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Rayek
09-27-2012, 09:28 AM
I don't know if this news has registered yet, but Maxon is now offering a free student version as well - this means all the major players on the market now offer a free student version. Except for Lightwave.

This has been discussed before, and with the new v11/11.5, no dongle and all, I feel it the time is here for Newtek to roll with the times, and re-introduce Lightwave in 3d education. Too many schools have left LW, and without renewed student interest Lightwave is not going anywhere.

Come on Newtek, get with the (educational) program ;-)

rcallicotte
09-27-2012, 12:56 PM
Luxology doesn't.

EyeOn doesn't.

Planetside doesn't.

SideFX doesn't.




I don't know if this news has registered yet, but Maxon is now offering a free student version as well - this means all the major players on the market now offer a free student version. Except for Lightwave.

This has been discussed before, and with the new v11/11.5, no dongle and all, I feel it the time is here for Newtek to roll with the times, and re-introduce Lightwave in 3d education. Too many schools have left LW, and without renewed student interest Lightwave is not going anywhere.

Come on Newtek, get with the (educational) program ;-)

Rayek
09-27-2012, 01:49 PM
SideFX offers a free learning edition and a $99 Apprentice edition of Houdini.

Planetside offers a free version of Terragen for non-commercial work

Eyeon does not sell 3d modeling/animation software, but vfx/compositing/ software - with "market" I meant the 3d software market: modeling, texturing, character animation, etc. Not pure compositing. Different market (well, sort of - you know what I mean, I hope :-).

I was aware of Modo, but I still do not view Modo as a major player in the market - though it might change in the future with the acquisition of Luxology by the Foundry. Besides, the point is moot: Max, Maya, Blender, Houdini, SoftImage, Cinema4d - all accessible for free to any student willing to learn. Lightwave is not - and it is affecting Lightwave's position in schools, and indirectly, in the market. Why do you suppose even Maxon now finally gave in, and felt it should follow suit, even though they have been very successful in the last 10 years?

I am an instructor in one of the major visual fx/animation/3d game/film art colleges here in Vancouver, and I hear the same list of apps mentioned again and again - but no Lightwave. Lightwave is the underdog, but it has gained some momentum lately - so I believe now is the time for Newtek to use that, and gain a better foothold by offering a free student version.

Anyway, my two cents. If no students are attracted to learn Lightwave, how on earth is it going to survive in the future?

Cageman
09-27-2012, 02:53 PM
Anyway, my two cents. If no students are attracted to learn Lightwave, how on earth is it going to survive in the future?

I agree!

OnlineRender
09-27-2012, 03:12 PM
agreed ... totally , I will put it in football terms ... you start from the grass roots , LightWave know this , its being dropped from schools big time which is a sad reflections on the actual software, but as an educational institute you have a very small budget at the best of times, to include LW in this budget seems a no brain'er when AD have this market covered... people can argue all they want but if it sells its making money , wrong every single high school , college university should have the installed , the fact there is no dongle now ,its the next step , however LW3DG are not dumb and know this market ... so perhaps only time will tell.

Philbert
09-28-2012, 09:11 AM
I was going to bring this up myself yesterday when I saw that C4D has gone free for students. Even 3D-Coat is free for schools and students (while they're learning).

kopperdrake
09-28-2012, 09:30 AM
Agreed - free to students it should be (why did that come out all Yoda-esque?).

Free to students and a lowered upgrade point to get on board with the full version.

Philbert
09-28-2012, 10:01 AM
Well any upgrade from the edu version will get you to Pro level. In that sense LW can be a lot cheaper than the competition. IF you're definitely going to upgrade to Pro. I bought my first copy of LW as edu from DAVE School for $350, shortly after that I got a free upgrade to the next version and I was at pro level. I think the edu version is even cheaper now at places like Journey Ed.

Dexter2999
09-28-2012, 10:03 AM
The argument for "free" is troublesome to me. An EDU version is currently less than $100. I remember one of my friends when I was in college paid $380 for a Chemistry text book. I knew college kids who spent more than $100 a month on beer. Also, Lightwave EDU can be upgraded to full versions affordably.

So, from a student perspective, "free" isn't that huge of a deal for many of them here in the US. I'm sure the numbers change in the EU as soon as you add the VAT (or whatever taxes you have) and the idea of $100 changes perspective if you live in a comparatively poorer country.

No, the "free" status benefits mostly the institutions themselves. I guess their view is "Hey, we can save $2400 by getting 30 seats of this software for free and buy two or three new computers." And again, with taxes, that amount could be more in some countries.

I personally would not have been able to afford the Full version of LW without the EDU version and upgrade program. I can't say how many others may have benefited from this program. Nor can I say how much Newtek makes as a percentage from EDU sales. But, I can say that if institutions are dropping LW then the EDU licenses will fall away in any case. Both in the form of institutional purchases and in the form of individual seats as the students will get whatever the schools are teaching...which will also be free.

rcallicotte
09-28-2012, 10:09 AM
I agree about $99 not being a big deal to most students. I know some group around that has a software library for folks who prove they can't afford it. But, really, $100 (if someone is really interested) is a willing commitment. As has been said, "Put your money where your mouth is."

Lightwave's problem isn't that the students don't have access. It's because the curriculum in so many schools don't include it. I work in higher education and unless the faculty want something with commitment, it does not happen. I have sent many an email to the Department Chairs and Program Coordinators where I work showing what could be done, if someone was committed to the students. But, without that, how is it possible?

UnCommonGrafx
09-28-2012, 01:57 PM
RCallicotte has it!

It's not about the software as much as it is someone to push it in the school(s).

We just paid for the 11.xx series, 10 seat lab. I know it is because I want to teach the program I've been using.That it has gotten so much better goes SO well with the ability of middle school kids to actually get into and understand its two program paradigm.

I tell ya, Bullet has BEEN A BLAST to our students buy in.

Department Chairs and program coordinators have no concept of your tedium and the students' willingness to suffer through it to build a great model. Love screen capture for this reason: show the finished project, hurt them with the process it took. They will better get it.

hcoat
09-28-2012, 11:07 PM
If I hadn't been introduced to Lightwave in school, I would have never used it. Lightwave definitely was not on my radar of 3D apps at the time; ten years later it is still my main 3D app.

I recently visited one of my professor who is now teaching Maya, and Cinema 4D, mainly because it works for the schools budget and free for the students.

When I was student a $100 was lot and I wasn't able to through money around for just anything, but even if it is not a lot now days why would you pay it for Lightwave when you can get the others for free?

Newtek has got to compete and have a free student version. Getting people hook will payoff, and the only up front cost is the administrative cost of tracking and issuing educational versions of the software. It seems to me that a lot of people/companies think if they give out free software that it is a loss of revenue, which of course is not true for non-tangible things such lightwave. It is only a lose of revenue if you give it to people that would have bought it in the first place, this is obvious not the case for most of students. which mean the only plausible out come is that there would be more revenue when the students graduate and buys or has the company they work for buy it.

Unfortunately, having someone in the schools to push it is a "catch 22". You have to have people that have used and like the software and that have an incentive to use it over the competitors software (free, easy to maintain licensing, or what ever). But you can't have any of that without building your user base which bring us back to the student.

I would recommend having a free student version and then selling Lightwave at a discounted price when they can prove that they graduated.

Dexter2999
09-28-2012, 11:23 PM
I would recommend having a free student version and then selling Lightwave at a discounted price when they can prove that they graduated.


Sooo.....have your cake (free EDU) and eat it too (discounted full version)? Can't see that standing up as a business model. They have to make money somewhere. And they can't earn money to fund development by giving copies away AND selling it for less.

From a consumer view, yes, that would be the ultimate goal. But from a business view, can't see that happening.

gravin
09-29-2012, 06:01 AM
Sooo.....have your cake (free EDU) and eat it too (discounted full version)? Can't see that standing up as a business model. They have to make money somewhere. And they can't earn money to fund development by giving copies away AND selling it for less.

From a consumer view, yes, that would be the ultimate goal. But from a business view, can't see that happening.

Agreed, Autodesk offers a free and paid edu version of there software but the paid version is the only one eligible for a discounted upgrade to a commercial license.

ShadowMystic
09-29-2012, 12:20 PM
When I was student a $100 was lot and I wasn't able to through money around for just anything, but even if it is not a lot now days why would you pay it for Lightwave when you can get the others for free?


I call BS on this every time I hear it. I was a student. I worked through high school and college. When I really wanted something, I went without other things. I got Lightwave3D educational version from Academic Superstore for $395( yes, it used to be more. Now its $195) even though it meant eating a lot of rice and beans.

Ryan Roye
09-29-2012, 12:54 PM
Eh, but none of us knows how much revenue Newtek makes from their educational version... for all we know it could be a substantial portion of their business.

Now... as for the debate as to whether making the educational version free would boost overall income for Newtek, I haven't a clue.

Dexter2999
09-29-2012, 01:04 PM
The problem is that even though the "2 step" purchase of LW from EDU to commercial is beneficial in the long run, short term thinking of "Free, now" squeezes LW out of the schools watching pennies. Students also buy into this mentality with no mind to the signifigant purchase price down the road. (Of course many of them will just get cracked versions of whatever app.)

Point being, percentage of sales will mean nothing if schools stop using it. No more 10 pack sales to the schools. No more individual sales to the students. No more young people learning the software= Shrinking userbase. Shrinking userbase=less commercial seats sold.

I don't like it at all. But if LW wants to stay in the game, they are going to have to seriously consider what this means long term.

