PDA

View Full Version : make a decent bridge tool.



eblu
09-17-2012, 01:35 PM
as it works now, the bridge tool is a joke.
a bad joke.

here's something you can't do with the bridge tool:

make a generic sphere, 12 x 24 etc...
delete its top copy it to another layer, Scale it down, flip the faces, copy it back to the original layer.
// now you have an exact copy of the first sphere inside the original, complete with the exact Same implicit point order

select the open edges of both spheres, hit bridge... and you get a mess.
what you SHOULD get, is an ordered set of quads that follow the implicit point order and create a lip that "bridges the two semi-spheres.

geo_n
09-17-2012, 02:00 PM
Its working for me. When I have the two hemisphere on one layer I select one edge then select loop, select the other edge then select loop, bridge. Everything is as expected and new row is perfect. lw 11.03

cagey5
09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
Works fine here too. P.C. 11.0.3

probiner
09-17-2012, 03:00 PM
Eblu I feel your pain, it's one of those Modeler quirks. For these I almost don't use Bridge anymore, but use Weld Strip from Kevman's Weld Tools: http://www.kevman3d.com/lightwave.asp?section=plugins&sub=modeler

The only quirk is that you need to select the edge, press E to extend it and move it out then select 2 points and "Select Loop" then select the matching 2 point on the other edge and "Select Loop" and run Weld Strip.

Cheers

jeric_synergy
09-17-2012, 03:17 PM
Works here. LW11.0.3/64
107888

Just did it again w/the default Ball to make sure.

Did you use LOOP SELECT or did you do it manually?

hrgiger
09-17-2012, 07:27 PM
Modo's bridge tool gives you the options to add segments and curves to your bridge.

probiner
09-17-2012, 07:34 PM
Just like Bsrufaces :)

Oedo 808
09-17-2012, 08:05 PM
As a quick work around (in LW? Perish the thought!), create a morph, move one of the parts you wish to bridge so that the loop to be bridged doesn't share the same plane as the loop on the other part, bridge, then delete the morph. If it's on an axis you can probably skip the morph and just offset one of the parts then move it back, but if you've moved the object off the world axis the morph trick works quite painlessly, just try to move the part in what would be it's local Y and move it a decent amount or you might still get errors. Not exactly a scientific response but it works most of the time for me. Hopefully when LW begins to make inroads into what Core should have been we shall see an end to these niggles.


Modo's bridge tool gives you the options to add segments and curves to your bridge.

I'd love to see bridge create a spline like Art's Bezier Bridge (http://www.artssphere.com/plugins/bezierbridge.php) which would also support deformation like the ones he has with Extrude+ (http://www.artssphere.com/plugins/extrudeplus.php). Oh, and to work on multiple bridges and have a switch been single and global editing like some LWCAD tools have. I'd also like a Lamborghini and Michelle Pfeiffer for Christmas.


Just like Bsrufaces :)

Bsurfaces looks fun in the videos I've seen, but I think I'd end up tying myself in knots with that tool.

probiner
09-17-2012, 08:27 PM
Bsurfaces looks fun in the videos I've seen, but I think I'd end up tying myself in knots with that tool.

As it would happen to a Blender guy trying to work it out with LWCAD, I mean, maybe you're right but my main issue with Bsurfaces is that it's inside Blender, which is a road-block when I try to just replicate the tutorials, let alone be creative. But when you see a skilled person using it like second nature, then it shines its best.

Cheers

jeric_synergy
09-17-2012, 08:29 PM
Since nobody else had troubles doing this, what's the OP's real difficulty here? :confused: We should address that.

(Just tried it again w/the 2 loops in the same plane: worked fine.)

OP, send some problematic objects to demo the issue.

Oedo 808
09-17-2012, 10:46 PM
As it would happen to a Blender guy trying to work it out with LWCAD, I mean, maybe you're right but my main issue with Bsurfaces is that it's inside Blender, which is a road-block when I try to just replicate the tutorials, let alone be creative. But when you see a skilled person using it like second nature, then it shines its best.

Cheers

It isn't the Blender workflow phenomenon, I hadn't tried it yet, it was just that at first I was really impressed but then I began to wonder if I'd really use it all that much when I really analysed what was being done, it looked a bit like the demonstrations you get on the shopping channels. But there's the great thing about Blender in that you don't have to wonder, and as you've brought it to the front of my mind I have downloaded Blender (once again :D) and will give it a go.


