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View Full Version : Genoma looks freakin awesome!!!



Simon-S
08-14-2012, 08:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfut_KXamKw

chris_solo
08-14-2012, 11:15 AM
wow! rock'n roll:thumbsup:

++Chris

Fsoto
08-14-2012, 12:47 PM
Wow!+2; genoma looks fantastic! Looking forward to Christmas; thanks NewTek.

biliousfrog
08-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Brilliant, my 3rd party plugin list is getting smaller and smaller. Great work.

Ryhnio
08-18-2012, 09:10 PM
Looks great!

However, facial animation? Or is that LW12.

DigitalSorcery8
08-18-2012, 10:34 PM
However, facial animation? Or is that LW12.
You can use endomorphs and TAFA now - works great! :thumbsup:

erikals
08-19-2012, 04:45 AM
TAFA rocks, the downside though is not being able to do it inside LW.

metahumanity
08-19-2012, 05:20 AM
So, what does it actually support when saving a rig as a Genoma preset?

Expressions? Motion plugins? And what about naming conventions in the case of expressions?

erikals
08-19-2012, 05:29 AM
should support it all, as it's based on regular tools.

metahumanity
08-19-2012, 05:42 AM
should support it all, as it's based on regular tools.

I understand that it only uses regular tools. But in the case of expressions they have to be applied with the specific name of the model. Some generic scripted rigging that only applies to the rig part wouldnt work for that (I think).

Maybe Im just not understanding Genoma right, but Im much more interested in what it can actually save in a preset than in the canned presets that already come with it.

RebelHill
08-19-2012, 06:51 AM
From the appearance, i think the presets saved are basically much as the included ones... meaning you won't be building things from scratch and saving presets to genoma... rather, youll be constructing things out of genomas parts and saving those as the presets... genoma presets, NOT rig presets.

metahumanity
08-19-2012, 07:04 AM
From the appearance, i think the presets saved are basically much as the included ones... meaning you won't be building things from scratch and saving presets to genoma... rather, youll be constructing things out of genomas parts and saving those as the presets... genoma presets, NOT rig presets.

That would be severely limiting.

RebelHill
08-19-2012, 09:14 AM
Not at all I wouldnt think.

Besides, I cant imagine a good way to save off custom rig presets anyhow... expressions, motion modifiers, possibly even third party additions/mods... forget it. And even if you could, being able to load one custom part and connect it to another custom part (which may have an ENTIRELY different rig design) and have them interact with one another correctly within the same overall rig... double forget it.

Cageman
08-19-2012, 09:49 AM
Not at all I wouldnt think.

Besides, I cant imagine a good way to save off custom rig presets anyhow... expressions, motion modifiers, possibly even third party additions/mods... forget it. And even if you could, being able to load one custom part and connect it to another custom part (which may have an ENTIRELY different rig design) and have them interact with one another correctly within the same overall rig... double forget it.

Genoma has to become fully transparent between Layout and Modeler (or in a unified environment) for such advanced stuff to happen, but that is really just the first step.

In any case... if you build a rig out of Genoma parts in Modeler, once you are happy with that (probably after going back and forth between Layout/Modeler a couple of times), you should be able to save the Modeler-part of the Genoma-rig as a Preset.

lino.grandi
08-20-2012, 07:36 AM
Genoma has to become fully transparent between Layout and Modeler (or in a unified environment) for such advanced stuff to happen, but that is really just the first step.

In any case... if you build a rig out of Genoma parts in Modeler, once you are happy with that (probably after going back and forth between Layout/Modeler a couple of times), you should be able to save the Modeler-part of the Genoma-rig as a Preset.

That's correct.

Once you've built a preset that works for you, you can save it and keep it ready to be re adapted to other similar characters.
In this case, saving the Genoma Presets is almost like saving a rig. The only difference is that you have to generate the final rig in Layout, of course.

You may also want to add things that are not still supported in this very first Genoma implementation, like math expressions, after the rig has been generated in Layout.

Cageman
08-20-2012, 07:54 PM
That's correct.

Once you've built a preset that works for you, you can save it and keep it ready to be re adapted to other similar characters.
In this case, saving the Genoma Presets is almost like saving a rig. The only difference is that you have to generate the final rig in Layout, of course.

You may also want to add things that are not still supported in this very first Genoma implementation, like math expressions, after the rig has been generated in Layout.

