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TheAwesome3d
08-09-2012, 05:27 PM
Let us go over the new main modeling tools.

ABF Uv Unwrap – plg make uv edit (without the control)
Edit Edges - D Edge slide/Connect
Slice tool - Add edges tool (Currently in LightWave)
Place mesh - PX Onmove
Heat Shrink – Heat Press
Thicken – Thicken/Thickener
Chamfer – edge bevel/rounder
Pick align - PX Onmove
Pick Translate- Same as pick align but with a pretty line.
Pick Rotate -Translate Plus (Currently in LightWave)

:newtek:

stevecullum
08-09-2012, 05:31 PM
Great! I won't have to bother with those plugins now then... ;)

hrgiger
08-09-2012, 05:48 PM
Chamfer – edge bevel/rounder

I didn't see anywhere that Chamfer rounded edges... did someone else?




Pick Rotate -Translate Plus



Not sure I understand this one. I mean, I understand how it works and what it does, but I don't understand why we don't have something like this as an action center instead of a dedicated modeling tool.

jwiede
08-09-2012, 07:59 PM
Not sure I understand this one. I mean, I understand how it works and what it does, but I don't understand why we don't have something like this as an action center instead of a dedicated modeling tool.
Agreed, it really seems like that one would be more useful as part of action centers / pivots versus as a distinct, standalone modeling tool.

Amurrell
08-09-2012, 08:13 PM
I would say that edit edges is closer to the Swift Edge Loop plugin.
Slice tool is like add edges but more interactive and has snapping features displayed.
Thicken is thicken, and the others, stated already, but the subtleties in the tools themselves are what we should really be excited about.

Sensei
08-09-2012, 08:42 PM
I would say that edit edges is closer to the Swift Edge Loop plugin.

Rather poor cheap imitation of TrueArt's SwiftEdgeLoop..

SwiftEdgeLoop:
user can switch on/off whether user polygon selection will be obeyed or not (and it works with sliding, slicing and dissolving)
it has integrated dissolve edge/dissolve edge loop (just hold control key)
sliding edge or edge loop be left mouse clicking on edge
making edge or edge loop by right mouse clicking on edge
dissolve edge or edge loop by right mouse clicking on edge with control key hold.
analyzing polygon curvature to have newly made edge loop preserving smoothness of original mesh.

TheAwesome3d
08-09-2012, 09:40 PM
I didn't see anywhere that Chamfer rounded edges... did someone else?




Not sure I understand this one. I mean, I understand how it works and what it does, but I don't understand why we don't have something like this as an action center instead of a dedicated modeling tool.

The point chamfer demonstrated was the same as using rounder with a point selection.

The pick rotate tool is literally the Translate Plus tool set to operation:rotate with axis set to segment.

Wade
08-09-2012, 09:52 PM
Happy to have them built in ready to go. There was mention that these were just the start of much to come. But perhaps not until 12? Nice work happy to have it in 11.5 at no addtional cost.

lino.grandi
08-09-2012, 10:23 PM
Happy to have them built in ready to go. There was mention that these were just the start of much to come. But perhaps not until 12? Nice work happy to have it in 11.5 at no addtional cost.

These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

hrgiger
08-09-2012, 10:53 PM
The point chamfer demonstrated was the same as using rounder with a point selection.



Well not exactly. Rounder gives you the option to add more segments and round the bevel. All Chamfer was doing was beveling the points which every other program out there allows you to do. Not the same as rounding.

Ernest
08-10-2012, 12:31 AM
It almost seems like all that the chamfer tool is doing is... chamfering!
How weird.:stumped:

madno
08-10-2012, 12:43 AM
These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

Well, now I am really curious.

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 12:46 AM
These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

I'm just glad to see Modeler getting some love with the rest of the application. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the iceberg ;)

DogBoy
08-10-2012, 01:50 AM
Let us go over the new main modeling tools.

You really are missing the point. As mr. Cullum said, the functionality can be found in a bunch of 3rd party add ins, some of which have added features. Unfortunately it requires that the user a) knows of these tools and b) goes out of their way to find and add them. This way new users have the basic functionality, and those who prefer the other tools are free to keep using them.


