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TerryS
10-29-2003, 04:49 PM
Since installing the patch, when I use Edit Properties and or the Control Tree I have noticed the response time slows to a crawl. An example, when I tried to position a resized, cropped box I first thought the application had lockedup. This is on new projects so there shouldn't be a conversion issue. I have double checked my preferences and everything appears to be set correctly.

I am also having problems with play back studdering even when the green bar indicates rendering is complete.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,
TerryS

tmon
10-29-2003, 05:04 PM
Same here. I've had to resort to rendering RTV's and then replacing the rendered file in the timeline.

Supermicro P4DC6+ Dual Xeon 2GB RDRAM, W2KPro SP4, latest nVidia drivers....

bradl
10-29-2003, 08:40 PM
Force Render Filter (Effects folder) works fine for studder with green light for me, but wish green light was accurate...

Refresh does get slow with lots of items on the timeline. Try turning off all icons and it will speed up greatly (upside down triangle upper right of timeline). I also clean up the timeline using subprojects on complex projects.

JReble
10-30-2003, 05:57 AM
Okay, this is like the 10th time the issue with timeline studdering and a faulty "ready" green light have been noted. I have been willing to give Newtek the benefit of the doubt, but this is getting idiotic. I even upgraded my system to significantly greater than new minimum specs after lousy performance with VT3 compared to VT2 and still I have these issues.

I don't know which is bothering me more, the fact that the problem remains or the fact the Newtek is not even fessing up to it as a legitimate problem and at least acknowledging that they are working on it. The same thing has gone on for months and months with regard to the audio level drop on recorded clips and still nothing has happened despite a new commercial upgrade and yet another patch.

I'm taking silence to mean they cannot or will not fix these problems. When the issues remain after stopping development on one version and charging for a new version with the same problems, there is little else to conclude.

Well what about it Newtek??? Anybody gonna prove me wrong?

JReble
11-08-2003, 01:01 PM
Cough!

:rolleyes:

ted
11-08-2003, 06:52 PM
Yeah, I wish NewTek would make the software run faster. They suck.

Of course, that means getting rid of the splines and most other cool stuff they put into VT3.

I guess you can always go back to VT2!:p

NewTek is working on this constantly.
They've added the ability to dump the various icons on the timeline, and sped up many areas of duplicate commands.
They haven't abandoned or ignored us in any way shape or form.

For now, I'll take all the tools they've added in VT3 and live with it.

JReble
11-10-2003, 05:27 AM
Again, the award for best ill-informed spokesperson for a company he doesn't work for goes to Ted.

I'm glad you're so enlightened about all this as usual Ted, but again, your hardly relevant opinion on this topic is neither warranted or helpful. Newtek has not responded to these issues appropriately or at all. Their complete silence and refusal to acknowledge legitimate user experience with these problems or even the existence of the very issues is in no way minimized by your personal opinion, rosey at it may be.

Newtek apparently will not touch the issues and that is not a good sign. I'm not about to accept your ever present rosey endorsements on their behalf as anything of substance from Newtek about the issue at hand. So again Newtek, what about it?

Recorded audio levels?????

Studering timeline playback???

Irrelevant greenlight which doesn't allow a timeline to fully render???

Any official word is better than nothing.

wvp
11-10-2003, 06:41 AM
JReble,
I would make this an "official" question by sending it to Newtek customer support. If it is not responded to their, then you can (& should) make a big stink about it

JReble
11-10-2003, 08:06 AM
Been there. Done that. Got the T-Shirt.

I went through all available channels about the audio recording level issue months ago and got the usual result; A request for more info about my system and statements that the issue was not being experienced by other users.

Now, I'm not faulting Newtek for that kind of response. Virtually every support department I've run across ends up providing that kind of response because A never talks to B or A never listened or made the connection to C. You get that when one user talks to one tech support person who jumps to what they feel is the most common culprit. They had helped very effectively with an earlier issue related to my B.O.B. but this is another matter.

