PDA

View Full Version : Take my word for it...



meshpig
08-18-2012, 04:03 AM
Oops! (http://www.smh.com.au/world/take-my-word-i-did-pay-tax--romney-20120817-24du7.html)Dunno, somewhat reminiscent of Nero fiddling (the books) whilst Rome burned?

SplineGod
08-18-2012, 06:59 AM
God bless the wealthy...Ive earned a good living over the years producing 3d gfx for wealthy people. I hope to someday be wealthy and return the favor to other 3d artists. I dont understand how on one hand we talk about how, through hard work and persistance we can do well and make money but then somehow demean those who were able to do what we all want.
Its easy to make accusations without a shred of proof to back it up. If Mitt Romney took advantage of so called tax loopholes these are loopholes created by the government in the first place. These are loopholes that every single business in america can take advantage of and they do. Most of the politicians on both sides take advantage of such loopholes. When I was working in Hollywood tax time was a big rush to find a good accountant who could maximize deductions. Every artist I worked with either knew of a great accountant or asked to find one. I used one who saved me thousands of dollars thru writeoffs and loopholes. In his office were signed/autographed pictures by many high end directors, producers, vfx supervisors etc thanking him for the large sums of money he saved them all at tax time... and most of them were democrats. When it comes to money all sides are equal.

djwaterman
08-18-2012, 10:43 AM
"I am not evading tax in any way, shape or form. Now of course I am minimizing my tax and if anybody in this country doesn't minimize their tax they want their heads read because as a government I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be donating extra."

The late Kerry Packer when hauled up in front of a government inquiry, shutting them up and making them blush.

Tony R
08-18-2012, 11:14 AM
Yeah, those "horrible" rich folks that spend tons of money into the economy, pay the top 70% of all taxes and create those jobs. They should all be shot. Imagine being rewarded for your success. What an insane idea! They should share it and have their wealth distributed to the poor unfortunate losers who did nothing in their life to be successful. I bet our founding fathers are all rolling in their graves when they see what this administration is doing to our country.

Back to on topic.... is SE ever gonna be 64 bit?

meshpig
08-18-2012, 10:34 PM
"I am not evading tax in any way, shape or form. Now of course I am minimizing my tax and if anybody in this country doesn't minimize their tax they want their heads read because as a government I can tell you you're not spending it that well that we should be donating extra."

The late Kerry Packer when hauled up in front of a government inquiry, shutting them up and making them blush.

Rich coming from the man who blew $20 mil on one Roulette table...:)

Sensei
08-18-2012, 10:41 PM
Wow.

I wish to have so little taxes... 13%?!

If somebody in PL earns more than 950 usd per year or so, he has to pay 18%,
if exceeding 26000 usd per year or so, he has to pay 32%..

And these are after decreasing taxes in couple last years. They used to be 40% or more.

Titus
08-18-2012, 11:19 PM
13%? here the minimum is 17%. Of course there's a ton of people who don't pay a penny.

meshpig
08-19-2012, 12:06 AM
God bless the wealthy...Ive earned a good living over the years producing 3d gfx for wealthy people. I hope to someday be wealthy and return the favor to other 3d artists. I dont understand how on one hand we talk about how, through hard work and persistance we can do well and make money but then somehow demean those who were able to do what we all want.
Its easy to make accusations without a shred of proof to back it up. If Mitt Romney took advantage of so called tax loopholes these are loopholes created by the government in the first place. These are loopholes that every single business in america can take advantage of and they do. Most of the politicians on both sides take advantage of such loopholes. When I was working in Hollywood tax time was a big rush to find a good accountant who could maximize deductions. Every artist I worked with either knew of a great accountant or asked to find one. I used one who saved me thousands of dollars thru writeoffs and loopholes. In his office were signed/autographed pictures by many high end directors, producers, vfx supervisors etc thanking him for the large sums of money he saved them all at tax time... and most of them were democrats. When it comes to money all sides are equal.

I have a good accountant too and am well aware of what they can do but the issue is more about Mitt the President not Mitt the billionaire. On the other hand everyone knows you don't become a billionaire simply by hard work and persitence or is that the aspect of the US I can't quite grasp?

Mitt went to Harvard and took over his father's business. I know several people with an MBA from Harvard and who took over their father's business who aren't billionaires.

Government isn't a business and there's nothing to say turning it into one does anything more than over determine a managerial/consultant bureaucracy. Fire all the civil servants and hire them back as contractors at twice the price kinda thing. Give the middle class some puny tax break to keep them happy so they can spend the extra on ever more expensive "market driven" services.