Philbert
09-29-2012, 01:12 PM
I call BS on this every time I hear it. I was a student. I worked through high school and college. When I really wanted something, I went without other things. I got Lightwave3D educational version from Academic Superstore for $395( yes, it used to be more. Now its $195) even though it meant eating a lot of rice and beans.


Not all of us were able to work through college let alone high school. I tried taking on a job while I was at DAVE School but my school work started to suffer so I had to leave it.

Cageman
09-29-2012, 01:53 PM
I agree about $99 not being a big deal to most students. I know some group around that has a software library for folks who prove they can't afford it. But, really, $100 (if someone is really interested) is a willing commitment. As has been said, "Put your money where your mouth is."

Lightwave's problem isn't that the students don't have access. It's because the curriculum in so many schools don't include it. I work in higher education and unless the faculty want something with commitment, it does not happen. I have sent many an email to the Department Chairs and Program Coordinators where I work showing what could be done, if someone was committed to the students. But, without that, how is it possible?

True... the money side of things is just one problem, finding good teachers and schools willing to adopt LW is another....

I do agree that the student lic has a very nice price now! $99 is not much... I forked out $495 or something for my student lic, but that also included all forthcomming LW9.x releases. Not bad! :)

OnlineRender
09-29-2012, 02:10 PM
it doesn't matter how much the software costs , if someone wants to learn / use; they will find a means to download it ...

ShadowMystic
09-29-2012, 02:18 PM
Not all of us were able to work through college let alone high school. I tried taking on a job while I was at DAVE School but my school work started to suffer so I had to leave it.

I wish I could have gone to DAVE School. Thanks Sallie Mae. Sorry,but I don't buy it. If you really want something you find a way. I got Adobe's Production Premium with a student loan. I worked for Lightwave3D. Maybe you have some very specific extenuating circumstances. Most don't and just make excuses.

Beans, Ramen, and Rice to buy Lightwave3D, upgrade video card, and more recently build new 'workstation.'

Serling
09-29-2012, 03:41 PM
I tried taking on a job while I was at DAVE School but my school work started to suffer so I had to leave it.

The school even tells students up front that working on the side isn't going to work because the number and difficulty of the projects they assign keeps you too busy to work another job.

My daughter got through the program at DAVE and is now working at Worldwide FX, but she wouldn't have made it through DAVE if she had had to hold down a job, too.

108180

We got her seat of LightWave through the school. It was $100 with the student discount. She's using Nuke full-time now. Go figure. :thumbsup:

ShadowMystic
09-29-2012, 04:05 PM
Michelle was very adamant about ensuring your loan accounted for living expenses beyond rent.

I couldn't get the loan.

Serling
09-29-2012, 04:31 PM
I couldn't get the loan.

I won't be able to, either, which is why it will be paid for out of my pension. :thumbsup:

Ryan Roye
09-29-2012, 05:35 PM
A lot of the software that offers a free educational license are also in the $3000-4000 price range or require continuous subscription payments to use. As far as I'm concerned, the price hike on the retail version for these programs makes up for any "losses" that might be associated with not charging for the educational version.

Lightwave is competitively priced. Even with the educational license price, students are going to pay far less to actually financially benefit from services produced using Lightwave than with Maya or a similar "bigwig" software.

Dexter2999
09-29-2012, 06:14 PM
I agree that LW is reasonably priced but that doesn't seem to matter. When people hear "free" heads will turn. Institutions will gladly use free software and students will be glad they have extra pizza/beer money.

By appealing to the public's baser instincts, things turn to crap. Blockbuster was put out of business by Netflix because Netflix appealed to people because they didn't have to go anywhere and it was cheaper. But now that Blockbuster is out of business as an alternative (at least in our area and many others if not all) Netflix drops the expensive contracts that supplied them with premium content and raised prices.

Apple dropped screen sizes and optical drives because people were whining about the weight. Plus, now all software and media is directed through their stores...unless you want to pay extra to get the utility you used to have as part of the base price.

So, software companies get new users by going to schools and offering free copies. All they see is that "short game". They aren't looking at what is going to happen when they are out of school. They don't consider how they will get legal copies of the software. Most kids now have grown up with Torrenting movies and music. They think it's "naughty" but they don't think of it as criminal. They will very likely use pirated copies to make money until they can buy legal copies.

Newtek can either give away the EDU software and try to grow the user base. Or they can cling to the EDU income and watch more schools drop it until there is no EDU income and as a result no new user base. Which will result in fewer commercial licenses sold.

I think it is in Newtek's best interest in the long run, to cater to students in the short run by following suite with free software. But I have also suggested in other threads possible compromises like extending the Trial license from 30 days to 120. Meaning students could likely get through a term or two with the trial.

hcoat
09-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Sooo.....have your cake (free EDU) and eat it too (discounted full version)? Can't see that standing up as a business model. They have to make money somewhere. And they can't earn money to fund development by giving copies away AND selling it for less.

From a consumer view, yes, that would be the ultimate goal. But from a business view, can't see that happening.

The whole point of having a cake is to eat it.:D Unfortunately, times are changing and business models have to change too. I don't think it's an unfair assumption to think that Newtek is losing student market shares. So, if no students are buying their software they are not making much money. Giving the software for free to the students who are not buying it is not truly not a loss as a download is virtually free, the servers that host the download are already being paid for by current customers and is are minimal cost. The bulk of the cost for providing free student versions of the software is in additional personnel to manage and track student accounts. It is actually an investment in the future Newtek. Newtek will continue to make money from its current clientele while building a larger base for the future. if we could look at graduating students and see what percentage of them would pay full price for lightwave, I would guess it would be a small percentage. To increase the percentage that buy lightwave, you offer them a one time graduation discount. again this is not a loss, because receiving a discount payment is more than not receiving the payment at all. As most of us know, when you make investment in software even at discounted price you are more likely to continue using the software and paying for upgrades.



I call BS on this every time I hear it. I was a student. I worked through high school and college. When I really wanted something, I went without other things. I got Lightwave3D educational version from Academic Superstore for $395( yes, it used to be more. Now its $195) even though it meant eating a lot of rice and beans.

I call BS on your BS. I know you're not nave enough to think that we all have the same life experience. There are many factors, to numerous to name, that can effect a persons position in life, that is just the way it is. I did work through school and bought the academic version of Lightwave for $395. That doesn't mean it was easy or that I had money to throw around, but it was a priority decision. The fact is that out of the 24 people in my Lightwave class, there were only two of us that took advantage of buying the student discounted version. The main reason of course, cost. I remember being teased about how rich I was when I bought it, but I knew what I wanted to do, maybe I was more committed than the others, who knows I wasn't there to judge. Anyways, NewTek only got 8% of my class, and it was the best price, at the time, for professional level 3D software that I was aware of. I do know that several people in the class were pirating Maya, because it was free, my guess is that they're probably still using Maya.


I agree that LW is reasonably priced but that doesn't seem to matter...

This is why my business model for student versions is the perfect business model.
I know free and discounts seems sounds like a bad business model, but it's a trend that you can see growing in all software markets, especially smart phone apps. I hated this trend at first and still don't like, but I realized this trend will continue and will continue to spill over, it is a matter of adapt and survive. I have no doubt that it will work, it just needs to be implemented.

Philbert
09-30-2012, 01:21 PM
The school even tells students up front that working on the side isn't going to work because the number and difficulty of the projects they assign keeps you too busy to work another job.

My daughter got through the program at DAVE and is now working at Worldwide FX, but she wouldn't have made it through DAVE if she had had to hold down a job, too.

108180


Do they not give out degrees anymore?

kopperdrake
09-30-2012, 01:28 PM
I agree about $99 not being a big deal to most students. I know some group around that has a software library for folks who prove they can't afford it. But, really, $100 (if someone is really interested) is a willing commitment. As has been said, "Put your money where your mouth is."

Whilst I have agreed in the past about charging something, with everyone else not charging, ask yourself what you would do in a student's situation?

ShadowMystic
09-30-2012, 02:03 PM
This is all pointless if Newtek can't increase its user in production studios. Its not just that AD products are free to students. The massive amount of jobs requiring AD expertise makes demand to learn them much higher. If I had the foresight, I might have learned Max and Maya instead of Lightwave because I didn't know so relatively few jobs were available. However, at the time, Lightwave was the only one I could find with a decently priced educational version. I don't believe it needs to be free, but it needs to have more use in production. Jobs drive education which drives jobs.

Skonk
09-30-2012, 02:30 PM
It's getting increasingly difficult to justify using Lightwave at my college when if we switched to one of Autodesk's products the students would get free access; and this is ontop of issues we've had upgrading to version 11 which for reasons relating to change over to digital distribution has meant that I have only received 3 of the 30 licenses I ordered so we've had to start term using version 9.

A free student version is severely needed if Newtek want to get more educational establishments teaching Lightwave.

Cageman
09-30-2012, 04:32 PM
A free student version is severely needed if Newtek want to get more educational establishments teaching Lightwave.

Hmm... yes... it would mean less hassle, and students could get started right away... though, a free version of LW would most likely impose a lot of limitations as well, since NT wouldn't want their product fully working in free mode, so to speak. It surely would need to be limited... A PLE version of LW with certain limitations, such as 960x540 as max resolution, watermarks in renders.

I'm not a big fan of the limitations imposed to Modeler with the max poly/point count (Discovery mode). But I have a hard time seeing how one could make Modeler limited, but still productive enough to warant a certain level of usability for students. At least to the point where they feel they can use it enough to warrant a $99 purchase of the Student version, giving them a fully functional product without any limitations.

