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digitalimagery
10-10-2012, 04:41 PM
I've made great strides using the rounding tool but what's the secret to getting a round edge on the inner edge of a cylinder with a hole? I keep getting that standard Rounder warning.
I'm sure it's really basic. Any tuts available on this? The object I submitted on the original thread is still being a problem child. I suspect it's because it has holes as well.

Thanks.
DI

Kuzey
10-10-2012, 05:13 PM
Have you tired cutting that n-gon into quads first?

I haven't played with rounder..but that's where I'd start.

Kuzey

probiner
10-10-2012, 05:23 PM
"holy" concave n-gon!

Just kill it and bridge the 2 open edges loops. Voil, quads that will make rounder work.

Cheers

Snosrap
10-10-2012, 05:40 PM
Rounder isn't all that great, but instead of just telling you to run out and get LWCad I've attached a short video showing how you would need to do to make that object. First off - Rounder has issues with boolean objects. You need to think of other ways to get holes in objects. In this video I've "Rounded" both ends of the cylinder - notice I had to do one side at a time because of Rounders limitations. I then beveled the two ends and used bridge to make the hole. I then went back and use Rounder to chamfer the edges of the hole - again one side at a time. :) Bottom line - Rounder isn't all that great. :D Check out the video here.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQhYavcgcxE

zardoz
10-10-2012, 06:36 PM
actually if you select the exterior edges first, apply rounder, then select the inner edges and apply rounder it works perfectly. with the merged ngon or with quads. don't select the exterior and inner edges and apply rounder at the same time, this way you get poop.

Snosrap
10-10-2012, 06:53 PM
Yep - that too.

jasonwestmas
10-10-2012, 07:10 PM
Get Lightwave CAD.

Snosrap
10-10-2012, 08:18 PM
Yep - that too.

digitalimagery
10-10-2012, 09:19 PM
That works with square objects but for whatever reason not with this.
Thanks for the suggestion.
DI


Have you tired cutting that n-gon into quads first?

I haven't played with rounder..but that's where I'd start.

Kuzey

digitalimagery
10-10-2012, 09:23 PM
Thank you Snosrap, I'll try that.
DI

- - - Updated - - -

That's exactly what I'm doing, outer edge on one side, then the other (as attached( but when I go to the inner edge I get the warning.
DI


actually if you select the exterior edges first, apply rounder, then select the inner edges and apply rounder it works perfectly. with the merged ngon or with quads. don't select the exterior and inner edges and apply rounder at the same time, this way you get poop.

digitalimagery
10-10-2012, 09:26 PM
Sorry, somewhat new, is that a plugin or an Application?
DI


Get Lightwave CAD.

jasonwestmas
10-10-2012, 10:42 PM
Sorry, somewhat new, is that a plugin or an Application?
DI

http://www.wtools3d.com/

Plugins. . .It's like having the other half of modeler installed for you. Kind of like how messiah is with Layout except you can still do everything inside the modeler environment/UI with LWCAD.

JoePoe
10-10-2012, 11:08 PM
I was able to round all four edge loops with ONE rounder command!... on both the poly and the Ngon version. See attached.

You just need to make sure that any edges connecting the loops you want rounded have a break in them. On the all quad model a quick band saw is all you need.
In the case of your Ngon model you must remember to include a break that one little edge in the middle of the Ngon. You can delete the extra point after the round if you want.