ABF UV Unwrap – plg make uv edit (without the control)
:newtek:

Sure, PLG Make UV Edit is the nearest equivalent, but they aren't the same thing. PLG is much more of a wide ranging tool, which replicates some of the native LW tools like Make UVs. It's ability to be able to split a mesh by surfaces is awesome. As a suite of tools PLG is unbeaten (within LW).

... but I contest your "without the control", it is absolutely abysmal for selection. It is horribly finicky; it only accepts an edge if you click its very center. Selecting edges in Subpatch mode means guessing where the center of the edge on the control cage. You have to individually select an edge.

the Advance Edge feature is a crap shoot: It only goes in the direction that you made your first selection, and if it meets a point where the loops diverges it makes its on decision on which way to proceed. If it goes the wrong way you are left having to individually unselecting the edges, edge by edge. This is unbelievably slow.

It doesn't do symmetry. Whats with that? So, once you have inched your way down an arm and around a hand, you then have to go and do the same again on the other arm.

Oh, did i mention overlaps? PLG often leaves overlaps on intricate meshes.

This all means you have to develop a workflow to use it. It is not a fast solution where it matters.

It is very easy to think PLG is better than it is when compared to what LW had natively. The fact is I fight them quite often to get what I want.

As for the new tool: it is purely an unwrapper, true, but it allows you to use the default selection tools, which means symmetry as well. it also works with Subpatches as if they were polys. Those minor things mean it's going to be much faster to work with.

So I see it as a complementary tool to the PLG toolset, as i can unwrap with it then use the other PLGs to relax and pack the charts.

DogBoy
08-10-2012, 03:43 AM
Sorry, I'm sure that came out as an angry rant, but I really felt the OP was trolling. Unfortunately I fed the troll :bangwall:

Kuzey
08-10-2012, 04:17 AM
These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

This is what got me really excited...not the Cody demos as such, but the fact Modeler got some lovin & the impressionism it's only the beginning...LW12 should be kick *** :thumbsup:

I presume the "Extend it" isn't finalized yet to be shown off..but still, Modeler is looking sexy...once again :hey:

Kuzey

OnlineRender
08-10-2012, 06:16 AM
still, Modeler is looking sexy...once again :hey:

Kuzey

a lot of work needing done for that to happen but glad it got some lovin

tyrot
08-10-2012, 06:19 AM
instead of adding -not so cool- tools.. please add high poly mesh support..

Instead of coming up almost same tool with few tricks please do improve polygon number in modeler.

I think NT's way of dealing with modeler is totally wrong. Do we have a camera view for photo modelling after eons? no..in 2012 i cannot easily model anything for photo match. How cool is that!

Can i move hi poly mesh just like in layout (as we move the object it turns into box mode for opengl performance) ? Hell no .

Do not add same tools with few tricks ... please enough..If you wanna give me tools please "purchase" from LWCAD (or trueart or pictrix) and add those tools into Lightwave...Stop trying to find NEW ways of snapping - pictrix made it free years ago.

I really do not wanna see NT versions of old tools..It is like NT is not confronting the real issues of modeler... that is utterly depressing!

Julez4001
08-10-2012, 06:23 AM
Agreed, it really seems like that one would be more useful as part of action centers / pivots versus as a distinct, standalone modeling tool.

Unless you like your standard action center, you can hotkey this move for that moment, execute and return to satandard. I wouldn't think that be part of your average workflow.



GOOD POINT. DOG BOY!

stevenpalomino
08-10-2012, 06:37 AM
These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

That's what I like to hear!!! On top of that I heard rob say (I'm pretty sure it was the final day) that they were currently working hard with third-party developers to integrate new renderers? (!!)

I didn't catch the new UV tools in the stream.. anyone know if they're a replacement for plg_uv?

Kuzey
08-10-2012, 06:45 AM
a lot of work needing done for that to happen but glad it got some lovin

Agreed :D

I remember..it was mentioned that most of the Modeler upgrades were done under the hood..so I'm expecting to see more & better tools for LW12....including all of what tyrot said.

But...we'll have to wait & see. It does seem & feel like they are getting back on track...fingers crossed :hey:

Kuzey

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 07:13 AM
Sorry, I'm sure that came out as an angry rant, but I really felt the OP was trolling. Unfortunately I fed the troll :bangwall:

No apology necessary, but judging by the lack of previous posts and the first one being a whine, I would also conclude a troll was on the loose.