One solution for institutions could be for NT/LW3DG to offer hardlocks instead of licensefiles or dongles, where each workstation has the license tied to the hardware. That way, students wouldn't be able to take the software with them home.

It isn't an easy nut to crack, but on the other hand, "free" versions of LW are avaliable if you are willing to break the law.

Ryan Roye
09-30-2012, 04:39 PM
Why not just incorporate the cost of Lightwave's student edition into the course itself? The student has to pay to attend anyways... Colleges do this all the time; especially for math and business courses where you would normally have to purchase a subscription to be given access to a program. Are students really going to veer completely away from Lightwave over a ~$150 difference in the courses available?

...as for the delays concerning actually getting LW into the hands of students/instructors... that's a whole different topic; I don't think anyone would disagree that Newtek needs to put that high in their priority list though.

fablefox
10-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Cinema 4D just released two type of student software (ala Houdini). If for previous version, the $99 Houdini allow you to make commercial model for the Torque 3D engine. But there is a free version for everyone else.

Now Cinema 4D is releasing two type of educational software, free and paid. The interesting part is that the free version can be used to create models that is compatible with the commercial one (as per cgtalk website).

I think we all can agree that people who have no respect for law, doesn't worry about "student version either". So LightWave Group need to cater people that care enough to actually uses student software, instead of googling around for certain versions.

fablefox
10-01-2012, 01:53 AM
Anyway, it seems that as far as 3d animation package goes (at least the big ones), LightWave is the only one that still have paid student edition. On the other hand, LightWave Group probably need all the money they could. But I'm not sure if keeping LW edu a paid software will put itself out of market? Dunno... only LW marketing people have the data.

fablefox
10-01-2012, 01:57 AM
A free student version is severely needed if Newtek want to get more educational establishments teaching Lightwave.

Sadly, Educational Establishment design their courses based on market need/request. If the market says we need Maya users, then that is exactly what going to happen.

FACT: 3D World survey at one time mention that more than 80% animation studios in Malaysia uses maya.

So you know what you need to do to create marketable students. Chicken and egg, really. But to charge when the rest already move to free, that sound like really cornering yourself out of market.

fablefox
10-01-2012, 02:09 AM
I don't really know UDK or CryEngine business model, or maybe I already know, but won't accept. Maybe Unity too. Unity have free version that can be used commercially (hoping that when you generate income, you might want to move to pro version). UDK have free and 99 version (ala houdini). and the 99 can be used commercially, with royalty after first $50K. So on with CryEngine.

Adobe is moving to monthly rent (although you can also purchase outright). I don't really know what future hold for 3d software business. But several large 3d software developer knows enough to let their student version become free.

I don't know how much users would LW generate if suddenly LW becomes free if you earn less than, say, $100 per month or $1200 per year using it? Imagine the amount of books, tutorials, free tutorials, user exchanging knowledge if suddenly LW follows the route. With Blender available and getting stronger, maybe this would be the only option if LW want to stay relevant.

aidenvfx
10-05-2012, 09:15 AM
Why it needs to be free is not because $100 or $200 bucks is to expensive it is that why would a student pay that when they can get Maya or C4D for free?

The other issue is for a student paying between $10k-$30k as a example they want to learn the software that well get the, a job in a VFX house and most use maya and now Houdini for FX and sim work so it makes sense for the schools to focus on the big players. Light wave needs to get into more VFX houses and that will help get them into schools. I think that is exactly what Rob and team are doing and why they put Lightwave right in Hollywood to get the software into the hands of those that make decisions but it won't happen over night. However will Lightwave being showcased on larger and popular shows like "The Walking Dead" that will help.

raymondtrace
10-05-2012, 10:52 AM
I would not be surprised if the new licensing/activation mechanism for 11.0.3 is a path toward a free or lower cost educational version (as well as a subscription model for short studio production runs). The age-old licensing model really limited Newtek's ability to offer fuller functional dongle-free versions to select audiences... without the risk of those select audiences sharing their version with the rest of the world.

The main reason why I use LW is because it is the software that was put in front of me as a student. So yeah, this stuff does matter. But I can't really complain about the current educational pricing. It is a few hundred dollars less than the educational pricing I paid years ago. And recognizing that the cost to move to full commercial use is still so low compared to other apps, Autodesk would need to do more than offer Maya/3DS for free. They'd need to pay students $2000 to hook them on their $2000-more-expensive commercial products. If Newtek were to truly follow this market, they could offer a free trainer version and balance that by raising the price on the commercial product. Who is in favor of that?

EDIT: One more thought... the free software is only offered to students. Schools still pay for the licenses that they teach. So whether or not LW is offered freely to students is not really a deciding factor for school budgets. And while there is definitely a benefit to a student being able to work from home, that is not where the action is. When I was a student, I made heavy use of the much higher end hardware at school and made my presence known at the school. Had I been working quietly from my home computer, I would not likely have been noticed and hired.

beverins
10-09-2012, 04:46 PM
What Newtek might consider is leveraging games and the games market. They seem mired in the same thought pattern of their video division - to make videos / animations / vfx. Lightwave should expand its market view to games and other interactive forms. In the other thread there is a small discussion on Lightwave in the Steam Store, joining 3DCoat there. Even if Newtek doesn't want to deal with Valve having a cut of every purchase, or deal with having to integrate Steam's DRM into their licensing scheme, they could at least acknowledge that Valve really has a marvelous idea going and develop some seamless interconnectivity between Lightwave and Valve's machinima tools. Another option is to join up with Crytek on their Cryengine For Cinema tools. Whatever you might think of games, they aren't going anywhere. While the VFX industry goes through its growing pains (Digital Domain bankruptcy, etc) the games market is growing by leaps and bounds. Lightwave really doesn't have a lot of SEAMLESS tools to use to translate LWO and LWS over to all the various game engines out there. All of the tools I have seen for this require some funky workarounds for the Zup / Yup problems, model filetypes, bones, surfacing and motion files... if solutions even exist at all.

Rather than Newtek develop these "go-Z" type tools for the various engines themselves, maybe work with the game companies to see if they can help. If it means having to deal with the devil and give away part of your sales profits to Valve or EA in exchange for Valve's or Crytek's programmers to give you the tools you don't have.... well... I say then you deal with the devil. But that's just me, and I'm not a businessman LOL If Newtek could make these tools by themselves, then that would be terrific. They managed to make Go-Z a reality. So, now Newtek should make some smooth interconnectivity plugins for CryEngine, Valve, Unity, Unreal and Torque (to name a few) that seamlessly convert Yup/Zup, bones, motion, etc...

Philbert
10-09-2012, 06:17 PM
I believe they are looking at the games market. Just look at the recent official connection made with Unity. I think this is only the first step.

beverins
10-10-2012, 08:10 AM
And how my games market statement correlates with the educational market - if LW3DG can manage to get a workable connectivity between various game engines, then schools will be more willing to add LW to their curriculum.

As for the "free lightwave for students", I'm all for it - however, if Newtek doesn't want to make it free they should offer a special pricing discount for students in schools that buy Lightwave, much like Adobe do... What Adobe does is they offer their products (including stuff like the Master Collection Suite) either for free or for dramatically reduced cost to the students of those schools that participate in their CLP program - of course the school does have to buy the software at EDU pricing at a certain amount to qualify.

Students who aren't in schools that have such programs still get charged the normal student rate. The normal student rate, too, could be lowered a little bit - a round number of $100 perhaps (with a round number of 100 you can also offer some other incentives such as tutorials or even a software extra like... for example... starter scenes from 3D Arsenal or a collection from Dosch Design perhaps).

Unfortunately for the Newtek LW developers it just means more workload. In addition to all the stuff we want for VFX pipelines, they now have to develop stuff for games pipelines. Like I mentioned before.. but bears repeating... having some sort of seamless method (be it plugin, mode switch in Modeler, or a specific foolproof workflow) that's easy to use in order to translate Y-Up into Z-Up for exporting into a game engine should at least be on their roadmap for LW 12+

jwiede
10-11-2012, 05:35 AM
Why it needs to be free is not because $100 or $200 bucks is to expensive it is that why would a student pay that when they can get Maya or C4D for free?
With slight modification, this is the crux of the issue, and bears repeating -- everything else is basically irrelevant:

Why would a student / educator / school pay $100 for LW when they can get seats of AD apps or C4D for free?

There's plenty of ways to convince yourselves the amount Newtek charges for an edu. LW seat is perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, none of those justifications matter if, in the end, the educational user winds up going elsewhere. Unsold seats generate no revenue. The scenario is really either "get $0 revenue, but get a education seat filled with LW" or "get $0 revenue, and education seat goes with a different app".

fablefox
10-11-2012, 06:20 AM
And how my games market statement correlates with the educational market - if LW3DG can manage to get a workable connectivity between various game engines, then schools will be more willing to add LW to their curriculum.

SNIP

Unfortunately for the Newtek LW developers it just means more workload. In addition to all the stuff we want for VFX pipelines, they now have to develop stuff for games pipelines. Like I mentioned before.. but bears repeating... having some sort of seamless method (be it plugin, mode switch in Modeler, or a specific foolproof workflow) that's easy to use in order to translate Y-Up into Z-Up for exporting into a game engine should at least be on their roadmap for LW 12+

People who spent $99 on UDK or the free-with-royalty CryEngine is not going to spent a lot of money on a modeller. So LW can fill in this niche. But if LW3D Group didn't then they will just download the free home study of Maya/Max and save their cash when they are ready to go big.