Point is I've done that, and it just results in more run around. I'm not asking Newtek to magically solve a problem overnight. I just want to cut through all the we said, they said B.S. and get some of these issues acknowledged so we might have a chance to get some resolution via tech support after everyone there quits thinking or pretending these are not legitimate problems. If we can just face the issues up front, we can build from there. This has been the problem with the audio level drop for months and still some users are confidently posting their rumours about it being an intended function. That's bunk, but the only official word on it has been from Paul who said it was not intended and was being worked on, but he would have to get back to us about it. Still no further word, so I'm not about to go back through the other routes to have the whole runaround begin again.

Here everybody has the benefit of seeing the results of other users instead of just one tech support person on a 1 on 1 call or e-mail. Sure we have to take them with a grain of salt, but when enough evidence is there it requires some response from the developer. If someone is doing something wrong or misunderstanding some function of the software, Newtek is usually very helpful and responsive in correcting them and solving their problem. When many people are experiencing problems that appear to clearly be related to software glitches, there is often complete silence. I'm completely reasonable and I think most people here are. Nobody expects perfection from Newtek, but we want to know they are identifying and working on problems. But deliberately ignoring issues raised by multiple customers is no way to keep us reasonable.

If I and the other users with these issues are completely off base or are imagining these problems then Newtek can tell us so. Nobody is going to get anywhere though, by ignoring the problems, pretending they don't exist and thinking happy thoughts. I wouldn't even be bringing any attention to these issues if anyone at Newtek via 1 on 1 e-mail, phone call, or any other means were to simply note that they are issues that are being addressed. Leaving us all to constantly wonder if the problems are limited to our system alone is no way to go.

Jim_C
11-10-2003, 10:50 AM
Well I heard they are working on and may be close to another patch, so we can hope.




jim

ted
11-10-2003, 03:45 PM
JRebel, I'm not saying these problems don't exist, just that NewTek, (as I demonstrated above), IS working on these issues, along with many more, including adding better tools for us to use.

I don't blame you for being upset if you're not getting any response from NewTek, but they are constantly working to improve the software.

My response experience with NewTek has shown anything but abandonment. But as many have told me, I don't give up until I get answers.

I've got minimal stuttering on the timeline and have remedied it by using the force render. More now then before, but I wouldn't want to give up the new features either.
I constantly hear people on the forums ask for stuff even if it means losing some of the real-timeness of the VT. Maybe we are starting to enter that area. I don't know.

I wish you and all of us luck with these issues. We are all on the same side. We just have to remember, NewTek has a long list of customer demands. Setting the priority is usually a result of constant reminders from us.

Hopefully polite reminders though. Thatís all Iím saying.

Rich Deustachio
11-10-2003, 05:00 PM
I have also notice that after the latest patch VT3 will not play as many streams without stuttering even after getting a green light which makes me render that section of the timleline out. I would upgrade my dual 1.7 xeons, 1 gig of ram and the 6 SCSI 73 gig drives if I knew for sure it would solve the problem, but I have seen others with faster systems than mine having the same results. It's not a show stopper for me but it is a problem that shouldn't be there. I also agree that the audio level problem exists and shouldn't be there as well.

It would be nice for NewTek to maybe post a list of known problems so we know it has been verified by them and is being worked on. This might make the waiting more bearable.

wvp
11-10-2003, 10:07 PM
Jreble - NO arguments from me. Except one - you got a T-shirt? I didn't get no stinking T-shirt! :)

Rich - I believe the minimum CPU for VT3 is a 2.4. That said, I agree with you no point in upgrading until you know it will solve issues for you.