Oh, and don't forget to first MERGE POINTS after your boolean!! :)

Snosrap
10-11-2012, 11:57 AM
JoePoe, you are exactly right. And thats why Rounder sucks. :D To be sure, rounding and chamfering even in solid based apps such as Inventor can be problematic, but Rounder is just not reliable - especially for a beginner getting into LW. I'd like NT to fix the issues, but in the mean time if one can afford LWCad that is the "fix". LWCad offers so much to Modeler and their Mass Round tool is only a small portion of what it is capable of.

zardoz
10-11-2012, 04:17 PM
also in this specific object you could just select the top and bottom polygons and use multibevel to get the same result.

digitalimagery
10-16-2012, 11:01 AM
108554Thanks to all the great info. I did manage to solve my problem on the cylindrical shape by checking the points info, seems there were several that needed welding together. I'm aware of knifing across certain surfaces and being selective on which points you need to get the desired result but I'm still struggling with this odd shaped thing (last part of my model I can't seem to get rounded or beveled. Can anyone check the point selections and tell me if there is something there that would cause the problem and how to fix it? I notice there are a ton of 3 point polys - is that the problem? Thanks for all the great advice. As for buying LWCAD, probably not in the cards, work for a company that doesn't really appreciate 3D like "we" all do. Not interested in spending money on things that don't affect the bottom line (bean counters). Wink.

Much Grass (abreviated Espaniol)
DI

digitalimagery
10-16-2012, 11:03 AM
Crap, the info window was missing on my screen capture. This was intended to be included on my last post.

Thanks Again!
DI

Amurrell
10-16-2012, 04:14 PM
What you show there isn't 3 point polys but rather points that are associated with 3, 4 and >4 polygons. In other words if you had a plane divided into four squares the vertex in the middle would read as 4 polygons the points that rest between the corners of the plane would be 2 polygons and the corner verticies as 1 polygon under the point statistics panel.

As a side note, I wasn't sure if you were trying to attach your file to your post, but it didn't make it.

digitalimagery
10-16-2012, 05:15 PM
I hadn't attached it previously but it's there now. I'm using 4 levels of rounding at 10 mm (to match the rounding I was successful at).

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thank you
DI

Snosrap
10-16-2012, 10:32 PM
I found some two point polys in your "hinge". Deleting those did not allow "Rounder" to work with this object. After mucking around with it I was never able to get to work. "Mass Round" from LWCad did a decent job, but I still ran into issues. If your company won't get you LWCad you may want to just learn how to build these types of models with SubD's. I was able to make this in about 10 minutes.

probiner
10-17-2012, 03:30 AM
I'll keep pandering Catmull-Clark edge weight so I keep reminding NT, that needs to be fixed :D

So, you could use Multishift Inset, Subdivide it and call it done if polycount is not a great issue.

I used Multishift on each surface (red and green), with "New Surface" option on to create Inset surface. This way I get a way to select the edges to Weight them, if they get messed up. (Like, Select Inset polygons, then, "Select Outline Edges", and Weight them)

Layer 4: CC, with Inset outline edges to 100% Edge Weight
Layer 5: CC no Weight, just double Inset.

Anyway, got to love to sexy defined rims on edges.

Cheers

hunter
10-17-2012, 03:26 PM
I hadn't attached it previously but it's there now. I'm using 4 levels of rounding at 10 mm (to match the rounding I was successful at).

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thank you
DI

Do a merge points with Fixed at 0.05". Then check your 2 point poly's and delete them. There are some un-needed tiny polys in the mesh and this will clean that up. then you can select the two sides (the big Ngons) and run rounder on one side at a time. Then you'll have to run separate rounder operations on the remaining un-rounded edges, one group of edges at a time and then delete polys and clean up the areas where the Ngon sides and the circular parts meet. Not ideal but gets you there.

jasonwestmas
10-17-2012, 06:03 PM
Well, any modeler can do just about anything. The trick is to do it as fast as you can.

digitalimagery
10-17-2012, 06:42 PM
Thanks everyone for the help. Good timing too. I'm now posting a query on a UV map problem in case anyone wants to chime in. Again I'm a newbie but still have deadlines to meet.

Thanks so much.
DI

Snosrap
10-17-2012, 10:10 PM
I'll keep pandering Catmull-Clark edge weight so I keep reminding NT, that needs to be fixed :D Yeah - it sure would be nice to have a robust CC implementation or maybe the Pixar variant of SubD's.

jasonwestmas
10-18-2012, 06:15 AM
yeah those renderman CCs are really really nice.

