PDA

View Full Version : SIGGRAPH2012 - Modeling Tools



probiner
09-23-2012, 05:30 PM
Ok, so, I saw this video last week and was good to know NT is looking to Modeler. The demo is fast, so it's hard to understand how deep some things go
I do like some stuff and looking forward to see the fully developed, but on the other hand I feel like I must point out some things, even if it's premature at this point. Take it as an apriori constructive criticism/suggestions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXCnvMFxH8

1 - UV Tools
I only see this as an advantage for Mac users (which is fine, we all know you guys need love):
- PLG offers ABF (Make UV) and LCSM (Make UV Fast). Their not perceptible because of the Relaxation. Set it to 0 and there you go.
- PLG offers Area Weight that relaxes the UV to match the 3D space mesh better, essential for organic shapes. Uses selection.
- PLG offers Packing where it fills the UV space with the shells, spaces them, rotates them and sized them according to their relative 3D space size.
- PLG offers additionally Unwelding along UV seams (more important than you guess) and also a Straighten_UV.
- PLG Edge Selection can be stored and reused unlike any LW selection, it can break the UV by surfaces, Atlas, or other UV.

I think there are more important questions about UV's in LW. Like:
- Will LW handle better Discontinuous Points, or it well keep breaking UVs at them when the mesh is cut?
- If a UV is made from only a portion of a connected mesh will the common vertices be white, or as they should, red (discontinuous points)? >video of the bug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw5ZUd8mCxM)
- Will there be a way to use Modeling Tools in the UV Space, or at least a streamlined way to load it in the 3D space, edit it and save it back?
- Transfer UVs?
- Catmull-Clark Subdivision with UV Interpolation (this makes CC useless sometimes)? UV Interpolation solving seam's end points like other apps? >video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3sb_WHUeWU) (observe how Modo, 3D-Coat, Zbrush, Body Paint, etc, solves those specific points on each Interpolation Method. Otherwise it's Fixing textures in Photoshop all along)


2-Edge Slide
Looks ok. Would be intersting to know if it will have numeric inputs like DEdgeSlide (http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=18878981)? "Respect Curvature" option would be very good for organic models.


3-Slice
Resembles "Add Edges" and for what was demoed it's slower than just selecting the edge ring and hit 'L' (connect). If it snaps to vertices's as it seems it's nice.


4-Place Mesh
Looks like a fast and easy OnMove (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuRh9xuMgcQ&t=1m20s). Cool.


5-Heat Shrink
Looks very good. All these background operations are making me hope for a Retopo tool, when Modeler performance is upped.


6-Thicken
I wonder why this is not in Multishift. It could use the two surfaces too. This seems just like a "Cap the opening" option and a divisions options in Multishift to turn it into an Extrude tool.


7-Bevel
Very good. Finally fixed, hopefully it will upgrade into something like Rounder. Curious though how it solves some vertices, always good to have options: image 1 (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/wedgebevel.png) image 2 (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Edge-Bevel-comparison.png)


8-Mesh based axis and origins
Although what is shown it's unimpressive by itself, this is the one I'm more excited about! For long time now, I've been pandering about "Using existing mesh to define custom axis and origins" (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?120669-Modeler&p=1162109&viewfull=1#post1162109). So frustrating to sometimes want to Rotate/Scale/Translate based on a polygon's normal, or two specific vertices, etc and have to recur to a bunch of plugins or poor Translate Plus, when every basic transform tool should be able to have these inputs. Looking forward to see what comes out of this :)


In conclusion. Of course any modeling peep feels good about seeing NT giving attention o modeler, I personally, like others just fear that new features are being developed for a horse that is past is prime, and while I have the notion this is not the future of modeling, you guys made me have more expectations for Modeling in LW, from now on.

Keep up :thumbsup:

Cheers

jwiede
09-23-2012, 07:39 PM
2-Edge Slide
Looks ok. Will it have numeric inputs for distance, percentage and uniformness like DEdgeSlide (http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=18878981)? "Respect Curvature" option would be very good for organic models.
Agreed 100%. Needs full numeric panel support as much as possible to allow precise actions, and definitely needs the "respect/maintain curvature" option like Modo & Trueart's plugin offer (ideally with "live" switching on/off so you can see difference in impact).