As for a list of problems being worked on - I too would love to see this as well as a list of features with projected dates (next build/next year/hard to say, etc). I discussed this on the form a long time ago.
Paul responded to it and said essentially the list was not needed as Andrew was putting out a monthly? newsletter, a "state of Newtek" if you will. Well, I read the first one. I do not believe any others were "published". Unfortunately for us, I do not think Newtek will do this because it goes against normal marketing. NO ONE publishes a list of what is wrong with their product

bradl
11-10-2003, 11:09 PM
Bingo!

I wish they weren't so tight lipped, but I don't hold out much hope of that ever changing, it's the nature of the beast...

bradl
11-10-2003, 11:17 PM
I have something a little off topic and I may post this again sometime somewhere else.

We we were discussing today something that would be very benefically to all. A list or FAQ of all the little secrets, workarounds, shortcomings, bugs, got-ya's, etc. that all of the users have discovered and shared. I mean a real down and dirty list, not some marketing hype from the front office FAQ like so many products push.

Paul has the Tips and Tricks list but that is mostly VT2, scattershot and not really what I would like to see. I know it would take a significant effort on someone or ones' part but man it would be nice. Hosted somewhere and updated. Catagorized, indexed, etc. It would have to be up to date. It would be the first place you would go when you have a problem.

What's everyone's opinion. What are some suggestions to make this happen?

Jim_C
11-11-2003, 12:25 AM
Well,

Its a good idea Brad, but just think of why Newtek doesn't support or set up something like that.
If you owned (Of course you may I do not know) a company and there was a list on the web where your competitiors or prospective clients could go and see a list of all the things that DO NOT work right with your product. Not very good PR.
I realize you can just keep up with this lift to find out many of them, but to have a long list spelled out for all to see probably doesn't sit well with marketing.

But like I said to begin with, It is a good idea, and I would take part.


jim

Jim Capillo
11-11-2003, 07:26 AM
Well, the competitors could (and likely DO) come here and read all the rants and problems that folks are having, so having a place that categorizes and offers solutions wouldn't be much different - the only problem I see is a huge nightmare for whoever is running/moderating the board. Keeping rants, flames and emotions out would be the biggest problem. The old Trinity Central started out like that and later became one of the flamethrowers that took down Play (not to mention that the product never worked as advertised). No one wanted to buy something that SO many people were talking negatively about.

So I'm kind of on the fence on this one. It's a good idea - IF someone would keep the reins on the rants/flames/etc.

Jim_C
11-11-2003, 08:28 AM
I agree completely Jim, I'm sure they do check out the boards for weaknesses. We would if situations reversed.
I guess my point was just a possible reason why Newtek hasn't made an official post that says (paraphrasing)
-Ok this is a list of all the things we can't get right and are screwed up in our software and here are some work arounds that may fix them.-

They read these posts, they know problems people have and just because they don't answer every complaint with some form of acknowledgement doesn't mean they aren't taking it all into consideration and working on fixes as fast as possible.

As for a board containing grievences, broken items, and work arounds I'ld throw down a Buck Fifty that Newtek would prefer it didn't take place under their roof but at a non affiliated forum of some sort.

But again, I think it's a good idea and would take part.

jim

Paul Lara
11-11-2003, 08:50 AM
The largest problems with that notion are:

It is a moving target and takes a ton of time to keep accurate and up to date, as things get fixed on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis
It takes discernment to weed out user error from faulty code
Since customers cannot "pop the hood" and examine the code, they have no way to determine WHAT is causing the crash/lockup/problem; is it truly a line of NewTek code, or is it the customer's anti-virus software?
Who out there is going to play Chief Entemologist and spend hour after hour trying to duplicate a buggy behavior, or to verify that indeed a bug is fixed? It's not glamorous, and would completely overhelm whomever decided to do this as a 'public service' to the VT community
Without thorough vetting, such lists rapidly achieve an unacceptably high 'signal to noise' ratio, and become unuseable.
The obvious marketing poison that such a list could become.
If NewTek says 'that's not a bug' how would such disagreements be settled?
Many more...those are just the primary reasons. :(


That said, there IS a Video Toaster Troubleshooting guide (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/VideoToaster/Downloads/Troubleshooting_Video_Toaster.pdf) that is in PDF, and therefore searchable. It has not yet been updated to include some VT[3]-specific issues, but is very helpful for a fast lookup!

