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View Full Version : LW animation about Scientology "not appropriate" for Lightwave animation website



DonJMyers
09-22-2012, 02:43 PM
I made a lightwave animation using all newtek products including Speededit but because it was about the Church of Scientology the Moderator deleted the link to my animation.

It's lighwave 11 work. It's a harmless comedy video. I posted it in the Lightwave 11 gallery here:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?130736-5-000-Scientology-bibles-hit-the-dirt!

The reponse of moderator SBOWIE:


I'm sorry, Don, but despite the attempt to make this LW relevant, and without offering any viewpoint on the content or the theology involved, this simply isn't appropriate here.


I find it shameful that Newtek is terrified of Scientology. Yes the are obviously terrified! I believe that a video which provokes an emotional response is possible called "ART." I guess I am incapable of using Lightwave to make artwork. Perhaps the moderator only considers Lightwave work "art" if it is non-controversial and unmoving. AKA not art at all!

Dexter2999
09-22-2012, 02:54 PM
Don, I don't think it has anything to do with Scientology. There was a thread locked about hackers attacking the website of a Polish Catholic church.

It is about these forums not being a place to express opinions about religeon in general. Particularly if that expression could be construed as offensive by other members of the boards.

DonJMyers
09-22-2012, 03:04 PM
I understand your point but Scientology isn't really a relgion and I doubt anybody on this board is a Sci or would be offended. The video is cute and that's about all. Supposed I did an expose using LW about sex offenders in the Catholic Church. Would that be banned here? I find sex offenders offensive and we should alert the public about them. Does this mean that Newtek is pro-Scientology and pro-Catholic priest perverts?

If I seem to be over-reacting it's because I have experienced this before many times. There is a Scientology based called "Twin Peaks" in San Bernardino ca where they keep prisoners. When protesters, tried to make a thread on the a local website www.rimoftheworld.net about the local cult compound we were all banned by our net location (meaning everyone in my neighborhood on the same branch of the internet was also banned). Our posts were taken down. The guy running the board was terrified. Years later locals made a thread about Scientology but even then any links to my website were prevented by the software. That's just one example so you see how I can be sensitive about censorship.

So I have a question for the board:

The movie "The Master" by Paul Thomas Anderson is about Scientology. It was shot in 70mm and has wide-screen special FX. If I animated a shot from that movie using LW and placed it here would it still be banned? It's about Scientology! The movie got rave reviews as art.

If anything made with Lightwave which controversial is banned then does that mean this website is for crafts people and tech demos only?

Second question:

If I put the same post in the "General Discussion" section would it still be banned?

probiner
09-22-2012, 03:08 PM
What Dexter said. Actually when I saw your thread, the title and the "locked" icon, I thought.... "2 in a week, wow"

I do think that the site could have a "Spam Filter" area where the moderation policy could be more loose, but still, it's there.
I must say I find funny, when in places there's the "no religion, no politics", and then ppl go crazy with their sports team...

Understand that you talk about Scientology, then a guy comes in and says, "I got the same view on Evangelics", another "All regions are decieving", then ppl defending their own belief and, it's probably not going to be use of the forum, where ppl help and inform each other.

There's enough discussion about faith, concerning LW and other apps ;)

metahumanity
09-22-2012, 04:10 PM
I can understand your frustration. Equally I can understand NT decision to moderate some things.

Dexter2999
09-22-2012, 04:24 PM
I understand your point but Scientology isn't really a relgion and I doubt anybody on this board is a Sci or would be offended.
Well, that is your opinion, but it is called "The Church of Scientology" and it is recognized by the US Govt. as a religeous entity.


The video is cute and that's about all. Supposed I did an expose using LW about sex offenders in the Catholic Church. Would that be banned here? I would say most likely it would be banned as Catholics might find it offensive.

I find sex offenders offensive and we should alert the public about them. Does this mean that Newtek is pro-Scientology and pro-Catholic priest perverts? My guess would be that Newtek is "pro-not offending users" and possibly "pro-avoiding any defamation charges".

I understand you have issues with censorship, I do as well. I edit myself so I get particularly irked when I find someone has layed a "heavy glove" on my posts. But this forum is primarily about Newtek products and technology. And if they if by hosting defamitory comments about any race or denomination they stand a chance of losing potential customers/income, then it is prudent of them to disallow these types of posts. And as they shouldn't allow one instance and disallow another.

What you view as anger in your posts, others see as hate. And this is not a place for posting messages of hate. I'm sorry if that makes you feel like a victim. But it is their board, and their rules.

DonJMyers
09-22-2012, 04:31 PM
I can understand your frustration. Equally I can understand NT decision to moderate some things.

Its a fine line worth debating. So you allow Mac-evangelists because you have a financial interest in selling them a product but as to other evangelism ... ?

If they had just left the link up to my animation it would not have spawned this second thread. A thread which, if it gets lots of views, actually improves the board by increasing participation and reach.

