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Snosrap
08-29-2012, 11:07 AM
What's next? Ford sueing GM because they use tires too? This is just total nonsense. It would be totally funny to see Xerox come out of the woods and sue Apple for stealing the GUI concept and the mouse. No respect here for Apple.

Darek Laszczyk
08-29-2012, 11:36 AM
+1

shrox
08-29-2012, 11:47 AM
Apple is for amateurs, or worse, those trapped by evil Apple convert/bosses.

Two buttons please, and a scroll wheel thanks.

zarti
08-29-2012, 12:58 PM
.. add some rounded corners over it for me .

no . not so big . smaller .. just like iPhone .. don't worry about them. yea' that's it . thanks !

Darth Mole
08-29-2012, 06:12 PM
Apple is for amateurs, or worse, those trapped by evil Apple convert/bosses.

Two buttons please, and a scroll wheel thanks.

When was the last time you even used a Mac?

Snosrap
08-29-2012, 07:02 PM
I have nothing against Apple products as they make some of the best devices available, but they are acting like 2 year olds with this silly lawsuit. What's really sad is 12 people bought their BS.

Cryonic
08-29-2012, 07:25 PM
Yeah, not sure how they can get away with look and feel when they've repeatedly lost when suing Microsoft for this exact same thing (Windows 95 Recycle Bin...)...

KevinMack
08-29-2012, 07:28 PM
Apple is for amateurs, or worse, those trapped by evil Apple convert/bosses.

Two buttons please, and a scroll wheel thanks.

You know not what you speak. I am 70-80% gestural with my magic trackpad and or magic mouse, its a super efficient way of working. I get PC users all the time throwing there hands up saying "What the **** is up with your mouse" it's amazing watching people get befuddled by simplicity.

As for apple suing samsung, where the hell are you all living under a rock?? The mobile market is estimated to be valued at nearly 300 billion dollars, apple isn't just suing samsung, samsung is suing apple, google is suing apple, who is suing nokia who is suing research in motion who is suing sony, who is suing who ever the hell else is left.

I love how people are jumping all over apple when they are one litigant in a business that attracts litigation like **** attracts flies. This thread is pointless.

Snosrap
08-29-2012, 07:35 PM
Samsung counter sued. Apple started the pissing match. Of course this thread is pointless. One day Apple, Samsung, MS and even Wal-mart will be pointless.

KevinMack
08-29-2012, 08:39 PM
Samsung counter sued. Apple started the pissing match...

Yes samsung counter sued, but I'm not certain your info that apple started this is accurate. Apple is the most SUED Company of all the telecoms and A LOT OF COMPANIES ARE SUING EACH OTHER and I've never read anywhere that apple started it. Perhaps they did but what difference does it make?? Take a look at the info graphic and then continue blaming apple for the actions of dozen of multi-billion dollar companies who all want to rule the world of mobile devices.

Snosrap
08-29-2012, 09:03 PM
Yeah I think the real loser here is the general public. Not because of any anti-competitive thing, but by just being sucked into this whole smart/cell phone thing to begin with. I suppose they can be handy at times, but give me a break - people can no longer live without the darn things. $100, $200 and $300 monthly phone bills it's no wonder nobody could afford their mortgage payments the last few years. :D

KevinMack
08-29-2012, 10:05 PM
Yeah, I am not an Iphone user and would love to be able to exist without a phone, because the bills are beyond ridiculous.

shrox
08-29-2012, 10:41 PM
You know not what you speak. I am 70-80% gestural with my magic trackpad and or magic mouse, its a super efficient way of working. I get PC users all the time throwing there hands up saying "What the **** is up with your mouse" it's amazing watching people get befuddled by simplicity.

As for apple suing samsung, where the hell are you all living under a rock?? The mobile market is estimated to be valued at nearly 300 billion dollars, apple isn't just suing samsung, samsung is suing apple, google is suing apple, who is suing nokia who is suing research in motion who is suing sony, who is suing who ever the hell else is left.

I love how people are jumping all over apple when they are one litigant in a business that attracts litigation like **** attracts flies. This thread is pointless.

I just never cared for macs, they've had over 25 years to hook me.

geo_n
08-29-2012, 10:57 PM
I can't live without mobile phones, IOS, Android both. Too many stuff in it that makes life a richer experience. :D
Exclusive discounts, promos, events, parties.
They're all sent through phones now and the only way to avail is through phones. Barcode scan to check calories of food, easter egg on posters, etc. Its a techy world. Not to mention the entertainment value with games, watching videos, e-reading.
Don't really care about this trial since it doesn't affect me directly as a consumer but its good reading.
http://www.phonearena.com/news/The-lead-story-Apple-v.-Samsung-trial_id32903

zarti
08-30-2012, 01:30 AM
this thread isnt pointless .

if you bring the focus of discussions on such thing like shape , functionalities , etc ., .. you will see that in the Big Picture many things are being Painted tremendously wrong .

consumers are part of the big picture , the most of it . the legal fears will stop better tools and utilities comming our way . thats my interest .

who the fax are you apple to not let me have another device with Rounded Corners with a radius of 0.4 cm ??!! .. Fax 'Em .

hope Rounded Corners plugin itself in modeler is safe .. Ha-Haa !

apple is arrogant and ridiculous . apple owns nothing . apple invented nothing . They just buy inventions from other true genius people . which use tools , formulas , ideas from other people and so on and on ..

Ha-hhaaaa ! It wd be really interesting to hunt from where all the things we have , have really come from . what if everybody starts finding holes on the law of this system and makes that as the way of earning moneys ?! .. instead of combining ideas to make our everyday easier and enjoyable ?


.

geo_n
08-30-2012, 01:51 AM
All the articles are there on the above post.
This one is directly related to origin of design.
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung-claims-Apples-iPhone-was-based-on-a-Sony-design-concept-floated-in-2006_id32687

Darth Mole
08-30-2012, 02:47 AM
I just never cared for macs, they've had over 25 years to hook me.


I just never cared for PCs, they've also had 25 years to hook me. But I don't go trolling round forums bleating ill-informed anti-Microsoft propaganda. God knows I could...

3dworks
08-30-2012, 03:45 AM
ok, time to get some facts: samsung is well known for being one of the most aggressive companies world wide - even more aggressive than apple. not only they did target and sue companies like sony, but many other large players worldwide in order to expand their volume massively. their management is targeting to take over general electric by the year 2020 in the world wide ranking of most popular brands. btw., internally, samsung managers call apple's iphone as 'galaxy A', 'A' standing for apple, which talks a bit about their perspective of seeing things. as a matter of fact, apple is also dependent on samsung technology components, so they indeed are focusing to develop strong software, caring about design and functionality of their products and defend their design with their teeth. what would you do if someones steals many of your design ideas and then successfully sells products - basically after copying them -, making much more money with it than you do (samsung is selling far more smart phones than apple)? would you - as a shareholder company - just sit down and watch things happening?

some more infos about samsung as a company here, sorry in german only: http://www.manager-magazin.de/finanzen/artikel/0,2828,834337,00.html

what i don't get is the car - tires analogy. for example, if someone takes your idea for an animated character, produces a tv series and sells it for gold to all tv stations around, would that be OK for you? the analog argument would be: after all, you didn't invent computer animated characters, everyone is using them, so what? pixar could start to sue dreamworks or the other way round just for using animated characters. it's more about the design details, not the principles.

of course, customers will not be happy in the short term. if some samsung products will be banned from certain markets. but in the long term end, products will probably get functionally better if companies have to care more to develop their own diversified solutions. it's obvious that a 'copy and paste' mentality is just generating product clones with sometimes reduced quality, being the general rule of the markets to get the maximum of profit with the lowest possible investment. if you take ideas from others and don't have to invest much into design research but focus on how you can produce a given technology cheaper, you won't get better, just cheaper, but similar products for consumers in the end. if cheaper = better is the formula, this isn't all that bad as well, of course...

btw. for those living in the past: apple has abandoned the one button mouse since the year 2000...

ken_g9
08-30-2012, 06:49 AM
This is the most comprehensive article I've seen on the internet of the Samsung vs. Apple trial. http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/31/3207848/apple-vs-samsung-complete-trial-coverage

It's interesting how the jury came up with the decision.