Yeah... as a v1.0, Genoma is much more than what I expected, I have to say! :)

A Maya-animator watched one of your presentations of Genoma, and told me that he felt that Genoma is exactly how he wants to work regarding the rigging process.. Not the back/forth between Modeler/Layout, but the idea with those preset limbs, connectors and all that and, well, that you simply model your rig and with a press of a button, everything is setup, ready to be animated (IK, FK and Polevectors). He really liked that aspect of it!

dogbite
08-21-2012, 04:26 AM
is the rig created valid to transfer to unity.
joints dont work with unity.

will it have a way to control how big the handles will be ?

tyrot
08-21-2012, 04:42 AM
excuse my ignorance for asking these
1- how genoma deals with weight maps? He mentioned it generates weight maps etc..
2- Is it weight map only bone controlling solution? It should be i guess because he could send back to MB with no problem..As far as remember it is a necessity for FBX transfer right?
3- How do you compare this with Character studio - or CAT ...
4- Is it possible to add motions to for future version? then we will have a complete CAT+Character studio just like max.. or am i lost as always? :)

MaDDoX
08-21-2012, 05:15 AM
Craig, that's how I told you once a truly user-definable rigging system should be. Not saying it was under the reach of a standard plugin, yet Genoma it's a truly revolutionary system in the way it integrates the model and the rig in a super-customizable fashion.


is the rig created valid to transfer to unity.
joints dont work with unity.
When you export to FBX it creates a Unity-compatible skeleton.

I'm also curious about the weight generation (I guess Lino mentioned it generates weights during his presentation), it seems like the now-ubiquitous heat binding. Can the weights be edited seamlessly after the rig is generated?

Another thing that I couldn't figure out is how does it handle gimbal lock. Apparently it's not generating those gnarly auxiliary joints, but if it's just a "standard Lightwave rig" as mentioned (ie. no quaternion rotation), how does it fully prevent joint flipping? Or maybe it doesn't, and only uses the standard LW IK pivot controller system?

dogbite
08-21-2012, 05:28 AM
the joints are also transfered to unity, but they arent as they are in lightwave.
they are transfered as bones with no direction and just position as though they are not connected.
and also the skining doesnt transfer well.

RebelHill
08-21-2012, 05:33 AM
No, ofc... afully custom auto riggy thing should be along such lines, modular, parts based, etc, thats all grand. However so long as we're talking standard LW rigs, there are cetain tricks in rigging that arent so easy to mkae up that way, mainly to do with deform setups. But there's other things in the mix too... like the gimbal/offset thing mentioned.

I imagine this just creates the LW standard IK, planar with an IK plane parent bone (goal targeter). If thats so, then ofc the IK plane bone is the fix for gimbal in IK mode. As for FK, well no show so far of IKFK switching, but thats fine, cos it can likely use LWs native switching. If thats the case then ofc the IKplane target bone switchees out to keyframe control too, and can be used as the FK offset for getting out of gimbal there.

This however doesnt allow for fulll autosnapped switching to take place as it best can, another thing that's hard to do in LW using the modular approach.

I think genoma's gonna be fantastic, but there's def gonna be a few small areas that fall down, not cos of genoma, but just cos of LW... they're standard rigging problems that require more complex solutions to fix. My rigs function as they do with the clever lil bits they do because they're whole rigs, many of their "modules" are highly interdependent on others. Could such an autorigger be made in the modular fashion, sure I guess... thought it'd be really quite complicated to get right, and would require certain things be available in LW which presently arent (like follower, I use that to cheat an eval order thing in my rigs... NO WAY to script/autosetup that and no other tool that lets u get the same outcome).

How close it comes how much of the time, how easy it is to fix up problems, etc and ofc how the tool itself goes on to change and improve in future are all things that'll have to have judgement held on.

RebelHill
08-21-2012, 05:42 AM
the joints are also transfered to unity, but they arent as they are in lightwave.
they are transfered as bones with no direction and just position as though they are not connected.
and also the skining doesnt transfer well.

Joints or bones to unity or elsewhere makes no difference... whats different is the way you set weights to each bone or joint, and the ways you can set the rotation axis for them. Do either approach right, and they're no different.

