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khan973
10-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Hey, I know this has been brought so many times!
Is there a logical / technical reason for not having a lattice tool even in 3rd Party?
It is a very very useful stuff and I can't understand why we don't have yet a reliable solution (please don't point me out bones or joint solutions).
I am trying to make it with nodes but it's big headaches in perspective and I'm not good enough with deforming nodes to achieve my Goal.

I am pretty sure though that we could do that with some of Denis Pontonnier's Nodes.
When I see what he has done with the Spline stuff in few days, I have Faith :)

How do you guys handle situations wher Lattice tools would be needed? Morphs? Bones?

nickdigital
10-17-2012, 11:03 AM
I've done a crude one with the morph through bones trick.

jasonwestmas
10-17-2012, 11:11 AM
It's because there is no deformer stack most likely. Latticess and other deformer tools need a system in place to work correctly. I have not seen much of a system for piling on deformers.

erikals
10-17-2012, 01:07 PM
How do you guys handle situations where Lattice tools would be needed? Morphs? Bones?

yep. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junzMov8DMc

erikals
10-17-2012, 01:18 PM
in 32bit PC, you can use the FI Deform Follower plugin can work as a Lattice, pretty cool >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdzYCKT9An4

hrgiger
10-17-2012, 01:49 PM
Lattice would be an incredibly useful modeling tool in existing modeler, stack or none. I've only been asking for one forever.

erikals
10-17-2012, 02:23 PM
in Modeler i guess the Spline Guide could be used, at times...
http://youtu.be/5rst9mn6C0I

until Lattice comes around... Zzz...

hrgiger
10-17-2012, 04:37 PM
I've used spline guide but its no comparison to a 3D lattice.

khan973
10-18-2012, 05:42 AM
Thanks Erikals, I've been following all your videos for a long time ;)
What I don't understand is how come Effector works, it's also a Deformer that has to deal with other deformations of the object.
Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question but I'm having a hard time understanding why it can't work on top of all deformations.

geo_n
10-18-2012, 06:01 AM
Lets request it from denis. He made the spline deformer easily(maybe)
He could do this I'm sure for layout.
For modelling lattice there's one made by polytopoly.

jasonwestmas
10-18-2012, 06:14 AM
The stuff in the deform tab can work together if they were designed that way.

erikals
10-18-2012, 08:09 AM
What I don't understand is how come Effector works, it's also a Deformer that has to deal with other deformations of the object.

Thanks for watching :]

regarding how the deformer works, i'm not sure, i thought the effect would be hard to pull off...
but maybe DPont would know, the functions kind of reminds of the Layout Boolean plugin he made...

stevenpalomino
10-18-2012, 08:16 AM
If I ever learn to program for LW this is the first thing I'd write.. bummer someone hasn't done it yet.. this would be super useful not only for layout but for modeler too. It'd be great to be able to shift things around and then "freeze" and drop another FFD.. *Sigh* oh well.. Would that need a re-write on lightwave's half?

erikals
10-18-2012, 08:34 AM
For modelling lattice there's one made by polytopoly.

sort of... the demo is limited to 400 vertices, and it can only use a box object, no custom object...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjQPdvMz4UQ ...and there is no way to buy the full version... :/

erikals
10-18-2012, 08:36 AM
*Sigh* oh well.. Would that need a re-write on lightwave's half?

Lattice for Layout, according to Sensei, to do it properly, yes.
not sure about Modeler...

i personally don't care if it's a hack though, as long as it works...

stevenpalomino
10-18-2012, 09:01 AM
...I personally don't care if it's a hack though, as long as it works...
Agreed. It'd still be super useful. Would definitely help doing morphs for facial stuff or just modeling speed up stuff.

JoePoe
10-19-2012, 04:03 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here. :stumped:
No doubt a lattice tool is a good idea, especially for Layout.

But, in Modeler how about using the standard move tool with a Radial or a Point Radial falloff (my personal preference... the rmb brush size change is a lot friendlier)?

