PDA

View Full Version : How much is this project worth that I am doing?



Philly85
09-07-2012, 09:05 AM
Right I am currently doing a GOWales Placement where my Uni that I just left are wanting their campus built in 3D, Here is what I have had to do so far.

Take my own reference pictures of the entire campus because there wasn't anything decent to use, Google Earth even had buildings missing, I had to do this twice because someone stole my camera the first time (not on the campus).

Go round the campus and take numerous shots of the whole place for textures because the Project Manager wanted to make it life like as possible so required me taking close ups of every building on the campus because of this.

Build the entire place in 3D, thank god they didn't want the inside modelled just the outside.

Texture the whole thing.

And finally they either want an animated video out of it or some coding where people can use it as an app to free-roam the campus.

How much would this cost if you were going to get someone to do a project like this?

I probably shouldn't ask as i'm not getting paid lol but i'm just very interested.

Thanks :)

short223
09-07-2012, 09:55 AM
In all honesty, you shouldn't be doing this for free. I recently created a faux campus for a company with a number of buildings to be placed on an interactive website to train their sales department. No animation was involved, just modeling, texturing and lighting. The fee was in the 5 figure range. They are asking you to do an even more detailed, accurate layout of their campus that could be interactively animated to travel around....for free?!?! And I'm sure they want something that would rival most movie productions too. I tell most of my students that although I understand that coming out of school that you may be hungry to do just about anything to get experience, but you should never do anything for free. If they had to outsource this to a professional firm, the amount of work that is involved that you are mentioning (photographing all the buildings and environments, accurately modeling and surfacing the buildings, animating MANY different scenarios for an app to "free-roam" the campus), they could be talking $40k to $50k US dollars and that firm would have a staff of people to work on it, not just one person. Sure you may find a place where they would do it for half that or less, but in the end, the amount of time spent will equate to around minimum wage or less.
My two cents (or pence)

Philly85
09-07-2012, 10:07 AM
I feel sick! lol.

Nah they don't want movie standard, if they wanted that I would have told them to stick it, basically thing had to be done in about 8 weeks? I have till end of month to complete final phase once I know what it is, but yeap been doing it by myself for nothing just so I can have something to put into a portfolio.

kopperdrake
09-07-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm with short on this one entirely. To model and render a single commercial building for a static shot can tip into four digits, depending on the complexity of the building. And that's from architect's drawings. What you've been asked to do is a large project - have you kept a record of how long you've spent on it?

short223
09-07-2012, 10:16 AM
...and a University, with money up the wazzoo, with get a very expensive animation for free....Sorry, I just don't see the benefit on your end. You could have done something similar on your own, without pressures of a deadline and created a better "portfolio" piece...that you would actually own in the end. Most likely you will only be able to show this work in a portfolio as all rights will be the property of the university... unless they had you sign a "work for hire" contract, then you technically didn't even do the work, they did. :(

Philly85
09-07-2012, 10:31 AM
I have signed nothing, my name will go on the website saying that I designed it, I doubt they will pay out now as I have nearly done but it was a placement with GOWales which sort out placements for graduates etc I have just finished there and applying for a MA there so don't want to do anything that will reflect badly on my MA Application.

I have not released anything to the PL other than screenshots all the work is still on my computer, I think I need to draw up a contract stating the work is mine and I can do what I like with it, don't know what to do for the best now.

The women from GOWales is supposed to be paying me transport fares but she isn't even attending any of the meetings.

Its for the HR department so the lady can use it as a training package for staff and possible new starters to show them where everything is.

short223
09-07-2012, 10:41 AM
I doubt they will allow you to do what you like with it, but I'm sure they will only allow you to have it in your portfolio for promotional purposes. It is not the first time major universities try to fleece the students and instructors of their skills all for the "good of the school". I've even read a recent full-time instructor job opening at a major university where they even mention that you would be responsible to provide services (other than teaching) to the university on an as-needed basis..... Sheesh...

Good luck with your project and future Masters enrollment...

JonW
09-09-2012, 01:28 AM
Have to agree with the others!

You can still put copyright on it unless you have given that away as well!

If you are stuck, provide them with a very very low resolution version with you name UV mapped on every wall & footpath etc. If they need the "high res" version....... $50k thank you! (without UV copyright name!)


I build physical architectural models & 3d models. They are a stack of work & problem solving, they need to be correct, you have/need a lot of skills to do these properly, resources equipment software needs to be constantly upgraded & you can't do this for free. Or you will be flipping hamburgers to subsidise charity work!

JonW
09-09-2012, 02:03 AM
You can't use any Google images unless you have got copyright permission to use them!