Bones, however are more "obvious" in how they should work, so if the final destination is unity then they're probs the best choice. joints are really for (rendered) work from LW itself, as they provide better deformation tricks and tools, or for mocap exchange work, where their co-ord layout lines up better with the same in other apps.

safetyman
08-21-2012, 10:45 AM
Some of my questions about this have been answered, but just to be clear:

After I've "rigged" a character in Layout from Genoma...
1. If I save a rigged character to v10 or whatever, does it retain all the functionality and anyone with LW 10 open it and use it?
2. If I export it to FBX, how much information will it lose?

metahumanity
08-22-2012, 01:20 PM
thought it'd be really quite complicated to get right, and would require certain things be available in LW which presently arent (like follower, I use that to cheat an eval order thing in my rigs... NO WAY to script/autosetup that and no other tool that lets u get the same outcome).


Actually you can add a fully configured follower with scripting. Just do a "get name" from your main object, write a prepared scenefile (just with the plugin and nothing more canned with a script from Enki that can pack everything into scriptform) to disc, replace the objectname with the name you got with "Getname" and then perform a "Load From Scene" from this updated file.

Similar process for configured expressions.

Obviously I just glimpsed over the process here, but it does work quite well. I did it years ago.

jwiede
08-22-2012, 10:29 PM
I'm interested to see how Genoma's workflow compares with that of C4D's Character Component system, and whether Genoma offers the same user-extensibility potential beyond just CA/rigs to making other kinds of "smart assemblies" (iow, components that invoke useful behaviors upon assembly within Genoma).

I'm still a bit unsure about the impact of going "back into" Genoma compromising already-done animation, but without actually using it it's difficult to tell how much of a real imposition that limitation presents. C4D's Character component system does seem a bit more forgiving in that regard, at least based on Genoma's descriptions and as shown.

geo_n
08-22-2012, 10:49 PM
C4D's Character Component system.

Any video of c4d ca tools that is similar to the modular approach of genoma? I only saw the autorigging tools before but it looked not as good as other ca tools from AD.
I'm excited with genoma system. It looks very flexible and super easy to setup. Though I really wished it was in layout but well we can wait for it to be brought into layout in the next lw versions.

lino.grandi
08-23-2012, 02:54 AM
Yeah... as a v1.0, Genoma is much more than what I expected, I have to say! :)

A Maya-animator watched one of your presentations of Genoma, and told me that he felt that Genoma is exactly how he wants to work regarding the rigging process.. Not the back/forth between Modeler/Layout, but the idea with those preset limbs, connectors and all that and, well, that you simply model your rig and with a press of a button, everything is setup, ready to be animated (IK, FK and Polevectors). He really liked that aspect of it!

Thanks Cageman. That's really great to know!

lino.grandi
08-23-2012, 03:09 AM
is the rig created valid to transfer to unity.
joints dont work with unity.

There should be no problem using a Genoma generated rig with Unity.
Genoma generates Bone based rigs, no joints involved at the moment.


will it have a way to control how big the handles will be ?

I've implemented user definable handles size recently, so now it's possible!
The size of some secondary controls it's still "guessed" by the system, but that should not be a problem.


excuse my ignorance for asking these
1- how genoma deals with weight maps? He mentioned it generates weight maps etc..

You have to create your Weight Maps on the model, then you can assign them to the right Genoma Subrigs in Modeler.

That way you'll have the weights automatically assigned when the rig is created in Layout.



2- Is it weight map only bone controlling solution? It should be i guess because he could send back to MB with no problem..As far as remember it is a necessity for FBX transfer right?

You don't have to assign weights to be able to export the model/animation using FBX, since FBX will automatically create weights for you, resembling LightWave's deformation.



3- How do you compare this with Character studio - or CAT ...
4- Is it possible to add motions to for future version? then we will have a complete CAT+Character studio just like max.. or am i lost as always? :)

About "automatic" animation functionality, that is something that could be implemented in the future.




Some of my questions about this have been answered, but just to be clear:

After I've "rigged" a character in Layout from Genoma...
1. If I save a rigged character to v10 or whatever, does it retain all the functionality and anyone with LW 10 open it and use it?

It should work with no problems.