Cheers!

jeric_synergy
08-19-2012, 12:46 AM
Mitt had a hand in crafting those tax policies that give him huge advantages. It takes a lot of gall to tell others to sacrifice, when he's got the people writing the laws on his payroll. Gall and brass-plated hypocrisy.

And maybe some haven't got the memo, but the 1% have been busy exporting jobs, not 'creating' them.

But hey, you guys want to buy their propaganda that has increased their wealth enormously disproportionately while shifting the tax burden down the wealth scale, fine, believe the myth that y'all have just has much chance at hitting it rich as they do, WHILE they reduce social mobility to Golden Age levels. Great idea.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 12:47 AM
God bless the wealthy...Ive earned a good living over the years producing 3d gfx for wealthy people. I hope to someday be wealthy and return the favor to other 3d artists. I dont understand how on one hand we talk about how, through hard work and persistance we can do well and make money but then somehow demean those who were able to do what we all want.
Its easy to make accusations without a shred of proof to back it up. If Mitt Romney took advantage of so called tax loopholes these are loopholes created by the government in the first place. These are loopholes that every single business in america can take advantage of and they do. Most of the politicians on both sides take advantage of such loopholes. When I was working in Hollywood tax time was a big rush to find a good accountant who could maximize deductions. Every artist I worked with either knew of a great accountant or asked to find one. I used one who saved me thousands of dollars thru writeoffs and loopholes. In his office were signed/autographed pictures by many high end directors, producers, vfx supervisors etc thanking him for the large sums of money he saved them all at tax time... and most of them were democrats. When it comes to money all sides are equal.

Yeah... they take advantage of the loopholes created by politicians BOUGHT by the wealthy to make themselves richer while the rest of us pay FAR more because we don't have the clout on Capital Hill to make taxes better for us. This is NOT about envy of the rich - it is about being on a FAIR playing field. People want all of the things that government can bring, but when it comes to paying for them they complain. We have a military that cost more than ALL of the rest of the worlds military spending combined - and they want to raise it even higher. Huh?

Before everyone here starts complaining about this crap they should know HOW these people USE the system when people like us are unable. There's ALLOT more to what's going on than meets the eye - you have to understand how things work and HOW they game the system. There are MANY millionaires who believe just as the democrats do that THEY are getting away with FAR too much and the system needs to be changed. And if you don't believe that, you've been brainwashed to think that it's okay to screw over your poor neighbor as you get richer and richer. And a President Romney will most definitely NOT help the little people like us. If you think he will... well, you haven't been following politics.

There was a time in this country when things were far more fair - when CEO's would only make 30 times what their average employee would make - now it's several hundred times more. And of course I could go on and on but I will say - the system is rigged and it's the rich who are rigging it. Period.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 12:53 AM
Yeah, those "horrible" rich folks that spend tons of money into the economy, pay the top 70% of all taxes and create those jobs.

Huh? Create all those jobs? ROFLMFAO.

It's the Middle class that creates the jobs. We buy the goods and services that business owners take advantage of. We don't buy those good and services, they lay people off. We buy those goods and services, they hire more workers to service us. It's really plain and simple. Businesses are sitting on MORE than two trillion dollars and "where are the jobs?" They could EASILY fix the jobless rate within a month or two by hiring lots of people with all of that cash they're sitting on. Why don't they? Because the job creators - the Middle class - aren't buying enough of THEIR good and services to make then WANT to hire more.

This has been explained time and again, but if you watch Fox "News," you would never know.

Verlon
08-19-2012, 02:17 AM
I originally had a LOT to say about this. Let me try a brief version.

There is plenty of blame to go around for not fixing taxes. Both parties have had the house, the senate, and the presidency simultaneously during the last 12 years and neither solved all our problems.

Congress has a 10% approval rate and something over 80% re-election rate. There is a similar story for the senate. If you want to change the government, quit sending the same people to Washington. Demand more from your representatives. Note that you may have to vote for someone other than your traditional party to make this happen.

When was the last time you voted for someone you liked as opposed to someone you disliked less?

On the bright side, if we keep replacing our politicians, it might become too expensive for the rich to keep bribing them and too difficult to do so and not get caught.

What digitalsorcery said about job creators. Would anyone be doing "VFX work for wealthy people" if middle class people weren't buying lots and lots of movie tickets?