6-Thicken
Why is this not in Multishift? It seems that a "Cap the opening" option. This is basicly and Extrude mounted on multishift.
Yep, my first thought was "yet another slightly-different shift tool?". I understand this one's all shiny, new and interactive, but then maybe consolidate some existing tools using this tool's infrastructure? This just feels like a missed opportunity for consolidation.



7-Bevel
Very good. Finally got fixed, hopefully it will upgrade into something like Rounder. Curious though how it solves some vertices, always good to have options: image 1 (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/wedgebevel.png) image 2 (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Edge-Bevel-comparison.png)
I'd very much like to see how the new 'Chamfer' tool deals with various problem situations, including the ones Probiner mentions.


In conclusion. Of course any modeling peep feels good about seeing NT giving attention o modeler, I personally, like others just fear that new features are being developed for a horse that is past is prime, and while I have the notion this is not the future of modeling, you guys made me have more expectations for Modeling in LW, from now on.
I'm glad Newtek's looking at Modeler, no question. That said, Modeler already has too many "similar but slightly different" tools in a number of genres, and at least as shown they seem to be adding yet more. If the plan is to also consolidate/remove the various semi-borked existing tools, and replace them with fewer but properly-functional tools (as I hope it is) then I'm all for it. Oh well, we'll see, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Lewis
09-24-2012, 12:27 AM
Well from what I've seen Chamfer could easily replace Bevel, Edge Bevel and part of rounder (points mode) BUT it needs numeric panel (with cm and percentage options not just %) and rounding segments (like rounder). If they add those that could easily replace 3 tools with one. And that would be good step into consolidation.

probiner
10-25-2012, 11:25 AM
Some Highlights of workflow killers in LW's UVs.

I don't understand the technical reason for the issues, but seems to me if a vertex has more than one representation in the UV space or if that representation does not include all polygons to which that point belong to, all of those representations should be considered discontinuous.

Cheers


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwn0RuZwIwc

Lewis
10-25-2012, 11:36 AM
Nice video and yes i agree with lot of issues you presented here

Just to let you know how you can stop the loop of bandsaw pro. Flip polys after area you want to be last bandsawed poly and bandsawpro will stop when it hits flipped poly :). It's not elegant and it's workaround but it works. OR use CUT tool to cut only selected or select range of polys but then again that one is not interactive so it's always something preventing us to use nice workflow in LWM ;).

probiner
10-25-2012, 12:40 PM
Ah the workaround LW mindset :) Didn't remember to try flip. I stop it by making triangles in both ends.
But yeah... not shooting for workarounds here, since they aren't needed in many other apps, and sometimes they are an incentive to disregard things that are wrong, ehehe.

But hey, who knows, maybe it's already fixed in 11.5 ;)

Oedo 808
10-25-2012, 02:19 PM
But yeah... not shooting for workarounds here, since they aren't needed in many other apps

Thou shalt be cast down and sent forth into the night!

probiner
10-26-2012, 09:07 AM
But but but... it's the truth! :D

Areyos Alektor
10-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Cody Burke still shows a taste of the new LW11.5 tools :

https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/

jwiede
10-28-2012, 02:20 AM
Cody Burke still shows a taste of the new LW11.5 tools :
Which video were you referring to specifically?

ncr100
10-28-2012, 10:35 AM
This 'LightWave Transitioning Tutorial' video I think Areyos may be referring to - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbH234ejkI

1) "Pick Transform" - Normal-based rotate & stretch & move & single-axis move all in one gizmo - http://youtu.be/ZAbH234ejkI?t=9m36s
2) "Edit Edges" - Edge preselection & move & add & remove all in one - http://youtu.be/ZAbH234ejkI?t=13m36s

Areyos Alektor
10-28-2012, 07:09 PM
Sorry to not have been specific enough, Nick saw just :)

But all of his tutorials are doing under LW11.5, he explicitly.