Since LW is far from being able to compete with Maya/Max, specially in the ecosystem side, it is good to fill in game modelling niche while gaining user base.

raymondtrace
10-11-2012, 10:47 AM
With slight modification, this is the crux of the issue, and bears repeating -- everything else is basically irrelevant:

Why would a student / educator / school pay $100 for LW when they can get seats of AD apps or C4D for free?

The topic has just been skewed with some misinformation that does not bear repeating. Educators and schools are not getting seats of AD apps or C4D for free. Free versions are only offered to students. Educators and schools do not qualify for free software. Educators and schools are still charged by all 3D software vendors.

A student with a free license to PROGRAM X is not going to drive a learning institution to implement training in that program. Schools base their curriculum on what is used by professionals, not what is freely offered to students. Schools and teachers have to pay no matter what software they choose.

If cost was the true issue, every school would be teaching Blender.

beverins
10-12-2012, 08:15 AM
Mostly that's true - but there are some schools that have managed to get not only Autodesk to give them the Entertainment Creation Suite for a free, unlimited floating site license but also to give all the students free copies of the student edition. Others pay into the deal in order so that the students can receive some kickback or, as in the case of Adobe, that the lowered-price student editions help to pay for the school's maintenance subscription.

And actually, the C4D "free" edition IS available to schools. You just have to be able to pass their applications process.

One instance of someone who's really trying is the maker of 3D Coat - free to schools, period.

raymondtrace
10-12-2012, 09:46 AM
I'd love to know which schools are getting free software. When I taught, we struggled to obtain licensing within our budget. There were major political games between all the players. Software vendors were always helpful in getting us cheaper licensing, but it was always at a cost.

Philbert
10-12-2012, 01:14 PM
I'd love to know which schools are getting free software. When I taught, we struggled to obtain licensing within our budget. There were major political games between all the players. Software vendors were always helpful in getting us cheaper licensing, but it was always at a cost.

I know 3D-Coat is free for schools and also free for the students while they take their class.

raymondtrace
10-12-2012, 02:58 PM
This is good to know but I was really curious about the previous allegation that AD apps and C4D were free for schools.

...also, I see 3D-coat's academic web page where licenses are freely offered to schools but I do not see anything about free student licensing. Do schools simply request extra seats for their floating license and then share those with the students?

ShadowMystic
10-12-2012, 03:43 PM
Double post

ShadowMystic
10-12-2012, 03:44 PM
Mostly that's true - but there are some schools that have managed to get not only Autodesk to give them the Entertainment Creation Suite for a free, unlimited floating site license but also to give all the students free copies of the student edition. Others pay into the deal in order so that the students can receive some kickback or, as in the case of Adobe, that the lowered-price student editions help to pay for the school's maintenance subscription.

And actually, the C4D "free" edition IS available to schools. You just have to be able to pass their applications process.

One instance of someone who's really trying is the maker of 3D Coat - free to schools, period.

Unless you have documentation, I believe you are mistaken. It is true that sometimes educators do receive free licenses like students, but schools still have to buy licenses to teach the software. Using software for education falls under commercial use, technically. Its common that schools get a discount for this commercial use, but the institutions licenses aren't free. I don't have knowledge of 3D coats policies, but my guess is it is free to schools (if it truly is) is because ZBrush has such a installment base that if it were anything but free a school would not be inclined to teach it. The industry standard is ZBrush or Mudbox to my knowledge, and that is what a school would teach to meet industry demand.

This goes back to Lightwave3D real problem. It isn't about education version being free to students. No matter what you think. If the industry majority used Lightwave3D, then a price tag of $500 for EDU version would still sell(or be pirated).

fablefox
10-12-2012, 11:16 PM
One thing for sure Houdini is free even for "education" or "teaching". I think it was mentioned that is the case. Unless those school want more options (render token, etc).

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=221

Other than that they can use the free version. People who want to make tutorials / write books also can use the free version, just google the forum.

ShadowMystic
10-12-2012, 11:50 PM
One thing for sure Houdini is free even for "education" or "teaching". I think it was mentioned that is the case. Unless those school want more options (render token, etc).

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=221

Other than that they can use the free version. People who want to make tutorials / write books also can use the free version, just google the forum.

Might have to check that out

raymondtrace
10-15-2012, 10:18 AM
I just got a response from 3D-Coat by email. They explicitly stated that there is no free version for students.

And that Houdini page is pretty clear that the free version is not intended for school labs. It is only for students. Schools still need to pay $325 per year, per seat.

Each software license has its catch. I do not understand how one can argue for a free version of LW, by citing the market, when the market is so varied. It is so messy that few in this discussion have been able to accurately provide examples.

djwaterman
10-15-2012, 11:29 AM
I've never believed the idea of giving something away for free will make you money in the long term. Trial versions with limits or discounted price for students, but definitely no free version.

Chuck
10-15-2012, 12:43 PM
The truth about the free student editions is that we've had one as long as anyone else has had one (Discovery Edition) and a whole lot longer than some. When you look at what the free editions are actually like, it is clear that a lot of smoke and mirrors is involved. People end up saying that "X is free for students now!" and that's just not the case. Some very limited version of the product is available in a very time limited license. Very effectively executed smoke and mirrors, but smoke and mirrors none the less.

When all this is actually taken into account, then in terms of the product itself the most we need to do is to make some changes to our Discovery Edition limitations. Our paid student license is still the best deal in the market for a paid student license, so the offer itself needs no change. Primarily what will really be the biggest effort required is to respond to the "marketing breakthrough" (because that's what it really is, not any particular major new policy or development of the products involved) with our own marketing efforts. And these are issues that the NewTek LightWave 3D Group management is working on with considerable thoughtfulness.

There are some points worth noting about our paid edu licenses (and we include these now in our communications to folks asking about our $195 student educational licenses):

The educational copy is the full product, not a limited version of the product as is common for the educational licenses (both free and paid) of many other products.
The license is permanent; it does not time out as the educational licenses (both free and paid) of many other products do.
When product upgrades are offered, you can upgrade to the new version for a low educational upgrade price. This is not the case with the educational licenses of many other products.
If you decide you wish to convert to a commercial license, the educational license can be upgraded to commercial for the same low price that a commercial user would pay to upgrade their commercial license to the latest version. Most other products make an educational user pay full price to get to the commercial license, or they offer at most a small discount. You can do the upgrade to commercial at any time, but if you choose to do it when an upgrade is on offer, then it is a simple matter of buying that upgrade at the commercial upgrade price.



Question to the crew:

What would be a more reasonable definition of limitations for the Discovery Edition, given the current market realities?

Bear in mind that the current set is:

unable to save more than 400 pts per layer
no network rendering
no hub or other automated data exchange between Layout and Modeler when both are open
no third party plugins
watermarked renders
and, IIRC a limit on the resolution that can be rendered.

Skonk
10-15-2012, 02:09 PM
The truth about the free student editions is that we've had one as long as anyone else has had one (Discovery Edition) and a whole lot longer than some. When you look at what the free editions are actually like, it is clear that a lot of smoke and mirrors is involved. People end up saying that "X is free for students now!" and that's just not the case. Some very limited version of the product is available in a very time limited license. Very effectively executed smoke and mirrors, but smoke and mirrors none the less.

When all this is actually taken into account, then in terms of the product itself the most we need to do is to make some changes to our Discovery Edition limitations. Our paid student license is still the best deal in the market for a paid student license, so the offer itself needs no change. Primarily what will really be the biggest effort required is to respond to the "marketing breakthrough" (because that's what it really is, not any particular major new policy or development of the products involved) with our own marketing efforts. And these are issues that the NewTek LightWave 3D Group management is working on with considerable thoughtfulness.

There are some points worth noting about our paid edu licenses (and we include these now in our communications to folks asking about our $195 student educational licenses):

The educational copy is the full product, not a limited version of the product as is common for the educational licenses (both free and paid) of many other products.
The license is permanent; it does not time out as the educational licenses (both free and paid) of many other products do.
When product upgrades are offered, you can upgrade to the new version for a low educational upgrade price. This is not the case with the educational licenses of many other products.
If you decide you wish to convert to a commercial license, the educational license can be upgraded to commercial for the same low price that a commercial user would pay to upgrade their commercial license to the latest version. Most other products make an educational user pay full price to get to the commercial license, or they offer at most a small discount. You can do the upgrade to commercial at any time, but if you choose to do it when an upgrade is on offer, then it is a simple matter of buying that upgrade at the commercial upgrade price.



Question to the crew:

What would be a more reasonable definition of limitations for the Discovery Edition, given the current market realities?

Bear in mind that the current set is:

unable to save more than 400 pts per layer
no network rendering
no hub or other automated data exchange between Layout and Modeler when both are open
no third party plugins
watermarked renders
and, IIRC a limit on the resolution that can be rendered.


None of the Autodesk products which are available 100% free to students have any limits at all other than the license stating that they can't be used for commercial purposes.

The Lightwave discovery edition is "ok" for a mess about but certainly not usable as a way for students to complete 3d work which is required of them by our college since the point limit effectively cripples it.

We have between 3 and 5 classes of upto 30 students per class being taught 3D each year and due to me personally favouring Lightwave we have used it since I started working there; but I'm having a constant battle against the question of "can we get this to use at home?", "Why don't you use max when we can get it for free and use it at home?" etc..