And yes, this is the brief version.

djwaterman
08-19-2012, 03:32 AM
The history of art is and always has been about making pretty things for rich people, the church, kings, queens, dukes, dictators and the aristocracy in general. That's never going to change. People who can shell out the price of a movie ticket instead of a meal are by some measure rich, rich enough to spend money on entertainment. Middle class people are rich, middle class does not mean poor, if you are poor you are not middle class, and if middle class people are buying lots and lots of movie tickets they are not slumming.

Verlon
08-19-2012, 03:46 AM
I went to movies when I was poor (I did it less often, but I still did go sometimes). If you think shelling out $6 today for a matinee ticket is rich, then what does that say about billionares wanting tax breaks?

The point of how middle class people make movies happen isn't that one person buys $1.7 billion in Avengers tickets, but that tens of millions of people buy 1-4 tickets. Do you think Disney would have made Avengers as a vanity project? If Iron Man had flopped, would we have seen Avengers? If Star Wars had just broken even, how do you like the odds of ever getting Empire Strikes Back? VFX movies are made to sell to the masses for a profit.

Tony R
08-19-2012, 09:53 AM
That is correct. Let's face it.... Disney isnt making Mickey Mouse these days because they want to see all of those smiling faces on little children's faces. They do it for MONEY. Eveil word! Money! Face it.... everything out there is done for money for the most part. And in this great country, we are rewarded by our hard work. So, Disney makes a movie, they make millions of dollars, people spend $6-10. Everyone is happy. Disney has no obligation to share one penny of profits with anyone. Of couise, if they want to donate to charities, they can and probably will. But, no one has the right to take one cent from anyone who earned their money. Screw the people wo do not have money. That is mostly because of their poor choices or lack of talent, skills or education. I feel bad for people who have money but face it, we cannot save the world by handing out money., That is what our govt does and guarantee half of the recipients are milking the system. ANyway, the surest way to bring this country down is to take more money away from the rich so that they can move it to another country and pull it all out of our economy. Real smart move. Even if they pay less %-wise, the top 5% of the rich pay 71% of all the taxes. That means the other 95% have to only kick in 30%. Thats nothing. Money rules this country and always has. Piss off the wealthy and they arent hiring. And these small business owners are considered "wealthy" by the current administration, which is why they are all standing around waiting to see what this catastrophe called Obamacare is going to do. They are all afraid of hiring. Some are actually laying off a few people just so they can go under the 50 employee count that requires them to participate. That is why no one is hiring and there has been over 8% unemployment for 4 years.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Screw the people wo do not have money. That is mostly because of their poor choices or lack of talent, skills or education.
And what do you get when ONE party wants to eliminate the Dept. of Education? When one party wants to cut and cut and cut public education and provide vouchers for schools that take public money OUT of public education even more? What is happening? Education is then allowed ONLY for the richer in our society and the poor can't get that good, quality education. And THAT'S the way the rich 1% want it - stupid people who vote for who they want into office.

The people you vote for are responsible for this - and it is primarily the Republican party. THEY are the ones who want to help the rich get richer - by providing even MORE tax cuts for them and allowing the Middle class to take the burden. Were it not for government, we wouldn't have the roads and bridges and SCHOOLS that provide for the masses. The Repubs want to eliminate these things and return to a more "states rights" agenda. We already tried that in the first American Constitution and they discovered something miraculous - it didn't work. You NEED a strong Federal government - something that the Repubs want to get rid of.

This isn't conjecture, it's fact. When you finally learn HOW the rich get richer - and no, it's definitely NOT just from hard work - you may change your tune. Society works when ALL work together - not when you're just "out for yourself." Anarchy doesn't work. Community does. When the rich buy the politicians - both Dems & Repubs - to make the laws that benefit them the most, then it's time for "the little people" to wake up and vote.

Problem is... ONE billionaire can buy enough advertising time to brainwash the masses because contrary to popular belief... most people are not very smart and are EASILY led. You need time to sort through the issues and the lies/exaggerations coming from both sides to discover the truth. And the truth is - if we keep going down this path to the rich getting richer off of OUR backs - this country will SOON become a plutocracy. We will be a country where ALL decisions are made by a wealthy FEW.

alexos
08-19-2012, 03:43 PM
Screw the people wo do not have money. That is mostly because of their poor choices or lack of talent, skills or education.

I've read some unpleasant stuff on the board over the years, but this?

ADP.

Verlon
08-19-2012, 05:11 PM
Tony, you said you guaranty that half the people are milking the system. I would like to cash in on that. What would I get?

Yes, poor people who need the system are trying to get as much as they can (just like rich people try to get as much as they can, only the poor people actually need it). There are some number of crooks scamming the system (prosecute them please). That doesn't mean the program fails.