2. If I export it to FBX, how much information will it lose?

Basically you only lose FK/IK controls setup.

jwiede
08-23-2012, 05:18 AM
Any video of c4d ca tools that is similar to the modular approach of genoma?
Well, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InXkRiwOQcc) gives a general overview of how Character components are used, while the videos here (http://old.cineversity.com/tutorials/index.asp?cid=5&ssp=CINEMA+4D+13) also cover using existing and creating custom component modules, etc. The general approach and modularity seem pretty similar to that of Genoma, but without hands on experience with Genoma, it's difficult to tell just how similar they are, which is why I'm asking in the first place.

jwiede
08-23-2012, 05:24 AM
Genoma generates Bone based rigs, no joints involved at the moment.
Is the plan that the 11.5 version be able to generate joint-based rigs as well by release, or is creating joint-based rig functionality that would come later?

geo_n
08-23-2012, 06:33 AM
Well, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InXkRiwOQcc) gives a general overview of how Character components are used, while the videos here (http://old.cineversity.com/tutorials/index.asp?cid=5&ssp=CINEMA+4D+13) also cover using existing and creating custom component modules, etc. The general approach and modularity seem pretty similar to that of Genoma, but without hands on experience with Genoma, it's difficult to tell just how similar they are, which is why I'm asking in the first place.

Ah that's the video I saw before that had autorigging. But this video is longer.
This looks like genoma version 2.0 actually. The advantages are already apparent. Its a good version 1.0 for c4d.

Autoweighting
Mocap import support
Procedural motion support.
Python support
Muscle support
Character picker like maestro.

safetyman
08-23-2012, 08:51 AM
Lino -- thank you very much for your responses. I look forward to using this and with your involvement, it will be a great success.

Hail
08-23-2012, 09:21 AM
Ah that's the video I saw before that had autorigging. But this video is longer.
This looks like genoma version 2.0 actually. The advantages are already apparent. Its a good version 1.0 for c4d.

Autoweighting
Mocap import support
Procedural motion support.
Python support
Muscle support
Character picker like maestro.

Well.. looks like its going to stay that way for a while since r14 hasnt added or enhanced anything in it.

jwiede
08-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Well.. looks like its going to stay that way for a while since r14 hasnt added or enhanced anything in it.
Hail, actually, that's not correct. R14 didn't make huge improvements by any means (the focus was elsewhere), but there were definitely additions and enhancements added to the character component system. See the R14 details for specifics, or just go look in the R14 demo -- they increased what kinds of things components could contain, added "advanced" components for quadrupeds, and opened up even more of the internal behaviors to customization. All told, not bad at all.

Geo_n, okay, so it sounds like the approach Genoma is taking is similar -- I see that as a good thing, the "mix-and-assemble" approach is quite powerful. I just hope Newtek makes all the inner workings accessible (all the hooks triggered by various actions on components) so we can produce our own customized component types. A lot of the strength of such systems comes from being able to adapt the output to users' own ways of working, instead of just being limited to the behaviors provided. Users need to be able to redefine and customize what occurs when components are added or attached, not just add components themselves.

One of the initial drawbacks of C4D's system in R13 (largely addressed by subsequent patches) was that it was difficult to make components that used third-party joint/rigging plugins. Hopefully Newtek will address this up front, so that if I want to create components using (for example) PLG rigging entities, the component infrastructure has the hooks so it can be modified to do so.

JMCarrigan
08-23-2012, 11:34 PM
Okay. So do I get 11.5 free or what. Please say yes.

DigitalSorcery8
08-23-2012, 11:38 PM
Okay. So do I get 11.5 free or what. Please say yes.

If you have v11, then yes, you get 11.5 for free.

geo_n
08-24-2012, 12:22 AM
Well.. looks like its going to stay that way for a while since r14 hasnt added or enhanced anything in it.

From the features in c4dr13 it looks like they covered all of the basics. Its almost comparable to characterstudio. Only things I see missing is true biped crowdsim and more mocap tools. Can't say for sure since I don't regularly use c4d.
c4dr14 added sculpting tools. Looks like a logical step to have the ability for correcting animations in a unified app.

kopperdrake
08-24-2012, 05:10 AM
Forgive me for my ignorance, but is there any mileage in Genoma and Maestro playing together? Do they overlap at all?

erikals
08-24-2012, 05:35 AM
Maestro doesn't run in LW11 afaik...

geo_n
08-24-2012, 05:58 AM
Forgive me for my ignorance, but is there any mileage in Genoma and Maestro playing together? Do they overlap at all?
If genoma is a standard rig in layout then maestro could still be useful as a picker and the dopesheet has useful functions not in lw. Customizing ui is neat.