Darth Mole
10-18-2012, 06:45 AM
I think Rounder is a great example of LW at it's best and worst. Kudos to Richard Brak for writing Rounder in the first place, although in truth it was a sort of mathematical challenge for him and so he didn't really have the desire to continue its development. So NewTek buy it and instigate it as a full interface tool, but to my knowledge it's barely changed since the last version Richard released. So why not give it to a coder (maybe Viktor of LW CAD) to tweak and improve? Don't get me wrong, I think it's great and I bought the original, but isn't it time it was properly finished - it's the sort of thing that, if fully formed and stable, would be a real selling point for the app.

stevenpalomino
10-18-2012, 08:14 AM
.....Don't get me wrong, I think it's great and I bought the original, but isn't it time it was properly finished - it's the sort of thing that, if fully formed and stable, would be a real selling point for the app.

+1 Agreed :D

JoePoe
10-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Sooooo....... here ya go. Original model, rounded.

Layers:
1) your original
2) cleaned up (see "explanation" below)
3) knife cuts in place. (Really not too many needed)
4) ROUNDED (4 at 10mm)
5) extra points from knifing removed. Final object.

Okay, so first of all.... yes yes yes yes yes LWCAD's MassRound (among other things) is easier, faster, more robust and just all-out better.
That being said, what you have at hand is Rounder so let's talk Rounder. :)

Rounder can be a bit of a bear. But, this is a good example where (yes, with a bit more work/prep) it can do the job.
When you get those kinda nasty rounder warnings it sounds so catastrophic! Usually it's not. Just picture a translation as saying "uh, something isn't quite right. you need to take another look at your model".
So that's what I did.

-first, looked at statistics and got rid of the two point polys. Put in knife cuts.....still had rounding issue. Hmmmmm.....
-Ran default merge points....nothing. Ran unify polys..... nothing. Still getting warning, ..... so something still isn't right!!:)
-Turned on smoothing and the issue became clearer. There was a fairly striking smoothing error ON QUADS (small smoothing prob on ngons too.... more on that later) on the curved sections.
-A quick check in those areas did show some stubborn overlapping geom. So, Hunter was quite right, a merge points using fixed distance did the trick. I used 2mm and that seemed to catch a few more points than .05. Then got rid of the new two point polys the merge created.
- That's where I have to split off from Hunter. I put my cuts back in (seriously, a minute tops) and....
-With one rounder command, rounded the whole thing in a single shot.
-Another minute to get rid of the cuts. Done.

So, in this case, Rounder was actually helping you find some faulty geometry (don't worry brotha, happens to the best of us :thumbsup:).
Once that was taken care of, the whole rounding was pretty darn quick (LWCAD notwithstanding :bowdown:).

Oh, almost forgot. Those ngons are going to give you smoothing errors no matter what (I'm assuming you wanted smoothing on). Maybe you can get away with them maybe you can't. I took the liberty of giving the ngons their own surface. It's exactly the same as the brushed alum you have started, just with the smoothing set to 10.

phew..... where's that damn drinking icon.............:beerchug:

probiner
10-18-2012, 12:06 PM
Use the OGL option in rounder joe, otherwise, bad Gourad smooth shading.

Cheers

JoePoe
10-18-2012, 12:37 PM
Thanks Probiner, seems that Rounder is even more helpful than even I was giving it credit for.

OGL helped on the bigger ngons (although, in a micro-managing nit picky way, the number of rounding polys needs to be watched while using it. 4 turned into 6).
The smaller ngons are being a bit more stubborn. Still getting an error.

:confused: What do you mean by "bad Gourad smooth shading"? (I hope it's not something I should have learned years ago....;D)

probiner
10-18-2012, 01:07 PM
http://vimeo.com/2166482
http://vimeo.com/2165443

If you go the the model you posted, to Layer 5, and apply the surface "Hrzntl_Brshd_Alum" to all polygons, you will understand what I am talking about by looking to the n-gons, from a skew angle.