MAUROCOR
08-10-2012, 07:26 AM
For now what we have is a very welcomed FREE upgrade with a LOT of GOOD NEW FEATURES. I don´t think we should complain about that.

I am sure the show will not stop so soon and after a period of frustating time I can see a brighter light on the horizon again.

It seams the LW 3D group are doing a very good and deep work with LW.
Certainly all those requests we asked for in the Core times wasn´t a waste of time and they ARE working hard to bring LW to the new century.

As Lino told about the new modeling tools, that is only the tip of a very BIG iceberg. Let´s enjoy what we will get free this time, say thank you and wait fot the next LW round. I think they will surprise us!

Pavlov
08-10-2012, 07:30 AM
i think they partially are trying *also* to fill the gap between 32 bit and 64 bit plugins.
I.e. KO pointfit, which is a must have tool, was only 32, and same for pictrix's P_clone... and lot of others.
This forces most users to use modeler 32 bit and layout 64 bit, whioch means double install and keeping updated both versions of the plugins. I.e. i updated maxwell plugin in layout 64 bit, but i forgot to update modeler plugin 32bit, and i lost all materials on a model because i called it via hub and then i saved it. Wokflow wise, this double install thing is a pure mess.
There's a large list of must have 3dpart tools which are only 32 bit (i feeded it here on forum too), and here i see NT added some of them. Hope they will fill the gap and this alone will be a major usability step ahead. Afterall it's 11.5, not 12.0.

Paolo

CaptainMarlowe
08-10-2012, 07:39 AM
@Pavlov
You're right : only 32 bits ore only windows. Having these functions for mac users is most welcome !

prometheus
08-10-2012, 07:43 AM
I had expected quite a lot more in modeling enhancement, but thinking of it sober..I might have had to much expectations for a 11.5 release.

And I think I can see what might come here with the tip of the iceberg and with the showcase of the few new tools in LW11.5, I think I have a hunch somehow.

Personally I thought we could have seen the core sculpt tools, core bending tools..Plus either history stack, or modifiers in Layout..we will see in due time I guess.

I like to see how the merge triangles tool will work, and how it can handle CAD data tesselation, I do not think we will see anything near Modos tesselation engine within the Cad loader though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFYDrkUjcW0

For my work related product renders with all solidworks CAD data, I sometimes question my self about wether or not Im using the lesser good software for this with Lightwave because of the Modo colloboration with Solidworks etc.
I do love Lightwave the most otherwise.

Michael

prometheus
08-10-2012, 07:45 AM
i think they partially are trying *also* to fill the gap between 32 bit and 64 bit plugins.
I.e. KO pointfit, which is a must have tool, was only 32, and same for pictrix's P_clone... and lot of others.

Paolo

Pictrix just recently posted sp_move for windows 64 bit.
I would love to get the Px_bezier curve too.

I sent him a mail regarding this and will start to donate when that happens, and urge others to do so too.

Michael

Tobian
08-10-2012, 08:06 AM
< sarcasm >

Modeler haz no updates

MODELER HAS NO UPDATES

(repeat whinge 40 trillion times)

OMG Modeler still haz no updates....

(Modeler gets updates)

OMG they didn't replicate the entire Modo/XSI/Max tooolset THEY FAIL!

< / sarcasm>

The first thing we do when we FINALLY get some Modeler loving is to immediately complain about them. Sure I would love more, but this is the first update in umpteen years which has had much of any update to Modeler, so I am genuinely pleased.

Ok breaking this down.. How many of those 3rd party tools work on anything other than 32 bit Modeler, or just on the PC, or just on the pre Leopard update of OSX etc. I'm guessing many of them. Things move on and sadly many 3rd party tools do not. Good luck getting that update to Vertibevel when they change the Modeler architecture and all of the plugins break.

With regards to the tools which have better 3rd party versions.. well good, that means you still have a market! I just want some basic, modern workflow tools such as edge sliding can stop relying on 3rd party tools, and everyone can share in the goodness.

With regards to people who expected major architectural changes in Modeler in a .5 upgrade.. well yeah that was NEVER going to happen, you just set yourself up for disappointment there. Believe me I would LOVE better high poly support in LW, but I understand it is not as trivial as adding a line of code which says "Make moree fasterrrrrrr" to Modeler and it is magically fixed :p It's going to take major revisions to the underpinnings of the basic architecture. If they are not careful they will break every single plugin in the thing, including the native ones, and that will not be fun to re-write! Adding objects, groups, cameras, lights etc again are alien concepts to Modeler, and will not be trivial to add. It would be faster to move modeler into layout and, so yeah.. that's planned, it's just not going to be fast, and never in a point release.