What might happen? Let's say this anti-Scientology popularity continues and the board opens a Scientology based sub-discussion area. The church will react. Eventually private investigators or other mercenaries will be paid to logon here with sock puppets and one person will run many accounts. All of these pseudo-people will gang up on me at once and argue with me. I will be thrown off the board for arguing. All angry threads will be banned to the "thunderdome," a password protected place beyond the reach of search engines. Personal details about my life or the lives of board moderators and/or Newtek staff will be leaked someplace else. Someplace outside the bubble world of this board. Because all net boards are bubble worlds.

What does this have to do with Newtek? Replace Scientology with "Maya/Max." The competitors of Newtek may pay their employees to come here on the board and bad mouth the product. And vice versa. There is no way of knowing which members of this board are actually paid agents of the competition sent here to enturbulate.

So this thread has become a discussion of Newtek and this message board. How could that be inappropriate? Will this thread be locked fast also? What will I do then?

Enturbulate is a Scientology word.

Surrealist.
09-22-2012, 05:07 PM
This is a perfect example why these subjects are banned. Rules are put in place because people have proven over and over again that they can't behave. It does not matter what you call something, religion, practice, belief, faith, anything one follows. Would a sports team or any other thing one follows with pride provoke such unrest? Sure it would. How many fights break out in bars over such things? I am sure it could happen here too. And those threads would be closed for the same reason. Threads get closed when people can't behave about software wars, or anything, even tools within LightWave - as soon as people stop behaving and things go off the rails. The moderators have this right and even duty. It just so happens that the moderators also have the right to pick subjects they know will spark such behavior 100% of the time and are really inappropriate for a private form about a software. This is not Union Square NY NY. This is not a public forum for free speech. Even taking up whether or not a subject fits into the category that is inappropriate, is itself inappropriate. Because then, you are just arguing that subject are you not? And it is not within your right - here on this forum - to judge whether or not it is fits in a category. That is for the moderators to decide.

We are here because we are allowed the privilege to participate as long as we follow the rules. We don't have a right to free speech about just anything here. Sure it is an open forum and part of what makes it great is that we are allowed to give our feedback on subjects that are appropriate, such as the direction of LightWave, or aything related - as long as we behave.

I think we should be thankful that people work hard to put this forum here for us and we should respect them by not making their job more difficult by posting -again- about a subject that has been deemed inappropriate. The reasons are none of our business really.

Give these guys a break. They have to work hard enough just to keep things rolling and keep this a great resource for LightWave.

I assume this thread will be closed and locked shortly.

Because I am absolutely certain that the debate (as to if this is in fact inappropriate), I have unwittingly furthered to make a point, will not even go on in a civil manor for too long.

metahumanity
09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Its a fine line worth debating. So you allow Mac-evangelists because you have a financial interest in selling them a product but as to other evangelism ... ?

If they had just left the link up to my animation it would not have spawned this second thread. A thread which, if it gets lots of views, actually improves the board by increasing participation and reach.

What might happen? Let's say this anti-Scientology popularity continues and the board opens a Scientology based sub-discussion area. The church will react. Eventually private investigators or other mercenaries will be paid to logon here with sock puppets and one person will run many accounts. All of these pseudo-people will gang up on me at once and argue with me. I will be thrown off the board for arguing. All angry threads will be banned to the "thunderdome," a password protected place beyond the reach of search engines. Personal details about my life or the lives of board moderators and/or Newtek staff will be leaked someplace else. Someplace outside the bubble world of this board. Because all net boards are bubble worlds.

What does this have to do with Newtek? Replace Scientology with "Maya/Max." The competitors of Newtek may pay their employees to come here on the board and bad mouth the product. And vice versa. There is no way of knowing which members of this board are actually paid agents of the competition sent here to enturbulate.

So this thread has become a discussion of Newtek and this message board. How could that be inappropriate? Will this thread be locked fast also? What will I do then?

Enturbulate is a Scientology word.

Mac and PC issues are related to the products this board is for.
The same goes for Max, Maya or whatever software.

Scientology, Evangelism and pedophiles are not.
Itīs really that simple. You made quite a leap there jumping from Mac-evangelism to Evangelism ;-)

If youīre looking for a free speech zone there are many places on the internet for that.

Donīt get me wrong, Iīm all for free speech and humorously pointing the finger at socially dangerous
sects.

But the fact is, this is NTīs house, and if they donīt want that then thatīs how it rolls without debates.

VictoryX
09-23-2012, 12:40 AM
I would've liked to see the "Offensive" material since I haven't seen it I can't really make a statement if it should or shouldn't be allowed. I know I would hate to see my model of a bloodied crown of thorns taken down off this site, just because it is loosely linked to Christianity. Sucks you got censored, but I guess those are the rules. You have no right to free expression when you are expressing yourself on a privatized website. You want freedom of speech, get a domain name and post whatever you like there, but as long as you are posting on forums that others own. You are under their discretion as to what is allowed.