More control in a lattice tool? Symmetry? etc?

erikals
10-19-2012, 04:22 PM
for Modeler i wouldn't personally use it that much, but for CA cartoon animation i would've used it a lot.

it's true what you say about those alternative tools already available, but at times they can be limited.

to put it this way, a Lattice tool in Modeler would be good, but a Lattice tool in Layout would be awesome.   :]

jeric_synergy
10-19-2012, 05:27 PM
With no stack, a lattice tool in Modeler just seems redundant.

In Layout, very useful. I'm still wondering why interactive Bone cages wouldn't work.

geo_n
10-19-2012, 08:24 PM
sort of... the demo is limited to 400 vertices, and it can only use a box object, no custom object...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjQPdvMz4UQ ...and there is no way to buy the full version... :/

Ah I don't use the demo ;)
Hopefully NT works on a native one especially for layout. I recently had a problem trying to animate a characters eyes that wasn't perfectly oval so the scale trick wouldn't work. A lattice would have helped even without a stack in layout.

erikals
10-19-2012, 09:03 PM
agh.. wrong thread...

hrgiger
10-21-2012, 12:01 PM
With no stack, a lattice tool in Modeler just seems redundant.



A stack is not needed at all for a lattice tool in modeler to be useful. A lattice is incredibly useful for taking an already existing model and adjusting its overall size, form or dimension or conforming it to fit alongside another object.

jasonwestmas
10-21-2012, 02:11 PM
With no stack, a lattice tool in Modeler just seems redundant.

In Layout, very useful. I'm still wondering why interactive Bone cages wouldn't work.

You need a deformer stack because that permits flexible tools to be combined additively or or subtractively whatever math you want to throw at it. Bone and joint/skin deformers being one kind of deformer tools available. . . The way that bones deform objects is quite different from a "deformer object" that can take on the shape of anything such as a lattice or geometry cage which is just another kind of lattice. Bones aren't designed to do what a cage can do no matter how they are parented or scaled mainly because of their capsule shape/area of influence.

Surrealist.
10-21-2012, 03:19 PM
Something perhaps useful in the mix in some way is Metalink. If you parent the high Res mesh to a low rez cage you can apply metalink to the high res object and it will take the deformations from the cage if you add soft dynamics like cloth to the cage object. Once the dynamics are added you have access to the Edit FX tab. Use the edit button and deform the points of the cage. I think you have to calculate something first. But it is a workable method for some things, a tad limited but it works pretty much like a lattice. Save trans and load into modeler.

erikals
10-21-2012, 03:40 PM
yep, or FI Deform Follower, and then save the freezed mesh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdzYCKT9An4 (32bit PC only)

Surrealist.
10-21-2012, 07:58 PM
Yeah that looks pretty cool. I did not even look at the link before. But that looks like a good lattice tool. :)

jeric_synergy
10-21-2012, 08:31 PM
The way that bones deform objects is quite different from a "deformer object" that can take on the shape of anything such as a lattice or geometry cage which is just another kind of lattice. Bones aren't designed to do what a cage can do no matter how they are parented or scaled mainly because of their capsule shape/area of influence.
Yeah, that's what I don't get: what's to keep a coder from building a cage of bones that does the same thing?

I mean, Larry says over and over "bones are deformers", it's his mantra.

jeric_synergy
10-21-2012, 08:39 PM
A stack is not needed at all for a lattice tool in modeler to be useful. A lattice is incredibly useful for taking an already existing model and adjusting its overall size, form or dimension or conforming it to fit alongside another object.
How are any of these things different from having the other object in the background?

I think maybe that's not such a good example: touting a modeler lattice deformer as an advanced selection type in Modeler would sell me better than this particular example.

khan973
10-22-2012, 11:07 AM
With Lattice, you could have a tiny hole and make a cartoon character slide in there conforming smoothly and in an animated way.
I haven't seen any technique being able to do that.
As long as the fake lattice is tied more or less to the object, it works but when the object has to pass through it or so, any technique gets useless.

erikals
10-22-2012, 11:18 AM
saw a a technique doing just that some time ago in LW, it was a render of a Porsche going through a hole. i think the effect was done using just a simple deformer. that's not the same as lattice, but for that single task, you could try that technique.

jasonwestmas
10-22-2012, 12:09 PM
Yeah, that's what I don't get: what's to keep a coder from building a cage of bones that does the same thing?