People rob banks (and credit unions). Where do you deposit your checks?

There are rich crooks, too (Bernie Madoff, board at Enron, etc). Did they get there by making "good choices?"

Did hard work pay off for Robert Kearns (inventor of intermittent wipers)? Did any of the automakers willingly pay up? No, in fact, they came out and said their strategy was to make the case too expensive for Kearns to continue. I guess Kearns made the 'bad choice' of being born in the middle class. Do you think that is the ONLY case where the wealthy have outspent the less fortunate to rewrite history and rearrange justice?

kopperdrake
08-19-2012, 05:47 PM
I've read some unpleasant stuff on the board over the years, but this?

ADP.

Seriously agree Alexis - very narrow-minded. Thread closure anyone?

Tony R
08-19-2012, 06:09 PM
Government hasnt done crap for anyone. That comment that Obama made about "you didnt do that" was the most idiotic statement that he ever made (and there are tons of them). Anyone who is successful owes NOTHING to government. Developers and businesses build roads. Government uses OUR tax money to build everything. We are government, arent we? Therefore, we built the roads, Man, you Obama lovers are brainwashed. This country has never been more off course than it is now with this undocumented worker in office.

And I know plenty of filthy rich millionairs, though I am not one. They all got there by taking chances and spending money. One is a millionaire from owne 2 laundromats. I guess he would be a homeless guy if the government didnt put the sewer system in, huh? What a laugh! He works harder than anyone. He is the owner and yet he has to go to his places at all hours when things go wrong,fill in when workers bang out at the last second, etc. I do know how it works. WOrk hard, invest, take chances and there you are. Of course there are those who get it handed to them or are just lucky, but none of that is my business.

And people are milking the system. You can thank the attorneys out there for promoting disability and all that. I know at least 10 people who claim to be mentally disabled. They were all normal as hell a few years back. I also work in the largest hospital in the area and all I see all day long are illegals who have no idea and all of them being handed Medicaide forms. I say they should be turned away and let them die in the street. Why are we paying for them? See what happens if you go to the ER in their country. They will throw you out. That is the big fraud. Turn these leeches of society away and that will solve the health care business. Not that crap obama is shoving down everyone's throat that noone wants. NOt even his own party. He had to use his Chicago strongar threats to get it passed. When we heard the news that Obamacare passed the supreme court, I saw nurses and social workers in my hospital in tears all saying "thats it. This is the beginning of SOcialized medicine". He is a marxist and needs to be thrown out. And dont be fooled by him. He saved and bailed out all of his wall street buddies He is richer than any of you will ever be. He is laughing at everyone and is just an undocumented worker like the ones he is trying to protect.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 06:14 PM
Okay, it IS time to close this thread.

Apparently some here are more brainwashed than others. :foreheads

And since this is a politically-charged thread - it's gone way past the rules and serious conversation with intelligence is obviously NOT in the cards.

Ernest
08-19-2012, 06:21 PM
See what happens if you go to the ER in their country. They will throw you out. That is the big fraud.

I'd just like to point out that I have never visited any country south of the US border where they would throw you out of the ER for being a foreigner.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 06:37 PM
Government hasnt done crap for anyone. That comment that Obama made about "you didnt do that" was the most idiotic statement that he ever made (and there are tons of them). Anyone who is successful owes NOTHING to government. Developers and businesses build roads. Government uses OUR tax money to build everything. We are government, arent we? Therefore, we built the roads, Man, you Obama lovers are brainwashed. This country has never been more off course than it is now with this undocumented worker in office.
I thought about this for moment, and I've come to the conclusion that you must not be very well educated. Yes, we ARE the government - and AS the government we acted collectively to build roads, bridges, the internet and MANY other things. Without that GOVERNMENT - where we ALL pitched in and acted COLLECTIVELY - you would NOT have been able build a business. And by the way - Obama didn't say that originally - it was Elizabeth Warren.

How are you going to get your goods to others? Oh yes, roads. Government built BY the people. How are you going to email others in your business? Oh yes, it was the government who created the internet - the government we ALL put our money into - that allowed us to use it for business. If you seriously think for one minute that all of these things could have been done without the government, you are smoking something allot more powerful than crack. Private business would not or could not build an electric grid to power the entire country without subsidies FROM the government. But I'm guessing you can't understand that.

And ONLY the lunatic right fringe still continue that swill about birth certificates. Fortunately respectable Republicans dismiss birthers like this. So sad that there are still people like this.