I will also note: None of these tools had the numeric interface showing, so we don't know what extra options are available. They are also beta, so they will clearly be working on polishing them up and working out the wrinkles which we saw at SIGGRAPH. Perhaps it would be more helpful to offer suggestions on how to tweak / improve the tools rather than just go on the offensive immediately?

With regards to translate plus. what a horrible buggy non-obvious piece of turd. I never use that plugin as I never know what to expect or how to make it work. I'd rather have a set of clearly labelled tools, even if under the hood they are all the same plugin accessed by a different button. Plugins which try to do too much just fail because you would never think to look there.

With regards to pick rotate: The reason that it is not an action centre is quite obvious: Because all of the action centres in lightwave are basically single points which work round the cartesian coordinate system. This tool has an arbitrary hinge on any angle, something the current action centres can't do. So again, yeah basically a complete re-write of the action centre system to behave more like workplanes. This is basically another disguised "Why U No have Workplanes yet!" rant. Because they don't. Next!

tyrot
08-10-2012, 08:33 AM
tobian mate..seriously.. modeler love? What kind of love is this? and what kind of ICEBERG is this? i saw many icebergs melted or evaporated in MANY updates... Thanks to endless plugin support from 3rd party, lightwave modeler is still the core application for us.. ..

Who wants lights in modeler seriously? I say it is very pathetic that we cannot match a single photo before dealing workflows ..why? because there is NO camera view.

Lightwave updates has become layout updates...Layout this layout that ..

Put virtual camera in layout , put kinect in layout, put webcam in layout ..

Oh please can you just put camera in modeler and give me a better performance..

djwaterman
08-10-2012, 08:44 AM
And modeler is already pretty damn fine in many regards, those things they just added were well considered additions. We all have a list of things, I'm sure 'the Lightwave group' has a bigger one. Call me sucker, but watching all that Sigraph streaming has brainwashed me and my attitude towards Lightwave has really turned around.

djwaterman
08-10-2012, 08:46 AM
It would be nice if the perspective view in modeler could be synced to a Layout camera somehow, that would be very useful yes.

Verlon
08-10-2012, 09:17 AM
I have been vocal in my criticism of Newtek and their lack of updates to modeler. LW11 is the first version I did not pre-order since I bought my original copy of 5.5. I bought a competing application instead.

11.5 is something I consider to be a very positive sign. People wanted better CA tools, and Genoma certainly looks like that. We asked for better edge tools, and there seems to be something in that vein.

There are numerous plugins out there that are no longer developed. Nothing from Worley works on Mac64 systems, and he is touted as a major player in LW 3rd Party. I, for one, am quite glad to see these updates. This is the first time I even considered buying LW11, and I am hopeful for a solid LW12 for the first time since Core was abandoned.

Yes, this could all turn into broken promises. I do not believe this will be the case. It really looks to me like Newtek is putting a renewed effort into Lightwave in the aftermath of what I would consider a lackluster 10-11.03 period.

DogBoy
08-10-2012, 09:19 AM
It would be nice if the perspective view in modeler could be synced to a Layout camera somehow, that would be very useful yes.

The only issue with that is that you would have a viewport that was locked: you pick stuff through it, or change viewtype, but that couldn't be tumbled.
As much as i understand Tyrots request, I think it would be annoying to use.

tyrot
08-10-2012, 09:30 AM
i have no problem with layout - genoma, aelink etc. etc. layout is in new level right now.... my only issue with modeler and its performance..

djwaterman
08-10-2012, 10:51 AM
I would envision it being something you could turn on and off as needed while trying to match geometry to camera background plates, or you could just turn one of the other viewports to perspective and have the other one set to 'Camera Sync'.

aidenvfx
08-10-2012, 11:22 AM
Personally I love what is going into 11.5 for modeling tools. The new bevel tool is going to me a huge time saver for myself. This is also a free update so to get any new tools is nice.

As for those not happy I get it but expecting massive performance on a point release is probably expecting to much. However what I think this shows is that LW 12 may have a large improvement to modeler and bring in more sculpting, painting features which would be nice to see.