Now keep in mind that these are 16 and 17 year old kids who have just come from school and we provide 2 year courses with some 3D related units (so only a portion of the course is based on 3D) which then lead on to the students going to uni; expecting kids of this age to pay for educational licenses for software they may never use again is ridiculous (unless it literally only cost around 40-50) and the fact that many of these students are from poor backgrounds, it severely limits the students who may well have otherwise continued using Lightwave beyond doing our courses.

If the students could ALL get lightwave for none commercial use, without this stupid low point limit then a lot more of them would continue to use it beyond their education (and due to being able to use it at home, do better in their education) and then when they are in a position to buy some 3d software (either for personal use or for their work) then they are more likely to buy the software they know... which would hopefully be Lightwave in this case.

Despite all this I still love Lightwave and even ordered 30 licenses of Lightwave 11 back in August (as upgrades from our v9 licenses), but due to some issue relating to Newtek stopping selling retail boxes of lightwave (so going to digital download? according to the reseller anyway) I have only received 3 of the 30 licenses so we've had to start the year still using Lightwave 9 and I have no idea if we will ever actually get the licenses we ordered (without having to cancel the order and re-order at a higher cost or something).

It is VERY hard to justify why I still keep our college using Lightwave when face with all of the above.

EDIT: Added a quick rant about upgrade issues ive had

Skonk
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
"Question to the crew:

What would be a more reasonable definition of limitations for the Discovery Edition, given the current market realities?

Bear in mind that the current set is:
unable to save more than 400 pts per layer
no network rendering
no hub or other automated data exchange between Layout and Modeler when both are open
no third party plugins
watermarked renders
and, IIRC a limit on the resolution that can be rendered."

Sorry forgot to reply to this bit.

Essentially if the limits prevent them from creating the work required to attain their qualification then the limits are too harsh.

So the 400 points per layer is the big killer here but also the extreme watermarking of renders is also an issue (renders have to clear enough for external verifies to be able to judge that we have graded the students correctly, the checker board currently used makes this almost impossible).

Also note that many tools fail because they cause the point counts to go over the 400 limit and pop the error box; and when layers contain more than 400 points the default delete function actually stops working which pretty much breaks the program (as well as many other tools stopping working); fracture doesn't work in discovery mode too, and bullet also doesn't work.

Overall, discovery mode is pretty much useless for student use.

ShadowMystic
10-15-2012, 04:23 PM
None of the Autodesk products which are available 100% free to students have any limits at all other than the license stating that they can't be used for commercial purposes.

The Lightwave discovery edition is "ok" for a mess about but certainly not usable as a way for students to complete 3d work which is required of them by our college since the point limit effectively cripples it.

We have between 3 and 5 classes of upto 30 students per class being taught 3D each year and due to me personally favouring Lightwave we have used it since I started working there; but I'm having a constant battle against the question of "can we get this to use at home?", "Why don't you use max when we can get it for free and use it at home?" etc..

Now keep in mind that these are 16 and 17 year old kids who have just come from school and we provide 2 year courses with some 3D related units (so only a portion of the course is based on 3D) which then lead on to the students going to uni; expecting kids of this age to pay for educational licenses for software they may never use again is ridiculous (unless it literally only cost around 40-50) and the fact that many of these students are from poor backgrounds, it severely limits the students who may well have otherwise continued using Lightwave beyond doing our courses.

If the students could ALL get lightwave for none commercial use, without this stupid low point limit then a lot more of them would continue to use it beyond their education (and due to being able to use it at home, do better in their education) and then when they are in a position to buy some 3d software (either for personal use or for their work) then they are more likely to buy the software they know... which would hopefully be Lightwave in this case.

Despite all this I still love Lightwave and even ordered 30 licenses of Lightwave 11 back in August (as upgrades from our v9 licenses), but due to some issue relating to Newtek stopping selling retail boxes of lightwave (so going to digital download? according to the reseller anyway) I have only received 3 of the 30 licenses so we've had to start the year still using Lightwave 9 and I have no idea if we will ever actually get the licenses we ordered (without having to cancel the order and re-order at a higher cost or something).

It is VERY hard to justify why I still keep our college using Lightwave when face with all of the above.

EDIT: Added a quick rant about upgrade issues ive had

I've heard you complain about your issue many times, but it sounds like your problem is with the reseller. Get a refund and buy your licenses else where. Everything else you appear spot on.

Unfortunately, I've began learning Maya this week. Already, I am getting many many 'oh thats nifty/ nice' moments. Btw I'm using a free training license.

Skonk
10-15-2012, 04:30 PM
By many times I assume you mean twice, but yeah could just be an issue with the reseller.

ShadowMystic
10-15-2012, 04:49 PM
Yes. Many. It is possible i just read the same post multiple times though, but I thought you had mentioned it more. My mistake.

djwaterman
10-15-2012, 09:53 PM
Raise the point limit to something pretty decent and en-smallen the watermark (I've actually never seen it myself). I teach Lightwave at college and the point limit stops the one or two students who can't use the dongles since a few of them seem to have gone missing. Plus we are using version 9.4 and it would be great to have them seeing stuff in VPR and using the latest features, alas I spoke to the head yesterday and we agreed that next year we'll move over to Blender because it's free and we are only doing a kind of 'taster' into 3D anyway. I don't advocate Lightwave Group going free, just make the free version a little more usable, the trial edition of Kray had a black border around the render with some white words in it, and you could limit the render output to 720 by 576. the point limit should be something like 5000 or even more.

But I think the pricing policy as described above is good as is.

Philbert
10-15-2012, 11:59 PM
I just got a response from 3D-Coat by email. They explicitly stated that there is no free version for students.

Ah, OK sorry they must have changed it.

fablefox
10-16-2012, 05:03 AM
I just got a response from 3D-Coat by email. They explicitly stated that there is no free version for students.

And that Houdini page is pretty clear that the free version is not intended for school labs. It is only for students. Schools still need to pay $325 per year, per seat.

Each software license has its catch. I do not understand how one can argue for a free version of LW, by citing the market, when the market is so varied. It is so messy that few in this discussion have been able to accurately provide examples.

I'm not quite sure... but I prefer to stand corrected with my opinion that if the school decided not to use the advance feature (the one that cost around $325 per seat), they can install the apprentice version for free in their lab.

http://www.sidefx.com/images/stories/learning/education/houdini_education.pdf

"You can even use the free version of Apprentice in your lab to begin exploring how going procedural with Houdini can help you in the classroom."

And even looking at the licensing page,

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=385&Itemid=190

"... interfaces with Houdini Apprentice and Apprentice HD student license..." it felt like only the professor need it (if he required it) and probably need only one for each lab. Because as Side FX mentioned above, you can install the Apprentice version in the lab if you wanted...

Maybe SideFX need to be more clear on this...

fablefox
10-16-2012, 05:13 AM
@Chuck,

If almost everyone is going free (at least Autodesk, C4D, Houdini) could you at least give free upgrades to those that purchased edu license? At least they already pay, and since it not allowed for commercial use, does LW3D group need to charge them if they want to keep updated and learn new part of the software?

raymondtrace
10-16-2012, 06:58 AM
...Maybe SideFX need to be more clear on this...

Yes, they absolutely do because they've contradicted themselves. The PDF file you linked above was edited from its original form with a hack job in Illustrator. Those guys don't even have access to their original design files for their own marketing. Sad. Bizarre for a graphics company.

Notice the table on page 3. Directly above the table it looks like they had trouble deciding whether they wanted to specify Houdini or Houdini FX. And in the table header itself, they drew a red line over "FX" in "Houdini FX". The columns for "Available for School Labs" have clearly been changed to "No" for the Apprentice versions. The column is not center-aligned... a clear sign of PDF doctoring.

You're going to need to contact a Houdini educational sales rep directly to get the whole story. They've made a mess of their online marketing.

raymondtrace
10-16-2012, 07:30 AM
...If almost everyone is going free (at least Autodesk, C4D, Houdini) could you at least give free upgrades to those that purchased edu license?...

I'm not following that logic when comparing competing products.

The lowest price I have seen someone pay to go from a free student Maya to a commercial license is $1800.

The Newtek Lightwave path from educational to commercial is $900 cheaper than this competition.

There is a reason why the competition needs to give away student versions for free. Are you recommending that Newtek raises their commercial price on LW to be like these competing apps? Be careful what you wish for.

Skonk
10-16-2012, 08:21 AM
I'm not following that logic when comparing competing products.

The lowest price I have seen someone pay to go from a free student Maya to a commercial license is $1800.

The Newtek Lightwave path from educational to commercial is $900 cheaper than this competition.

There is a reason why the competition needs to give away student versions for free. Are you recommending that Newtek raises their commercial price on LW to be like these competing apps? Be careful what you wish for.

The simple fact is that charging anything for the educational version limits the number of people who will pick up and learn the software; less people learning the software leads to less people buying commercial licenses (since people will generally buy the software they know how to use when they are in a position to buy).

Getting Lightwave into the hands of as many people as possible will mean many more people will at some point buy the commercial version when they have the opportunity; and the best way to do this is to make the educational version free (or at least so cheap that the cost is negligible, something around the cost of a computer game would be fine).

Skonk
10-16-2012, 08:36 AM
Just to add; when Lightwave required a dongle, it was understandable that they had to charge for it since the dongle hardware costs money to supply. But with the removal of the need for dongles there really is no reason why the education version has to be charged for (or at least no reason why the cost can't be reduced).

raymondtrace
10-16-2012, 09:31 AM
The simple fact is that if Newtek drops the price of a student version to free like the competition, Newtek will need to compensate for the loss of educational revenue by raising their commercial prices like some of the competition.