And I know plenty of filthy rich millionairs, though I am not one. They all got there by taking chances and spending money. One is a millionaire from owne 2 laundromats. I guess he would be a homeless guy if the government didnt put the sewer system in, huh? What a laugh! He works harder than anyone. He is the owner and yet he has to go to his places at all hours when things go wrong,fill in when workers bang out at the last second, etc. I do know how it works. WOrk hard, invest, take chances and there you are. Of course there are those who get it handed to them or are just lucky, but none of that is my business.
You really live in a fantasy world don't you? You can break things down into little parts and THINK you know what you're talking about. How are that guys customers going to get to his laundromat without roads? And just think about everything else he uses to get his business working. To simply dismiss sewer as nonessential in cities or suburbs is the height of idiocy. It shows seriously that you really do not know anything about economics OR are just stating things to be blatantly obtuse.


And people are milking the system. You can thank the attorneys out there for promoting disability and all that. I know at least 10 people who claim to be mentally disabled. They were all normal as hell a few years back. I also work in the largest hospital in the area and all I see all day long are illegals who have no idea and all of them being handed Medicaide forms. I say they should be turned away and let them die in the street. Why are we paying for them? See what happens if you go to the ER in their country. They will throw you out. That is the big fraud. Turn these leeches of society away and that will solve the health care business. Not that crap obama is shoving down everyone's throat that noone wants. NOt even his own party. He had to use his Chicago strongar threats to get it passed. When we heard the news that Obamacare passed the supreme court, I saw nurses and social workers in my hospital in tears all saying "thats it. This is the beginning of SOcialized medicine". He is a marxist and needs to be thrown out. And dont be fooled by him. He saved and bailed out all of his wall street buddies He is richer than any of you will ever be. He is laughing at everyone and is just an undocumented worker like the ones he is trying to protect.

I love your generalizations. You can do that with anything and everything. If it wasn't for the fact that it would screw over the vast majority who actually CARE about their fellow humans, I would wish that you get the type of government that you are asking for. And then one day when you're making no minimum wage - because that law was repealed by the wealthy - you can try to get some rice for dinner and maybe a small piece of fish. Because the kind of government that you are advocating for is "everyone out for himself." And that is a sad country indeed. It's certainly not the United States that so many in the world want to immigrate to. The American Dream will be over. RIP.

Titus
08-19-2012, 06:39 PM
Why are we paying for them? See what happens if you go to the ER in their country. They will throw you out.

Wow, your vision of the world is... tiny.

Sensei
08-19-2012, 07:08 PM
If money is given for nothing, people learn and adopt to not doing anything. Doing nothing is becoming their full time job.. ;)

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 07:23 PM
If money is given for nothing, people learn and adopt to not doing anything. Doing nothing is becoming their full time job.. ;)

So in what country does this happen?

Dexter2999
08-19-2012, 07:42 PM
So in what country does this happen?

How would you describe agricultural subsidies? Paid NOT to grow things?

m.d.
08-19-2012, 07:47 PM
sorry guys....
dont think we really need politics here...insults are already starting to fly

No insult intended....but these things seem to get settled in a process called democracy

Ernest
08-19-2012, 07:50 PM
How would you describe agricultural subsidies? Paid NOT to grow things?

...and yet, things get grown. Lots of things get grown?
Doesn't quite match the picture of everyone doing nothing full time.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 08:06 PM
How would you describe agricultural subsidies? Paid NOT to grow things?

If you're talking about the US, those subsidies were removed in 1996. Previously they were used to control the market to make sure that no commodity was overgrown that would deflate the market price to extremes. As much as I may not like many subsidies, farming needs it since it is subject to the weather AND the country NEEDS farmers to grow food.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 08:09 PM
No insult intended....but these things seem to get settled in a process called democracy

Not easy when Democracy is being bought by the wealthy. When you plaster the airwaves with blatant lies, most people don't have the time or inclination to discover the truth. With the floodgates opened with the Citizen United Supreme Court ruling, corporations can now spend BILLIONS to influence people. With this kind of power, you can get anyone to buy their own noose and feel great about it.

Dexter2999
08-19-2012, 11:14 PM
If you're talking about the US, those subsidies were removed in 1996. Previously they were used to control the market to make sure that no commodity was overgrown that would deflate the market price to extremes. As much as I may not like many subsidies, farming needs it since it is subject to the weather AND the country NEEDS farmers to grow food.

Not trying start a flame war here, but you are mistaken.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/21/senate-passes-five-year-farm-bill-cutting-subsidies-for-some/

Progress is being made but subsidies still exist.

