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Hail
09-16-2012, 09:39 AM
As the heading suggests the undo system does not make working in layout pretty at all
The sluggishness of the system cost me a job today (obviously not pretty):(
I almost hanged myself for that

I also recall someone else also bitterly complaining about how useless undo is in lw when he realised he couldnt undo changes he had made to a scene after messing around with some motion modifiers

So NT PLEEASE FIX THE UNDO SYSTEM!
Shouldnt be that difficult you know

Red_Oddity
09-16-2012, 11:34 AM
People have been complaining about this since version 5.x, so, don't hold your breath.

Cageman
09-16-2012, 03:59 PM
As the heading suggests the undo system does not make working in layout pretty at all
The sluggishness of the system cost me a job today (obviously not pretty):(
I almost hanged myself for that

I also recall someone else also bitterly complaining about how useless undo is in lw when he realised he couldnt undo changes he had made to a scene after messing around with some motion modifiers

So NT PLEEASE FIX THE UNDO SYSTEM!
Shouldnt be that difficult you know

It is a lot more difficult than one might think.

Just saying....

That said, loosing the job and blame LW for it is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot and blame the gun. LW takes many years of experience to master, and when you master it, you will also work with it very differently from other apps. For good and bad reasons, Undo is included in that factor.

With what you just said, you might wonder how all those TV-effects shows manage to produce a lot of good looking content, using LW, with extremely tight deadlines. How do they manage that? Well, the artists knows the pitfalls and avoid them and have created quite time-effective workflows for what they are doing.

I'm all for LW3D Group to rework the whole system in LW Layout to make Undo a much more reliable tool, so I do understand your frustration, but until that happens, there are ways to deal with things so that you will not end up loosing your job...

jasonwestmas
09-16-2012, 04:02 PM
All I can say is use save scene increment and save object increment very often. I usually use that in all applications because it's so much faster to recover your work, not just with lightwave.

zapper1998
09-16-2012, 06:53 PM
All I can say is use save scene increment and save object increment very often. I usually use that in all applications because it's so much faster to recover your work, not just with lightwave.

Thats the best way till they F I X it...

save save

ctrl+s all the time.....


Have layout save every 15 minutes or every 30, 60, minutes, it's a pain but it has saved my rear end a few times..


:)

:)

Ryan Roye
09-16-2012, 07:11 PM
The suggestion of "save early, save often" (and back up) isn't just a Lightwave thing... this is something you should do no matter what program you use... be it wordpad, your paint program, or whatever.

If you don't like the scene increment option, you can always make a backup folder and just periodically copy/paste your functional scene into there. It has saved me from loss of work enough times to let me know it is a smart thing to do.

omichon
09-16-2012, 10:18 PM
Of course (well that shouldn't be that obvious but) you can't rely on the UNDO function in LightWave, but my biggest concern regarding this aberration is that you can't remove the buttons from the interface. So you may have some good habits regarding incremental save, if you unfortunately click on it, you may have to revert to the previous version of your scene which could be irritating, but definitely shouldn't cost you a job.

rcallicotte
09-17-2012, 11:19 AM
:agree:


All I can say is use save scene increment and save object increment very often. I usually use that in all applications because it's so much faster to recover your work, not just with lightwave.

Areyos Alektor
09-17-2012, 07:29 PM
Maybe we will have the CORE modifier stack and history.

But I second the use of incremental saves.

Sensei
09-18-2012, 12:07 AM
Shouldnt be that difficult you know

LOL!

It's nearly not possible to make fully working undo system in LW..

Sensei
09-18-2012, 12:18 AM
Download mine SaveSceneAndAllObjects plugin from www.trueart.eu
It has command SaveSceneAndAllObjectsIncrement, which is either incrementing scene and objects, without showing requester asking whether you want to save etc. no requests, one key press (assign to short-cut).

geo_n
09-18-2012, 12:44 AM
LOL!

It's nearly not possible to make fully working undo system in LW..

How about that its all text and code stuff we keep hearing and nothing is impossible to do. :D

Sensei
09-18-2012, 12:52 AM
How about that its all text and code stuff we keep hearing and nothing is impossible to do. :D

From scratch. From nothing. Right.

Hail
09-19-2012, 10:10 AM
I m aware of the many glitches and gotchas that exist within lw but this undo/redo screw over took me by surprise (hence costing me a job the process)
I dont remember ever having this kinda problelm before so I guess its a recent development and I believe I'm not the only casualty.