I mean, Larry says over and over "bones are deformers", it's his mantra.

Sure but the area of influence of the deformer is what counts. If you use geometry to deform another piece of geometry you have a CAGE deformer. Bones don't have that level of flexibility to influence the surface area unless you really want to add hundreds of bones to get the same level of influence but not nearly in the same kind of way as something like a shrink wrap or object influence. . .These are cage deformers and just work differently when deforming a mesh.

Then you need a way to animate the cage on a vertex level.

jeric_synergy
10-22-2012, 12:18 PM
With Lattice, you could have a tiny hole and make a cartoon character slide in there conforming smoothly and in an animated way.

That's one of the oldest LW tricks in the book: you do it w/bone chains.

Surrealist.
10-22-2012, 12:32 PM
The ability to do this is already in LightWave clearly. It is just a matter of anyone with the interest to develop it. You can animate points in LightWave, though the current tools to do that are very limiting.

The larger problem is the separation of Layout and Modeler. That's a sore subject.

erikals
10-22-2012, 12:49 PM
That's one of the oldest LW tricks in the book: you do it w/bone chains.

or a deformer...

jeric_synergy
10-22-2012, 06:01 PM
or a deformer...
Oh yeah, I forgot about those. It'd be....::launch layout:: .... actually, I'm not sure any of those fit the bill. Deform: Pole, maybe.

I'm too full of cough medicine to figure this out.....

geo_n
10-22-2012, 08:20 PM
As I said in my previous post, I use a lattice in other soft for cartoon eye with irregular shape and animating it is a breeze and still keep the irregular shape and no pop out or wierd squinting. I did it in lw but there's a whole lot of steps to do it involving metalink and its not worth it. Johny Gordon's eye trick only works on oval eyes. Only way is a true lattice like this. Super easy and clean with true lattice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ozlmgvesc

If you don't understand one of the issue this illustrates it well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZZxRoAauTg

Surrealist.
10-25-2012, 11:20 AM
Nice tutorial on Blender Lattice.

Reminds me how simple things are in Blender.

erikals
10-25-2012, 11:38 AM
Lattice is very nice in Blender.

jeric_synergy
11-08-2012, 03:13 PM
So, I'm reading a VERY old CA book, and it says "Lightwave has a variant of lattice deformation, called 'Metamation'....." The illustrations look very lattice-y.

I only vaguely remember this term. What happened to it?

XswampyX
11-08-2012, 03:23 PM
From the manual. :hey:

Metamation: Metaform Shaper and MetaformTarget- Legacy Tools

Metamation was designed to make organic and natural-looking character animation easier. It letís you work with a lower polygon-countobject to set up your animation. This object can be manipulated with bones or other deformation tools and is smoothed by metaforming, just before rendering.

Note: These tools have been made obsolete since LightWave 6.0 and are included only to work with older scene file.

jasonwestmas
11-08-2012, 04:00 PM
SockMonkey is the beginnings of a lattice deformer too but has too many limitations to really consider it imo. In the end I want to be able to create Vmaps for these tools inside of layout, not modeler. It's too time consuming the way things are now.

erikals
11-08-2012, 11:58 PM
Metamation looked good, pretty much like metalink, but realtime...

but one thing i wonder is if the algorithm only worked if the bones is located in the lowcage object...
hmm...

(same thing with FI's Deform Follower, need to check...)

jeric_synergy
11-09-2012, 01:35 AM
wow, still trying to remain compatible with pre 6.0?

I think they can let that one slide.

Areyos Alektor
11-09-2012, 03:34 AM
It's the MetaNurbs but now there is the SubPatch this is the MetaNurbs but fully integrated so no need to freeze or plugin to manipulate/render.

The idea behind the MetaNurbs is Lattice Deformation.

The Metaforming this is what happens when you set the "Order Subdivision" in the "Object Properties" Panel.

Now this isn't the only thing considered obsolete that can make service as Natural shaders, MetaEdges, MetaBalls, Create Skin, etc...