Since nobody else had troubles doing this, what's the OP's real difficulty here? :confused: We should address that.

(Just tried it again w/the 2 loops in the same plane: worked fine.)

OP, send some problematic objects to demo the issue.

I don't think the OP needs to be schooled on what his issue is, but if you're really not having any trouble perhaps we can indeed find out why so he and I can avoid it, because it can be annoying. In the .gif:

1. Make shape that you might want to bridge
2. Select the loops
3. Bridge it, it's screwed up.
4. Translate one of the portion in or out a bit
5. Select the loops
6. Bridge, works fine

So you could create a morph just before you move the centrepiece, then delete it after you Bridge the gap. Perhaps I'm selecting the loops the wrong way. :stumped:

107891

geo_n
09-17-2012, 11:27 PM
Looks like its a bug. When the sphere is not perfectly centered the mess happens. Fog it.

probiner
09-18-2012, 12:45 AM
Didn't know that moving the mesh apart would fix the Bridge, strange... :O good catch Oedo.


I have downloaded Blender (once again :D) and will give it a go.

Oh no... don't do it... don't lose time with a nice tool outside your environment that does something you don't used everyday or enough to make you move there, where you'll probably just say in the end: "Cool, now I can forget this and go back to LW" :p
I was just defending how good the tool is and that it can cover Bezier Bridge or Freehand Bridge along with lots of other operations that system can contribute too. Not saying it's what LW should get, but that it's an interesting flexible integrated approach.

To illustrate my previous post about Weld Strip (never fails me)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Weld-Strip.gif

In conclusion... Yes a better, more complete Bridge Tool :D

Cheers

jeric_synergy
09-18-2012, 01:15 AM
Looks like its a bug. When the sphere is not perfectly centered the mess happens. Fog it.
Perfectly planar breaks it too. I had mixed results when I started rotating and translating.

Looks like "Weld Strip" may be the answer, or possibly doing the Bridge in sections.

Oedo 808
09-18-2012, 01:41 AM
Oh no... don't do it... don't lose time with a nice tool outside your environment that does something you don't used everyday or enough to make you move there, where you'll probably just say in the end: "Cool, now I can forget this and go back to LW" :p

Oh no it's too late! I will lose time with this tool, I will lose my sanity in an epic struggle with the interface, I will shout "Damn you Proboner!!!!!!!" And I will say "Cool, now I can forget this and go back to LW" :D


To illustrate my previous post about Weld Strip (never fails me)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/th_Weld-Strip.gif

Thanks for the tip, I am currently 'migrating' to 11.0.3, been mostly sticking to 10.1 so far, but I'm taking the time to update my custom menus so I'll check out this plugin. :thumbsup:


In conclusion... Yes a better, more complete Bridge Tool :D

I sure hope Duncan MacLeod enjoys it, because at this rate none of us will. :p

probiner
09-18-2012, 02:39 AM
Ok... I got a confession to make... Bsurface doesn't do the Bezier Tool I had in mind. It uses Blender's beziers... but to define the outer contour and requires 2 minimum. On the other hand they have Rail Extrude, but it doesn't "Bridge".. Pfff... Busted!

See now you're gonna lose time on a false premise, ah!
Good luck trying to understand how he makes each of these :D
http://vimeo.com/26339130 (spoiler: dummy geometry is needed when doing something from scratch)


I sure hope Duncan MacLeod enjoys it, because at this rate none of us will. :p
:)

erikals
09-18-2012, 08:12 AM
ok, that Blender music is a bit too much artistic norwegian televison bureau from the 60's for me.
poor generation.

anyway, yeah, the bridge might not take you there.
another alternative, Rail Poly > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVCV1ZXLKzM

probiner
09-18-2012, 10:50 AM
That one works great too erikals, thanks. No need to Extend the edge. Leaves a hole in closed loops, like the OP situation, but very easy to fix

jeric_synergy
09-18-2012, 11:06 AM
That one works great too erikals, thanks. No need to Extend the edge. Leaves a hole in closed loops, like the OP situation, but very easy to fix
Since that one is WELDING points, I think you need to Extend the edge so as not to collapse the loop.