BigHache
08-30-2012, 06:54 AM
but in the long term end, products will probably get functionally better if companies have to care more to develop their own diversified solutions.

This is what I look forward to seeing.

I actually don't care for smart phones, I'll keep my stupid phone thank you. I have a full qwerty keyboard, non touch screen phone that costs less than $100 and so does my phone bill. Because all this shiny tech is great but all I need in the end is send/receive calls and texts.

geo_n
08-30-2012, 07:01 AM
Can't help it but they do look similar from a typical consumer pov.
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/4843121/snapple_lead_large_large.png
I worked for a company involved in patents before and my former boss told me that there's such a thing as design patents. For ex a ferrari design even the silhouette can't be similar from another company and if it is, its grounds for a lawsuit. I thought he was talking b.s. until I saw how detailed the patents need to be in graphics, words and tech jargon.

ken_g9
08-30-2012, 07:44 AM
The only problem with that picture is that the Galaxy SII was scaled down to the size of the iPhone. It's a lot bigger when seen. That being said, it does looks alike in a way.

If you've seen the Apple design patents, they are very specific. Hence you'd hear lots of "black slab with rounded corner" claims.

Cageman
08-30-2012, 07:47 AM
Did Nintendo sue Sega when they released their Master System that had a very similar gamepad? Looked different, but same functionality.

Did Sony sue Microsoft for the gamepad designs that are quite similar?

In another court (outside of US) both parties (Apple and Samsung) lost. But for some reason, in US it turned to favour Apple...

I've never liked Apple as a company, nor their products. I rather get my PCs and smartphones that are designed to run much more open and "free", if you will...

Philbert
08-30-2012, 07:50 AM
The worst thing about this trial was that the jury had basically decided the verdict before even looking at the evidence. What evidence they were allowed to see that is. Most of Samsung's perfectly good evidence was thrown out.

I read a hilarious article about Samsung paying the $1b to apple with trucks full of nickles. Unfortunately the article was a joke. Later I realized it would be impossible to get that many nickles in such a short time.

raymondtrace
08-30-2012, 07:54 AM
I can't blame either company for the legal action. This nonsense happened in a US court because of way too liberal US patent law. The US would allow someone to patent a new way to sneeze. Check out this silly patent that was only accepted because of a minor nuance of touch: http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/13/apple-awarded-limited-patent-on-pinch-to-zoom/

But I can certainly blame companies for pretending they have original ideas when they clearly base their product so heavily on BSD, WebKit, etc. Apple was built on copying the work of others.

"We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas." -- Steve Jobs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU
http://www.ted.com/talks/kirby_ferguson_embrace_the_remix.html

The "Apple is for amateurs" comment is right on (and this is not coming from a platform bigot... I have Mac/Win/Lin computers on my desk). Many pros are concerned that Apple is moving to the mass gadget market and away from the desktop. They make more revenue from their online media and app store than they make producing creative tools for professionals. The only exclusive reason to buy a Mac these days is to run Xcode to produce iOS apps.

ken_g9
08-30-2012, 08:01 AM
The worst thing about this trial was that the jury had basically decided the verdict before even looking at the evidence. What evidence they were allowed to see that is. Most of Samsung's perfectly good evidence was thrown out.

My thoughts exactly. With the amount of data the jury had to review and go through, it only took them 2 and a half days to reach a conclusion and even reach an amount for the damages. Some even are questioning whether the evidences were properly checked or not.

According to the jury interview, it seems like they just immediately agreed that Samsung infringed then discussed which products did. As for the Samsung's claims of the 3G patents against Apple, it seems that it was not reviewed at all.

3dworks
08-30-2012, 09:34 AM
The "Apple is for amateurs" comment is right on (and this is not coming from a platform bigot... I have Mac/Win/Lin computers on my desk). Many pros are concerned that Apple is moving to the mass gadget market and away from the desktop. They make more revenue from their online media and app store than they make producing creative tools for professionals. The only exclusive reason to buy a Mac these days is to run Xcode to produce iOS apps.

yeah, just ignore those amateurish hundreds of thousands pro's using macs every day for creating graphic designs, photographs, videos, for designing buildings, or just for writing best sellers... some are even using macs for 3d and compositing! ...what a...! :D

safetyman
08-30-2012, 09:45 AM
Unfortunately, in the US (can't speak for other countries), jurys are flawed beyond belief. The whole system is out of whack. People vote to convict/equit based on emotion, opinion, how the defendant/plaintiff looks, etc. rather than facts. Happens all the time. For example: The OJ trial (groan). One jury found him not guilty (criminal trial), and one found him guilty (the civil trial). What a joke. How can a guy be aquitted of murder in the highest profile case in US history, then be found guilty months later? The answer is -- the 2nd jury voted to "right the wrong" of the first jury. Simple as that. Not based on facts.

My point is that the US jury in this Samsung v Apple case saw Samsung as a big, foreign, hostile take-over-er, and Apple as this poor little picked on domestic company that makes really cool stuff. I'll bet 75% of the jury went home after the trial and downloaded a bunch of stuff to their ipods on itunes.

Dexter2999
08-30-2012, 09:58 AM
yeah, just ignore those amateurish hundreds of thousands pro's using macs every day for creating graphic designs, photographs, videos, for designing buildings, or just for writing best sellers... some are even using macs for 3d and compositing! ...what a...! :D

And how much improvement did Apple put into the new MacPro? And what did they do with the 17" MacbookPro preferred by professional users? And what did they do with Shake? And what did they do with Final Cut Pro? And what happend to the Mac Server?

I'm not saying professionals don't use Mac's. I'm saying that Apple is setting a precedent that they are slanting their business model to the larger consumer market than they are the professional one.

And no need to bash Windows, they have Metro, they have enough problems of their own.

raymondtrace
08-30-2012, 10:40 AM
yeah, just ignore those amateurish hundreds of thousands pro's using macs...

We're pretty sure that is exactly what Apple is doing now: ignoring their pro users.

It is no secret that there is a greater 3D design ecosystem than what is available for Mac. And there truly is a technical deficit in the Mac design world. Macs got 64bit Photoshop after Windows users. And Adobe is wrestling with 10bit/channel display on Mac (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/736938?start=0&tstart=0).

shrox
08-30-2012, 01:54 PM
I just never cared for PCs, they've also had 25 years to hook me. But I don't go trolling round forums bleating ill-informed anti-Microsoft propaganda. God knows I could...

Well. I am hardly "bashing", but I do get tired of people acting like I am not a professional because I don't use a Mac. But that is mostly in print work I find.

gerry_g
08-30-2012, 04:13 PM
don't want to enter the Mac v PC thing, respect what people use and leave it at that, but I work quite a lot in retail design and the most common brief handed out is a picture of a competitors product with the explicit instruction to rip it off but not to rip it off to the point they get their asses sued off, so yeah I'd say that is what happened here, no if's no buts.

Darth Mole
08-30-2012, 04:17 PM
@ Shrox: Well they're as ill-informed as anyone, then. It just made me angry: I own a 12-core MacPro with 10GB of RAM and a 27-inch LED display. It runs LW, modo, C4D, After Effects, Photoshop, RealFlow, Vue, Z Brush and a heap of other high-end apps. The term 'amateur' is utterly undeserved. Apple has promised a new MacPro for next year and I fully intend to buy one. And I will, no doubt, sell this one on and get a very good return on it as I have my seven previous desktop Macs.