And I'm not anti-farmer. But I have also seen the numbers that indicate corporate owned farms vs. family owned. Also, there was an interesting chart about "farms" owned by people who lived in Manhattan and collect a subsidy to "not grow" things.

I'm not saying all subsidies are bad. But the system is "out of whack".

m.d.
08-19-2012, 11:24 PM
Not easy when Democracy is being bought by the wealthy. When you plaster the airwaves with blatant lies, most people don't have the time or inclination to discover the truth. With the floodgates opened with the Citizen United Supreme Court ruling, corporations can now spend BILLIONS to influence people. With this kind of power, you can get anyone to buy their own noose and feel great about it.

I don't disagree with you one bit.

just very muddy polarizing waters...best left discussed over a beer, but, just my opinion....
just don't want the forums dominated by US politics....

I'll shut up now...:)

JonW
08-19-2012, 11:25 PM
Whether itís a democracy (serial dictatorship), communism, socialism, monarchy or dictatorship, itís best to keep the riff-raff out, but make sure they think they can be part of the club.

Attached: I really donít see why the plebs should be entitled this lifestyle!

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 11:29 PM
Not trying start a flame war here, but you are mistaken.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/21/senate-passes-five-year-farm-bill-cutting-subsidies-for-some/

Progress is being made but subsidies still exist.

And I'm not anti-farmer. But I have also seen the numbers that indicate corporate owned farms vs. family owned. Also, there was an interesting chart about "farms" owned by people who lived in Manhattan and collect a subsidy to "not grow" things.

I'm not saying all subsidies are bad. But the system is "out of whack".

And that looks like a good Bill - I remember when it passed. But there is nothing in it that states anything about removing the item "paying Farmers NOT to plant crops." This was eliminated in the 1996 Farm Bill. Payments were made regardless of crop yields, but nothing was said about payment for NOT growing crops.

And I agree, not ALL subsidies are bad. In fact early on, oil subsidies were necessary - just like green energy subsidies are necessary now. Until the needed fledgling industry is on its feet - one like green energy that will benefit EVERYONE - subsidies may be needed.

DigitalSorcery8
08-19-2012, 11:40 PM
I don't disagree with you one bit.

just very muddy polarizing waters...best left discussed over a beer, but, just my opinion....
just don't want the forums dominated by US politics....

I'll shut up now...:)

Yeah, unfortunately this is very polarizing. And I would MUCH rather discuss it over a beer - or 6. :beerchug:

I follow politics VERY closely watching Fox and MSNBC and MANY others. It's not easy to discern what is true and what is false - but the fact is you learn FAR less watching Fox than any other news. Things like "it's snowing so obviously there's no global climate change." It's just sad how many people are getting "snowed" by people who either blatantly lie or just misrepresent the facts. And... it's frustrating.

Hopefully the thread will be locked soon. :boogiedow

Verlon
08-20-2012, 12:12 AM
Just because there are criminals out there actively getting over on a system, that does not mean the system has failed. It simply needs refinement.

In Texas, and relevant to Lightwave, we have the Texas Producers Law which allows people to not pay sales tax on items to be used making movies and music. This is essentially a tax subsidy (or at least a convenient work-around) for people in or aspiring to be in the business. I have known people who fudged the system a bit to make some big ticket purchases. That doesn't mean it is a bad idea, or that it has completely failed to lure in producers to make movies and music. It just means that the authors of said law failed to see how someone might try to misuse it.

Now apply that same logic to food stamps, unemployment, or farm subsidies. I am sure many people made money on rural electrification, and that program has been wildly successful. There is nothing wrong with that.

When Obama was quoted out of context about not building a business by yourself, he meant (as he clearly stated) that we live in a community. The business relies on that community to suceed (that is where customers and clients come from after all).

The government has done plenty for people. The government, being made up of people, has made plenty of mistakes. Believing that Obama was a better choice for president than McCain isn't brainwashing. Believing that Obama can do not wrong would be, but I don't know anyone who feels that way. Believing that Obama can do no right is also just as equally brainwashing, and I sadly know too many people who feel that way. If you allow yourself to be so rigidly defined, then you have given up thinking for yourself. If I always agree with you, you define my opinion. If I always disagree with you, I am still letting you define my opinions (like when little kids are shouting "Are not!" and "Are too!" back and forth until one of them switches to throw the other off).

I am sure there are plenty of Republicans who feel that Mitt Romney isn't the best guy in the USA to be president, but I bet that is who most of them vote for in November because they hate him less than they hate Obama.

JonW
08-20-2012, 02:20 AM
oil subsidies were necessary - just like green energy subsidies are necessary now. Until the needed fledgling industry is on its feet - one like green energy that will benefit EVERYONE - subsidies may be needed.