It's not constructing new geometry, like Bridge is supposed to.

art
09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
I'd love to see bridge create a spline like Art's which would also support deformation like the ones he has with Extrude+
I had plans to implement all that in my bridge tool and also add blending between shapes with different point counts, maybe edges too, but life keeps throwing things at me and my time available for LW development (side hobby) has been severely limited :(

eblu
09-18-2012, 01:05 PM
that is a lot of replies. thanks all.

I'm not going to respond one at a time, I'll try to digest the most appropriate responses, skip the ones that become less relevant (due only because we learned more since that particular post)

posting problematic files... this seems unnecessary, as a few users have pointed out that the bridge tool is actually NOT reliable with the same setting on the same computer, the behavior appears to be unpredictable at times. I myself have experienced this just now. I followed my own steps and the bridge tool worked just fine, this time. this behavior was called a bug. I suspect it's less a bug and just poor implementation, hence my feature request. The mesh objects we are working with, all have the same point order, which can be used to clearly influence how the bridge should be built, and the order in which we make the selection can also be used to determine just what we want, but it seems like the bridge tool ignores this critical information and tries to see which points are planar with each other, as the ONLY deterministic value for creating a bridge.

But I think we can all agree that If a tool doesn't behave exactly the same given the same conditions every time, then there is something wrong with it.

am I doing it wrong? honestly it IS possible, but very unlikely. I have NO trouble at all bridging 2 edges to 2 edges. ever. it's when the bridge tool is asked to bridge 2 edge selections with >3 edges in each edge (and the same number in both). The example I mentioned was a very simplified version of what i was trying to do in the first place... for illustrative purposes. What I was doing originally was:

make a sphere, dup it scale the dup down, split both spheres such that they are divided like an orange would be, and connect the inner slices to the matching outer slices with the bridge tool.

the bridge tool could not, under any circumstances, bridge more than 2 poly edges at a time. So I simplified, in order to illustrate. I have tried selecting with the loop menu, doing it by hand, using the lasso… doesn't seem to matter. In the end I was forced to bridge every 2 edges, by hand.

I'll attach an image of what happens.

It's this kind of monumental waste of MY time that makes me speak up. The linear, integer driven processors in the computer excel at these kinds of mundane sorting tasks, there really is no reason at all that I should have to do anything but select the two complete edges and click 1 button. I don't mind doing work, but this is just a poor tool, making me work 10 times harder. 107901

erikals
09-18-2012, 03:16 PM
yep, can be tricky, i stick to these,

Rail Poly > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVCV1ZXLKzM
Thickener > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_WL6_gRa5w

jeric_synergy
09-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Not helpful but: i find it interesting that it's so inconsistent. The first THREE times I tried it, w/the OP's 'recipe', it worked fine. Once I started really twisting the loops around it started failing, and of course it also fails if the loops are perfectly co-planar-- oh wait, it just worked then too (!). (To get it to fail just now I had to really rotate and shift things.) But if you do it one edge-pair at a time, of course it works fine, so why doesn't the algorithm just do it step-wise?

erikals
09-18-2012, 04:17 PM
i reported it years ago, but maybe more people need to send a Fogbugz.
(see my signature if so)

prometheus
09-19-2012, 03:02 AM
To me that sample of the slices seems to be unskinnable and not the way it should be done, not sure, can you post those samples? so to me it seems like it is a question of geometry that canīt be bridged/skinned in a proper way.

I have no issues bridging edges otherwise when geometry is aligned properly.

Would this really work in other apps?
Regarding bridge tools..thereīs also a bezier bridge tool out there as a free plugin to set a curve and segment bridge similar too modoīs native bridge tool.
Michael

Oedo 808
09-19-2012, 03:14 AM
Ok... I got a confession to make... Bsurface doesn't do the Bezier Tool I had in mind. It uses Blender's beziers... but to define the outer contour and requires 2 minimum. On the other hand they have Rail Extrude, but it doesn't "Bridge".. Pfff... Busted!

See now you're gonna lose time on a false premise, ah!
Good luck trying to understand how he makes each of these :D
http://vimeo.com/26339130 (spoiler: dummy geometry is needed when doing something from scratch)

:)

Oh man, even though I'm a repeat offender I always seem to underestimate just how utterly useless I am with Blender. Ah well, perhaps I shall hunt down some noob modelling tuts.