As for the comments on PLG UV plugin it does not work on a new Mac so the new native UV tools will be very welcome.

Overall LW 11 has being a HUGE update to LW and I look forward to getting to play with the new tools.

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 12:48 PM
i have no problem with layout - genoma, aelink etc. etc. layout is in new level right now.... my only issue with modeler and its performance..

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of users probably spend most time in Layout, it makes sense for NT to focus their attention on it to begin with. Now that has come along nicely, it appear it's time for Modeler to get some much needed TLC. I'm very sure, having what I've seen of new tools under the direction of Rob, that any updates to Modeler will be just as good - just need to allow them the time to sort it. Yes in the past many things were said and never appeared, but everything that has been said since the new team has taken control has happened and as happened in a good way. For the past couple of years I've become rather jaded with 3D in general, but LW11 has re-lit the burners and I'm all enthusiastic again - so thanks NT for the great work you have been doing, keep it up. :thumbsup:

Tobian
08-10-2012, 03:51 PM
Bearing in mind that the vast majority of users probably spend most time in Layout, it makes sense for NT to focus their attention on it to begin with.

Based on?
I think the majority of users use Modeler.. also based on no facts :p

jeric_synergy
08-10-2012, 04:13 PM
I think the majority of users use Modeler.. also based on no facts :p
Finally, some accuracy. :hey:

++

Totally opinion: I do think the lack of camera modeling, just for quick masks, nothing photometric or elaborate, is starting to look bad.

That particular feature would cover up a host of shortcomings.

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Based on?
I think the majority of users use Modeler.. also based on no facts

Mine's based on what I heard and saw at Siggraph, the whole one man band thing and out of the people I do know that use LW, the largest % using both modeler and layout.

It would be interesting to know for sure, but I'm pretty confident with my educated guess :hey:

jeric_synergy
08-10-2012, 04:34 PM
This is the kind of anecdotal impression that is worse than useless, it can cause the misallocation of resources.

I'd hope that somewhere/sometime NTek actually does real research on this question.

wyattharris
08-10-2012, 04:53 PM
Unless I've missed something the tools that were displayed showed a higher level of interactivity in native LW then was previously available.

I'm rewatching Cody now. Like I thought, I'm seeing active edge and vertex selections and the surface normal being detected interactively. Again, in NATIVE LW I don't remember that being possible. So perhaps this first set of tools isn't what you want but look beyond that. Modeler to me is getting more robust at the low level. Maybe we're starting to see Core integration. I don't know but there's definitely more going on than, "Yawn, more boring tools."

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 05:04 PM
This is the kind of anecdotal impression that is worse than useless, it can cause the misallocation of resources.

I'd hope that somewhere/sometime NTek actually does real research on this question.

I'm quite sure Newtek has access to far more accurate information about the current user base than speculative guess work. I really don't think they stuck a finger in the air and then decided to foucs on Layout. I'm sure a lot of research went into their decision - after all, this is a costly endeavour and you wouldn't invest your time and resources without that info. I'm as keen as anyone else to see modeler get some focus and very pleased to see it happening now.

Tobian
08-10-2012, 05:11 PM
Sorry I'm confused.. You think most people use layout or you think most people use both?

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Sorry I'm confused.. You think most people use layout or you think most people use both?

Both.

Tobian
08-10-2012, 05:21 PM
Unless I've missed something the tools that were displayed showed a higher level of interactivity in native LW then was previously available.

I'm rewatching Cody now. Like I thought, I'm seeing active edge and vertex selections and the surface normal being detected interactively. Again, in NATIVE LW I don't remember that being possible. So perhaps this first set of tools isn't what you want but look beyond that. Modeler to me is getting more robust at the low level. Maybe we're starting to see Core integration. I don't know but there's definitely more going on than, "Yawn, more boring tools."

and he used Chamfer on an.... Open edge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We've been waiting for that since they added edge bevel :)

I'll reserve judgement on the responsive thing till I see these tools used on a 500K+ mesh, since even multishift wizzes by like a bullet train on a low poly object...

jeric_synergy
08-10-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm quite sure Newtek has access to far more accurate information about the current user base than speculative guess work. I really don't think they stuck a finger in the air and then decided to foucs on Layout. I'm sure a lot of research went into their decision - after all, this is a costly endeavour and you wouldn't invest your time and resources without that info. I'm as keen as anyone else to see modeler get some focus and very pleased to see it happening now.
Well, I'd hope. I find your optimism touching though.