Make sure you have copyright over EVERY single image you use!

You are leaving yourself wide open to getting your arse sued!

This is a no go area under any circumstances!

If "supposedly" an unknown source images is accidentally used! The source will need to be confirmed, copyright purchased, or images replaced. All the images WILL need to be replaced with "your images", & all the work associated with it will cost $xxxx.xx

They will NOT be able to use the "Draft" you have done or they will ALSO be leaving themselves wide open for infringement of copyright & it's not worth the risk! $50k thank you! You will now pay to get all the images done "professionally" (in other words by yourself!) So now the finished product they can use for any purpose with no copyright infringement!

Large organisation are usually very prudent in this area. In your case they may need to be reminded of the situation!

You really need to take copyright seriously or you will be the one paying the price!

Beyond the copyright issue, this will be the way to get yourself out of this hole you have made for yourself..... Also cover arse!..... & make some money!

RebelHill
09-09-2012, 03:38 AM
Im largely in line with the other posters here, save for the fact that I think u should sack off the masters ur planning and switch to a business course, else ur gonna get so screwed in the years ahead.

djwaterman
09-09-2012, 03:58 AM
It's all true what everyone's saying, but there you are so you should just push on and complete the job. The up side is you will learn a lot, both technical and also get a good feeling on what a job like this entails, so next time your projection of what a job involves will be based on some hard slog, and you will feel justified setting your costs. You have probably already learned the biggest lesson, don't get down on yourself, I made similar mistakes when I started doing this stuff.

biliousfrog
09-09-2012, 06:32 AM
It's all true what everyone's saying, but there you are so you should just push on and complete the job. The up side is you will learn a lot, both technical and also get a good feeling on what a job like this entails, so next time your projection of what a job involves will be based on some hard slog, and you will feel justified setting your costs. You have probably already learned the biggest lesson, don't get down on yourself, I made similar mistakes when I started doing this stuff.

I agree that this kind of project isn't something I'd expect anyone to do for free but the reality is that you've already agreed to do it so it's too late to back-track now. I'm sure that we've all done jobs which we wish we'd quoted higher for but you just have to grit your teeth and put it down to experience...the alternative is to ask for more money and (rightly so) upset the customer, unless, of course, they have changed the scope of the project which is a different story...

As for how much you could have charged...well, that's something you can work out for yourself. You know how many hours you've spent on it, you can estimate extra costs like equipment, software and overheads over a year, add your preferred hourly rate and you can have sleepless nights for a while :D

You've had a great introduction to the world of project costing though and it sounds like a good project (and client) to have on your portfolio.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2012, 09:09 AM
I don't know the parameters of what they wanted, but I'm imagining something like Google Earth w/3d buildings.

You haven't signed anything, so don't sweat it. Make the absolutely minimum geometry necessary to support the bitmaps-- I'm talking BOXES here. Really, when I use G:E I don't mind boxes w/projections on the side, who cares?

Are they providing you with GIS data? Slap those boxes on a map, apply textures, head for the pub.

Philly85
09-09-2012, 10:31 AM
This is great thanks guys. Certainly something I will chalk up to experience.

As for images I have used one from google earth that I filtered out as free to use,share or modify even comercially, is that ok...?

I made a parking sign image myself in Photoshop.

All the textures I have used have been of their campus and taken on their campus to use on the project.

I will have to go over this copyrite issue with the lady on Thursday because I don't want anything coming back on me down the line. The images are pretty high quality to be honest even if taken with a 5PM Phone Camera lol.

The Lightwave im using for the project is a registered trial version same as the Photoshop one is, both havent got long left on the trial days lol.

I have just used mainly boxes with projections I tried UV Mapping with surface baking but they ain't paying so they ain't getting it, will take to long for me and I want some time to myself before starting my MA providing im accepted.

Yeah its a good experience and very good client to have, another reason why I won't hold up the project for money besides my MA application is because it wouldn't do my reputation any good professionally. People will just see "agreed to do project for nothing then wanted money near the end and held it up" they won't know my situation of basically being screwed because will probably put clients off if they see a bad review of me if you get me.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2012, 01:13 PM
People will just see "agreed to do project for nothing then wanted money near the end and held it up" they won't know my situation of basically being screwed because will probably put clients off if they see a bad review of me if you get me.
To be fair, it seems you mostly screwed yourself.

ShadowMystic
09-09-2012, 02:35 PM
I hate to seem pompous as if I'm trying to brag or be rube but I have two things to point out.

My first paid job out of school paid $35/hr for work a lot let intensive than what you are doing now.