I had plans to implement all that in my bridge tool and also add blending between shapes with different point counts, maybe edges too, but life keeps throwing things at me and my time available for LW development (side hobby) has been severely limited :(

Ahh, you don't need to tell me about that, thankfully I have nothing too much to grumble about, but it's amazing how much time you can get whipped away from you. Well thanks for what you have done, you've got some great plugins and the LightWave team could do worse than take some inspiration from + that makes your Extrude tool, Extrude+. At least one luxury you have as a developer of tools for Modeler is that you don't have to worry about a native tool being made that would make it redundant.

prometheus
09-19-2012, 04:12 AM
I just donīt get it..how could such geometry with selected edges like that ever be resolved in to a proper bridging?

cagey5
09-19-2012, 05:03 AM
107914I know it doesn't address your main point which is bug acknowledgement, but I would have done this with multi shift.

cagey5
09-19-2012, 05:35 AM
Just tried again with the bridge tool on the segments with which I was getting similar results to you. One of the main problems seems to be the distance between the edges, confusing the algorithm as to how to resolve it. If you are able to copy the segment and move it just a short distance away it seems to bridge just fine. If you are then able to modify the 'inner' segment to the correct size and position it could work for you. In other words just alter the steps in which you approach it.

erikals
09-19-2012, 09:31 AM
Manual Bridging
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWJUmenGag

Kuzey
09-20-2012, 04:38 AM
Here's my crack at it..I do wish Newtek would do away with the internal point order :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxnjiQjaZw4

Kuzey

prometheus
09-20-2012, 05:55 AM
Here's my crack at it..I do wish Newtek would do away with the internal point order :P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxnjiQjaZw4

Kuzey


aH..Now I see how the slices was lined up, I got the wrong impression on how they were located in perspective so in the example from the thread starter I thought the geometry was positioned in such way that it couldnīt be resolved, but of course it could and should.

as mentioned by Kuzey, a check box with no point order in the bridge tool would be great if it could be implemented.

I tested with cm_loft too, but pretty much the same mess, great to see cm_loft working in 64 bit lw11.03 though.

Michael

probiner
09-20-2012, 07:21 AM
1 Bridge
2 RailPoly
3 WeldStrip (notice I press E before selecting the second loop, Extend) I like this one the best for most situations. It's reliable and no clean-up.

https://www.box.com/s/e5w36wl0ft4g0uhydt3b

Cheers

erikals
09-20-2012, 07:43 AM
no plugins > http://youtu.be/eG-ZhiZaHlQ

(that said, the create skin tool isn't always reliable, doesn't always do what it's supposed to do...)

Kuzey
09-20-2012, 08:31 AM
Is WeldStrip a 3rd party plugin or in LW10 plus. It would be better if it worked with edges..so much easier to select and what not.

Kuzey

probiner
09-20-2012, 08:34 AM
http://www.kevman3d.com/lightwave.asp?section=plugins&sub=modeler

erikals
09-20-2012, 10:06 AM
3 WeldStrip (notice I press E before selecting the second loop, Extend) I like this one the best for most situations. It's reliable and no clean-up...

bit buggy in LW11 it seems... ? http://youtu.be/d9ga4Uzxxd0

jeric_synergy
09-20-2012, 12:16 PM
bit buggy in LW11 it seems... ? http://youtu.be/d9ga4Uzxxd0
Do we have the source code for WeldStrip?

Slap an Extend in front of it and we get a Bridge that works, right?

EDIT: Yes, WE DO HAVE THE SOURCE! (Thank you KEVMAN!)

Kuzey
09-20-2012, 01:09 PM
Do we have the source code for WeldStrip?

Slap an Extend in front of it and we get a Bridge that works, right?

EDIT: Yes, WE DO HAVE THE SOURCE! (Thank you KEVMAN!)

If you're going to tinker with it...please..please make it work with edges as well :)

Kuzey

probiner
09-20-2012, 09:16 PM
bit buggy in LW11 it seems... ? http://youtu.be/d9ga4Uzxxd0

Hard to evaluate without you sharing the mesh.