I've seen FARRRrrrraarRRRrrrAARrr more money spent on initiatives with exactly that sort of research (ie, finger in the wind) than NewTek dreams of. It's not like I ever got the feeling that there's a user research department down there in San Antonio. Perhaps there is.

I think they just muddle through, like most software companies.

Now, I will say that with the advent of Rob P., I believe they are far more likely to initiate actual user testing. But up to now, no.

stevecullum
08-10-2012, 05:39 PM
Well, I'd hope. I find your optimism touching though.

I've seen FARRRrrrraarRRRrrrAARrr more money spent on initiatives with exactly that sort of research (ie, finger in the wind) than NewTek dreams of. It's not like I ever got the feeling that there's a user research department down there in San Antonio. Perhaps there is.

I think they just muddle through, like most software companies.

Now, I will say that with the advent of Rob P., I believe they are far more likely to initiate actual user testing. But up to now, no.

My thoughts exactly, Rob will have done his homework.

jeric_synergy
08-10-2012, 05:56 PM
What I'd LOVE to see is a team of NewTek people who went around taping people at work, and counted & timed their various interactions w/the software.

Tedious as hell, but shows where the $$$ should be spent.

And with a variety of users: from Jen and Dave to, well, me. (IOW, the opposite ends of the spectrum.)

Cageman
08-10-2012, 06:18 PM
Oh please can you just put camera in modeler and give me a better performance..

They can't do everything in one go... an observant person would see that things on the architectual side of things are moving by what was shown on Siggraph regarding Modeler. The stuff you request (high performance) isn't trivial at all; it requires a whole lot of architectural changes in how Modeler (and also Layout) operates regarding a whole lot of things.

You simply have to be patient about the process of all this stuff. If you need to have vastly more performance for modeling, you should add a tool that does that for you until LW does for you what you want it to do. It is a quite simple concept; use the tools that gets the job done!

tyrot
08-10-2012, 06:19 PM
steve actually i know lots of people who use lightwave just for its modeler (thanks to victor and other plugin writers)

so do not underestimate us, unfortunately we do not have virtual cameras to show our previz to big hollywood directors but we do have clients in archviz and they usually give us projects with millions of polygons ... and i hate to see my modeler crawl ..

dont you think it is a very "very" major issue that you should address it before another edge slice or edge bevel tool even before Virtual Camera jack ins etc.

I mean they can say "guys we understand you but without a total rewrite it is impossible to achieve that performance " ...Ok i accept that. I am just sick of seeing another tool in modeler updates.. I think it is a bad JOKE! They do not need to release anything they could just say "guys it is VERY hard to do ..we are trying to figure out" Ok then we can wait...

tyrot
08-10-2012, 06:21 PM
yes cageman.. so the question is why we always have to pay for layout updates?

and please do not advice patience.. Modeler part of Lightwave is in total darkness for eons!

VPR -- check
Bullet -- check
Genoma -- check
Lots of other improvements in layout -- check

I mean all the effort is going to layout side for many years... who is gonna update the core of modeler? Victor?

Cageman
08-10-2012, 06:24 PM
I mean they can say "guys we understand you but without a total rewrite it is impossible to achieve that performance " ...Ok i accept that. I am just sick of seeing another tool in modeler updates.. I think it is a bad JOKE! They do not need to release anything they could just say "guys it is VERY hard to do ..we are trying to figure out" Ok then we can wait...

You are missing the point though... some changes that has been made has allowed for tools like Genoma to be added. Should NT not add Genoma just because they haven't implemented the complete change that allows for everything to happen in one go?

Cageman
08-10-2012, 06:25 PM
yes cageman.. so the question is why we always have to pay for layout updates?

Oh... I thought you used Layout... sorry, my bad... :P

tyrot
08-10-2012, 06:32 PM
layout? ... ring me when clarisse out :)

Amurrell
08-10-2012, 07:02 PM
Rather poor cheap imitation of TrueArt's SwiftEdgeLoop..