jwiede
10-28-2012, 10:12 PM
This 'LightWave Transitioning Tutorial' video I think Areyos may be referring to - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbH234ejkI

1) "Pick Transform" - Normal-based rotate & stretch & move & single-axis move all in one gizmo - http://youtu.be/ZAbH234ejkI?t=9m36s
2) "Edit Edges" - Edge preselection & move & add & remove all in one - http://youtu.be/ZAbH234ejkI?t=13m36s
Are these newly-created tools for 11.5, or were they implemented as extensions/replacements for existing tools? Seems like the last thing LW needs is yet more cases of n tools doing similar actions.

nickdigital
10-28-2012, 11:29 PM
Are these newly-created tools for 11.5, or were they implemented as extensions/replacements for existing tools? Seems like the last thing LW needs is yet more cases of n tools doing similar actions.

These are new tools.

ncr100
10-29-2012, 11:47 AM
These are new tools.

And I think the philosophy is "sunsetting" the old tools - they're still there but these tools are built on the new architecture and follow the "unified" design theme running through the recent changes to the app.

probiner
10-29-2012, 02:30 PM
hmm? The architecture is the same. The fact the old tools are still there points it out. So I don't see these as an advance in that perspective. These just point out to a possible streamline of things in the old architecture. Nothing else for what I can see.

Anyway, time will tell. And yes, criticism here is not to Cody (nice show), but the subject at hand.

Cheers

nickdigital
10-29-2012, 02:56 PM
hmm? The architecture is the same. The fact the old tools are still there points it out.


Just because the architecture is the same doesn't mean there haven't been improvements to it.

Lewis
10-29-2012, 03:06 PM
Just because the architecture is the same doesn't mean there haven't been improvements to it.

You seem to know more than you are telling :D :D :D. Spill the beans man :p.

probiner
10-29-2012, 04:54 PM
Just because the architecture is the same doesn't mean there haven't been improvements to it.

Well but that is my point. Just because there are improvements doesn't mean that things are yet good and working how they should. Namely the handling of Edges, Vertex Normals, UVs, Mesh Input on transformations and on and on.
If these can be solved in the present scheme without being isolated one trick ponies, all good. If not, well, a new scheme is needed, I guess.

Cheers

hrgiger
10-29-2012, 05:42 PM
What concerns me is that we have new tools that are doing things that should be options for most if not all modeling tools. Using gizmos, conforming to a background mesh, using an edge as an action center...

Areyos Alektor
10-29-2012, 06:24 PM
This meets the needs and requests, especially those who whine for 10 years that shape it's entitled in any respect ;)

Rob Powers was clear on the fact that don't rely on appearances, there are many works in the background. I agree with Nick Digital.

A little patience, will be judged on piece and it looks very promising. The 11.5 is huge and free, associated with what we had with the 11 was one of the most exciting versions out, until then :)

geo_n
10-29-2012, 06:48 PM
As long as they're not big updates to modeller, its probably ok. Minor tweaks is needed atleast for the time being that doesn't take so long to do, like better uvtools(Andrew made uvtools for 3dcoat in a week.). I would be worried if they added something big like a mod stack that should instead be done in layout. Duplicating effort and development, bringing genoma to layout someday, that's a waste. But its done so we'll have to wait how they develop genoma later on when it reaches its limits in modeller.

jeric_synergy
10-29-2012, 07:14 PM
Do my eyes deceive me? We get the gizmos people have been throwing tantrums about for years and there's STILL whinging?

Oedo 808
10-29-2012, 07:38 PM
Do my eyes deceive me? We get the gizmos people have been throwing tantrums about for years and there's STILL whinging?

Stop the press, some LightWave Modeler tools now have gizmos. Thank heavens they won't need to work on anything for the 12 cycle, they can instead focus on giving Layout some much needed attention.

jwiede
10-30-2012, 01:04 PM
Do my eyes deceive me? We get the gizmos people have been throwing tantrums about for years and there's STILL whinging?
Well, the gizmos belong to specific tools (a bit different from what was asked), but otherwise, yes. I'm not really bothered by the new tools, it's the continued presence of all the old tools which offer similar functionality that is more the issue, IMO -- having so many "similar but slightly different" tools just makes the UI/UX needlessly confusing.

jeric_synergy
10-30-2012, 01:58 PM
Jeez, if there's duplication, just remove the old tools from the UI.