ACross
11-11-2003, 09:23 AM
JReble (and others),

It is a bit hard to make out exactly what the cause of the problem is from this thread alone. From what I know of the patch (which is quite a lot) there is nothing within the SW that should cause any kind of slow-down ... with one exception which was that there was a trade-off made between keeping a large number of still images loaded and regenerating the previews for them. The issue here was to avoid massive memory use in projects with large numbers of stills, we have VT-Edit a slight preference towards freeing the memory, but at the obvious expense of when those images are needed later needing to reload them. On par, with my machine here this did infact speed things up because it reduced the memory usage of VT-Edit. In some massive project tests, I found that performing block still operations of 400 stills rand abour 30% faster after the change. In other areas, we made things significantly faster ... or so I believe ;)

In any case, if you are noticing massive speed differences, I would suspect that something else is going on because the SW is essentially very similar, but simply with bug fixes. With regards to the Ui slow-down, the first thing I would look at is disabling the nVidia desktop manager everything ... this is known to make things far slower because it intercepts a number of window open calls and does additional processing. For some reason, this seems to hammer VT pretty badly and cause it to run a lot slower than it does without the Display Manager running. One other thing, although it is unlikely to make much difference in this day and age, is that VT UI will prefer running in 32bit color over 16bit color ... you should notice a 10-20% speed difference. If you are still finding the UI slow, please drop me an email and we can work through some other possibilities.

On the second issue mentioned of VT-Edit performance and not rendering in real-time. I would verify that your cache settings are set up correctly. Installing the patch probably wiped out any old settings you had, so this would definitely be a first thing to look. In particular, check that your cache drives did not get reset to being your system drive, etc... (Also ... this has been said before, but VT[3] has a very strong preference for P4's over AMD's. If you have a choice, go with a P4.)

Finally, on any audio level problems. If you are having issues here, and have an SX8, and have not had it modified since you purchased it. Please call our technical support to verify whether you need to have it updated. Some of the SX8s we shipped need updating to have their audio levels improved (but not all of them.) Technical support can help you on this one better than I can because I don't know all teh serial nos etc... by heart.

If none of the above explains the issues that you are having. Drop me a private email (address below) and I can work on solving these problems with you.

Andrew Cross,
VP of SW Engineering,
NewTek

Email:
across AT newtek DOT com

JReble
11-11-2003, 10:59 AM
Thanks Dude. :)

That's the most helpful information I've gotten through any means so far. I'll check every avenue you suggested and follow up.

I don't mean to come down on you guys at all, but ya gotta understand the frustration some of us have when we can connect with several other users having the same problems and we can't seem to find any "Official" word on it one way or another. Case in point; the audio recording level issue...There are lots of folks saying it is intentional, others have said it's only on certain systems, still others have said it is a known problem. Never anywhere, until today, did I hear that it could be related to an older B.O.B.. I'll look into that, but I'm pretty sure many have noted the problem without the B.O.B. as well. In fact, I don't recall anyone saying that it was not a problem for them, just that they could live with it or they didn't notice, but I could be wrong.

Keeping that troubleshooting document completely up to date as much as possible would help a lot. You could simply note experiences reported by multiple users within that document so everyone could bring their experiences to bear to help isolate the problem. You wouldn't then be accepting that a software error exists, but rather noting issues that have been reported on various platforms and conditions. Maybe a form that users can fill out on line that others can search to find a common thread. Then other users could check the box that said this helped me too. Works for some other developers including Adobe. I don't know how many times I've searched their knowledgebase to find my problem is being experienced by others with similar hardware or something. Being limited to the forums for this kind of group troubleshooting is confusing and problematic at best since opinions and interpretations vary so widely. I know you guys are way too busy to respond with every issue, but some of them become issues for so many that something has to give somewhere. If it's us doing something wrong, our equipment, or the software, there needs to be some way to let everybody know in an official way.