SwiftEdgeLoop:
user can switch on/off whether user polygon selection will be obeyed or not (and it works with sliding, slicing and dissolving)
it has integrated dissolve edge/dissolve edge loop (just hold control key)
sliding edge or edge loop be left mouse clicking on edge
making edge or edge loop by right mouse clicking on edge
dissolve edge or edge loop by right mouse clicking on edge with control key hold.
analyzing polygon curvature to have newly made edge loop preserving smoothness of original mesh.

No disrespect intended, but at first blush it looked very similar.

On the subject of subtleties that I saw with the tools, I would say 2 stood out for the most part, that of the snapping features (still young) and pre-selection highlighting, just in the edit edges tool, but could be used elsewhere. Interactivity is always handy as in the tool that places background objects on the surface of foreground layers. There are quite a few little things that can add up to big things in short order.

hrgiger
08-10-2012, 08:31 PM
You are missing the point though... some changes that has been made has allowed for tools like Genoma to be added. Should NT not add Genoma just because they haven't implemented the complete change that allows for everything to happen in one go?

Well Tyrot wants modeler performance and I can understand that. After all, modeler has been pretty much ignored for the last several years. And now that they are adding some modeler improvements, its coming in the terms of new tools and not core improvements, at least that we can see. So I'm curious as to the approach that they are taking and what order they are implementing things. They seem to be giving us a lot of new tools, but not adressing the environments they work in. Seems like it should be the other way around wouldn't you think? Why give us new modeling tools that work in modeler which suffers from poor performance at mid to hgher polygon counts? Before they've fixed CC subdivision? Why implement something like Genoma before fixing performance and deformation issues in Layout? Maybe its all part of their long term plan, but it just seems odd to add a bunch of new tools before fixing the environments that they will operate in.

Mind you, this isn't so much a complaint as it is just outright curiosity. I think 11.5 seems like a very worthy update with several very useful additions so I don't want to make it seem like I don't appreciate the work going into this update. I just wonder why we're are not hearing more about any progress towards integration or handling large datasets like Rob talked about when CORE was scrapped.

OFF
08-10-2012, 08:53 PM
certainly understandable - to take a deep modernization of the LW they should get the money, to get the money they must be good at selling LW, to do this in today's competitive need to attract potential buyers, and is now a means to attract potential customer is a virtual studio that advertises quite well Rob Powers...

stevecullum
08-11-2012, 07:55 AM
steve actually i know lots of people who use lightwave just for its modeler (thanks to victor and other plugin writers)

so do not underestimate us, unfortunately we do not have virtual cameras to show our previz to big hollywood directors but we do have clients in archviz and they usually give us projects with millions of polygons ... and i hate to see my modeler crawl ..

dont you think it is a very "very" major issue that you should address it before another edge slice or edge bevel tool even before Virtual Camera jack ins etc.

I mean they can say "guys we understand you but without a total rewrite it is impossible to achieve that performance " ...Ok i accept that. I am just sick of seeing another tool in modeler updates.. I think it is a bad JOKE! They do not need to release anything they could just say "guys it is VERY hard to do ..we are trying to figure out" Ok then we can wait...

Reading through the Siggraph magazine, it does suggest underlying changes have been made in modeler to accomodate their fourth coming plans, so until we try it for ourselves we won't know what that means for end user performance.

jeric_synergy
08-11-2012, 09:36 AM
While it's suspicious that changes in Modeler infrastructure haven't exactly been trumpeted at SIGGRAPH, it would be nice if the forum would chill the frack out until we get our sweaty little mitts on it and can see what's what fer realz.

Buncha schoolgirls.

Pavlov
08-11-2012, 10:39 AM
lol.

Ivan D. Young
08-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Well for those that were there and remember. It was stated by either Jay or Jonas that they could of "Skinned" the Modeler UI in Core. In those days that was not the direction or goal of LW development. That was years ago, so who knows? If they could put a web browser and Apps in a viewport and all the other funky things Core was capable of. I would not be surprised if some variation of Modeler UI and different internals were possible.

There is sometime before 11.5 hits the streets. Let's see how performance is before everyone gets worked up.

wyattharris
08-11-2012, 11:15 AM
Well, here's a good spot for an official response.

Rob, Matt, Lino or anyone else at Lightwave, how is Modeler performance on high density meshes? I know you guys don't want to talk about anything until it's official but seeing as how LW 11.5 is official now what do you say.

Or perhaps no work has gone into that side of Modeler yet and it's just been tool development. That's fine, not what people want to hear, but at least we can set expectations.

