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Ivan D. Young
09-03-2012, 07:21 PM
OK, So I am not going to post links to it. I am not even sure if it is the right thing to do or not.

But I know you guys have to be following the rumor threads about ADSK maybe changing up Max and putting Motion Builder in Maya and all that stuff.

So my friend Jim asked me, Isn't having Max for Modeling and Maya for animating like have Modeler to Model and Layout to animate the same thing?

Well isn't it? Sure seems that way to Me. So ADSK is doing what exactly? To be honest I am confused by the whole thing. I think it is a mistake, but whatever.

Weird times ahead I think.

geo_n
09-03-2012, 08:06 PM
MB into maya sounds great. Less need to have another app, an expensive one. Its the platform that has most potential being very open architecture.
Max can stand on its own and has survived while maya and xsi got sold.
Its too far off to compare max to modeller. Its atleast a decade advance than lightwave itself in terms of animation and modelling.
Looking at features since 2005 it already had characterstudio, mocap, animation layers, modstack, particleflow, crowd sim, cad modelling toolset, robust uv tools.
But hopefully newtek can catch up fast and not spend a decade doing so while Autodesk will be a bit idle for a few years reorganizing its appz.

Rayek
09-04-2012, 12:07 AM
Sounds logical to me - Maya is the de-facto character animation app in a lot of studios, and mocap editing is a crucial addition these days. The rig and tech has already been plugged into Maya, thus integration would be a logical next step.

Imaginary ADSK road map:
- Maya for film and animation studios, extending into VFX (to counter attack Houdini, if they can)
- Max for game studios, architectural visualization, CAD viz, pre-viz, modeling, etc. Create different 'versions' to cater to several niche markets
- Dumping XSI in a few years time, when all the innovative tech (ICE, Facerobot, etc.) is ripped out and integrated into Maya (based on observing what's happening the last year).

Bye bye XSI - it was good to have known you.

This roadmap sounds very reasonable to me. We will see what will happen rather sooner than later - ADSK is sailing in rough waters right now, and the pressure is building.

kopperdrake
09-04-2012, 04:17 AM
Looking at features since 2005 it already had characterstudio, mocap, animation layers, modstack, particleflow, crowd sim, cad modelling toolset, robust uv tools.

Blimey, I remember character studio being used by game animators in 2001 - over a decade ago!

Netvudu
09-04-2012, 05:23 AM
So far, I think the rumour ainīt really MAX for modelling and MAYA for animation. Thatīs a interpretation, and IMHO a simplified one.
Itīs more like MAX for CAD-oriented stuff and MAYA for VFX and film stuff, taking out all the VFX support from MAX and overloading MAYA with all VFX and animation stuff...which makes sense to me but itīs going to annoy many MAX users, not to talk about a LOT of VFX houses that are MAX-based, specially around Europe.

http://www.reddit.com/r/vfx/comments/z8o09/autodesk_is_no_longer_going_to_develop_3d%20smax_a nd/

They are not going to push MAX for modelling. They are moving it just for CAD stuff. Maya isnīt going to loose any modelling stuff.
Also, Motion Builder disappearing will hurt all the industry as thereīs no real alternative for mocap work.

geo_n
09-04-2012, 05:28 AM
Blimey, I remember character studio being used by game animators in 2001 - over a decade ago!

Really? I was in school back then. Lol! But yeah so after more than a decade we are only seeing this kind of functionality in c4d, modo, lw.
AD can afford to not update their software for atleast 3 years till everyone catches up. XSI is even maybe more advance which is too bad if they abandon it.

lardbros
09-04-2012, 05:40 AM
Max for CAD seems obvious in direction after installing 3dsMaxDesign 2013. It has importers for every major CAD format, although buggy and crashy as hell, and not much else has been added since 2007. It has had a few things, but they've also been taking away stuff too... reactor was removed, and now it has HardFX... which is actually quite nice. Like bullet in LW but with all he constraints and cloth etc. I don't ever go near all the new render engines, as they are inpractical and not interactive like they advertise.