There is no evidence that offering a free version is the best way to encourage learning and adoption. There is no tool more free or more compatible with all platforms than Blender. It should be ubiquitous. Yet it rarely appears as a tool requirement for open 3D artist positions.

Comparing the price of content creation software (LW) to content consumption software (games) is a bit unfair. There is a far greater demand for games because there is a greater audience. The audience that creates 3D is tiny.

The student price was not tied to the dongle cost. It was tied to the value of the product. With the removal of the dongle, there may be more options for online licensing... such as offering a free version for 3 or 6 months... the length of time a student is taking a class. At the end of that period, the license is revoked. That makes the $200 perpetual license seem like a much better value.

Philbert
10-16-2012, 12:27 PM
The Newtek Lightwave path from educational to commercial is $900 cheaper than this competition.

This is true IF you upgrade. I'd guess many students may have a class in LightWave buy that doesn't necessarily mean they know 100% for sure that they want to buy LightWave after the class ends. Heck, they might even get a job at a studio straight out of school and don't need a personal copy.

Chuck
10-16-2012, 01:30 PM
None of the Autodesk products which are available 100% free to students have any limits at all other than the license stating that they can't be used for commercial purposes.

The Lightwave discovery edition is "ok" for a mess about but certainly not usable as a way for students to complete 3d work which is required of them by our college since the point limit effectively cripples it.

We have between 3 and 5 classes of upto 30 students per class being taught 3D each year and due to me personally favouring Lightwave we have used it since I started working there; but I'm having a constant battle against the question of "can we get this to use at home?", "Why don't you use max when we can get it for free and use it at home?" etc..

Now keep in mind that these are 16 and 17 year old kids who have just come from school and we provide 2 year courses with some 3D related units (so only a portion of the course is based on 3D) which then lead on to the students going to uni; expecting kids of this age to pay for educational licenses for software they may never use again is ridiculous (unless it literally only cost around 40-50) and the fact that many of these students are from poor backgrounds, it severely limits the students who may well have otherwise continued using Lightwave beyond doing our courses.

If the students could ALL get lightwave for none commercial use, without this stupid low point limit then a lot more of them would continue to use it beyond their education (and due to being able to use it at home, do better in their education) and then when they are in a position to buy some 3d software (either for personal use or for their work) then they are more likely to buy the software they know... which would hopefully be Lightwave in this case.

Despite all this I still love Lightwave and even ordered 30 licenses of Lightwave 11 back in August (as upgrades from our v9 licenses), but due to some issue relating to Newtek stopping selling retail boxes of lightwave (so going to digital download? according to the reseller anyway) I have only received 3 of the 30 licenses so we've had to start the year still using Lightwave 9 and I have no idea if we will ever actually get the licenses we ordered (without having to cancel the order and re-order at a higher cost or something).

It is VERY hard to justify why I still keep our college using Lightwave when face with all of the above.

EDIT: Added a quick rant about upgrade issues ive had

Autodesk's site states that the license has the following limits:


The Autodesk Student Version software incorporates all the functionality of our professional licenses, but includes a print banner making the software inappropriate for professional, commercial, or for-profit purposes. Autodesk Student Version software may not be used in the classroom or lab for instructional purposes, or for commercial or for-profit purposes. Annual licenses of Autodesk student software are not eligible for product upgrade or transfer to a commercial license.

Print banner would mean a watermark on the render output? Plus the license is for one year, and is not upgradeable. LightWave Discovery Edition does not time out, but would also not be eligible for upgrade - you have to buy the product to move up from it. You don't have to register it to get it to run - what is the case with Autodesk's products?

I'm sending you a PM on the purchase issue.

ShadowMystic
10-16-2012, 01:39 PM
Serious students will pay for a license to the software they need if it will get them the job. It isn't that Lightwave is a paid student edition! I have said it already, but unless Lightwave increases its studio install base. Lightwave is well known for being the TV go to. It has to be more than that. Question becomes can Newtek and LW3DG pull it off. Until then, Lightwave's use will be limited.

Chuck
10-16-2012, 01:49 PM
Another point that needs to be considered is that you cannot necessarily do everything the 800-pound gorilla in your market does, especially when the 800-pound gorilla is exercising their deeper pockets in a strategy specifically designed to remove all competitors from a given market segment by dint of just giving product free to that segment. You have to instead find a differentiation that makes your product valuable to acquire as well, and maybe even leverages the fact that people have a few extra dollars they did not have to spend because the 800-pound gorilla saved them the cost of his product. A free option done in a way that benefits students in a defined way that does not eliminate the need to purchase the commercial product does seem necessary (a PLE with a time limit?), but that does not mean the place has been lost for a product that is very low cost, never times out and also provides the most economical entry available to a commercial product.

Skonk
10-16-2012, 02:28 PM
Autodesk's site states that the license has the following limits:



Print banner would mean a watermark on the render output? Plus the license is for one year, and is not upgradeable. LightWave Discovery Edition does not time out, but would also not be eligible for upgrade - you have to buy the product to move up from it. You don't have to register it to get it to run - what is the case with Autodesk's products?

I'm sending you a PM on the purchase issue.

I'm not 100% sure what the print banner is but there certainly is no watermark on renders or limits on things like render size - having used the free/edu version myself for some time I have never seen anything like that.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7165610/Max.PNG

Perhaps it is as literal as it sounds, I.E hitting "Print" in the render window puts a banner on the print? (I'll check when I get chance).

As for the duration, a few years back when they first introduced the free versions it was based on how long your course ran for; so a 2 year license for a 2 year course.

But I don't think there is any time limit any more as I know several people who still run the software (plus have upgraded to the new versions as they have been released) for much longer than 2 years (myself included, still for education purposes of course) and when I personally access my educational account there is no mention of any time limits.

I take onboard your point about cost of purchasing later though but I still think Lightwave would benefit far more from getting more people into it in the first place and making the educational version free or at least cheap enough for a 16 year old to buy (I.E 40, or the cost of the average computer game here in the UK) is the way to go.

Thanks for the info about the purchase issue btw; I know it's a reseller issue but any help to sort it out is going to be very useful :)


@ShadowMystic
"Serious students will pay for a license to the software they need if it will get them the job."

That's all well and good for people studying at uni level but my students have just left school and are at least 5 years worth of education away from that job; many of them don't even know fully what they wan't to do as a career.

"It isn't that Lightwave is a paid student edition! I have said it already, but unless Lightwave increases its studio install base. Lightwave is well known for being the TV go to. It has to be more than that. Question becomes can Newtek and LW3DG pull it off. Until then, Lightwave's use will be limited."

Having vastly more people proficient at using Lightwave will increase the studio install base; so getting as many people as possible learning lightwave will have the knock on effect of increasing commercial license sales later on (which is why a lot of the big companies already push their educational versions for free).

ShadowMystic
10-16-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm not 100% sure what the print banner is but there certainly is no watermark on renders or limits on things like render size - having used the free/edu version myself for some time I have never seen anything like that.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7165610/Max.PNG

Perhaps it is as literal as it sounds, I.E hitting "Print" in the render window puts a banner on the print? (I'll check when I get chance).

As for the duration, a few years back when they first introduced the free versions it was based on how long your course ran for; so a 2 year license for a 2 year course.

But I don't think there is any time limit any more as I know several people who still run the software (plus have upgraded to the new versions as they have been released) for much longer than 2 years (myself included, still for education purposes of course) and when I personally access my educational account there is no mention of any time limits.

I take onboard your point about cost of purchasing later though but I still think Lightwave would benefit far more from getting more people into it in the first place and making the educational version free or at least cheap enough for a 16 year old to buy (I.E 40, or the cost of the average computer game here in the UK) is the way to go.

Thanks for the info about the purchase issue btw; I know it's a reseller issue but any help to sort it out is going to be very useful :)


@ShadowMystic
"Serious students will pay for a license to the software they need if it will get them the job."

That's all well and good for people studying at uni level but my students have just left school and are at least 5 years worth of education away from that job; many of them don't even know fully what they wan't to do as a career.

"It isn't that Lightwave is a paid student edition! I have said it already, but unless Lightwave increases its studio install base. Lightwave is well known for being the TV go to. It has to be more than that. Question becomes can Newtek and LW3DG pull it off. Until then, Lightwave's use will be limited."

Having vastly more people proficient at using Lightwave will increase the studio install base; so getting as many people as possible learning lightwave will have the knock on effect of increasing commercial license sales later on (which is why a lot of the big companies already push their educational versions for free).

Supply does not increase demand. You just end up with more students competing for limited work.

fablefox
10-16-2012, 07:40 PM
I'm not following that logic when comparing competing products.

The lowest price I have seen someone pay to go from a free student Maya to a commercial license is $1800.

The Newtek Lightwave path from educational to commercial is $900 cheaper than this competition.

There is a reason why the competition needs to give away student versions for free. Are you recommending that Newtek raises their commercial price on LW to be like these competing apps? Be careful what you wish for.

$900 less? Yes. But you must also see what it can do compared to LW. You must be realistic there too, I think. Unless LW == Maya in feature point (including plug-in marketplace, game engine support, mind you). Do we really need to go there? There are reason why Maya charged that price and still control the animation market.

That's OK you are not following the logic, but other people do. If someone was given an option, I'm sure they will use a free tool to study. And once they invested 2 or 3 years of personal study on a software and workflow, does $900 even matter? Specially considering software popularity and market support?