Cryonic
09-23-2012, 01:02 AM
This is a private companies website and they do have the right to dictate the topics that are or aren't allowed on it. I saw the post that the moderator locked and just from reading it I can see why he did. I doubt this thread will remain unlocked once the moderators are awake again (since I'm guessing they are US based if there is more than one).

probiner
09-23-2012, 02:20 AM
See there's the tricky thing... One thing is posting in a Gallery thread "Here's my latest work", where through a thumbnail we are linked to a bloodied crown of thorns Full Resolution image; or a bullet dynamics pile of Scientology bibles animation; or even a Japanese 3D porn flick (with due warning), all done in Lightwave3D. You can have your political, religious, sex statement through it, and I don't think it should be censored, given the user has the option to see it or not, aside from just opening the thread. We're all adults here right?

The problem usually starts when people want to talk about it, the content, the message, etc, be it apriori like Don did by not just posting his "art" and let it speak, but also disserting on it; be it aposteriori where we would drop our thoughts and arguments about it.
When we look at the original Don's thread, the link to it's "art" was removed, but the dissertion was kept in place... Now, it would be a more harsh edit by moderation to cut most of the text and leave the link. But it would be less censoring in a way, unless of course the point of Don's thread was the text, while the animation was just like a newspaper illustration.

For example how can I call other LW users, that are a specific fond crowd, to see and discuss my work, even if it's in a personal space, like a blog, youtube channel, etc, if its out of sync with the moderation policy?
Personally I think most image production based things, even if controversial, should be left in place, even if restrictions like "take the discussion elsewhere" are applied, understandably, since they won't probably add much to the boards.

Cheers

SBowie
09-23-2012, 06:37 AM
I find it shameful that Newtek is terrified of Scientology. Yes the are obviously terrified!Thank you for my first hearty laugh of the day. (I am running right now to make sure Tom Cruise isn't hiding under my bed! Yikes!) :)

Item 1: The Forum Moderation Policy (which I had no part in formulating, but which constantly impresses me as having been crafted with great insight) states in part:


"The NewTek Discussion Forums are a private venue provided as a service to NewTek customers at NewTek's discretion. As such, the NewTek Discussion Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users.

The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:

Off-topic and controversial subjects such as Religion and Politics"


It's been discussed before, but generally we try to take a relaxed, liberal view of such matters, inasmuch as the forums are a realm populated by artists, and art is a boundless topic. In particular, a certain amount of tolerance might often be extended in connection with references to a work of art that is controversial in some respect, when - in the judgement of the moderators - the topic is reasonably founded in a worthwhile discussion of technique, and is handled in a mature and non-inflammatory manner with discretion and an effort to avoid pointless provocation.

Let's consider an example. Someone might write a post discussing how to produce an effect showing a crowd sim taking fire from a machine gun or flamethrower. In such a case, presuming the discussion clearly revolves around LW technique, it might well be deemed appropriate for the forum. Still, associated imagery, if it were excessively gory, might disturb some members who do not wish to be confronted with such things over their breakfast (and, by the way, no - we are not all adults here). Complaints would often follow. In such a case, a discreet poster might provide links rather than images or youtube videos. This would likely not produce any complaints from other members, or moderators. On the other hand, if the post included clearly inflammatory and unnecessary remarks ("Here's a video I made showing how to handle protests outside embassies. Notice how I used particles, instances and Turbulence to burn up those idiots who believe blah, blah, blah"), it would be a different matter. The discussion of technique (or 'artistic merit') in such cases gives evidence of being a thinly-veiled excuse to propagandize on a controversial topic that is banned under the Moderation Policy.

Even when a controversial topic is handled with extreme sensitivity, experience has repeatedly demonstrated that a lack of maturity and professionalism on the part of some will often turn what might have been a worthwhile discussion into a flamewar ... which is probably the reason the Moderation Policy simply explicitly bans these topics, leaving the balancing act to moderators.

This is not ideological. The same considerations would be applied, I promise you, if someone posted a clip demonstrating how to use Genoma and ClothFX to create a scene graphically depicting the sexual molestation of little boys - whether they were posed as altar boys or not, or presented as 'comic' or not. Likewise, posts clearly meant to aggravate or demean this or that nationality, ethnic or language group, etc., etc., will have a very short half-life in these forums. I will add that it is often not too hard to discern in a specific case whether someone is genuinely intending to discuss technique or is instead someone with an axe to grind by examining their posting history.

Moving on, we come to ...

Item 2: The same policy adds:

"Those who are unable to keep their posts on topic, unable to maintain responsible civil conversation with others or who have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will have their accounts removed.

Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. If you have comments, send an email or private message to the moderators."

This thread is a clear breach of that requirement, which I might add, everyone here agreed to abide by when creating their accounts. So as much as I am always interested in discussions about the finer points of balanced moderation, I am required to terminate this thread. Y'all have a nice day. :)

SBowie
09-23-2012, 07:13 AM
For example how can I call other LW users, that are a specific fond crowd, to see and discuss my work, even if it's in a personal space, like a blog, youtube channel, etc, if its out of sync with the moderation policy?You're right, it is tricky to balance such issues - but since you raise an interesting question, I'll respond. You post your work in an appropriate place, then announce it here - as in "Some of you might find my work on [Insert Prohibited Topic] interesting, especially since it is all done with NewTek products - here's a link to (my site)."