intend to edit, it creates a new one in exactly the same spot, and yes, fractional keyframes are turned off in the preferences editor.

I wonder if it might have anything to do with scale? The scene is kilometers (flying camera over a neighborhood).

Thanks again.

nickdigital
10-23-2012, 02:04 PM
See if you can replicate it on a scene with just a null and then post that.

If you select your keys in the GE and hit "Q" do they snap to a point in time? Did you scale your animation and now have keyframes just slightly off from where they should be?

Dillon
10-23-2012, 02:57 PM
Here's the stripped down scene (removed objects and other stuff). I'm experiencing this on the camera. If you open the graph editor at the current frame, you'll see what happened when I chose to edit the existing keyframe, and instead got a new keyframe.

Fractional keyframes is turned off. I'm baffled.

Thanks for any help you can give!

Dillon


See if you can replicate it on a scene with just a null and then post that.

If you select your keys in the GE and hit "Q" do they snap to a point in time? Did you scale your animation and now have keyframes just slightly off from where they should be?

nickdigital
10-23-2012, 03:04 PM
You have fractional keyframes. Just because you turn them off that doesn't mean the keyframe isn't sitting at a fractional spot. If you turn it on and go into GE and hover over a keyframe you'll see your keyframes are just slightly off of a whole keyframe. Select all your keyframes in the GE and hit "Q". That'll quantize them to a whole keyframe.

Dillon
10-23-2012, 03:16 PM
Hmm. Thanks for your feedback. I'm not understanding. I tested this out, and hopefully get you to experience the same weirdness.

If you have an extra moment, I hope that you could check out frame 93 for the camera. The keyframe is exactly at 93 in the GE (indicated by selecting and looking at the frame readout).

I made sure to use the previous/next keyframe to get to the keyframe in the timeline, and then reposition the camera. A new keyframe is created, instead of editing the one currently there. When I inspect the new keyframe, it is also located exactly at frame 93. So now I have two keyframes exactly at frame 93 (according to the GE readout when I select each point in the GE).

Edited to add: More weirdness; when I hover the mouse over the keyframe, it says its on frame 92. But selecting says its on frame 93.

So I move the camera and check what happened in the GE. Now, when I hover the mouse over the keyframe at frame 93, there is no popup at all. But I can still select it, and it says its at frame 93. Visually, on the GE, they're both at frame 93, not 92.

Q does quantize the keyframe to the nearest whole keyframe. Thanks for making this suggestion. I think early on in building the scene, I did use scale keys to retime movement. Is there a way to avoid the fractional stuff when using the GE to retime / scale movements?

Thanks again!

Dillon

nickdigital
10-23-2012, 03:31 PM
It looks like it's at 93 but technically it's not. I suppose this is where LW could be better at user feedback. This is what I see in the GE when I turn fractional frames on. Your keyframe is at 92.999. Not 93. So when you're editing in Layout you are making a new keyframe at 93. So now you have two keyframes really close to each other when you expected to be editing the one you framed to in Layout.

To fix this, select all your keyframes in the GE and hit the "q" key to quantize them. It'll round up/round down your keyframes to the next whole frame.

In the GE you can use the "3" to toggle between fractional and non-fractional. Do that while hovering your mouse over one of your keyframes. You'll see the value in the pop-up change. Unfortunately this value doesn't change in the Frame field in the GE. Just the mouse hover over.

- - - Updated - - -


Is there a way to avoid the fractional stuff when using the GE to retime / scale movements?


Whenever I scale animation I just remember to select my keyframes and hit "q". :hey:

Dillon
10-23-2012, 03:53 PM
Thank you very much for your insight, Nick. It's been quite a long while since I used LW, and I'd forgotten about some of these annoying quirks.

I'll just have to remember to quantize my keyframes after doing any scaling operation for retiming.

Thanks again.

Dillon


It looks like it's at 93 but technically it's not. I suppose this is where LW could be better at user feedback. This is what I see in the GE when I turn fractional frames on. Your keyframe is at 92.999. Not 93. So when you're editing in Layout you are making a new keyframe at 93. So now you have two keyframes really close to each other when you expected to be editing the one you framed to in Layout.

To fix this, select all your keyframes in the GE and hit the "q" key to quantize them. It'll round up/round down your keyframes to the next whole frame.

In the GE you can use the "3" to toggle between fractional and non-fractional. Do that while hovering your mouse over one of your keyframes. You'll see the value in the pop-up change. Unfortunately this value doesn't change in the Frame field in the GE. Just the mouse hover over.

- - - Updated - - -



Whenever I scale animation I just remember to select my keyframes and hit "q". :hey:

dwburman
10-26-2012, 02:58 PM
I've fought this recently in a scene where I'm pretty sure I either didn't scale the times, or I scaled the times and quantized the keys. I didn't have time to track the problem down for a bug report, though.

You can also quantize the keys in the Scene / Dope Editor.

Click on the space in the upper left corner of the dope sheet (to the left of the first keyframe) to select all the keys in the scene (or select the keys you want to quantize using another selection method)

Then right-click in the highlighted area and pick Selection > Quantize from the context menu.

nickdigital
10-26-2012, 03:28 PM
Did you change the fps?

djwaterman
10-27-2012, 01:07 AM
Wow, so much to know, like how'd you even figure out to click in such an obscure place to multi-select keys.

jwiede
10-27-2012, 11:20 AM
These kinds of cases really highlight situations where Lightwave should be providing more "guidance" to users. If the user turns off "fractional frames", then if there are fractional frames present, LW should mention that (and ideally, give users the choice of quantizing all existing keyframes). There are lots of situations like this whereupon user changes to settings, LW could provide the user information at that point along with guidance as to what action would efficiently resolve the conflict. Doing so would prevent easily-solvable issues from turning into time-consuming troubleshooting efforts later, boosting user efficiency.

dwburman
10-28-2012, 12:15 AM
Wow, so much to know, like how'd you even figure out to click in such an obscure place to multi-select keys.
I don't remember exactly. I may have thought to try it after figuring out that you can select a column or row by clicking on the space at the start of the column or row. I may have figured that out by working with a spreadsheet app like excel, though it's more likely that I clicked on one of those spaces accidentally. :)