You can say software developer raises commercial price to support the free version, but not all does that. Some looked at the big picture:

a) They knew people who won't use it to make money possibly use pirated version. And torrent is soo easy these days.
b) They can use it for free advertising <-- main point!
c) People use the free version to create free tutorials and teach/train each other on youtube and blogs. This create users (read the invested 2 years above)
d) The more people know this software, then the more companies prefer to use this software. And this is AD real target market.

Look, AD gave FaceRobot with SI for free which once was a $150,000 piece of software if I'm correct. I'm not sure if this are the company that you want to accuse of increasing software price to support the free version. Besides, they are already making money from the school. The "student" that download app from students.autodesk.com is NOT their concern in generating $$$.

Last but not least (since I'm busy at the moment) I was referring to upgrade from LW 10 edu to LW 11 edu. There are people out there that think LW 11 should have been LW 10.5, and realizing that LW 11 gets a LW 11.5 pissed off those that didn't upgrade, but I think I already past that. My point is if AD can give, every year, a new version for free, can't LW Group at least gave those who already PURCHASED into LW educational version a free upgrade to latest educational version so that they can keep current on LW technology (like Python, for instance).

Anyway, that is my opinion. And yes, LW group can also choose of not following the logic like you do, but if they are painting themselves into the corner they only have themselves to blame.

In game engine, Unity starts with FREE (even for commercial) that it actually drive UDK to follow suit which drive CryEngine to do the same. I was a hobbyist long enough to see how it affect the marketplace. From a lot of game engine that you heard about to only the big three (Unity, UDK & CryEngine). GarageGames get sold all the time and almost died and now they are releasing it free of charge, open source under MIT license to save it, which I don't know if it will work because there are almost no tutorial or books on Torque3D.

Which come to think of it, Blender is more popular than LW in that regard (video tutorials and books). And now I heard Blender was used on Red Dwarf. Take it as you want. One thing for sure, C4D is now free for student. i'm sure they have thought enough before pulling such move.

geo_n
10-16-2012, 10:44 PM
One thing not mentioned is software perception and image. You can give away software for free it wont matter if there's nothing really cool being made in xyz app. The current and next generation of artist will not use it unless you show them what it can do and how many people use it. LW shows a lot of ships in the siggraph reel. They're not so interesting outside the sci-fi geeks. Messiah is a powerful ca tool and sold for so cheap but look where it is still. Same for blender, slow acceptance even though its powerful enugh and totally free. Modo got sold off to try and play on the big leagues that lw was once a part of. They can give away all these appz no one would care. People only care how spiderman was made in maya. How the third and seventh was made in max. How triple AAA games are made in softimage. Big and popular projects make software relevant and students will be asking to use the appz that made them.

fablefox
10-17-2012, 02:58 AM
There is also the psychology "barrier of entry". To people who wanted to 'try', dishing out credit card and purchasing software is a barrier, something that Blender, Houdini, AD and C4D doesn't have.

There are also investment of man hours of trainings.

Or books.

Or tutorials DVD.

But personally I think AD is focusing on man hours investment. When you already spent 3 to 4 years studying a software because you downloaded it for free, it simply a moot point if it $800 extra.

raymondtrace
10-17-2012, 10:56 AM
We need to be clear about comparing LW to other student version apps when we discuss a barrier to entry. Free AD student apps are only offered to students that attend learning institutions (explicitly: faculty, student ...or veteran/unemployed through the AD Assistance Program). These apps are not offered freely to the independent learner/hobbyist.

The barrier to learn this software is already down if the student has access to it at their school. No student needs to dish out a credit card to learn either LW or AD tools if they already have them at their school. It is unlikely that a student is going to be interested in a free student version of PROGRAM Y if their school is teaching PROGRAM X. Because as you illustrated, there is still a significant cost in learning one of these apps on your own. Students are only going to be interested in the tool that they are being taught. And they already have access to that tool at their school. This makes the argument for free student software as a way to introduce software a little weak. The school has already introduced the student to the program.

fablefox
10-17-2012, 02:05 PM
We need to be clear about comparing LW to other student version apps when we discuss a barrier to entry. Free AD student apps are only offered to students that attend learning institutions (explicitly: faculty, student ...or veteran/unemployed through the AD Assistance Program). These apps are not offered freely to the independent learner/hobbyist.

The barrier to learn this software is already down if the student has access to it at their school. No student needs to dish out a credit card to learn either LW or AD tools if they already have them at their school. It is unlikely that a student is going to be interested in a free student version of PROGRAM Y if their school is teaching PROGRAM X. Because as you illustrated, there is still a significant cost in learning one of these apps on your own. Students are only going to be interested in the tool that they are being taught. And they already have access to that tool at their school. This makes the argument for free student software as a way to introduce software a little weak. The school has already introduced the student to the program.

Let me clarify a few thing and add a bit of logical thinking.

Point 1)
a) Houdini is free for EVERYONE who want to study it. This has been mentioned several times in this thread, in case you missed it.
b) While when I register for student.autodesk.com they asked for my student ID (less two years ago). It was said (but I can't confirm this myself, having already an account) that AD think this checking this for each student is time consuming, and decided to drop it, hence, anyone can create an account there and select self study, and download the software just like that. To AD it seems, if they were to block it, people would go to torrent anyway. Might as well as let them join and bombard them with weekly advertising. This is not shocking since AD used to release SoftImage Mod Tool for free (for everyone) and also GMAX (also for everyone). By now they probably throw their hand in the air, telling themselves to just name it Student Version, give it away for free as a good marketing, and call it a day.

Point 2)
Choices. Even if LW want to go a FREE in case you are a CONFIRMED student, this is still a good thing. A university could teach Houdini, C4D, Maya, Blender or whatnot and yet that student, could still choose to use LW if they wanted. A student, even if their teacher teaches Maya, if they wanted to be TD, can learn Houdini for free. If their uni teaches Maya and s/he wanted to do arch-vis, can learn Max for free. And vice versa. Even if the uni teaches AD, if s/he prefer motion graphics, now s/he can learn Cinema 4D for free. By now the only true 'full app' that is missing out is Lightwave. (I still consider Modo a modeller - long story).

And if we were to include Vue, there is PLE version. For everyone.

fablefox
10-17-2012, 02:25 PM
Come to think of it Mod Tool and GMAX was a success. I mean, just look at what software game engines support? They already popular, and they cemented by releasing such version. Houdini did the right thing when you can (AFAIK) buy the $99 version and can use it commercially to create models for Torque3D. Nice idea, wrong engine.

Addendum: From the wikipedia on Autodesk Maya:

"Users who are students or enthusists can download a full educational version from the Autodesk Education community."

Whoa. I thought it was a hush hush secret. I didn't know it now mentioned in Wikipedia.

Not to mention that Maya was provided as PLE for quite awhile (even under AD).

http://www.pcworld.com/article/132217/article.html

It seems when they pulled the PLE, they just provide the student.autodesk.com.

This is why I don't really get it when people said giving free version will have to increase price (historically, Maya price goes down. the same with Max).

So, what was it with AD not giving free version to anyone again? As far as my simple investigation goes, that is not the case.

raymondtrace
10-17-2012, 03:06 PM
...
a) Houdini is free for EVERYONE who want to study it. This has been mentioned several times in this thread, in case you missed it.

b) While when I register for student.autodesk.com they asked for my student ID (less two years ago). It was said (but I can't confirm this myself, having already an account) that AD think this checking this for each student is time consuming, and decided to drop it, hence, anyone can create an account there and select self study...


a) Houdini is not really free. The free Apprentice version is as crippled as Lightwave's Discovery mode, which is also free to EVERYONE.

b) The AD license is quite clear. If you register for a free student version when you do not qualify for it, you are violating the license... even if Autodesk does not get around to verifying your qualification as a student. Violating AD's student license in this way would be no different than grabbing a pirated version. A license violation is a license violation.

There is a benefit to AD when license violators choose the 'student' path instead of the 'pirate' path. The 'student' user registers with AD. While AD may not check your student status at registration, their online licensing system will most certainly check to see if a student license is being run from an IP address of a known business. Google for stories where AD and BSA sue companies for license violations. They are aggressive in enforcing their license. AD can recover more than just a commercial license fee when that student license is abused. They can also recover assumed legal fees and BSA administration costs. This makes that free student version very profitable to AD.

I have the sense that this is growing to a needlessly argumentative discussion. I have not "missed" anything. I've been a student. I've taught (high school/college, poor students, wealthy students). And I work in the field. I'm pretty familiar with the needs of the student, the school, the studio and the software vendor. Is "FREE" appealing? Sure. But it has never equated to increased adoption. Maya gained marketshare before the advent of the crippled PLE version. Software's popularity is based on how useful it is, not if it is given freely.

(Are you really relying on a wikipedia entry instead of AD's own licensing? Please click the wikipedia footnotes that lead to AD's page that specifies "who is eligible". This topic has gone nuts.)

ShadowMystic
10-17-2012, 06:52 PM
It seems some sincerely want Lightwave3D to survive, grow, and thrive. Others just sound cheap.

fablefox
10-17-2012, 07:54 PM
@raymondtrace

There is a difference between limitation that you cannot use it commercially (render size, no render farm support, watermark, etc) and limitation you cannot even use it to learn (as what have been commented previously by other people and even Chuck start asking if the limit need to be increased).

I'm too busy to go and check AD licensing but if nobody bothered to go and fix the wikipedia, it seems that AD is running on honor code for the 'enthusiast'. As I have said and provide links before, AD is known for releasing PLE for everyone (which doesn't limit you in studying it) or Mod Tool or GMAX (which good enough that you can mod games). And seriously, why using edu for commercially at studios? That is even way off topic.