I don't care what happens, we'll still use 3dsmax because all our legacy stuff is in that format. But, hey... if Newtek really get going on the amalgamation of Modeller and Layout, and put some even more awesome real-time feedback Modelling tools in... we may switch? :) (Not sure what the other guys and gals in the office would think. They mostly hate LW... :) )

erikals
09-04-2012, 06:10 AM
Not sure what the other guys and gals in the office would think. They mostly hate LW... :)

...did they say why though?
(it'd be interesting to know, so we can look at possible fixes)

...real-time feedback Modelling tools? hah! no way! are you trying to destroy years and years of our legacy? :]

 

geo_n
09-04-2012, 06:18 AM
Most non lwvers hate the split app. One co-worker ex-lwver also left lw because of the split app. Its actually easy to transition from lw to max because lw has a more simple and direct text based interface and teaches 3d concept fast. Its the split app that turns people away.

lardbros
09-04-2012, 06:35 AM
...did they say why though?
(it'd be interesting to know, so we can look at possible fixes)

...real-time feedback Modelling tools? hah! no way! are you trying to destroy years and years of our legacy? :]

 

Mainly because of the text buttons... and the way the software looks I think. These opinions are from people who've never even used it!! Icons look pretty to most people. Also it's the reputation that LW had... (i know it's changing) but people's pre-conceived ideas stick around... it's taken A LOT of hard work from me to show them how cool LW is. BUT... it's not over, they forget, and their old opinions still pop up.

The most common thing I hear is "Are they still separated?" :)

erikals
09-04-2012, 06:58 AM
Mainly because of the text buttons...

guess they dislike xSI even more then... :]
http://www.edharriss.com/tutorials/tutorial_XSI_interface/images/interface_large.jpg

as far as separation, yeah, i can see that one...
even though it also has big benefits, it can get tricky at times...

 

robertoortiz
09-04-2012, 08:03 AM
3dsMax Rumours – Response
Quote:
"Hi All

I wanted to share a statement from Autodesk’s Chris Vienneau, the Director of Product Management for the Media & Entertainment products. This relates the news which some of you may have found distracting around the recent false rumours of 3ds Max being discontinued. Many of you have contacted me over these myths and as such Chris has kindly allowed me to publicly re-share this with you all. This will certainly help set your mind at ease about their false nature.

Chris originally shared this on a web-forum/message board. For your reference, ‘EOL’ refers to ‘End Of Life’ and ‘PM’s’ relates to ‘Product Managers’. These, PM’s, are the people responsible for driving the powerful products we all care so much about."

http://jamiesjewels.typepad.com/jamies_jewels/

cagey5
09-04-2012, 08:42 AM
None of the rumours count as a 'myth'... Just sayin' :)

Netvudu
09-04-2012, 09:45 AM
This coming from the same people who swore on the Bible that they were buying XSI but not to let it die?
To me, if anything, this just confirms the rumour

Lewis
09-04-2012, 12:29 PM
The most common thing I hear is "Are they still separated?" :)

Same here. I have dozen of 3DSMAX friends and whenever new LW comes out their first response/question is same "is it still 2 apps" and then they move along since my answer sadly is always/still "yes" :(..

AbnRanger
09-04-2012, 02:25 PM
So far, I think the rumour ainīt really MAX for modelling and MAYA for animation. Thatīs a interpretation, and IMHO a simplified one.
Itīs more like MAX for CAD-oriented stuff and MAYA for VFX and film stuff, taking out all the VFX support from MAX and overloading MAYA with all VFX and animation stuff...which makes sense to me but itīs going to annoy many MAX users, not to talk about a LOT of VFX houses that are MAX-based, specially around Europe.

http://www.reddit.com/r/vfx/comments/z8o09/autodesk_is_no_longer_going_to_develop_3d%20smax_a nd/

They are not going to push MAX for modelling. They are moving it just for CAD stuff. Maya isnīt going to loose any modelling stuff.
Also, Motion Builder disappearing will hurt all the industry as thereīs no real alternative for mocap work.I have to disagree here. Max 2013's advantage pack includes PFlow Box 2, which offers particle dynamics (PhysX). and with AD buying a fluid simulation app, I can only see them incorporating that into Max...as it's the only one of the 3 without such capability built-in. If they add FumeFX in a future version, that would certainly justify the 15% increase and make it a very solid VFX solution right out of the box.

Nicolas Jordan
09-04-2012, 03:03 PM
I think these rumors are mostly being blown out of proportion. It really sounds like Autodesk is just trying to decide what products to invest most of their development efforts into.

hrgiger
09-04-2012, 05:16 PM
It would be downright silly for AD to discontinue Max, especially with all the work they've done on restructuring it (project XBR). Yet somehow I don't see the future of Softimage being all that bright under AD. Which is sad because I think its the best of the three apps.

robertoortiz
09-04-2012, 06:44 PM
It would be downright silly for AD to discontinue Max, especially with all the work they've done on restructuring it (project XBR). Yet somehow I don't see the future of Softimage being all that bright under AD. Which is sad because I think its the best of the three apps.
Amen!
It blows my mind the treatment Softimage is getting.

jwiede
09-04-2012, 06:49 PM
Amen!
It blows my mind the treatment Softimage is getting.
I think they expected the ICE stuff to be easier to move into Maya than it turned out, and now find themselves a bit stuck. They can't just tell customers dependent on ICE to move to Maya without a full equivalent, and they've got too many high-end Pro customers with XSI licenses to just kill it off without serious repercussions, so it lingers on in this odd limbo state. Just a guess, tho.