For those advocating for the saving thingy well...
saving was what nailed the coffin
I did not notice something had changed in my scene when I used undo/redo until I saved it(oh well.. my fault shoulda saved as an increment)
And shift S? yes I had a couple of those but...
they were just too back dated to be useful
I understand the usefulness of incremental saving but come on guys
must one always reload a scene to undo a simple change?
Its not an ideal workflow besides, you may also loose a couple of apdates in the scene.
A robust undo system can save all that hustle

Sometimes it gives me headaches not being able to undo changes made in modifiers and deformers, graph editor, scene editor, filters, emitters, hypervoxels, dynamics etc... but I ve learnt to live without them and now to keep track of the position of the time slider to undo properly only adds to that headache.

I wonder how many more heads must roll before this is fixed :(

Hail
09-19-2012, 10:24 AM
People have been complaining about this since version 5.x, so, don't hold your breath.

Seriously?
what?

Now it is obvious that it is not a priority.
How could NT be that insensitive?

It takes away the joy of working in layout!

DaMMIT!!!

Sensei
09-19-2012, 10:27 AM
Seriously?
what?

Now it is obvious that it is not a priority.
How could NT be that insensitive?


You must not understand English words "not possible".. ;)

Hail
09-19-2012, 11:34 AM
LOL!

It's nearly not possible to make fully working undo system in LW..

Well... since Core was cancelled we have been made to believe that the new dev team now posses a magic wand that can solve any lw mystery
This is why Core was hanged
And they have proven this to be true so far
They gave us VPR at a time when many believed it wasn't possible in lw
They gave us instancing, something NT tried to do a while back but failed and more

The reason NT chose to kill Core over lw was because they believed they had figured out a way to make lw as robust as Core(at least that's what we were told)
So there must be a way to make it work(heck! Core had it even with a construction history) otherwise there is no justification for killing Core if simple problems like this can not be solved in lw.

The earlier NT fixes this nightmare the better(I still have faith Rob):)

Hail
09-19-2012, 11:44 AM
You must not understand English words "not possible".. ;)

Sensei I know u hold a phd in English Grammar :) but come on man.. This is simple, plain English that anyone can understand.
Didn't they say they had to put Core on the chopping board because they had found a way to make it work in lw?

I might be missing something here but that was the english they spoke

Hail
09-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Double post!

Sensei
09-19-2012, 12:02 PM
Attempt to make undo in Layout will be as successful as CC edge weighting..
You would be scared to use it.

Any currently existing tool or plugin can use at any time function which should be monitored by undo system - plugin will start using f.e. add key, remove key, edit key (it can do it at any time, even middle rendering), undo system will be flood with events. You will be clicking undo and nothing visible will be happening (because there is hundred or thousand events already and maybe new are still added).. Any IK/dynamics baking tool would kill undo system- there is no function "start operation", and "end operation" to group undos into one, each key edit will be independent undo level.

Chuck
09-19-2012, 01:23 PM
As the heading suggests the undo system does not make working in layout pretty at all
The sluggishness of the system cost me a job today (obviously not pretty):(
I almost hanged myself for that

I also recall someone else also bitterly complaining about how useless undo is in lw when he realised he couldnt undo changes he had made to a scene after messing around with some motion modifiers

So NT PLEEASE FIX THE UNDO SYSTEM!
Shouldnt be that difficult you know

Fixing the undo system is actually extremely difficult or we would have done it ages ago. It's going to require major architectural changes, and those are on the drawing board of course, but when we'll get to that is potentially in the next ordinal cycle, but not guaranteed at this point; and if we do get it started it may not be fully completed within that cycle, just the start of a greatly improved system.

fablefox
09-20-2012, 03:09 AM
Fixing the undo system is actually extremely difficult or we would have done it ages ago. It's going to require major architectural changes, and those are on the drawing board of course, but when we'll get to that is potentially in the next ordinal cycle, but not guaranteed at this point; and if we do get it started it may not be fully completed within that cycle, just the start of a greatly improved system.

I don't really know how many other software users are laughing at this point, and copy paste above quote into multiple forum. But I do really wish Rob put something as core as this (no pun intended, or maybe I did) a little bit higher, than say, virtual studio? I mean, this effect everyone, but virtual studio is something that high end studio uses. But I do understand that Rob has to focus on biggest paymaster.

I hope for the best, since Genoma really cause me to blow dust off my dongle and start learning LW again! :thumbsup:

Anyway, I am a hobbyist programmer and I know what you are going through. Still, I just wish that this is higher in the priority list.

Ryan Roye
09-20-2012, 08:17 AM
It may be worth mentioning that IKBooster has a different undo system that is separate from Lightwave (probably to circumvent limitations of LW's undo system). This confused me at first which is why I mention it. If you want to undo IKB movements (IKB only!), you must be in IKB mode to do it.