If you make and Inset, that artifact, is gone.

hunter
10-18-2012, 02:09 PM
Sooooo....... here ya go. Original model, rounded.

Layers:
1) your original
2) cleaned up (see "explanation" below)
3) knife cuts in place. (Really not too many needed)
4) ROUNDED (4 at 10mm)
5) extra points from knifing removed. Final object.

Okay, so first of all.... yes yes yes yes yes LWCAD's MassRound (among other things) is easier, faster, more robust and just all-out better.
That being said, what you have at hand is Rounder so let's talk Rounder. :)

Rounder can be a bit of a bear. But, this is a good example where (yes, with a bit more work/prep) it can do the job.
When you get those kinda nasty rounder warnings it sounds so catastrophic! Usually it's not. Just picture a translation as saying "uh, something isn't quite right. you need to take another look at your model".
So that's what I did.

-first, looked at statistics and got rid of the two point polys. Put in knife cuts.....still had rounding issue. Hmmmmm.....
-Ran default merge points....nothing. Ran unify polys..... nothing. Still getting warning, ..... so something still isn't right!!:)
-Turned on smoothing and the issue became clearer. There was a fairly striking smoothing error ON QUADS (small smoothing prob on ngons too.... more on that later) on the curved sections.
-A quick check in those areas did show some stubborn overlapping geom. So, Hunter was quite right, a merge points using fixed distance did the trick. I used 2mm and that seemed to catch a few more points than .05. Then got rid of the new two point polys the merge created.
- That's where I have to split off from Hunter. I put my cuts back in (seriously, a minute tops) and....
-With one rounder command, rounded the whole thing in a single shot.
-Another minute to get rid of the cuts. Done.

So, in this case, Rounder was actually helping you find some faulty geometry (don't worry brotha, happens to the best of us :thumbsup:).
Once that was taken care of, the whole rounding was pretty darn quick (LWCAD notwithstanding :bowdown:).

Oh, almost forgot. Those ngons are going to give you smoothing errors no matter what (I'm assuming you wanted smoothing on). Maybe you can get away with them maybe you can't. I took the liberty of giving the ngons their own surface. It's exactly the same as the brushed alum you have started, just with the smoothing set to 10.

phew..... where's that damn drinking icon.............:beerchug:

Nice. Is it layer 3 in the object you posted that you would run rounder on? I keep getting the typical rounder error? Would like to work out how to use rounder more efficiently. Count me in on getting us a useful CC implementation, considering we were promised it in v.8.

JoePoe
10-18-2012, 02:19 PM
Ah, so Gourad Shading= Smooth Shading! Good to know :thumbsup:




If you go the the model you posted, to Layer 5, and apply the surface "Hrzntl_Brshd_Alum" to all polygons, you will understand what I am talking about by looking to the n-gons, from a skew angle.

Yes, this is where the model started. That's why I went to the smoothing angle solution, a-la the videos you posted.


If you make and Inset, that artifact, is gone.

Also, a good solution. Just wanted to keep the model as close to the original geometry as possible.

JoePoe
10-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Nice. Is it layer 3 in the object you posted that you would run rounder on?

Yes, layer three. Are you sure you have only the edges to be rounded selected?

image 1 = good
image 2 = trouble

digitalimagery
10-22-2012, 08:40 AM
Thanks Hunter/JoePoe,

Really appreciate all the help. This should help in all my modeling. Looking forward to the day when I can attempt a modeling challenge. Where can I find more info "ngons?" and what does that stand for. It seems to be an important part of advanced (or even beginner - me) models and I'm neither familiar with it or how they help/hurt a model?

Thanks again.
DI

Cryonic
10-22-2012, 01:39 PM
ngon is short for N-sided polygon. A triangle is a 3-sided polygon. A square or rectangle is a 4-sided polygon. Anything larger is an N-sided polygon, or ngon.