I barely use Modeler for anything high res anymore anyway. I usually start everything in ZBrush now as base meshes have become so easy to make in ZB.

Tobian
08-11-2012, 11:50 AM
I do agree we need to wait till we see it before making further assumptions. From how I read it they have made behind the scenes alterations but that doesn't neccesarilly conflate to obvious improvements visible now. It's much the same as how I model really. I can be going for ages making a series of really complex intersections booleans and cleaning up afterwards. To the observer it looks pretty much the same as before but It's much better behind the scenes and can lead to sudden apparent improvement later - because of all of that work behind the scenes.

The changes they will need to make will lead to long periods of apparent inactivity to allow these huge but necessary changes behind the scenes, to allow it. It was going to be Core or this but either path is not going to be fast!

khan973
08-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Just made a post on an other thread.
They told me that this is being taken care of and that there has already been some improvments in internal builds. As they said, what we see is just the tip of the iceberg

geo_n
08-11-2012, 11:51 AM
If you check the ibounce thread there's some indication of modelling capabilities in layout from one programmer.
If NT focuses full force on modelling in layout it could be functional in a year :D
As featured as modo 1.0 in 2 years. Stable and versatile in 3 years. But they have to start now. C4d hase started sculpting. 3Dcoat is intergrating a polymodeller. Asset creation is becoming more and more common not just as entry jobs. Throw a rock and you hit a modeller person noob or master. Everyone wants to create games for tablets even normal people. Its going to be huge market for games with tablets so affordable. They need 3d tools to create this stuff, it doesn't have to be as strong as maya, xsi. Just solid and easy to use.

tyrot
08-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Asset creation is becoming more and more common not just as entry jobs. Throw a rock and you hit a modeller person noob or master. Everyone wants to create games for tablets even normal people. Its going to be huge market for games with tablets so affordable. They need 3d tools to create this stuff, it doesn't have to be as strong as maya, xsi. Just solid and easy to use.

totally agree. and we have very capable modeler for also archviz work with one of the best modelling plugin lwcad (and many other useful plugins)...

Lots of architects sit beside me and they were in shock how fast LW modeler for modelling solids. So i think there is a huge market still there for LW..

((But no matter what, we need a world class renderer in Layout. I am still wishing for GPU native/worley renderer for Lightwave in order to compete VRAY infested archviz industry.

Also it is a very good time to call OTOY and connect Octane to LW's layout... man that would change everything. ))

erikals
08-11-2012, 01:31 PM
These new modeling tools are just the tip of a very big iceberg, as stated by Cody during Siggraph. ;)

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/bowdown.gif

hrgiger
08-11-2012, 01:34 PM
If you check the ibounce thread there's some indication of modelling capabilities in layout from one programmer.


Well with all due respect to Hurley who is a talented programmer, its nothing that hasn't been done before in Layout. It doesn't really show that Layout is any closer to becoming an app that can support the modeling capabilities of modeler. We saw plug-ins some 10 years ago that could manipulate individual vertices in Layout and of course he has no idea how those modeling capabilities that he's making in Layout could be animated so I wouldn't be too jazzed yet about the whole thing.

geo_n
08-11-2012, 02:04 PM
really 10 years ago? I'd be curious to see that seriously. Hurley showed something with undo. Creation of new geometry with fracture also shows capabilies in layout to start modelling outside of modeller. The code must be there now which I think hurley said was not there before lw 9.

erikals
08-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Steve White is right, FI's MiniMo was created about 10 years ago...
http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=55278d60

had it's own camera view window, but still, was pretty promising...

Cageman
08-11-2012, 03:46 PM
Steve White is right, FI's MiniMo was created about 10 years ago...
http://www.lwplugindb.com/Plugin.aspx?id=55278d60

had it's own camera view window, but still, was pretty promising...

MiniMo was made that way because it was impossible to do it in any other way. If you compare MiniMo to what Hurley has done with his sculpt tool, you'll spot a huge difference between the implementations and that is essentially the proof in the pudding; things have changed since the days of MiniMo.

erikals
08-11-2012, 04:33 PM
yes, hope NT takes it further... :]

testing some smartskin stuff now by the way, using a weightmap.
an interesting alternative to editing endomorphs...

related tools are tools that needs care though >

weight painting in Layout / tweaking points in Layout...