@ShadowMystic

I don't know what you mean by some are cheap. The cheap one already went to torrent sites. I'm just pointing out the obvious and fix the fact.

And to keep on topic, which is educational version, for student, for free: Houdini, AD, and now C4D doing it. With C4D go as far as the file generated is compatible with commercial version (which also what LW edu do, except LW edu is not free). Houdini give you one time file conversion once you upgrade, so all your work is not lost either once you go commercial.

That's it. I'm back to work.

geo_n
10-17-2012, 10:59 PM
We need to be clear about comparing LW to other student version apps when we discuss a barrier to entry. Free AD student apps are only offered to students that attend learning institutions (explicitly: faculty, student ...or veteran/unemployed through the AD Assistance Program). These apps are not offered freely to the independent learner/hobbyist.

The barrier to learn this software is already down if the student has access to it at their school. No student needs to dish out a credit card to learn either LW or AD tools if they already have them at their school. It is unlikely that a student is going to be interested in a free student version of PROGRAM Y if their school is teaching PROGRAM X. Because as you illustrated, there is still a significant cost in learning one of these apps on your own. Students are only going to be interested in the tool that they are being taught. And they already have access to that tool at their school. This makes the argument for free student software as a way to introduce software a little weak. The school has already introduced the student to the program.

I was able to create an account for a student version and filled up some forms online and got the download for maya. So I think they probably changed their policy. Everyone can download them. There's even one for out of work professionals but I didn't try it.

raymondtrace
10-18-2012, 07:34 AM
...I'm too busy to go and check AD licensing but if nobody bothered to go and fix the wikipedia, it seems that AD is running on honor code for the 'enthusiast'. As I have said and provide links before, AD is known for releasing PLE for everyone (which doesn't limit you in studying it) or Mod Tool or GMAX (which good enough that you can mod games)....

That is the problem. You are too busy to research this topic but you have demonstrated an excess of time to make uninformed claims about these products.

How is citing discontinued programs like gMax aiding your point of view? How is a product that is no longer developed and marketed a success in the market? Isn't this the poster child for not offering a free product?

PLE, which was indeed released to everyone, was a crippled version... similar to Houdini's free Apprentice and Lightwave's Discovery mode. This discussion is going in circles and there is no hope of pulling out of the turn until you really learn about these "free" programs and how they were not any more free than Lightwave's Discovery mode.


...And seriously, why using edu for commercially at studios? That is even way off topic...This is absolutely on topic. License abuse is why you do not see every developer offering a full featured free version to people posing as students. The fact that you cannot see this after several pages of discussion on this topic makes me wonder if your intent is simply to be a leech off the work of others.


I was able to create an account for a student version and filled up some forms online and got the download for maya. So I think they probably changed their policy. Everyone can download them. There's even one for out of work professionals but I didn't try it.

When you signed up for an account, did you bother to read the license? Did you bother to read who is entitled to download the software? It is true that everyone can download. But everyone can download a pirated version as well. If you are not qualified for the AD educational license, you are violating the license. This topic has gone well beyond nutty.

kopperdrake
10-18-2012, 07:42 AM
This thread proves this a tough nut to crack. I myself thought that a free edition would be the way to go, but having read Raymondtrace's post I'm leaning towards his stance.

At the end of the day, most institutions will teach the software that is used in the majority of the eventual workplaces their course is aimed towards - it's part of their sales pitch. Often the lecturers will have worked in the industry, and will know that software. Most students will know which software is also used where, and will strive to learn that software in the hope that it makes them more saleable at the end of the course.

At the end of the day, most larger workplaces won't really care what software a student knows - if they have limited real-work experience then the main thing they will be looking for is raw talent, especially if the student it straight out of university/college/further education.

It sounds as though the LWG is offering a decent in-road into the use of LW for students. Free is always better as you are more likely to get your software installed on a student's computer, but their offering isn't bad at $100, for what they get. However, the real challenge is to get enough seats of LW into the workplace, to the point where there are enough jobs using it that it's prominent when everyone looks to what software to teach and learn. It sounds as though Rob is going the right way - make LW work nicely with the other 3D packages, get it into the workplace, and get it in that list of the main packages used. If it *is* already being used, then hit those education institutions near to the places of work and market it as being a safe package for education to invest in.

geo_n
10-18-2012, 09:28 AM
When you signed up for an account, did you bother to read the license? Did you bother to read who is entitled to download the software? It is true that everyone can download. But everyone can download a pirated version as well. If you are not qualified for the AD educational license, you are violating the license. This topic has gone well beyond nutty.

I am violating the license because I'm not a student :D When I meant everyone, I meant school related people who want to study 3D since this is an 3D education license thread.

The requirements, its there when you login

"Who is eligible to join the Autodesk Education Community?
Scenario
You want to find out whether you're eligible to participate in the Autodesk Education Community.

Solution
The Autodesk Education Community is a password-protected website that provides access to free student versions of Autodesk software.

To join the Education Community, you must be one of the following:

Faculty Member - an employee at a primary or secondary educational institution or any degree-granting or certificate-granting educational institution or any learning, teaching or training facilities


Student - individual enrolled at a recognized degree-granting or certificate-granting educational institution for three (3) or more credit hours in a degree-granting or certificate granting education program or in a nine (9) month or longer certificate program.


Autodesk Assistance Program Participant - either a veteran or unemployed individual who has previously worked in the architecture, engineering, design or manufacturing industries.
Note: You may need to provide proof that you fulfill one of the above eligibility requirements.


A student is an individual enrolled at a recognized degree-granting or certificate-granting educational institution for three (3) or more credit hours in a degree-granting or certificate granting education program or in a nine (9) month or longer certificate program, and upon request by Autodesk is able to provide proof of such enrollment.


Important Note :The Autodesk Student Version software incorporates all the functionality of our professional licenses, but includes a print banner making the software inappropriate for professional, commercial, or for-profit purposes. Autodesk Student Version software may not be used in the classroom or lab for instructional purposes, or for commercial or for-profit purposes. Annual licenses of Autodesk student software are not eligible for product upgrade or transfer to a commercial license. View print banner sample."


This doesn't mean anything though. As I said you can give software for free, blender, or super cheap, messiah, but its not going to change the landscape of CG away from AD. School is one thing but real world is another. Big projects, popular movies, interesting stuff make popular software.
If anyone can conquer design viz, games, films then that software is a winner.

Skonk
10-18-2012, 04:42 PM
It seems some sincerely want Lightwave3D to survive, grow, and thrive. Others just sound cheap.

While you resort to "cheap" shots (see what I did there).

I own a commercial lightwave license and have been responsible for the purchase of over 40 Lightwave 9 and 30 LW 11 educational licenses; yet I still want my students to have free access to the software so they can work with it at home and in their continued education after leaving my college.

Call me cheap all you like but as many of the bigger (i.e. more successful than newtek) companies have realised; making student licensing free IS a way to help the software grow and survive.

While you may think that some of us sound cheap; I think some people here sound bitter at the thought of other people not having to pay for something that they had to and don't actually care about the benefits of getting more people out there using lightwave and how that could help the software keep going.

fablefox
10-18-2012, 07:50 PM
@raymondtrace

1) When I'm mentioning the old PLE, GMAX and ModTool, I'm debunking someone fact that AD never release software for free. The truth is that AD did that enough to get a foothold. I know they are all discontinued now.

2) Did you ever went to SideFX website or fully read my previous post? They fully allow saving, and when you go commercial, they have a one time conversion from the noncommercial file into commercial file, so all your work is not lost. So EVERYONE can USE and SAVES their project and when gone commercial CAN CONVERT ALL THEIR FILES. LW discover limit up to 400 point per layer and I don't know if lightwave group that someone can learn fracture without saving their files (from what i read at the forum, fracture easily hit the limit).

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=589&Itemid=221

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?76225-Lightwave-Discovery-Mode

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?125864-lw-11-trial/page3

I'm done with this thread. Already put down my money for LW10 edu anyway back then. Besides, like CORE, Lightwave group will do whatever they felt right no matter whatever the users thinks.

raymondtrace
10-19-2012, 10:28 AM
...1) ...I'm debunking someone fact that AD never release software for free. ...

I'm trying to recall where there was such a comment to debunk but I'm not having any success.

There is certainly a valid point of view that software vendors should not require a person to pay to learn a tool. But if a developer is to offer such free access, they need to engineer a system that prevents license abuse. This is a very tricky matter. No two applications described in this thread have been engineered to offer the same free access. They all employ different limits on the type of person, the institution, the presence of a watermark, the type of file formats, the size of the rendered image, the complexity of the objects, the amount of program features, and the duration of the license.

It is difficult to argue for LW to be just like the others when the others are simply not alike.

EDIT: I encourage someone with a lot of time to kill to truly research these differences and post a matrix that shows a comparison between these apps (audience [school vs student], pricing, functionality, license duration, etc.). Educators make similar comparison tables when they define curriculum and set budgets. And then they have to update them each year because the landscape is always changing. Those of us that have worked in education know how LW has been a consistent value for the school and the student. That is why we are here.

Emmanuel
10-21-2012, 11:21 AM
As an instructor currently, I teach my students Max and Maya. I use LightWave all the time, but for young people startng out, I can hardly recommend LightWave. First because of the two modules situation, and secondly because of the job market. They are in debt when they leave university, and I want them to be marketbale andquickly find a job to pay their loans back. I now I should give them the choice, many use Blender, too, but I feel bad about limiting their job perspectives.