Celshader
09-04-2012, 07:18 PM
I think they expected the ICE stuff to be easier to move into Maya than it turned out, and now find themselves a bit stuck. They can't just tell customers dependent on ICE to move to Maya without a full equivalent, and they've got too many high-end Pro customers with XSI licenses to just kill it off without serious repercussions, so it lingers on in this odd limbo state. Just a guess, tho.

From what I've heard, XSI sells a tenth of the number of copies that Maya does, and Maya in turn sells a tenth of the copies that 3DS Max does. On top of that, Autodesk makes less from VFX software than it does from CAD software (http://cofes.com/Blogs/tabid/272/EntryId/257/Who-needs-PLM.aspx).

If XSI disappeared, I doubt Autodesk would feel it.

DigitalSorcery8
09-04-2012, 07:50 PM
If XSI disappeared, I doubt Autodesk would feel it.

Except the uproar from many users would probably make it a serious PR problem for them.

The financial loss from no more XSI sales would be minimal, but there might be more repercussions from the outrage.

It would certainly be interesting. :dance:

Nicolas Jordan
09-04-2012, 08:21 PM
From what I've heard, XSI sells a tenth of the number of copies that Maya does, and Maya in turn sells a tenth of the copies that 3DS Max does. On top of that, Autodesk makes less from VFX software than it does from CAD software (http://cofes.com/Blogs/tabid/272/EntryId/257/Who-needs-PLM.aspx).

If XSI disappeared, I doubt Autodesk would feel it.

I always thought XSI had huge potential especially compared to aging applications like Max and Maya. As soon as Autodesk purchased XSI that pretty much seemed to snuff out any glimmer of hope it might have had. It sounds like it might have been in trouble anyway though even if Autodesk wouldn't have bought it but if it would have been given just a few more years I think things would have really turned around for XSI. It's just such a shame that XSI being the most modern of the 3 apps has been relegated to a back seat it seems. :(

erikals
09-05-2012, 02:00 AM
...If XSI disappeared, I doubt Autodesk would feel it.

agree, most users would just be forced to buy another AD product anyway.
after all, what's the alternative...

 

Netvudu
09-05-2012, 06:03 AM
I have to disagree here. Max 2013's advantage pack includes PFlow Box 2, which offers particle dynamics (PhysX). and with AD buying a fluid simulation app, I can only see them incorporating that into Max...as it's the only one of the 3 without such capability built-in. If they add FumeFX in a future version, that would certainly justify the 15% increase and make it a very solid VFX solution right out of the box.

I think you are terribly disoriented. If for a single moment you thought that purchasing Naiad was directed towards MAX you seriously need to reevaluate your sector awareness. AD bought Naiad to incorporate it into Maya, for the same reason they are moving XSI "brains" into Maya dev team, to add ICE into Maya. This whole thing is a movement to empower Maya as THE VFX app to go to.
I know personally people from feature film studios using MAX who have been told by AD to abandon it and turn to Maya.
Iīve been personally talking to AD resellers who have told me not to look anymore at XSI and go for Maya.

It doesnīt take a genius to conclude they want to radically divide their market to avoid self-competence:
MAX for CAD stuff and Maya for VFX.

RebelHill
09-05-2012, 06:09 AM
havent these same rumours been going for like 6 years now?


agree, most users would just be forced to buy another AD product anyway.
after all, what's the alternative...

 

shame on you!

erikals
09-05-2012, 06:35 AM
 
guess that came across a bit harsh... i was basically referring to the people that found these LW features lacking >

FFX bugs / un-unified / slow modeler/layout / clothfx problems (bullet SB to the rescue?) / no-good bendyrigs / Lattice-lack / 1 undo might scare some of them.

the good thing though is that LW is getting there, soon, but not quite yet.
 
but i admit i ignored the users that wouldn't find those features very useful / or wouldn't need them, so yeah, a minor glitch there from me... (as that's actually a big chunk of users i over-looked)

 

rednova
09-05-2012, 06:52 AM
Hi :
I am very impressed at how people are dissapointed at lightwave being
'split' into two apps. Reason is, I really do love lightwave as it is.
I am very happy to have both modeler and lightwave. To me it is amazing
animation software, and see nothing wrong with being split into two apps.
I would ask Newtek to please keep lightwave as it is, consisting of two apps.
I love lightwave !!!