Maestro doesn't run in LW11 afaik...
It runs but there are some bugs with the hotspot not being realtime. Turn viewport into vertices view and its realtime.
I still use it because picking items in layout is easier with maestro.

kopperdrake
08-24-2012, 07:23 AM
I still haven't installed Maestro in LW11 so it's good to hear it's still somewhat useful. I assume the ultra quick rigging that Maestro allows with its preset skeletons is where Genoma will replace it, but what about the animating abilities of Maestro? I guess Genoma won't be helping in that area so something like Maestro will still be needed?

kfinla
08-24-2012, 09:44 PM
I'm lookin forward to playing with the muscle bones, it's always been overly complicated or scripts and plugins have not shown up on the Mac side.

JMCarrigan
08-25-2012, 12:17 AM
If you have v11, then yes, you get 11.5 for free.

Woo Hoo! :D

JMCarrigan
08-25-2012, 08:41 PM
BTW. When is 11.5 due for release? Huh? Huh?

DigitalSorcery8
08-25-2012, 08:46 PM
BTW. When is 11.5 due for release? Huh? Huh?

Sometime during Q4. I would expect December. Late, December. :)

erikals
08-26-2012, 04:50 AM
in 3 months or so... maybe 2...

kfinla
08-26-2012, 07:10 AM
Hopefully there is an 11.04, between now and 11.5. I have been fighting bugs that weren't caught in .02 or .03, unless 11.5 shows up in early October because I would also guess towards late December as the 11.5 deliverable.

erikals
08-26-2012, 07:30 AM
"important" bugs?

kfinla
08-26-2012, 08:13 AM
Bugs that make working with MDD/geocache data more painful than need be. Bugs that make certain instancing modes useless to all but the most basic application. Bugs that show some instancing dialogue fields are just broken. And some bugs that make sharing files (with instancing) between mac and win LW show different results. As for feature requests, hopefully its not too late to make it into 11.5, if NT deems them worthwhile to implement (all instancing related).

erikals
08-26-2012, 08:23 AM
yeah, definitely sounds like something to check into...

Greenlaw
08-26-2012, 10:06 AM
Have you fogbugzed?

kfinla
08-26-2012, 11:31 AM
Have you fogbugzed?

Several, most with content. I'm hoping one I just submitted can be repro'd successfully on their end.

Digital Hermit
08-26-2012, 04:43 PM
If I understand correctly, Genoma has rigs that are already "characterized" in Motionbuilder. Forgive my ignorance, does that mean that Lightwaves rig naming conventions will match the ones in Motionbuilder, so that you will not have to manually match them?

Cageman
08-26-2012, 06:23 PM
If I understand correctly, Genoma has rigs that are already "characterized" in Motionbuilder. Forgive my ignorance, does that mean that Lightwaves rig naming conventions will match the ones in Motionbuilder, so that you will not have to manually match them?

Yes...

Lino demonstrated one of the biped rigs in Genoma that has been built with Motionbuilder in mind, and it generates bones that follows the namingconvetion Motionbuilder wants for characterization.

DigitalSorcery8
08-26-2012, 06:27 PM
Yes...

Lino demonstrated one of the biped rigs in Genoma that has been built with Motionbuilder in mind, and it generates bones that follows the namingconvetion Motionbuilder wants for characterization.

Awesome - absolutely awesome!

Another workflow enhancement. Bravo Newtek.

Okay, looks like it's nearly time to upgrade. Now if I could just find the cash... :stumped:

Digital Hermit
08-26-2012, 07:09 PM
Yes...

Lino demonstrated one of the biped rigs in Genoma that has been built with Motionbuilder in mind, and it generates bones that follows the namingconvetion Motionbuilder wants for characterization.

Nice, my other concern is… What if I have two or more similar rigs in Motionbuilder from Lightwave, will there be a way to differentiate between the bone naming conventions of those rigs? For example, I have three zombies, "zombie 1", "zombie 2" and "zombie 3". Would there be a way to globally add naming prefixes to all the bones, so that Motionbuilder would be able to distinguish between similar multiple rigs or even in Lightwave for that matter?

Or is there a workflow convention that I am not aware of?

Greenlaw
08-26-2012, 08:50 PM
Motion Builder has the option to use Name Spaces to differentiate multiple rigs with the same names. When you're ready to send the data back to Lightwave there is a command that can remove the Names Spaces.

G.

The Wizzard
05-23-2014, 11:26 AM
I finally did a tutorial on: "Lightwave to MotionBuilder and Back again "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eju1edD7k0A

I hope it helps some of you :)

The Wizzard
05-25-2014, 04:36 PM
I've uploaded the next tutorial...
"Lightwave to MotionBuilder to ENDORPHIN and Back again"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSkDM-l38hM

Enjoy :)