Ideally, NewTek would craft new Menu/Hotkey configs so we're all reading the same page.

hrgiger
10-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Do my eyes deceive me? We get the gizmos people have been throwing tantrums about for years and there's STILL whinging?

Whining (or Whinging)? No. Just trying to ascertain whether new functionality is being put into new tools or actually implmented as part of the overall design. I would hope the idea is to create a design that new tools are built off of rather then new tools that work in the old design. And yes, I think its a big difference.

Surrealist.
10-30-2012, 03:39 PM
What concerns me is that we have new tools that are doing things that should be options for most if not all modeling tools. Using gizmos, conforming to a background mesh, using an edge as an action center...

This is entirely the point. Because developing these things in particular removes the need to even develop the other tools. So it is much more efficient. You could toss out 75% of the modeling tools right there. Translate Plus is a perfect example of this.

More efficient development and more efficient modeling in my opinion would go well hand in hand.

jeric_synergy
10-30-2012, 04:09 PM
Still no Unsubscribe. Which I'd use because this seems pointless.

geo_n
11-02-2012, 12:23 AM
November, wonder if these tools will be released anytime soon.

LW_Will
11-02-2012, 02:13 PM
Whining (or Whinging)? No. Just trying to ascertain whether new functionality is being put into new tools or actually implmented as part of the overall design. I would hope the idea is to create a design that new tools are built off of rather then new tools that work in the old design. And yes, I think its a big difference.

And that ISN'T a whine... ah... ;-)

probiner
11-02-2012, 03:29 PM
And that ISN'T a whine... ah... ;-)

No. It's quality control feedback.


Do my eyes deceive me? We get the gizmos people have been throwing tantrums about for years and there's STILL whinging?

What do you know about whining to judge? oh right... all those fingering posts, with different font sizes, style and colors, emotext, etc ... ;)


PS: Yes, I'm over reaching... :/

jwiede
11-02-2012, 11:56 PM
There is nothing respectful about trying to dismiss someone else's feelings and opinions as "whining", even thinly-veiled in guise of jest. That's precisely the kind of less than civil conduct that leads to escalation, personal attacks (well, further ones, as it really is one in and of itself), etc. Can't we keep this discussion civil?

Sadly, I suspect I already know the answer.

Surrealist.
11-03-2012, 04:50 PM
This is the crux of what is wrong with modeler and why it is so out-dated. I have no idea what's going on under the hood it would be nice to have NT be specific about this. Otherwise it does look like just more tools piled on top. That edge tool looks pretty cool though. But what I'd like to see happen is everything unified and something that indicates they care about that and are looking to eventually merge into one environment where all of the tools work the same. So many of them could be eliminated by simply unifying the basics of TRS, snapping and fall off. Much the way the current Move Scale and Rotate tools work. But have that available at the interface level.

Surrealist.
11-03-2012, 08:56 PM
Sorry to bump... But another element is the idea that I think you have to separate general discussion from support discussion. Certainly they overlap in many ways. But one always kills the other. It is not a good idea to mix "how to and tips" with "this is what we'd like to see". Because it always takes the wind out of discussion about moving things forward. To keep talking about how things are and all of the workarounds and the fact that we really don't need this or that because we have solution B even if not as good, is really not productive in my opinion. Sure it helps to understand the use of modeler but it kills inspiration for change - especially long awaited and needed change.

On the other hand polluting support discussion with "Well that's why you should not use modeler for this..." is equally counterproductive in an effort to better understand how to get the job done with what is available in the present tool set.

Obviously, support discussion overlaps to the degree you have to understand the how things are and what is available to make an educated request for change. And often people do ask for things that already exist.

Just something I've wanted to say for a while as I see it happen all the time. For what it's worth.