If you're 'Friendly to Lightwavers' it should't matter what machine we use...

3dworks
08-30-2012, 05:05 PM
We're pretty sure that is exactly what Apple is doing now: ignoring their pro users.

It is no secret that there is a greater 3D design ecosystem than what is available for Mac. And there truly is a technical deficit in the Mac design world. Macs got 64bit Photoshop after Windows users. And Adobe is wrestling with 10bit/channel display on Mac (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/736938?start=0&tstart=0).

well, apart of an official statement of apple head tim cook announcing news for 'pro' users early next year, there are already hints for new pro macs in the current OSX version, also for support of 10 bit framebuffers, see for example here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/151850/apple-files-hint-at-re-engineered-imac-and-mac-pro-models-potentially-without-optical-drives). btw. i'm still happy using my 'old design' 12 core mac pro, fast enough for all the jobs i'm currently doing with LW, maxwell, kray, etc.

warmiak
08-30-2012, 06:03 PM
The worst thing about this trial was that the jury had basically decided the verdict before even looking at the evidence. What evidence they were allowed to see that is. Most of Samsung's perfectly good evidence was thrown out.

I read a hilarious article about Samsung paying the $1b to apple with trucks full of nickles. Unfortunately the article was a joke. Later I realized it would be impossible to get that many nickles in such a short time.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/apple-vs-samsung-blurring-the-line-between-paying-homage-and-blatantly-ripping-off/12381

In this case I am with the jury.

Ernest
08-30-2012, 07:11 PM
The worst thing about this trial was that the jury had basically decided the verdict before even looking at the evidence. What evidence they were allowed to see that is. Most of Samsung's perfectly good evidence was thrown out.

The jury had not decided the verdict beforehand. In the interview, the jury foreman explains that most of the jury were going the other way and he had to convince them that he knew about patents because he holds an (ipad-related) patent, in order to sway them to vote against Samsung.

EDIT: Among other things, he instructed them not to "waste time" on examining prior art because that's "not relevant".

http://www.cultofmac.com/187833/patent-held-by-apple-vs-samsung-jury-foreman-could-spell-trouble-for-apple/


for example, if someone takes your idea for an animated character, produces a tv series and sells it for gold to all tv stations around, would that be OK for you? the analog argument would be: after all, you didn't invent computer animated characters, everyone is using them, so what?

Exactly! It's all about how broad or specific the patent is. Whether the diagram represent a real innovation or not. Imagine how many animation would be produced today if you could not make a character that is a mouse, a duck, a bunny, that has a square shape, or anything that's been done before.
Forget about Kung Fu Panda, there was already an Andy Panda so it's clearly an infringement, right?
Except that it clearly isn't. Just like Ratatouille is not a an infringement on Mickey Mouse and Spongebob should not be allowed to sue Monokuro Boo because their pigs have a square shape.

That doesn't mean that real infringements shouldn't be punished.

I mean, what kind of patent diagram is this?
How in the world can this diagram pass as a real patent-worthy design invention that no one else should be able to use, not even after changing the proportions, bezel size, or overall size?
http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2011/08/PocketPC.jpg
http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2011/08/pocketPC-2.jpg
(Yes, this is the actual diagram on the patent application.)

Dexter2999
08-30-2012, 07:14 PM
I think Etch-a-sketch should sue Apple for a BILLION DOLLARS!!!!

Snosrap
08-30-2012, 07:48 PM
Well IMO some patents are just silly. Case in point, my boss insisted that I apply for a patent on a door system I developed for an entertainment center I designed. http://www.google.com/patents/US20090115298 I remember laughing out load when he mentioned it. I think we only sold about 5,000 of those things. :D I find hard to believe that something so seemingly simple would even be patentable - it's a freak'n door for gods sake. Rounded corners. How is that even plausible? Inertia scrolling? - Maybe. But who did Apple steal that from? :D Great time to be a patent lawyer, I can't even begin to tell you how expensive and drawn out it is for a simple door system, let alone a complex piece of software and electronics.

shrox
08-30-2012, 08:39 PM
@ Shrox: Well they're as ill-informed as anyone, then. It just made me angry: I own a 12-core MacPro with 10GB of RAM and a 27-inch LED display. It runs LW, modo, C4D, After Effects, Photoshop, RealFlow, Vue, Z Brush and a heap of other high-end apps. The term 'amateur' is utterly undeserved. Apple has promised a new MacPro for next year and I fully intend to buy one. And I will, no doubt, sell this one on and get a very good return on it as I have my seven previous desktop Macs.

If you're 'Friendly to Lightwavers' it should't matter what machine we use...

First of all, I thought it would clearly be seen as a jest. Second, I said it was mostly in print work that I find that attitude of "if you don't use macs you're not a pro".

raymondtrace
08-30-2012, 09:30 PM
...see for example here (http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/151850/apple-files-hint-at-re-engineered-imac-and-mac-pro-models-potentially-without-optical-drives). btw...

I appreciate that you are trying to prove that you and I use a Mac for professional purposes but you seem to be arguing something that I am not. I was only pointing out that Apple is turning attention from pro users in favor of its more profitable amateur gadgets, as evidenced by their actions in this patent case... and via the link you just provided. 3/4 of Mac sales are laptops and the majority of the desktop systems are iMacs. Mac Pro systems are a minority (~10%) of a minority platform (~12%). Apple is clearly favoring the more lucrative amateur market. That is why it is perfectly accurate to recognize that "Apple is for amateurs". Apple's primary market has always been amateurs. That is not a slight to the few of us that use Mac professionally.


"...there appears to be an increasingly limited market for high end desktops, particularly in comparison to the mass market sales Apple is seeing with its iOS devices like the iPad (which now outnumbers all Mac sales combined), as well as the company's more consumer-oriented notebook and desktop Macs. (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/10/31/despite_new_cpu_options_apple_reportedly_questioni ng_future_of_mac_pro/)"

Verlon
08-30-2012, 10:31 PM
Since only the jury saw everything that was presented in the trial, the rest of us are making things up to make them seem a)brilliant or b)idiots depending on where we decided to be before seeing any evidence.

The terms were laid out for both groups, and, from what I read, Samsung blew it. Their presentations were crap. Some of them didn't work right. They mismanaged time. The evidence that wasn't allowed was disallowed because it wasn't submitted in time for the deadline (what happens at your job when you miss deadlines?). This wasn't some poor, destitute inventor taking on 'the man.' This is a gigantic megacorp who can afford decent lawyers.

Samsung has been caught with their hand in the patent cookie jar on numerous occasions. My own employer went rounds with them, and they had to settle (and our initial lawsuit was for more money than Apple's).

Now, if you invented the iPhone and iPad, how would you protect your investment to keep folks from blatantly copying it? What would the language be for YOUR patent?

Remember that part of Apple's evidence was not only Samsung's internal documentation talking about how they were going to copy the iDevices, but advice from Google telling Samsung that they thought Samsung had gone too far.

Of Course Samsung says it is bad for the consumer. What did you expect? A press release where Sammy comes out and says "All right, we're busted. We ripped them guys off because it was easier than trying to come up with our own product," is just never going to happen. (and if Apple had lost, they wouldn't have said "Yeah, that was some pretty silly phrasing in the patent," either).

Microsoft demonstrated with Windows Phone that the iPhone way isn't the only way of making a touchscreen smartphone.

And as far as car analogies go, you would be surprised. The Porsche 911 was originally called the Porsche 901. They got a call from Peugeot informing them that the French automaker claimed ownership of all three digit numbers with a 0 in the middle. So Porsche renamed their car.