In Australia the last I heard is the the coal industry is getting vastly more subsidies than the pathetic amounts that the green industry gets. People who dig stuff up want to make sure things don't change. They lobby government and also buy up all the green industries to keep them in their place.

Once we get through our 2000 years of coal reserves, then they will be asking for more subsidies as the industry will be suffering even more!

danielkaiser
08-20-2012, 03:16 AM
FREE the Oompa Loompa!

DigitalSorcery8
08-20-2012, 01:29 PM
In Australia the last I heard is the the coal industry is getting vastly more subsidies than the pathetic amounts that the green industry gets. People who dig stuff up want to make sure things don't change. They lobby government and also buy up all the green industries to keep them in their place.

Once we get through our 2000 years of coal reserves, then they will be asking for more subsidies as the industry will be suffering even more!

I honestly don't know for certain if the coal industry here gets more than green energy in subsidies - but if I had to guess, I would say they do. The people who want to keep fossil fuels burning have no real understanding (apparently) of what it will take when these fuels are exhausted - not to mention the cost as they begin to SERIOUSLY rise due to more consumption from China and India AND dwindling supplies. That'e yet another reason to extricate the Congress in the US of Republicans - they are against seriously helping the green industry. In my eyes that's practically treason when you intentionally ignore a serious problem like energy. Not to mention climate change.

Subsidies are for new, fledgling industries. I don't think that oil companies - the richest companies that Earth has ever seen - require any subsidies. Neither does coal.

JonW
08-20-2012, 04:01 PM
The people who want to keep fossil fuels burning have no real understanding (apparently) of what it will take when these fuels are exhausted


We will never run out of fossil fuel, what's remaining will just keep on increasing is value!

DigitalSorcery8
08-20-2012, 04:07 PM
We will never run out of fossil fuel, what's remaining will just keep on increasing is value!

I see. So only the rich will be able to afford to drive cars? Actually it probably won't get to that since the entire world economy will crash due to the shortages and prices. Remember in the 70's what happened when OPEC screwed the US? I do. I remember the long lines and even and odd days. And THAT was when oil was plentiful. Imagine when they can't get anywhere near what we need out of the ground? :cursin:

JonW
08-20-2012, 04:21 PM
I remember the oil crises. We will probably have a larger crisis if can't stop using 10 calories of oil to have 1 calorie of food on the table!

DigitalSorcery8
08-20-2012, 05:28 PM
I remember the oil crises. We will probably have a larger crisis if can't stop using 10 calories of oil to have 1 calorie of food on the table!

:i_agree: And couple that with worldwide drought. Things are not looking up. Doesn't Australia have a number of desalination plants? And once they perfect it, invitro beef may be a great alternative to cattle. Right now it has the "yuck factor" but that will go away soon enough.

MANY things that the US should get VERY serious about once it gets its denial head out of its _ _ _. :)

JonW
08-20-2012, 06:13 PM
Doesn't Australia have a number of desalination plants?

Yes, & there is a story to that one! A few years ago if Sydney's water dropped to 30% they would start building desal. Levels got to 33% so government signed the contract to build & desal water as there was an election due in a year or so & the public didn't want it.

Literally weeks after they signed contract it rained! The dams are full & the contract says they must desal water. Ever since the desal water has been going over the spillway at $1m a week!

We are in the wrong industry!

The water industry is not about saving water. it's about selling it, & it looks like selling it at any cost!

DigitalSorcery8
08-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Okay, I've got the PERFECT solution.

Make ALL desalination plants on floating oil-rig-like platforms.

When one country needs them - rent them out to that particular country.

Make more as needed.

And THERE'S the solution! :dance:

There may be a few kinks to work out though. :)

JonW
08-20-2012, 06:45 PM
Brilliant!

Just confirming that it's going to be pumping desal water whether it's needed or NOT!

DigitalSorcery8
08-20-2012, 06:48 PM
Brilliant!

Just confirming that it's going to be pumping desal water whether it's needed or NOT!

Well... since there is ALWAYS some place in the world that is in drought...

Yup - they'll be pumping out fresh drinking water all of the time - and it will ALWAYS be needed.

kopperdrake
08-21-2012, 03:52 AM
Yes, & there is a story to that one! A few years ago if Sydney's water dropped to 30% they would start building desal. Levels got to 33% so government signed the contract to build & desal water as there was an election due in a year or so & the public didn't want it.

Literally weeks after they signed contract it rained! The dams are full & the contract says they must desal water. Ever since the desal water has been going over the spillway at $1m a week!