And why don't you have a portfolio out of school? I've seen too many of my classmate think their class projects would get them jobs and ignore engaging in any personal projects to build their experience and personal portfolio.

archijam
09-09-2012, 03:19 PM
I would watermark the images, small and subtle, but not removable. If they want the watermark removed, they can pay for the privilege ; ) ...

If you had taken photographs, you could watermark them, or get mentioned on every image .. i would argue that way ..

http://bios.weddingbee.com/pics/131579/RJ_089e_watermark.jpg

...

.. It seems late in the piece, but the principle here is imprtant. It is not just you that did not get paid, someone else might have got paid for the job. The people involved think this work might not deserve to be paid, or for very little, if you set such examples. Generally not so good for the economy.

I am sure the HR person is being paid well to not bother to turn up to your meetings ... ; )

ShadowMystic
09-09-2012, 03:23 PM
I would watermark the images, small and subtle, but not removable. If they want the watermark removed, they can pay for the privilege ; ) ...

I would say this is appropriate.

archijam
09-09-2012, 04:07 PM
Which reminds me .. this was made by a dutch LW user! :D

http://maps.utwente.nl/

Excellent LW work, too.

(but for a decent slab of money, naturally ....)

He could perhaps give some info on costs etc:

http://www.nymus3d.nl/

.. he also has a watermark, see bottom right of that site (and he was paid).

JonW
09-09-2012, 04:31 PM
As for images I have used one from google earth that I filtered out as free to use,share or modify even comercially, is that ok...?


So don't use the ones that are free! It takes LOTS of time to find them! & they can't use it either in the product!

You really need to make sure they are free, read all the fine print carefully & also make a copy of this fine print & archive it. You should store all the information you use to create the job for seven years. You just don't know what might happen down the track. If there is an issue you have documentation to support yourself.


I don't know the parameters of what they wanted, but I'm imagining something like Google Earth w/3d buildings.

You haven't signed anything, so don't sweat it. Make the absolutely minimum geometry necessary to support the bitmaps-- I'm talking BOXES here. Really, when I use G:E I don't mind boxes w/projections on the side, who cares?

Are they providing you with GIS data? Slap those boxes on a map, apply textures, head for the pub.

It's the same issue with 3d data you need to check that you can actually use it. Read the fine print & keep a copy. Use simple boxes as that is all you can legally use because you don't have the data or survey.

(I've had the same issue with surveys. The surveyor just has to go & do the missing bits. Don't pinch data from one job to do another unless you have approval, including 3d data.)


It seems late in the piece, but the principle here is imprtant. It is not just you that did not get paid, someone else might have got paid for the job. The people involved think this work might not deserve to be paid, or for very little, if you set such examples. Generally not so good for the economy.

I am sure the HR person is being paid well to not bother to turn up to your meetings ... ; )

Even if you are not been paid you are still part of the chain. You have provided the information. If the situation arrises they will say that they have had nothing to do with it. Your arse is still exposed!

You need to do all your own work, buy other material or thoroughly confirm & document the use of free stuff. You will spend far more time fiddling around wasting time checking if you can use the free stuff. Just buy the products for the job, it is part of the job.



For your own reference as others have said. Use this experience to your advantage. You will now be aware of your legal position, time required to do all the work. Administration, archiving, accounting, tax returns, collecting cheques & other stuff not directly part of the job is about half the time & obviously cost, of any job.

All the running around within a job usually accounts for 50% of the work. The actual productive work is only a very small portion of the project. For example with a physical architectural model, at the very best cutting up plastic with a scalpel glueing together is about 5% of the time. The other 95% or more is gathering information, working out what is going on & other administration.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2012, 05:21 PM
It's the same issue with 3d data you need to check that you can actually use it. Read the fine print & keep a copy. Use simple boxes as that is all you can legally use because you don't have the data or survey.

(I've had the same issue with surveys. The surveyor just has to go & do the missing bits. Don't pinch data from one job to do another unless you have approval, including 3d data.)
Good point. OTOH, I'd expect a university to have their own maps and surveys. Get the rights to the ones the university has already paid for, and in writing.

(We really don't know enough to comment well on this: but these are all general principles.)

And: Yeah. "The work" isn't really "the work": the work is GETTING THE JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Philly85
09-10-2012, 02:41 AM
Thanks guys this is brilliant.

I have emailed the "placement" and asked them to clarify wether there is a fee involved besides my travel expenses (which I have never seen either as well as their representative) I think seeing as the only google picture I have used is of concrete I might as well go use my camera and take a picture of the road outside then I will be fine or just leave it untextured and apply the P sign I made over it.