There are numerous license issues in making a car, but we aren't as much in that loop so we do not hear about it as often. Start a car company called Fjord and make a 2+2 pony car called the Stallion and see how far you get. The Mustang wasn't even named for a horse (it was really named after the airplane). Feel free to use that in your court case because there WILL be a court case. You can only copy so much before it goes from flattery to infringement.

Philbert
08-30-2012, 11:24 PM
Latest news, a Japanese court just ruled that Samsung did not infringe on an apple patent.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-31/apple-loses-japan-patent-lawsuit-against-samsung-over-devices.html

zarti
08-31-2012, 04:50 AM
20 minutes of healthy-humorous-objective-truth :

Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything?

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0

--



=}-

3dworks
08-31-2012, 04:54 AM
...Mac Pro systems are a minority (~10%) of a minority platform (~12%). Apple is clearly favoring the more lucrative amateur market. That is why it is perfectly accurate to recognize that "Apple is for amateurs". Apple's primary market has always been amateurs. That is not a slight to the few of us that use Mac professionally.

well, powerful desktop workstations are a restrited 'minority' market on both big platforms, probably you will see the same distribution between sold 'pro' units compared to all purpose pc's as within the mac line. what i mean: the big mass of windows based products is for mainstream consumers, the same ways as imacs are...

but the slogan 'apple is for amateurs' implies that all apple users are amateurs. maybe it's good then to know what 'amateur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur)' means. an amateur is someone loving and focussing on a certain activity, but generally regarded as not taking it as 'seriously' as a professional would do. for a 'pro' it's certainly not a compliment when someone tells him to be 'amateurish'. all this has nothing to do with the mainstream consumer market and related desktop hardware. as a matter of fact you can do amateurish work with a 12 core machine and be a pro using an ipad.

of course, we will see what will happen in the near future with that apple 'pro' segment. but signs are there that apple is not about to abandon this 'niche' market at all.

safetyman
08-31-2012, 05:18 AM
20 minutes of healthy-humorous-objective-truth :
Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything?
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0

--
=}-

Great video.

meshpig
08-31-2012, 06:01 AM
I just never cared for macs, they've had over 25 years to hook me.

Yes well, one drinks champagne every day because it's digestible but stimulants are better. MS is a good CNSD (central nervous system depressant)... increase productivity, get with the program, be normal, feel guilty, do as you're told, get real, get back to work, get a freakin job, haircut, wife, new car and work harder.

As if MS didn't get screwed in the Euro zone not so long ago for the same corporate infantilism.

Once upon a time macs were uppers...

Philbert
08-31-2012, 06:19 AM
20 minutes of healthy-humorous-objective-truth :

Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0


I've shared this video a few places myself, pretty funny.

raymondtrace
08-31-2012, 07:09 AM
...the slogan 'apple is for amateurs' implies that all apple users are amateurs.
No. You infer that is what the comment means. What my comment implies was perfectly clear if you would read the sentences that appear before and after. That is what 'context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context_%28language_use%29)' means.

Citing the fact that Apple is more interested in selling to amateurs than to pros is not a personal insult to you and me, who use Macs professionally. I implied no offense so there is no reason for you to infer an insult. Lighten up.

Kuzey
08-31-2012, 07:33 AM
20 minutes of healthy-humorous-objective-truth :

Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything?

=}-

What..no mention of Apple inventing water or electricity..or even the automobile :D

Taking Steve Wozniak out of the equation, is like taking Microsoft out of PC history...it does not make sense. Anyway, no one really invents anything anymore..it's just combining existing parts..or getting others to make those parts you need..in order to create something that wasn't around before...doh :hey:

Man, that guy is stuck in a bad 80's music video..he needs to update his hairdo/beard recipe :)

Kuzey

Verlon
08-31-2012, 08:01 AM
20 minutes of healthy-humorous-objective-truth :

Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything?

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0

--



=}-

Apple is a "recipe company?" Ok, but the x86 processor is just a pile of solid state transistors, so Intel's entire empire is built on a derivative work of the Bell Labs invention? And Intel sued AMD repeatedly for making copies after they gave AMD the rights to make it (AMD was supposed to have the rights, but not actually make anything).

Wait, the solid state semiconductor was actually a new recipe for vacuum tubes.

But wait...a vacuum tube is just a new recipe for a relay...

But wait... a relay is just a new recipe for a switch..

Using that logic, because Unga Bunga, neanderthal visionary, invented fire, all hardware is a derivative of that invention and no patents are valid.

Ancient Sumerians invented writing, so all writing, including computer code is a derivative work.

So now all patents and copyrights are null and void.

Good luck with that.

dsol
08-31-2012, 08:28 AM
OK, deep breaths everyone. I think it's fair to say the jury on the Apple/Samsung trial were better informed than anyone in this forum.

For those who think Apple stole all their technology from Xerox, well that's not strictly true. Apple paid quite a large chunk o' change to use those technologies, unlike MS. Xerox also bought a ton of pre-IPO shares in Apple and made a huge profit from them when they went public.

http://www-sul.stanford.edu/mac/parc.html

One of the most damning pieces of evidence in my eyes - and also a key factor for the jury as we discovered - was Google themselves warning Samsung that their hardware and software was too clearly a copy of the iPhone. The stupid thing is, it's Samsung's own software modifications to the base Android UI (via their crappy TouchWiz UI) that caused the majority of the infringements. Which isn't really necessary as the stock UI in Android 4.x is really very lovely!

EDIT: This New Yorker piece provides a very good overview of the origins of the Macintosh and OSX - and how much UI stuff Apple actually invented. Clue: It's quite a lot
"Xerox PARC’s innovation had been to replace the traditional computer command line with onscreen icons. But when you clicked on an icon you got a pop-up menu: this was the intermediary between the user’s intention and the computer’s response. Jobs’s software team took the graphical interface a giant step further. It emphasized “direct manipulation.” If you wanted to make a window bigger, you just pulled on its corner and made it bigger; if you wanted to move a window across the screen, you just grabbed it and moved it. The Apple designers also invented the menu bar, the pull-down menu, and the trash can—all features that radically simplified the original Xerox PARC idea."
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

Bill Carey
08-31-2012, 08:37 AM
I find this whole thread bizarre coming from a bunch people that would go nuts if their art was put on a t-shirt and sold by others for a profit. It has nothing to do with the invention of a black slab and everything to do with how the elements are put together.

raymondtrace
08-31-2012, 08:57 AM
"...If you wanted to make a window bigger, you just pulled on its corner and made it bigger..."
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

I wonder if someone else's patent kept Apple from allowing this resize from more than just the bottom right corner. It is a silly nuisance for Mac users. Every other OS for the past decade or so allowed resizing windows from any side/corner.

safetyman
08-31-2012, 10:09 AM
...This New Yorker piece provides a very good overview of the origins of the Macintosh and OSX - and how much UI stuff Apple actually invented. Clue: It's quite a lot...


Yes but the guy in the vid made it clear that he wasn't talking about software, only hardware.

What I take away from all this is that Apple is becoming what people have harped on MicroSoft for years for... Namely becoming an "evil empire". Not trying to be slanderous here, as I have nothing against Apple OR MS, but when you think about it, Apple wants to be an island, destroy all competition, and have everyone buy VW's and put flowers on their dashboards. It's like greed, rather than innovation, is the driving force nowadays, and not just with Apple.

zarti
08-31-2012, 10:41 AM
..

.. he needs to update his hairdo/beard recipe :)

Kuzey

ha ! , i believe he is afraid of changing hair style because of copyright laws .. =) he might look like someone else .

while as it is , it looks pretty Original .. Authentic .



.

3dworks
08-31-2012, 11:13 AM
I find this whole thread bizarre coming from a bunch people that would go nuts if their art was put on a t-shirt and sold by others for a profit. It has nothing to do with the invention of a black slab and everything to do with how the elements are put together.