Had no problem with the attached one, for example. Notice how it's in 2 layers and still works ;D (apparently most tools for these use addpoly() and it can't use geometry in separate layers)


107980

erikals
09-21-2012, 03:48 AM
ah, not the same, but close, the added cut in the middle of the object did the trick :]

if you remove, bandglue, the cut so that it looks exactly like my example, it won't work ;]

probiner
09-21-2012, 07:59 AM
ah, not the same, but close, the added cut in the middle of the object did the trick :]

if you remove, bandglue, the cut so that it looks exactly like my example, it won't work ;]

Working fine here :) https://www.box.com/s/qxq0y5zycrfph9q9z3kl
The problem is that you used Extend with no geometry in the middle, so if you check not only the outter edges got extended, but the inner ones too.
I must admit that RailPoly seems to do the job fine and probably faster, even if one polygon is missing and I need to cap it. I just have to hope he is missing in a visible/acessible area :D


If you're going to tinker with it...please..please make it work with edges as well :)

Kuzey

In fact you can work with RailPoly and WeldStrip with Edges. RailPoly accepts them and with WeldStrip you just convert the edge selection to Points before running it. But they will have problems with the same nature as "Brigde". For Weldstrip the problem arrises because when you select and edge then "Select Loop", it can go 2 directions, so if this missmatches on the two loops, the plugin fails.

I don't know if we're asking the impossible by working with edges to select and also wanting a good point order. Or it's one of those LW structural problems, especially because it concerns edges, so I don't know if requesting for a better bridge tool hack is enough, but for proper handling Edge all together.

Cheers

jeric_synergy
09-21-2012, 09:59 AM
Maybe it's our expectations at fault: ALIGN has failed for years, we just know now that it only works for smallish patches.

probiner
09-21-2012, 10:13 AM
Maybe it's our expectations at fault: ALIGN has failed for years, we just know now that it only works for smallish patches.

What an oFf-topic are you talking about?...

jeric_synergy
09-21-2012, 10:28 AM
Bridge works on small bits reliably.

probiner
09-21-2012, 11:21 AM
aah ok. Well, hence the topic title, I guess...
Yes, I don't use it for patching stuff unless it's beyond edge rows of 3. To me it's relegated to make "Bridge" polygons.

Cheers

Kuzey
09-21-2012, 01:38 PM
In fact you can work with RailPoly and WeldStrip with Edges. RailPoly accepts them and with WeldStrip you just convert the edge selection to Points before running it. But they will have problems with the same nature as "Brigde". For Weldstrip the problem arrises because when you select and edge then "Select Loop", it can go 2 directions, so if this missmatches on the two loops, the plugin fails.

I don't know if we're asking the impossible by working with edges to select and also wanting a good point order. Or it's one of those LW structural problems, especially because it concerns edges, so I don't know if requesting for a better bridge tool hack is enough, but for proper handling Edge all together.

Cheers

I think that "Select loop" order adds to the complexity of the whole thing.

It should always shoot out in both directions from the selected edge until it runs out of edges to select.

Kuzey

probiner
09-21-2012, 02:09 PM
I think that "Select loop" order adds to the complexity of the whole thing.

It should always shoot out in both directions from the selected edge until it runs out of edges to select.

Kuzey

Same problem would arise: which direction to account first? :)

Kuzey
09-21-2012, 02:32 PM
Same problem would arise: which direction to account first? :)

Mmm...I wonder how Loop Expand & Loop Contract work.

I declare "Left" to be first & "Right" to be second..hehe :)

Kuzey

probiner
09-21-2012, 02:47 PM
To be honest selecting 2 neighbor edges before running "Loop Select" should be enough to get a starting point and a direction. Same if you select an edge loop and 2 neighbor vertices I guess.

Example of selecting a point order with edges.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Edge-Point-Order-B_zps7e102252.png

Cheers

probiner
09-21-2012, 03:17 PM
Double Post (Thread Hijack alert!!! :D)

erikals
09-22-2012, 11:58 AM
Working fine here :) https://www.box.com/s/qxq0y5zycrfph9q9z3kl
The problem is that you used Extend with no geometry in the middle, so if you check not only the outter edges got extended, but the inner ones too.
I must admit that RailPoly seems to do the job fine and probably faster, even if one polygon is missing and I need to cap it. I just have to hope he is missing in a visible/acessible area :D

Cheers

sorry, my wrong.

i extended in point mode instead of edge mode. works in LW11 :]