GraphXs
09-05-2012, 07:08 AM
What I need Lightwave to become is a unified solution for some task. I hope LWG can make that happen. I don't need to model exclusively in Layout, but I do want:

-camera based modeling
-corrective morphing/blend shapes
-weighting
-undos
-more integration between modifiers/bones,etc.

I hope they could add this to layout and bind modeler into a layout tab. (If they did that would people think its a separate program or just a "edit poly" mode.) They would have to fix the add layer function, and draw the model in the same openGL space, and get rid of all modeler redundant windows. (surface,image windows)

I do like the LWO/LWS, and I know they want to keep that.

RebelHill
09-05-2012, 07:15 AM
What I need Lightwave to become is a unified solution for some task. I hope LWG can make that happen. I don't need to model exclusively in Layout, but I do want:

-camera based modeling
-corrective morphing/blend shapes
-weighting
-undos
-more integration between modifiers/bones,etc.

I hope they could add this to layout and bind modeler into a layout tab. (If they did that would people think its a separate program or just a "edit poly" mode.) They would have to fix the add layer function, and draw the model in the same openGL space, and get rid of all modeler redundant windows. (surface,image windows)

I do like the LWO/LWS, and I know they want to keep that.

yeah, pretty much qfa.

erik, u do know i was just bustin ur balls right.

erikals
09-05-2012, 07:41 AM
erik, u do know i was just bustin ur balls right.

haha, no! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/aiwebs_017.gif http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

erikals
09-05-2012, 07:52 AM
Hi :
I am very impressed at how people are dissapointed at lightwave being
'split' into two apps. Reason is, I really do love lightwave as it is.
I am very happy to have both modeler and lightwave. To me it is amazing
animation software, and see nothing wrong with being split into two apps.
I would ask Newtek to please keep lightwave as it is, consisting of two apps.
I love lightwave !!!

and i agree to some extent, we just need to fix the problematic areas.
on the other hand, both Rob and Matt just confirmed the last days that they are on it, so hopefully we can expect to see a fix in the near future.

i too love the Modeler Layout separation, just not when i have to modify things in the camera view... >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYmspJP1Zk
Matt's comment > "This is something we are fully aware of. Same deal with painting Weights in Layout"

it's getting there though, like Rob and Matt said, they're on it.


I love lightwave !!!
me too :]

  

Hail
09-07-2012, 11:19 AM
and i agree to some extent, we just need to fix the problematic areas.
on the other hand, both Rob and Matt just confirmed the last days that they are on it, so hopefully we can expect to see a fix in the near future.

i too love the Modeler Layout separation, just not when i have to modify things in the camera view... >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYmspJP1Zk
Matt's comment > "This is something we are fully aware of. Same deal with painting Weights in Layout"

it's getting there though, like Rob and Matt said, they're on it.


me too :]

  

And me tooo... :D
I sometimes feel embarassed when trying to show friends or colleagues what lw can do, only to find myself struggling to undo something I did in the graph, dope sheet or even in the scene editor because it has only one undo.
In the case of the scene editor undo is zero :(

Come onnn.. newtek, isnt this where the modification of the code should start from?

geo_n
09-08-2012, 12:00 AM
After watching some latest AD presentations I SERIOUSLY doubt any of these softwares are going away. Development is still very much in progress.
Why make money on one software when you can make more with multiple software aka suites. Some features are just not found anywhere else outside of AD except houdini but c4d, modo, lw, etc, atleast 5 years behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUteFqAZF_U
That Softimage crowd sim makes 3dmax crowd sim look like a toy and other crowd/ flocking sims look like WIP alpha version. And it looks easy to do unlike my experience with Massive which was worse than visiting a dentist for a root canal.

geo_n
09-08-2012, 12:02 AM
Virtual Production.

The integration between maya, mudbox, mobu is seamless. There's also some asset management software that looks interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVPvNgH3g0c&feature=relmfu

Sexy dx11 uber shader viewport display making ipr's slow in comparison. Real time mocap retargetting and virtual camera.
Why discontinue the other two when you can jack up the price with additional software?

geo_n
09-08-2012, 12:07 AM
Looks really easy crowd sim that borrows heavily from max motionflow and biped crowd sim but 1000 more powerful and multi-threaded. They can afford not to update softimage for another five years and it wouldn't matter. Yes I'm very impressed since I haven't looked at softimage 2013 up to now. :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-1bJVzM3M0