:thumbsup:

3dworks
08-31-2012, 11:20 AM
No. You infer that is what the comment means. What my comment implies was perfectly clear if you would read the sentences that appear before and after. That is what 'context (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context_%28language_use%29)' means.

Citing the fact that Apple is more interested in selling to amateurs than to pros is not a personal insult to you and me, who use Macs professionally. I implied no offense so there is no reason for you to infer an insult. Lighten up.

just reading and interpreting. as for the 'amateur' slogan, i was really refering not to your post but to the original from shrox, where there are no sentences before and just one outdated after.


Apple is for amateurs, or worse, those trapped by evil Apple convert/bosses.

Two buttons please, and a scroll wheel thanks.

so, no offense taken and no offense given, just commenting an inappropriate statement. parenthesis closed. moved on.

Lightwolf
08-31-2012, 11:51 AM
One thing that immediately jumps out to me are the software patents in the case.
And many of them are just silly to be honest. I would argue that any competent software designer would come up with those solutions if faced with the same problem (it's not like it hasn't happened before - or was even implemented earlier).
One of the main requirements is "non-obviousness" - however that term seems to be quite loosely defined by the looks of it.

Cheers,
Mike

ShadowMystic
08-31-2012, 12:28 PM
Galaxy 10.1 Barred from US Sale. Maybe I'll import one because I won't get an IPad. And its funny to see the difference in damages allowed per country and the various judgements. One say Samsung is a greedy copy-cat 1B$. One says no Samsung isn't,Apple must pay court costs. Another says they copied eachother...*chuckle*

Kuzey
08-31-2012, 01:45 PM
ha ! , i believe he is afraid of changing hair style because of copyright laws .. =) he might look like someone else .

while as it is , it looks pretty Original .. Authentic .



.

Haha...I guess what they say is true..what was once old is new again..but that thing should be outlawed :D

Kuzey

BeeVee
08-31-2012, 02:03 PM
His beard made me think of Wes Bentley's character Seneca Crane in The Hunger Games film.

http://bit.ly/HXkK5p.

B

Shabazzy
08-31-2012, 07:13 PM
I can't wait to see if Samsung find a more Korean friendly country that will uphold their lawsuit against Apple and order Apple to pay billions of dollars to them.

Wouldn't that be fun?

Any takers on which country that would be?

Taking all bets.

evenflcw
08-31-2012, 07:34 PM
Well obviously, to go full circle, without any skewing, it should be/have been South Korea. No fun if it's a (seemingly) more neutral country.

Darth Mole
09-01-2012, 03:41 AM
I wonder if someone else's patent kept Apple from allowing this resize from more than just the bottom right corner. It is a silly nuisance for Mac users. Every other OS for the past decade or so allowed resizing windows from any side/corner.

Uh, Lion and Mountain Lion allow dragging from anywhere. Fact-checking not big on this forum is it?

warmiak
09-01-2012, 08:38 AM
Well obviously, to go full circle, without any skewing, it should be/have been South Korea. No fun if it's a (seemingly) more neutral country.

Apple could simple stop selling their products in Korea ... can Samsung afford to do the same in the US?

dsol
09-01-2012, 09:46 AM
One thing that immediately jumps out to me are the software patents in the case.
And many of them are just silly to be honest. I would argue that any competent software designer would come up with those solutions if faced with the same problem (it's not like it hasn't happened before - or was even implemented earlier).
One of the main requirements is "non-obviousness" - however that term seems to be quite loosely defined by the looks of it.

Indeed - and to bring up a point that is relevant to LW, Software Patents on interface designs are a colossal PITA. Since Adobe and Macromedia merged, many crucial design elements of interface design are now held by one player. Now there may well be examples of prior art, but every court case fought drains funds from, y'know, actually MAKING software.

The whole system needs an overhaul. 20 years is ridiculously long, particularly in a field like software where innovation and product cycles can be measured in months...

zarti
09-01-2012, 09:59 AM
The whole system needs an overhaul. 20 years is ridiculously long, particularly in a field like software where innovation and product cycles can be measured in months...

Absolutely Right !

.. But guess what ?

those who can ' Win ' trials , can even more easily .. stop Changes .

or not ?


=}-

zardoz
09-01-2012, 05:50 PM
well I didn't read the whole thread so I'll just leave these links here:
Kirby Ferguson: Embracing the remix - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd-dqUuvLk4
(clip from previous video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB6bTDrvZqY)
Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0

zardoz
09-01-2012, 08:05 PM
And I totally agree with the last video I posted here. Apple is a very good recipe creator: they use the ingredients (that some one else invented) and mix them together to make very nice recipes...really nice products. I have nothing against apple but this attitude is really stupid.

CG Addict
09-01-2012, 09:59 PM
Keep in mind that no one on the jury owned an iPhone and only a few actually owned an iPad. Heck, the jury foreman said he's never owned any Apple product as he's a PC user and his wife owns a Samsung phone. Pretty obvious to most of us that Samsung did indeed rip off not only visual cues but more importantly, actual usage. And that's why a jury of non-Apple product users were able to quickly come up with their verdict.

Many have said on this thread that these patents are silly and Apple going after Samsung was silly, however, if these silly little visual and usage cues are so trivial, why did it take one company (Apple) to figure it all out. Practically every other mobile company has copied Apple in one way or another.

The only thing they (Samsung and others) really do well is sit around and wait for Apple to innovate the next great device. Alot of Apple haters say this ruling will halt innovation and consumers will be the losers. Not true, Apple will continue to push the boundary. They welcome all other companies to innovate on their own dime.

CG Addict
09-01-2012, 10:03 PM
Jury Forman interview link:

http://www.droid-life.com/2012/08/28/video-jury-foreman-in-apple-vs-samsung-opens-up-about-reaching-verdict/

Lightwolf
09-01-2012, 10:37 PM
Many have said on this thread that these patents are silly and Apple going after Samsung was silly, however, if these silly little visual and usage cues are so trivial, why did it take one company (Apple) to figure it all out. Practically every other mobile company has copied Apple in one way or another.
If you listen to the video you'll also find out that they ignored prior art for some weird reason.

And yes, software patents are silly indeed (I wonder why none of the hardware patents by Samsung were acknowledged...). You'll also find that Apple didn't actually figure it all out either - they only did if you ignore the prior art. And that goes back to one of the main problems...

Cheers,
Mike

Shabazzy
09-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Apple could simple stop selling their products in Korea ... can Samsung afford to do the same in the US?

I'd like to think yes to that.

I think the global market would more than make up for any losses served by the American market. I doubt very much that America really has that much of an impact on Samsung's smartphone sales when compared to their rest of world sales.

I believe American sales of their products is more of a prestige factor to help boost demand in other countries, since America has marketed itself as the 'Greatest country on Earth' quite successfully and people in other countries have been brain-washed into believing this nonsense, it would make good business sense for Samsung to use America as a marketing vehicle to sell their products to said weak minded individuals.

However, it's not like the world will cease buying Samsung products just because of Apple's win. If anything, this result and the behaviour of Apple may make some other countries think twice about letting Apple products hit their shores.

I know I would. As far as I'm concerned I'd prefer to keep Apple in America and let the rest of the world enjoy freedom of choice. Something Apple despises.

gristle
09-02-2012, 02:10 AM
If you listen to the video you'll also find out that they ignored prior art for some weird reason.

And yes, software patents are silly indeed (I wonder why none of the hardware patents by Samsung were acknowledged...). You'll also find that Apple didn't actually figure it all out either - they only did if you ignore the prior art. And that goes back to one of the main problems...

Cheers,
Mike

Ignored prior art?!?!? Wow, that's handy. A good way to lower the bar for patents.