We are in the wrong industry!

The water industry is not about saving water. it's about selling it, & it looks like selling it at any cost!

So the real lesson here is that a commodity such as water shouldn't be in the hands of a private business that seeks to profit from its assets come what may. It strikes me as prudent to have such a resource, to be needed as and when, but to privatise these industries will always cause these issues as contracts will always need to be signed in order to ensure that any private funding will be paid back within a given timescale, to recompense the various stake and shareholders whov'e stumped up the cash.

Look to Britain's rail industry to see that in action - we now, as tax payers, have to stump up cash to regenerate our ailing rail infrastructure as the various private rail companies who came into being after the de-nationalisation in the early nineties meant that profit was poured into the pockets of private individuals rather than the infrastructure. We now have the worst rail network in Europe, and the most splintered as each company in charge of the rolling stock on their lines has to bid for the contract at regular stages.

Every shareholder expects a greater return on on their investment, which implies that any money brought into such projects from a private source will be a smaller percentage than that which needs to be paid back, meaning higher costs initially to cover running costs and the cost of the borrowing.

Some projects, including I suspect Sydney's de-salination plant, should be run as a nationalised business, with the public's money (it is, after all, they who will die of thirst without water), but by non-government lackeys - the heads of these businesses should be hard-nosed business people who will have zero tolerance for slacking on the job, and back-handers, that gave nationalised businesses their bad names in the first place.

And at the end of the day, some businesses just aren't economically viable, but they do lubricate the areas of business and commerce - just ask the Germans and French whose railways are excellent in comparison to ours. Water, I would add, falls into this category even moreso than transportation.

meshpig
08-21-2012, 04:22 AM
I honestly don't know for certain if the coal industry here gets more than green energy in subsidies - but if I had to guess, I would say they do. The people who want to keep fossil fuels burning have no real understanding (apparently) of what it will take when these fuels are exhausted - not to mention the cost as they begin to SERIOUSLY rise due to more consumption from China and India AND dwindling supplies. That'e yet another reason to extricate the Congress in the US of Republicans - they are against seriously helping the green industry. In my eyes that's practically treason when you intentionally ignore a serious problem like energy. Not to mention climate change.

Subsidies are for new, fledgling industries. I don't think that oil companies - the richest companies that Earth has ever seen - require any subsidies. Neither does coal.

The Fossil Fuel subsidy here is about $14 billion annually on average as opposed to less than $1 billion for Green Industry, as in Federal funding. Coal mostly as we have an abundance of it and not a lot of oil but about half as much again LNG. It's hard to know what these incentives are actually for but according to the SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/billions-spent-on-fossil-fuel-incentives-20110228-1bbsn.html) "More than $1.1 billion was spent on fringe benefits tax concessions for company cars."

Yes to incentives, no to a carbon tax?

The business spectator in the UK however (them being omnipotent conservatives) include things like solar hot water heater rebates ( which have been around since 1971) in their estimate of Green expenditure here and put it at $2.3 billion annually... to be able to confront their readers with an "ooh ah, this pinko green stuff is costing the taxpayer $2.3 BILLION p.a." Mmm... yep!

Here at least these squeaky clean young libs who get up there on the ( []ir soap) box and tout 1950's style anti communist rhetoric seem to forget that when the Money mob are in office all you hear about are dole cheats , petty crimes and misdemeanours and how the Nation can't possibly afford this or that sort of thing but can afford to imprison as many as needed at whatever the cost as if the global financial crisis was nothing but a simple glitch probably caused by non-compliant mortgagees anyway... :)

meshpig
08-21-2012, 04:51 AM
Some projects, including I suspect Sydney's de-salination plant, should be run as a nationalised business, with the public's money (it is, after all, they who will die of thirst without water), but by non-government lackeys - the heads of these businesses should be hard-nosed business people who will have zero tolerance for slacking on the job, and back-handers, that gave nationalised businesses their bad names in the first place.


Ha, there are several such projects in Sydney currently. The idea goes back as far as Isambard Kingdom Brunel. What seems to happen is the private side of the partnership slacks-off and plays the government for a bunch of suckers. The initial company splinters and forms a consortium more or less with itself and spends millions on litigation against the government (taxpayer) at every possible turn, which is really only trying to get the job done, as it were. It's so fast, lucrative and loose the idea of manufacturing and producing anything seems irrelevant.

meshpig
08-21-2012, 06:02 AM
... Anyone who is successful owes NOTHING to government.

Al Capone surely showed 'em...