Red_Oddity
09-20-2012, 09:23 AM
It is even more fun when you try to undo things in say the Surface Editor or Motion Mixer and you actually are undo-ing things in the main window, and thereby actually destroying the scene (because, hey, switching windows often clears the redo stack.)

It the sole purpose of our own incremental saver tools, luckily, we don't use LW in production much anymore.

creacon
09-20-2012, 10:10 AM
That's good to hear. I sincerely hope that multiple item editing is on the same list, because it has the same problems:

- For some things it works, like multiple surface editing, but multiselect surfaces, add node editor, add nodes and one surface will have the nodes, the others won't.
- For stuff like render options (dissolve) it works too, but select 3 objects and try to exclude them from a light or radiosity and it doesn't work.

Like undo this will need a global solution, not a manual patch each time functionality gets added.
The developers have proven to be smart people, so I am sure they are aware of all this.

creacon



Fixing the undo system is actually extremely difficult or we would have done it ages ago. It's going to require major architectural changes, and those are on the drawing board of course, but when we'll get to that is potentially in the next ordinal cycle, but not guaranteed at this point; and if we do get it started it may not be fully completed within that cycle, just the start of a greatly improved system.

mav3rick
09-20-2012, 12:28 PM
It is a lot more difficult than one might think......



hopefully some serious changes under the hood will happen in lw 12 so that will be adressed

vncnt
09-21-2012, 11:39 AM
I don't really know how many other software users are laughing at this point, ...

Actually, Im still using a video editor that is crashing the moment I use Undo. So Im not laughing.

Learn to use Save a lot, so you can reload the scene when needed.

However, LW could use a warning when using Undo while focus is on Graph Editor/etc to prevent unintended Undo.
Should be possible even with a limited s/w architecture.

Cageman
09-21-2012, 04:34 PM
A couple of things to think about regarding Undo in Layoyt....

1. It works quite well with keyframing. So, stick to using Undo for that (this doesn't apply to Morph Target animation though... )
2. Graph Editor only has 1 undo... so, keep that in mind.
3. Learn how to use Nodes for Shading and as Motion Modifier.... you will have plenty of Undo in Nodal.
4. My tip here is to get hold of RebelHills Nodal training videos... (http://www.rebelhill.net/html/rhn.html) once you've seen them, you will not want to use anything but Nodal in your work, wether it is Shading or Motion related... and as such, you'll also have a much better experience with LW and Undo in Layout.
5. As Chuck commented, the Undo in Layout requires a lot of work; architectual changes that isn't trivial at all to implement... until the time is right for Layout to get that rework of the architecture, as I've mentioned before, there are ways to work that makes things easier and a lot more relaxed.

:)

Matt
09-21-2012, 06:07 PM
Doing undo throughout Layout is a large task. At the very *minimum* we should look to have the basic undo we have in Layout (implemented for move, rotate and scale operations) and the undo in the Graph Editor use the same system, they are both undoing the same information essentially. It's not the ultimate solution we want, but would alleviate some frustrations in the meantime.

chco2
09-22-2012, 04:06 AM
Kinda getting tired of you replying in the forums and each time add the fact that you are now using different software. Don't care if you use it, but why mention it in your posts. So we can learn how great other pipeline and programs are? Com'on..


It is even more fun when you try to undo things in say the Surface Editor or Motion Mixer and you actually are undo-ing things in the main window, and thereby actually destroying the scene (because, hey, switching windows often clears the redo stack.)

It the sole purpose of our own incremental saver tools, luckily, we don't use LW in production much anymore.

jwiede
09-22-2012, 06:27 AM
Doing undo throughout Layout is a large task. At the very *minimum* we should look to have the basic undo we have in Layout (implemented for move, rotate and scale operations) and the undo in the Graph Editor use the same system, they are both undoing the same information essentially. It's not the ultimate solution we want, but would alleviate some frustrations in the meantime.
Another thing that'd be useful is if Layout could indicate when undo in a given context/dialog won't undo users' actions in there, but instead undo actions they did previously elsewhere (perhaps asking for confirmation, depending on alert level). It'd help clarify where undo isn't possible, and prevent the problem case where LW is actually (and destructively) undoing actions in a different area the user cannot see at that moment.

Red_Oddity
09-22-2012, 10:11 AM
Kinda getting tired of you replying in the forums and each time add the fact that you are now using different software. Don't care if you use it, but why mention it in your posts. So we can learn how great other pipeline and programs are? Com'on..

I use other software, yes, but i also use LW, is that such a crime these days? You must have missed the focus of the last LW upgrade cycles then.

Also, if you get so tired of my replies, you can always put me on your ignore list.