Lightwolf
09-02-2012, 02:18 AM
Ignored prior art?!?!? Wow, that's handy. A good way to lower the bar for patents.
Quote from the video:
"…wether or not the prior really did invalidate that patent, and so with that moment that I had, I relealized that the software on the Apple side could not be placed into the processor on the prior art and vise versa and that means that they’re not interchagable, and that just that just changed everything right there."

Which is clearly... well, I'll leave the expletive to your imagination.

Cheers,
Mike

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 02:30 AM
You'll also find that Apple didn't actually figure it all out either - they only did if you ignore the prior art.

Oh I get it. Pre-iPhone: not a single mobile phone that looks or works remotely close to it. Post-iPhone: all of a sudden everybody and their grandma suddenly is flipping these new devices like flapjacks.

Same thing goes for th iPad. Word it anyway you want but until Apple got it right no one knew what to do with the so called "prior art." Somehow all these mobile manufacturers couldn't see what you implying is this obvious way of making a proper phone and tablet.

That is laughable.

Wait, wait... Apple is about to introduce the next big thing. Na, someone else will first right? Wrong.

Lightwolf
09-02-2012, 02:38 AM
Same thing goes for th iPad. Word it anyway you want but until Apple got it right no one knew what to do with the so called "prior art." Somehow all these mobile manufacturers couldn't see what you implying is this obvious way of making a proper phone and tablet.
Look at the single patents. These are not about complete devices but isolated functionality. The software patents cover nothing else ... and every patent stands in its own.

And many of those isolated functionalities have been implemented earlier - and also lack the non-obviousness.
Develop for touch screen device from complete scratch and you're likely to think of similar solutions in nine out of ten cases.

It's got nothing to do with the combination that results in a complete product. We're talking single components here.

Cheers,
Mike

meshpig
09-02-2012, 03:45 AM
... I wonder what Charles Babbage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage#Difference_engine) relatively speaking, would make of "What has Apple ever invented"?

I wouldn't be able to even use a computer if it weren't for Apple's "universal access" zoom 'innovation' which came in about the same time my eyes went bung and could no longer see my old Sony Trinitron screen. The MS version isn't even half as good for about 1/3 the price of an average iMac. Software maybe but those yankee tech cops are facile geeks :)

warmiak
09-02-2012, 08:26 AM
I'd like to think yes to that.

I believe American sales of their products is more of a prestige factor to help boost demand in other countries, since America has marketed itself as the 'Greatest country on Earth' quite successfully and people in other countries have been brain-washed into believing this nonsense, it would make good business sense for Samsung to use America as a marketing vehicle to sell their products to said weak minded individuals.



Hehehe ... I was going to write something but given your response , I won't waste my time :-)

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 12:53 PM
... you're likely to think of similar solutions in nine out of ten cases.

It's got nothing to do with the combination that results in a complete product. We're talking single components here.

Cheers,
Mike

More like one out of a thousand. Apple is the only company apparently able to figure it out first while every other company waits with baited breath.

Give credit where it's due. Before Apple created the iMac, iPod, iPhone, and iPad, consumers had nothing to choose from.

Lightwolf
09-02-2012, 12:59 PM
More like one out of a thousand. Apple is the only company apparently able to figure it out first while every other company waits with baited breath.
So, which thousand developers worked with multi-touch and didn't come up with pinch to zoom before Apple did? Or double tap to zoom (which is essentially the same as double-click to zoom from a developers PoV).

Oh, wait ... they did.

The credit is due for combining technology, not for creating the components.

Cheers,
Mike

zarti
09-02-2012, 01:02 PM
Give credit where it's due. Before Apple created the iMac, iPod, iPhone, and iPad, consumers had nothing to choose from.

.. yeah ! we were sketching with ashes on our caverns .. and waiting for Apple .

ha-haaa !

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 01:03 PM
I'd like to think yes to that.

I think the global market would more than make up for any losses served by the American market. I doubt very much that America really has that much of an impact on Samsung's smartphone sales when compared to their rest of world sales.

I believe American sales of their products is more of a prestige factor to help boost demand in other countries, since America has marketed itself as the 'Greatest country on Earth' quite successfully and people in other countries have been brain-washed into believing this nonsense, it would make good business sense for Samsung to use America as a marketing vehicle to sell their products to said weak minded individuals.

However, it's not like the world will cease buying Samsung products just because of Apple's win. If anything, this result and the behaviour of Apple may make some other countries think twice about letting Apple products hit their shores.

I know I would. As far as I'm concerned I'd prefer to keep Apple in America and let the rest of the world enjoy freedom of choice. Something Apple despises.

Don't shoot your argument in the foot, your hate for America and what it stands for is apparent but that's really got nothing to do with this thread. Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another.

Samsung has had the benefit of manufacturing actual Apple components and has been abusing that relationship all along.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 01:04 PM
.. yeah ! we were sketching with ashes on our caverns .. and waiting for Apple .

ha-haaa !

Pretty much...

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Don't be hating... thanks to Apple we all eventually get great products, it just depends on who you buy it from and how long they're able to adapt Apple innovation.

gristle
09-02-2012, 01:24 PM
... Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another.....

Everything? Are you talking historically? How about the dud that was the Newton? Do you think that product was the reason that US Robotics was so successful with the Palm range? Because they followed?

Also, to what degree do you mean a copy? The fact that my PRE Iphone Nokia also has a screen, just like an apple product. That's a tenuous link.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 01:36 PM
Everything? Are you talking historically? How about the dud that was the Newton? Do you think that product was the reason that US Robotics was so successful with the Palm range? Because they followed?

Also, to what degree do you mean a copy? The fact that my PRE Iphone Nokia also has a screen, just like an apple product. That's a tenuous link.

Pretty lame arguments gristle. The Ford model T has nothing on the Corvette Z-60.

Ok to sum up... I think this win for Apple will lead to a lot more innovation for us consumers as these copy cat companies will finally be forced to truly come up with their own wildly "insane" ideas. Once they've done it once they'll be fine.

gristle
09-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Touche CG addict, I was playing the devils advocate and reacting to your arguments. I'm pleased you noticed they were pretty lame, just as lame as stating...

"Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another."

ShadowMystic
09-02-2012, 03:58 PM
Touche CG addict, I was playing the devils advocate and reacting to your arguments. I'm pleased you noticed they were pretty lame, just as lame as stating...

"Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another."

Leave him be his fanboy is showing. Any logical person knows while Apple did a lot things really well. The first computers we had in our classrooms were the colored all in one original iMac. But they didn't invent computers nor were they the first to do a thin tablet. I think they may have been first to implement the GUI but that's a bout it. The woz was the tech genius and jobs was a marketer, but Apple has become refiners and design snobs. Now Samsung's design is pushing a little close to apple even with package and that is one reason why they lost. But this doesn't mean our current patent and copyright laws aren't to blame in part

In closing, Apple computers are for those who don't know. How to build and maintain a PC(Macs are PCs) or those who care not to bother with it. They pay a hefty premium for such. Some know some don't. But its a choice. I say take your preference and live and let live.

Lightwolf
09-02-2012, 04:00 PM
But this doesn't mean our current copyright laws aren't to blame in part.
Sorry for nitpicking, but it was a patent case, not a copyright case. ;)
And different types of patents as well.

Cheers,
Mike

ShadowMystic
09-02-2012, 04:14 PM
Sorry for nitpicking, but it was a patent case, not a copyright case. ;)
And different types of patents as well.

Cheers,
Mike

Thank you. Corrected. I'd like to reword some for clarification but with my phone its a waste of time so I'll say that I did not means that Samsung lost because a package and interface design. But On more the one occasion I groan as an adroid loving friend shows their new phone ' No, this is the Samsung something or other. Personally I like my LG built like a rock or at lease taken abuse like one.