ACross
11-11-2003, 11:51 AM
JReble,

Sorry it took us so long to respond to this. I do not personally look over these forums every day and so it took Paul to draw my attention to this thread. In general, we try to be as open and responsive as possible and it is normaslly just an oversight if it ever seems different (honest !.)

In general, I read and respond ont he Yahoo VTNT mailing list every day (I prefer mailing lists personally) and if anyone wants me to respond on here, just drop me an email with the thread to look at and I can jump on.

Thanks,

Andrew

wvp
11-11-2003, 09:45 PM
Thanks Paul & Andrew for posting. I think your comments (in general) go a long way toward showing the public that Newtek listens & acts on issues it's customers have.
I too like the idea of a searchable Knowledge base. Reported issues & solutions as well as reported issues with a "we have not been able to verify this" would help A LOT. You can't use windows these days without accessing their knowledge base for help on issues.
IN addition to this, I feel very strongly that there should not be one feature, one setting OR one message that a user has access to that is not documented in plain english.
Case in point, How many users know what each setting the preference panel does & why you might want to adjust them? Or this: Does anyone know what "Validating Settings" means in the capture panel? I diden't (until I called tech support). I still am not sure how to prevent this [capture stopping] issue from happening.
The knowledge base idea really would go a long way to solving many problems

Rich Deustachio
11-11-2003, 11:28 PM
Thanks for posting Andrew. I had my BOB back to Tech Support for the "Fix" a while back but still experience the drop off of audio levels. If we could get a db level indicator instead of the green, yellow, red audio levels we could give a more specific drop number, but even looking at those level indicators it is obvious that the levels playedback from the timeline are much lower than the levels during capturing. This all seem to have started when the fix for the crackling audio came. If given a choice I would prefer the audio drop over the crackling, but having it output the same levels as captured and have no crackling would be better.

Paul Lara
11-12-2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by wvp
I too like the idea of a searchable Knowledge base. Reported issues & solutions as well as reported issues with a "we have not been able to verify this" would help A LOT. ...The knowledge base idea really would go a long way to solving many problems

And Marketing and Tech Support have been working toward just this goal. Look for the roll-out of our dynamic, searchable online FAQ to appear on our website soon.

:cool:

ted
11-12-2003, 10:36 AM
Nice job NewTek. Oh yeh, Paul and Andrew too!;)

bradl
11-12-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Paul Lara
Look for the roll-out of our dynamic, searchable online FAQ to appear on our website soon.

Man that was quick ;)

Thanks Paul and the Gang

bradl
02-10-2004, 04:09 PM
Look for the roll-out of our dynamic, searchable online FAQ to appear on our website soon Did this ever happen?

RayLarson
02-11-2004, 06:41 AM
Yes..Yes..Yes...I have had the same problems with my VT3 and have gotten no advice. I am not upgrading my bix only ton have the same issues.

Slow loading of projects
Stuttering when Green Light is on
Less Layers
Audio Issues

While I certainly like many of the new features, I don't appreciate T3 Patch2 acts like a turtle compared to T2 Final patch. It's just not a case of slightly slower and more cumbersome to work with, I feel it is a major issue.

Like everyone else, I hope Newtek is taking this issue seriously and making arrangements to deal with it. I have lost 30% or more of my productivity.

wvp
02-11-2004, 09:02 AM
I'm in the same boat too. Two weeks behind now because of the slower version.

Kevin_P
02-15-2004, 07:22 PM
This may sound a little silly... but I was having similar troubles until I did some digging in my BIOS.... apparently my CPU clock speed had been reset to the lowest option, halving the speed of my system. Now, VT3 [and everything else] is MUCH more responsive... :)

Kevin P.