Philbert
09-02-2012, 04:23 PM
Touche CG addict, I was playing the devils advocate and reacting to your arguments. I'm pleased you noticed they were pretty lame, just as lame as stating...

"Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another."

I must agree, that is one of the most ludicrous statements I've ever heard. If heard anywhere else I would just assume it was a joke or sarcasm.

Side note: I saw this posted earlier. According to apple it's the most amazing iphone yet.
http://main.makeuseoflimited.netdna-cdn.com/tech-fun/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/iphonebest.jpg?54b313

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 04:24 PM
@ ShadowMystic: no I'm not an Apple fanboy and I'm sure most Apple haters here arn't Fandroids. I primarially use Windows 7 and that's where stay for practically all my 3D work and love using it more so than on my Mac. I've used Macs since back in the day for all of my 2D illustration and design work.

Didn't buy an iPad until they addressed some issues with it and apps that I could actual use were available, heck I used my Motorola razor and Samsung Soltice until I could upgrade to an iPhone 3Gs for free a year ago. Won't upgrade it for at least another 8 months.

The point being missed here is that until Apple figures out the best visual and UI ways of doing something progress stalls or is non-exsistent. That said once these companies start copying Apple they do manage to build in some worthy updates. Nevertheless these add ons are always after the initial copying of an Apple product introduction.

My wife is getting a free upgrade to an iPhone 5 but I'm not paying the premium. I'll wait for my upgrade.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 04:30 PM
@ Phil: wuh? Counterpoint? Care to name one mobile or tablet company that has introduced a product that Apple hasn't already introduced first? And I'm not talking the stone age here. We're obviously talking about the current trends of the last ten or so years.

Philbert
09-02-2012, 04:33 PM
@ Phil: wuh? Counterpoint? Care to name one mobile or tablet company that has introduced a product that Apple hasn't already introduced first?

Palm, Nokia, Compaq, HP, Archos, Acer, the list goes on and on.

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 04:41 PM
Don't shoot your argument in the foot, your hate for America and what it stands for is apparent but that's really got nothing to do with this thread.

Actually, I don't have any hate for America or Americans. I just, as you call it 'call it like it is'. Americans DO say America is the greatest country in the Earth, and yes, this IS nonsense. America portrays itself to the world as the country where the pinnacle of human achievements are attained, but conveniently hides it's multitude of social, economic, technological and moral failings and failures. This Wizard of Oz approach is there for all to see, unfortunately, not everyone can or is willing to and anyone who does and speaks out about it, is given some unwarranted negative labelling.

Steve Jobs espoused the exact same type of brain washing nonsense in marketing his products. Have you ever heard of the 'Jobs Reality Distortion Field?' You must have done, because anyone on this thread can see you've been totally sucked into it.

Case in point:
The Facade

Don't be hating... thanks to Apple we all eventually get great products, it just depends on who you buy it from and how long they're able to adapt Apple innovation.

The Reality
The price you pay for this so called innovation (which by the way was never innovation, it was just a knack of being able to take other people's ideas, put it in a pretty package, give it a lot of exposure and then call it your own) was the restriction of the users ability to use the product they paid for and thereby own in a fashion to which said owner of the product wants to. Apple don't tell you that, do they? No. They just say it's for your own good. Get used to it.

If this is what you call 'getting a great product' then you and I have a very different idea of what constitutes a great product.

In my opinion, this type of attitude is best left at home. It's got nothing to do with hate, just a different sense of cultural values.


Let's call it like it is; without Apple there isn't another company out there that would have even remotely anything worth buying. Everything else is merely a copy of an Apple product to one degree or another.

Samsung has had the benefit of manufacturing actual Apple components and has been abusing that relationship all along.

Ok. Let's call it like it is. You really need to do your homework. Since your perception of reality is truly distorted.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 04:41 PM
@ Phil: Wrong answer.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 04:54 PM
@ Shabazzy: seems your a bit envious of us over across the pond and I can understand why. More to the point of the thread though, read my earlier post response to ShadowMystic. I spell out my equipment and general usage there.

What it keeps coming back to simply is that Apple is a few steps ahead of the curve and every one is fighting to either keep up, innovate on their own or as Samsung poorly illustrated, find a way to copy without getting caught.

By the way most of us here in the States carrying no view that we're more special than anyone else. As you implied we've got plenty of problems here to deal with.

MentalFish
09-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Apple isn't the great inventor of all things digital, but they are a great polisher of form and function. If anyone claims Apple products are the same as any other cheap product, just with a hefty price tag and pretty wrapping, it's as uninformed as any Apple-fanboy statement would be.

I find it rather tragi-comical when Apple-hating friends is trying to show off the brilliance of their Android devices and it just keeps on failing, falling flat on its face, time and time again (streaming to TV or whatever it might be). Every time I am in an electro-store of sorts, testing out Android devices, trying to like them, wanting to like the Galaxy Note for its pen feature (Photoshop & 3D-Coat please!), I just can't get over the lack of quality in both physical and software aspects of the devices.

Apple has an army of lawyers, and the legal battles are annoying. The whole concept of patenting basic GUI concepts is rather bonkers. The only thing we can do is either change the system and/or vote with the wallet. Perhaps less people will buy Apple products now that they are bullying Samsung. Nobody likes a bully.

Then again, compare it to a situation closer to home. Say you make your own animated series of sorts, it has an overall concept, look and feel. Based on your skills and time spent in combination with inspiration from other sources and concepts, you end up with a success. Then the next guy on the forums here use your design/concept/world as a blueprint to make in essence the same show. They would just call it something different, create the characters slightly differently and cash in big by producing it at a lower cost, and selling it for cheaper. They are not selling a digital copy of your final render, but their own, manually "traced" version. Would you be ok with it?

Personally I am as annoyed with the nitpickery of patent lawsuits as I am dismissive of "Us too!" products, trying to imitate Apple. Instead of stealing the concept of simplicity and quality assurance, they copy the literal functionality and appearance, yet not following through on quality. I am keeping an interested eye on the Windows ecosystem with Windows 8 (computer/tablet/phone), and if doesn't come across as a cheap PlastiBox™ solution (both in terms of hardware and software), then I might be a customer. So far, all "hands on" uses of Android has put me off and Windows 7 is ok-ish. I am currently using Windows XP (via Paralells) for VisualStudio, gots to luvs VisualStudio when doodling in Unity...

The difference between copying and stealing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CtC_qbQ51U

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Then again, compare it to a situation closer to home. Say you make your own animated series of sorts, it has an overall concept, look and feel. Based on your skills and time spent in combination with inspiration from other sources and concepts, you end up with a success. Then the next guy on the forums here use your design/concept/world as a blueprint to make in essence the same show. They would just call it something different, create the characters slightly differently and cash in big by producing it at a lower cost, and selling it for cheaper. They are not selling a digital copy of your final render, but their own, manually "traced" version. Would you be ok with it?

I suppose from my perspective, I'd be ok with it if I had already recouped my investment and then some.

I figure that, after that had been reached, if you want to compete with me by copying my format and producing something similar to mine, then I feel it would be up to me to show why my show was superior to theirs.

The competition alone would be enough reason for me to push myself to the limits to achieve the best product I can possibly produce. This is not a bad thing.

I'd want the product to decide but I'd also want the viewers to have the option of choice and the freedom to do it.

However, it would be pretty darned rich of me to kick up a fuss of plagiarism if my 'inspiration from other sources and concepts' were really direct rip offs.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 06:53 PM
@ Shabazzy: it sounds as though from your last post that you've got no idea of the marketplace and how it works. I'd bet there's no one creative on this site or any other site that would share your viewpoint.

It's becoming more clear as to why you see things your way. This business of "share and share alike as long as you make it better" is bad business. Don't get me wrong with the sharing part, I'm all for sharing and helping others. I'm referring to intellectual work that was produced with blood, sweat and tears and some money.

warmiak
09-02-2012, 07:06 PM
The price you pay for this so called innovation (which by the way was never innovation, it was just a knack of being able to take other people's ideas, put it in a pretty package, give it a lot of exposure and then call it your own) was the restriction of the users ability to use the product they paid for and thereby own in a fashion to which said owner of the product wants to. Apple don't tell you that, do they? No. They just say it's for your own good. Get used to it.

If this is what you call 'getting a great product' then you and I have a very different idea of what constitutes a great product.

In my opinion, this type of attitude is best left at home. It's got nothing to do with hate, just a different sense of cultural values.



Ok. Let's call it like it is. You really need to do your homework. Since your perception of reality is truly distorted.

Yeah,yeah ... I got news for you , people don't give a crap about the so called "walled garden", they go out and buy Apple phones and tablets - tens of millions of them - different sense of cultural values I guess.

MentalFish
09-02-2012, 07:08 PM
@ Shabazzy: it sounds as though from your last post that you've got no idea of the marketplace and how it works. I'd bet there's no one creative on this site or any other site that would share your viewpoint.

It's becoming more clear as to why you see things your way.

Well, a cheap knockoff would not necessarily steal customers from the original, as the customers of a higher quality product, wouldn't consider buying any lookalike, just because it is cheaper. Thats one of the wonderful things about a free market, you can choose to ignore the crap out there and go for quality.

Often the idea/basic concept does not have value in itself, but may become valuable on how that idea/concept has been executed / brought to life. Having an idea for a sci-fi space opera does not necessarily result in movie like The Empire Strikes Back, it might just as well end up as the Phantom Menace :D

Personally I would be peeved off if someone traced my work and claiming it to be their own, as it just comes across as douchebaggery. Even worse, if someone thinks a crappy iOS game is mine, based on cloned graphics and similar title, then that would be even worse than someone making money from copying a design I spent 500 hours on.

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Yeah,yeah ... I got news for you , people don't give a crap about the so called "walled garden", they go out and buy Apple phones and tablets - tens of millions of them - different sense of cultural values I guess.

A lot of people don't give a crap about smoking cigarettes. It doesn't mean they're particularly smart.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 07:16 PM
@ Mentalfish: matters not what the customers view is, what matters from a legal standpoint is whether or not the creative feels and also has material proof of an infringement. That's what puts it in to court room.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 07:17 PM
@ Shabazzy: what are you smoking? Your comments are bizarre at times.

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 07:20 PM
@ Shabazzy: what are you smoking? Your comments are bizarre at times.

You live in a reality distortion field, what did you expect?

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 07:22 PM
:question:

warmiak
09-02-2012, 07:58 PM
A lot of people don't give a crap about smoking cigarettes. It doesn't mean they're particularly smart.

You just can't accept that some people don't value the same things you do and it has nothing to do with being smart or otherwise.

But hey, when you start talking about values and stuff in a discussion about mobile phones you are entering bizarre territory ( right up there with RMS and other free software fundation fanatics ...and imho life is too short for that sort of nonsense )

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 08:26 PM
You just can't accept that some people don't value the same things you do and it has nothing to do with being smart or otherwise.

I can accept that people have differing values to me and I also value that they have the right and freedom to choose which values to uphold and live by. I am happy to respect their opinions and choices even though I may not agree with them, so long as they are happy to reciprocate. Because ultimately, that's what this whole thread is about. Opinions, and having the freedom to express them civilly.

You may not agree with my opinions, but I welcome that, because it means we get to engage in meaningful discussion. I learn a bit about you and you learn a bit about me. This is not necessarily a bad thing (depending on your ultimate objectives) and for me at least, it allows me to expand my perception of things. And I thank everyone on this forum for that. I just hope I'm able to deliver the same to others.

At least in some small measure.

I don't expect anyone to agree with anything I say. I just hope that the things I say makes some semblance of sense. And that the logic and purpose of my statements are clear.


But hey, when you start talking about values and stuff in a discussion about mobile phones you are entering bizarre territory ( right up there with RMS and other free software fundation fanatics ...and imho life is too short for that sort of nonsense )

Fair enough. It's a point of view.

CG Addict
09-02-2012, 08:37 PM
@ Shabazzy: agreed. No ill will intended just a point of view.

Shabazzy
09-02-2012, 08:39 PM
@ Shabazzy: agreed. No ill will intended just a point of view.

Thanks mate.

No ill will taken and no ill will from me to you either. :thumbsup:

raymondtrace
09-04-2012, 08:25 AM
I wonder if someone else's patent kept Apple from allowing this resize from more than just the bottom right corner. It is a silly nuisance for Mac users. Every other OS for the past decade or so allowed resizing windows from any side/corner.
Uh, Lion and Mountain Lion allow dragging from anywhere. Fact-checking not big on this forum is it?

Uh, Lion and Mountain Lion have not been around "for the past decade". Literacy is not big on this forum is it? :)

Did Apple finally allow resizing from all sides after someone else's patent on the idea expired? Was Apple respecting another patent or were they just reluctant to conform to an intuitive UI for 20 years?

This is what crazy patent law does to us. Each gadget is going to have its own unique and disorienting behavior. Nothing is going to be intuitive anymore if designers/developers are forced to think so wildly out of the norm.

Can something that is intuitive really be patented? Apple thinks that their products are "intuitive" but worthy of exclusive patent because they are so "different". That's silly. Intuitive != different.

https://www.google.com/search?q=intuitive+site%3Awww.apple.com

zarti
09-08-2012, 06:44 PM
this round , apple can hardly win against this ;

http://www.bgr.com/2012/09/05/iphone-5-design-copied-patented-goophone-i5/

:D



.cheers

zarti
09-11-2012, 06:23 AM
here comes your lovely idiotic App!e again :

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/09/10/apple-reportedly-suing-polish-online-supermarket-trademarking-name-a-pl/

--

i bet my Dongle that ;

the next one being sued by them is going to be the Vatican .
they should remove apple from the Bible 's Genesis and replace it with another fruit .

.. Adam with a pear maybe . or a banana ?


.cheers

Snosrap
09-12-2012, 08:23 PM
i bet my Dongle that ;

the next one being sued by them is going to be the Vatican .
they should remove apple from the Bible 's Genesis and replace it with another fruit .

.. Adam with a pear maybe . or a banana ?


.cheers

No kidding. :D

ken_g9
09-14-2012, 04:16 AM
here comes your lovely idiotic App!e again :

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/09/10/apple-reportedly-suing-polish-online-supermarket-trademarking-name-a-pl/

.cheers

Wow. That is messed up. Apple is suing an online supermarket?

kopperdrake
09-15-2012, 02:51 AM
Agh! Are they going to start suing every company using a lowercase 'i' in front of their product? Come on, an apple logo? How many apple logos are out there?

gerry_g
09-15-2012, 05:13 AM
Given that Apples company name is widely believed to have been a ripoff of the Beatles record label of the same name and a hefty cash settlement to the remaining Beatles seem to have proved as much, and the fact the the companies first product the "Macintosh' was shall we say inspired by a range of upmarket hi-fi with the same name again I think this involved litigation and a large cash settlement, so given all this you'd have thought that a company that believes so passionately in the principal borrowing anything it takes a fancy to would be equally generous about sharing.

MarcusM
09-15-2012, 08:28 AM
I just read that Apple want invalidity of the trademark polish web site - delicatessen with delivery to home (fresh24.pl). Soon even apples dissapear from shops because apple producers will don't have right to cultivation.

And... when i saw this, no comment :p :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4&feature=player_embedded